The End of More: Norman Pagett Part 4

gc2smlogopodcastOff the microphones of Norman Pagett, Monsta & RE

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Aired on the Doomstead Diner on September 17, 2015

End_of_More

Discuss this Interview at the Podcast Table inside the Diner

Our 4th and Final Part of our discussion with Norman Pagett of the oncoming Collapse of Industrial Civilization.  Of the 4 parts, this one is my personal favorite.

Snippet:

Hello and welcome to another edition of the Collapse Cafe here at the Doomsday Diner.   Today I'm joined by guest Norman Pagett and my co-host, RE.  In this final segment of the podcast, we will cover the likely reactions of the public when confronted with reality to collapse and what would be the typical response and problems of tackling collapse type topics wwith close loved ones in the difficulty of conveying these messages to people, particularly the younger generation We will also explore how Norman first became aware of the predicaments that will confront this all in the coming years. now one of the problems. that springs to mind and its actuallysomething that was raised by Nate Hagens a few years back is that one of the major issues we face is not merely a shortage of energy, although that will be a major issue in itself but a longage of expectations. Can you elaborate on your points about the implications of greater expectations that are not in touch with the realities of life Norman…

48 Responses to The End of More: Norman Pagett Part 4

  • tagio says:

    Great series with Norman, guys. I like #4 the best, but that's just me. Norman's got a great perspective.  I hope he remains a regular panelist on the doomcasts.

     

    • RE says:

      My favorite also, and Norman also thought it was the best of the bunch.

      Hopefully he can show up for the vidcasts.  I'm going to try to get one out in October.  That will make a full 12 months in a row, one every month. 

      RE

  • Interesting discussion, although to me the most interesting points were the relatively recent dates that are discussed regarding the "wake up calls" for those participating in that discussion. PERSONALLY, I cannot remember a time when I did not already believe that the world was controlled by bullies and bullshit, and while one did not have to believe in their bullshit, one still had to be consider their ability to be bullies. I can date my recognitions of the problems respecting "collapse" back to about 1964, when I was 14. I looked at a Time Magazine graph which predicted future human population growth. After thinking about that graph, I indepenedently rediscovered the "Malthusian Dilemma," although I never learned anything about the intellectual history of those concerns for several more years …

    Of course, I read the "Limits to Growth" book when it first came out, as well as remember reading the paperback versions of "Future Shock." Moreover, when I was going to university in the 1970s, I eventually took courses upon "futurology" which made a full meal deal of the trends that were leading towards the crazy collapse of civilization. Since the early 1980s, I was became active in attempting to make political changes. However, my actual political experiments only proved, over and over again, that there were NO reasonable ways to overcome the situation that governments were arrogantly dishonest, and the courts appointed by those courts were mostly corrupt, while the vast majority of people continued to act like incomptent political idiots. Therefore, from my point of view, the "expectations" that I had were never surprised by systems of electronic frauds, backed by atomic bombs, automatically getting worse, faster, at an exponential rate …

    (One thing that has changed in my opinions is that authorities like Suspicious0bservers have enabled me to believe that we are relatively getting a "lucky break" from changes in the Sun/Earth magnetic fields from the otherwise predicted runaway exponential feedbacks of greenhouse gas mechanisms. I now believe that those greenhouse gas mechanisms, and their consequences, will return with a vengence later, however, for a while, we are getting a "lucky break" from more cosmic factors postponing that.)

    I recently repeated my views, under this article:

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-09-17/heres-why-status-quo-doomed

    Here's Why The Status Quo Is Doomed

    The problem is the Status Quo only works in a world with plenty of room to expand … The world optimized for growth begins with little or no debt. … & … is also optimized for banks and central states. … The Status Quo has been optimized for this world of limitless growth. There's one tiny little problem with this: the real world has limits, and so does the financial world of debt, interest and taxes. … when the world the Status Quo has been optimized to exploit can no longer expand, the Status Quo doesn't just slow–it implodes. … The system is not just optimized for growth, it is entirely dependent on expansion of everything for its survival. … The Status Quo that is completely dependent on growth is doomed–an implosion that no amount of reform can stave off.

    OF COURSE, SINCE I AM ALREADY ~65 YEARS OLD,
    THEN A TIME HORIZON OF 20 YEARS TO COLLAPSE,
    ESPECIALLY IN CANADA, MEANS THAT I PROBABLY
    WILL ALREADY BE DEAD, BEFORE THINGS GO BAD.

    • RE says:

      Yah, those of us who are past 50 or so in the main 1st World nations may be fortunate enough to Buy the Ticket to the Great Beyond before things get really ugly in these places, like they are today already in Syria, Greece, Nigeria, Libya et al.  Even if we don't buy the ticket from natural causes we're unlikely to survive the early spin down phase.  The real ADVENTURE  ahead is for the 40-somethings and below.  Our adventure was living through the period of the blowoff phase, and if you were able to maintain a "middle class" lifestyle through this period you had great opportunties for Adventure and Experience, in relative safety.  I rode those same trains today's Syrian Refugees are trying to take from Hungary to Germany, wth a backpack on my back, a french bread and cheese inside and a couple of cute Swedish girls sitting next to me.  I sailed around those Greek Islands that the refugees are trying to make it to in Inflatables.

      The adventures ahead for the younger folks will not be so safe.  They will be interesting though, that is for sure.

      RE

      • Me too, I was lucky to have great adventures when I was younger.

        (A lot of those were very dangerous, because I wanted to do that.)

        However, younger people are NOT going to have good choices.

      • Liam says:

        RE

        I am relatively new to the idea of Collapse, realized it in 2012, and as an Irish person in his early 20s whose family grows vegetables in the back garden in a small commute town, I wanted to ask if there was a point where not even Ireland would be able to adapt to the coming collapse. I ask because I noticed that you guys have projected a rather optimistic timeframe for society to collapse (10 to 15), but after reading Gail Tverberg's blog, I have had doubts about that timeframe and the ability of places to adapt and become more simple and sustainable because of the issues surrounding the refugee crisis and Climate Change. I used to have a vision of places here being able to adapt and operate on a more community level because Ireland has more arable land and a lower population (4 million people), but recently, I have had doubts and although the podcasts give me hope, if even because the large timeframe gives time to cope with the situation and live life as it is now, the quick collapse proposed by others is more concerning. 

        • Etyerepetyere says:

          Ireland ?! You kidding !? Just think potato famine ! You are going down with the first plant pest way way way wors than back in those days . The population almost tripled since .  

          • RE says:

            3X is a whole lot better than the 30X the Saudis ballooned up to.  Ireland will have a dieoff, but by percentage nowhere near what the Saudis face.

            RE
             

        • RE says:

          The Timeline issue is the biggest bear, and most of us agree the Near Term problem is the monetary system.  This is going to crack first, and the fallout from that is enormous.

          However, there will be adaptation to that, just as there was adaptation after the collapse of the Roman Empire.  We just don't know exactly what that adaptation will be, and it's not going to be the same everywhere.  About the only thing certain in that one is the Big Shities are TOAST.

          Ireland may do OK, being an Island gives you a certain amount of insulaton from what goes on on the continents.  Population density is not too bad there either I don't think.  Besides growing vegetables in your garden though, it is important to start forming Community and develop strategies for working together as a group.  That's the hardest thing to do.

          RE
           

          • Liam says:

            Thanks, I do have faith in the general community to form together and prepare for the coming crisis. My main fear though is the violence that could ensue once oil supplies begin to drop on par with Gail Tverberg's predictions. 

  • Liam says:

    Excellent discussion, my only criticism is that I feel that the timeline for 10 to 15 years for shelves to go empty in first world nations is a bit too conservative, especially when Gail Tverberg's blog, "Our Finite World" talks about a deflationary collapse that would lead to the shelves going empty in perhaps maybe a month or six months to a year or two. 

    • I think the 10-15 year timeline might be conservative too, but I try to generalise this stuff where possible.

      things could go down next month, but unlikely, our living environment might stretch into the next 30 years, but that is equally unlikely, so I try to find a ''reasonable'' middle ground, based on factors we are fairly sure about. But that still leaves a lot of uncertainties.

      Looked at from another perspective, as a Syrian refugee for instance with your home , job and neighbourhood blown to bits, your end time is now, because the environment you left is not going to get rebuilt, and restore your living security. Your means of survival has gone, you can now only live on handouts for the forseeable future for as long as others can provide those handouts

      Again, if you're a Kalahari bushman, you never had any 'lifestyle' to go down anyway, so won't feel much different, probabably be better off and safer from the predations of the white man.

      to get back our own living environment, any one of a number of factors could crash it, all that we depend on is ultimately fragile, and increasingly so as constraints on food energy and population tighten more and more. In my book I have called those factors the Triumvirate of Chaos, and made that the first chapter in section one, because they are critical on a global scale— excess stress on one is certain to exacerbate problems the other two. Having said that, it is impossible to know which will go down first, or when. 

      The unknown unknown could come out of the unknown tomorrow.

      • Liam says:

        Thanks for expanding on your opinion and I agree that we are one.black swan event away from total collapse, but, like you said, some Will do.better than others, especially those in underpopulated areas.

    • Liam

      as a regular visitor to Ireland —a real eireophile–I 've come to look on it lately as a huge farm surrounded by a moat full of fish and full of friendly people.

      just about the best place to be I'd say

  • Linda says:

    I am a younger, 28, listener but unfortunately many in my own age cannot live a normal life if they admit to the energy predicament (and its logical conclusion – collapse) since they would only become depressed (like I was for some time). Even I, who live in Sweden which is a fairly progressive country, see the unwillingness to discuss these issues with the unknowing debt-addicted public that have gone from social democratic values to now start voting for the xenophobic sweden democrats. People just dont understand that we have a resource problem, or they think tesla cars or wind mills will save the day, even the most prominent environmental scientists seem to be delusional. If Sweden cannot change for the better, I have very little faith that other countries will. A prominent historian Timothy Snyder says he is seing signs that are comparabe to what happened at the start of the second world war. That scares me, a lot.

  • Linda says:

    Btw, great podcast! Well, the last opinion poll shows that the Sweden democrats might become the largest political party next election and the anti-immigration sentiment is growing. But the country is divided, especially between country side and city folk. Also our politicians are losing trust fast because they ignore the fundamental problems, like energy and what to do about our food import dependence on Europe. In my neighbourhood people tend to trust media way to much, so if media reports about a problem then it also shows up in the statistics about what people worry about. I also think one problem is that Sweden didn't crash in 2008 like many othe countries, mainly due to Privat sector debt driving the conomy ( now at 252% of GDP) so people don't we the urgency of our situation or that we have a massive housing bubble. On the other hand, we have 28% of youth uneployment. So think it's the old people standing in the way of change while most young people want to see change. 

    • RE says:

      Yes, but is it "Change we Can Believe In?"  We did this one already here with Obama-sama.  Epic FAIL.  Is the younger demographic Pro or Con on more immigration?

      Do you think Sweden will shut it's borders within the next say 2 years?

      RE

  • Linda says:

    Well yes, i dont mean change like techno fantasy land, but rather localisation and more local democracy which is possible. But yes i agree that there is a lot of empty rethoric and that there are no easy fixes. I meant no offence to older folks, haha. Well I think younger people are both pro and con but more pro than the 50+ year olds because of growing up in a mix of peoples, which is a rather new phenomena in Sweden (since 1980s). The older generation is more openly racist at least. I think there might be restrictions (refugees before other immigrants) to immigration since we take a lot of people (most in the EU). I don't think they will close the border completely within 2 years, but after 2018 when next election is perhaps. If nothing major happens that can get rid of the ruling  centre-left. The problem, of course, is that the more people we help and allow to immigrate now will only increase the likelihood of the Sweden democrats being elected. So there is a lack of pragmatism due to political correctness that ultimately will undo the left. Unfortunately. 

    • RE says:

      Well, one factor is being so far north with so many countries in between, logistically it will just be much more difficult for refgees to even GET to Sweden.  Even if Sweden keeps its borders open, the Hungarians and Austrians are unlikely to.

      The generational divide on attitudes is interesting, but not unexpected.  However I expect high unemployment rates amongst the youth will eventually create negative sentiment for newcomers competing for jobs.

      What about the religious aspect?  Much anti-Muslim sentiment?

      RE

      • Etyerepetyere says:

        The Mussulmans have this idea that they can take over the world and establish a worldwide caliphate where they will rule with sharia and all be dandy since it is a godsend system . It s a delusion only but a dangerous one . They operate on a breeding race base their method is outbreed  white folks on the white folks turf .. That's the strategy they could think of only since they lack the intellectual capacity for anything else . They have no idea of climate change of peak oil or anything else on the agenda here what makes their stupid plan irrelevant . It is a just a little childish pathetic try they run under . Clueless morons . Their culture is is backward twisted and outdated . That's why they can only come up with stupid ideas like this . It will fizzle out . If things turn ugly europe will stand up and expel them . No  Worry 

        • RE says:

          Expel them to WHERE precisely?  The countries they came from won't be taking them back, they can't feed the population they currently have, that is why they are LEAVING!  Many of the ones who migrated previously are 2nd and even 3rd generation.  They have never even been to the place their grandparents migrated from.

          So tell me, how is this "expulsion" going to work exactly?

          RE

          • Etyerepetyere says:

            Not to long ago there was a little guy  with a broom mustache showing the way .. Make no mistakes if it comes push to shove thats what is going to happen and not only in one country but all over the place . These Hungarians being bashed for their immigration and migrant politics right now but remember europe and the rest of western civilisation that in the 1500ds the same folks stud up and resisted the onslaught of the ottoman empire and its mussulman hordes taking over europe securing that the west was not overrun and could develop and maintain a western stile existence with all the progress the renaissance but also the roman and greek ancient cultures have developed in science art medicine law etc . Although the hungarians bleed doing this they assured that the rest of europe was retained and could develop further after 150 years of partial occupation they rose and expelled the Ottoman empire cleaning the european space . Thank them that wherever you are right now you can enjoy a western style democracy and mental sphere .That was only one small country (although a feisty one ) who fought this mussulman sump  now imagine all europe will be standing up against them .. And it will happen . There is going to be some trigger event and there will be several Hitlers arising again in several european country and clearing out this debris  out of europe  just wait .  The Russians are leading the way they have realised this already and taking a hard line position already on this issue 

          • RE says:

            So you are not talking about expulsion, you are talking about extermination.

            In 2010, the estimated population of Muslims in europe was 44M.  If they start such an extermination program, it certainly will not be a secret, and instead of refugees at the border there will be an army knocking at the Gates of Vienna.

            They will need more than 300 Spartans to turn it back.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdNn5TZu6R8

            RE

          • Etyerepetyere says:

            I immagine .. A martial law style of dealing with the mussulmans in europe . A martial law declaration; Either compliance with orders i.e. You keep peace order or you will be shot on the spot in case of noncompliance / I can also immagine all europe under a lockdown using nato forces on those border areas like Greece and the mediterranian and envisioning cattletrain full of them unruly mussulman hordes being repatriated outside of them defended lines .. This of course when the civilized world goes into full  organized survival mode due to diminished ressources and food availability . Thats when political correctness and civil law will be trown out in exchange of the very survival .  You see this is where these mussulman hordes have actually no clue what they are trying to achive is impossible since none of them has any clue that there are way bigger issues with the world and its working than they can fathome .. You see there are no mussulman doomers . I am sure no mussulman ever read ever  one article on this website  . This is way beyond their scope since  they have only basic  primitive agendas . Procreating, finding security in surviving in numbers ,and all that primal instinctual behavior higher primates are also preoccupied with . This Koran and religion is just some basic manual to carry out these primitive agendas . It is like a "Procreation and survival for Dummies" Thats why they are so offended when sombody is insulting their stupid Mohamed . Is has no substance . One little offense and it crumbles so they have to defend it outright .. it is all primitive behavior .  Thats all it is to it . 

          • Etyerepetyere says:

            Freshly arrived Mussulman Hordes introducing themselves In sweden https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=65&v=Xd2vzCS2I-k

          • RE says:

            That argument is so full of holes it's like swiss cheese.

            i won't pursue this any further in the blog commentariat.  If you want to go mano a mano with me on this, it will have to be inside the Diner.

            RE

        • Etyerepetyere says:

          Swiss Cheese ?! And it`s 1000 variety`s another sophisticated culinary delight brought to you by a 2000 year old culture ripened to perfection by all the  stiving of  these millenia struggle to make life a more pleasant experience to the good for all who had the will and put in the effort thru hard work , art ,science or even blood to make it better sure something  one can discuss how this can be faced up to the mussulman hordes social religious and material constructs they provided the world with .. Just an example .. Did you know that 450 million people in the MENA countries have only the equivalent of the economical output of the benelux states namely Belgium the Netherland and Luxemburg ?! Three small european countries produce more than almost a half a billion Mussulman minus the oil of course ….. Well i guess they had to come up with the equivalent of the swiss cheese sort of  Except that oil is not coming out of the ground by virtue but by a lucky shot provided by nature .. What do you want here Mano to mano …Oh this is a joke .. i got it  reminds me a scene from "The Big Lebowsky" The big guy boasting about his imagined encounters with vietnamese fighters on the bowling court .. and it all was just a boasting with no substance to it . Kind of a John Kerry swiftboat story 

          • Daddio7 says:

            Have you seen the movie "Brazil"? Muslims love their C4. There are blond Bosnian Muslims so profiling for Arabs won't work. Get ready for a lot of security theater and avoid crowds.

  • Linda says:

    Most people are atheist or protestant but we have small muslim and jewish communities too. People are tolerant but not in regards to mixing religion and politics. I know there has been some attacks on mosques and with all the media hype about ISIS and the attack on Charlie Hedbo people are getting more intolerant, and probably more so towards muslims. However, since all the media is dominated by the cultural elite and left-wingers you will read one thing in the paper "about the ever tolerant Swede" (a hipster in södermalm) while in reality people are getting more nervous and unsure of their identity and thus projecting their anger at "the other". There are big debates regarding beggers in the streets, but these people are mostly from romania. Its really in the big suburbs of Stockholm, Göteborg, and Malmö that you see tensions escalating, mainly between the police and second generation immigrants. Some regions have become more lawless since police refuse to enter. A bit like Paris and London I guess, but smaller in scale. Religion is not such a big part of discussions, even if we do have christian democrat party.

    • RE says:

      What is the ratio of native Swedes to immigrants?

      RE

      • Linda says:

        Stats for 2014 show 1.6 million people being non-natives out of 9.6 million people in total population, about 16%. Last year most of the immigrants came from Syria. But read how some immigrants are trying to get to Germany from here because they dont like our integration. A bit ungrateful one might think, guess some people are less desperate than others.

  • Mountain Hiker says:

    Thank you for posting this interview. I enjoyed it!

    I completely agree with what was said about people's expectations, especially as it concerns Americans. In general, people in the U.S. have this idea in their head that they have real control over their lives. Americans have no patience for, or ability to cope with, unknown variables that interrupt their daily plans. If you want to see rage in America, just inconvenience commuters on their way to their oh-so-important jobs in the morning. We already know how Americans cope with lines to get gasoline (how dare natural limits interfere with their expectations?). Wait until they are lining up for food or water.

    Dmitry Orlov has predicted that many people in the upper and middle classes will commit suicide as this system unravels. Once they are used to flying first class, going to coach with the barbarians is just too intolerable to bear. I have to agree with his assessment. However, I also believe there will be many people who take out their anger, disappointment and rage on the usual suspects (anyone different than themselves) before suicide becomes their fate. I agree with RE that a long campout to avoid this emotional release process with be vital to long term survival.

    I don’t know about the other Diners here, but can’t you just feel the tension in the air these days as we head into fall? The spring has wound so tight I swear I can hear it singing in the breeze. Good luck to all Diners in the days to come.

    • I don't think the majority of people have the necessary survival skills for a long campout.

      The idea of it might appeal of course, but personally I think the only benefit of it, on a mass scale, would be to solve the population problem

      • Mountain Hiker says:

        I agree with you on that Norman. A lot of those wacky concepts outside of the "control your own destiny" ideology of the urban and suburban U.S. like luck, being in the right (or wrong) place at the right (or wrong) time, and following your gut feeling will play a huge role in who walks or crawls out the other side of this experience. Mental preparedness is as vital as physical preparedness.

        I know for a fact that a long campout is well beyond the means or desire of most people. While I could outfit a small Boy Scout troop with my camping gear, I know several people who couldn't comprehend spending a single cold night in a tent, let alone 6 months or more. Hell, I may not be up for the task myself when feeding yourself becomes an issue and you can't just run into a store in town for additional supplies. Add in roving bands of hungry, angry people or warlord scouting parties and it starts looking like being one of the handful of survivors in The Walking Dead.

        The variables are nearly impossible to calculate, especially when I consider the large numbers of people who have never known true hardship getting their asses handed to them. Their reactions at the street level where it’s personal to me or you are where things could get really dicey, let alone the large institutions doing all in their power to stay alive and ‘profitable’. Add in the felt need of some institutions to project an illusion of control to the angry hoards and the maze gets even more complex. Still, there likely will be some places that barely notice the transformation, except for some stragglers who may wander into their part of the world looking for refuge. Adaptability will be key and even then it may come down to a coin flip. Such is life as we approach the post-industrial world.

      • Liam says:

        Why go on a camp out? If one lives in a small town, it could be possible get through the post industrial age, the only real problem would be climate change and gangs, but that doesn’t mean that peep couldn’t work on a community level.

        • the main problem with  any town (are we talking say 10000 people?) is the acreage needed to feed its people, and probably keep them warm as well.

          I'm no agriculturalist, but my guess for that would be an acre or two each, dependent on latitude, soil, and so on–so around 20000 acres to be subsistent in food heat and water (remember you eventually have to grow timber for shelter as well as heat) Bear in mind that in medieval times—which is the period relevant to this line of thinking, 10000 inhabitants made up a pretty big town, simply because towns bigger than that were difficult to sustain

          • RE says:

            You can do it on much less than 1 acre/person with Hydroponics.  1000 sq ft per person is more than enough.

            In any event, 10,000 acres up here is chump change.  Any decent valley here is 100,000 acres at least.

            RE

      • RE says:

        I know numerous people who can survive the Long Campout, particularly if you have cached food supplies.  Even without that I know a few people who spend a full year in the bush between trips back to "civilization".  Before I became a cripple, I spent 3 weeks holed up in a snow cave when the mushers I went out with got stuck in a blizzard.  3 guys and a dozen dogs in a snow cave for 3 weeks is not fun exactly but it is a lesson in how resilient you can be if you are determined enough and HEALTHY enough.

        This is ALASKA Norman.  It's not the same as the UK at all.

        It could be done in the Lower 48 also, but I know it is not as common down there for people to practice this stuff.  It does take practice.

        RE

  • Mountain Hiker says:

    I'm in Colorado, RE, and I am certain there are quite a few folks here who could weather some serious long-range camping too. Lots of mountain retreats, hunting cabins, forests, etc… A lot of these retreats only have people in them a few weeks in the summer. The problem I see for most people who own these places is getting to them from their east and west coast homes. Then, even if they do arrive who's to say some local hasn't already settled in? Current rules of ownership, rights and economic hierarchy will no longer apply. You can also bet that the folks who already live deep in the mountains are going to blow bridges or take out tunnels to keep the escaping hoards at bay. Even if the original owners get to the Front Range, getting further could be a very complicated task.

    The one consistent thread I see through all of these comments is little to no faith in the decency or humanity of our fellow denizens. Looks like the mental preparedness aspects of the collapse are well under way by the Diners!  Although I’ve had little faith in them for decades, an experience I am sure to share with many fellow Diners.

  • I take your points about USA/Alaska, obviously with bigger spaces you have bigger options. I thought that when I was writing my comments

    But my thinking was also  UK/Europe based, with generally more people and less space. As to the 2 acres, I was also considering full support, rather than just food. If you move into a hunter-gatherer lifestyle, then hunting in particular is harvesting energy from a vast area, not your 1000 sq ft of cultivated garden. If you cut firewood, the same applies. I also made the point that latitude, soil type, weather etc plays a massive role in this kind if thinking. You also have to get past the 2nd harvest, not the first. Young, healthy people will be able to do this, I fear that most will not. Gun ownerhip here is tightly regulated, which is an important factor

    We also have that 'holiday homes' problem. Where locals are simply priced out of the property market by rich city dwellers. I know of entire villages in 'pretty places' in the UK where there are no local residents at all. I leave it to your imagination as to what will happen there when SHTF.

    Here in UK, there just isn't the space to go anywhere. It is practically impossible to be out of sight of other human habitation. The places where you can, grow sheep; practically nothing else.

    As to the decency of my fellow man, You only have to look at the migration crisis here in Europe. Yes, 000s of migrants are being offered sanctuary, but only for so long as we have the resources to do it. Migrants are already fighting among themselves at crossing points according to their origins—Syrians, Pakistanis, Somalis and so on, traffickers are making fortunes out of drowning people. Groups established here in UK for decades segregate themselves voluntarily, we won't go into the problems that arise when intermarrying is attempted!  Already borders are being closed by panicking governments, suddenly becoming aware that people flow is virtually endless, and that existing cultures are going to be overrun. Once migrants become settled, the demand will be for more 'human rights' , and more access for those not yet arrived.

    But already the UK has to import a third of its food. We pay for it by trade, which is ultimately underpinned by oil which is itself fast depleting.

    What an interesting future we can look forward to!!

    • RE says:

      Fortunately, there won't be many migrants walking from Canada across the Yukon Territory to get to Alaska.  You pretty much need a plane or ferry ticket and a passport and visa to get here.

      Of course, we could get flooded with water refugees from California coming up by the Cruise Ship and Ferry full.

      RE

    • Etyerepetyere says:

      What do you mean by "the problems that arise when intermarrying is attempted" Is also that some sort of a pressing  issue here ? i am curious  

  • We have a problem in UK concerning honour killings, where an errant daughter is murdered or beaten by her family for any ''involvement'' with anyone outside their race, religion, caste or whatever

    I can only suggest you google 'honour killings uk' and select from lots of material. or FGM..another practice abhorrent to civilised western culture

    It doesn't make for very pleasant reading

  • think i'll stick to climate change or whatever and leave this thread

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Quote from: Cam on Today at 08:14:16 AMQuote from: Eddie on Today at 08:10:11 AMReally good coverage on all the COVID stuff. You should go mainstream with the Surly Report.I agre...

I know I went walkabout, so I assume that Eddie's comment about Diner's being Marxist doesn't apply to me.  I've changed a good bit in the last few years.  What I'll say is that "from each according to ability and to each according to need," which I u...

The fellow who is selling this tank -- https://santafe.craigslist.org/grd/7104828046.html -- says it is/was an old water pressure tank, and estimates it would hold 300-400 gallons of water if converted into a simple, gravity fed roof water catchment ta...

Quote from: Cam on Today at 08:31:09 AMQuoteFor me, seeds are pure magic and condensed love-joy, containing sunlight.And, for me, evolutionary biology will provide a partial answer to your question about why seeds ar...

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Knarf’s Knewz

Quote from: Eddie on April 07, 2020, 07:15:26 PM L [...]

 Llamas are pack animals. The Dalai kind of Lama o [...]

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Quote from: edpell on Today at 05:07:53 PM2% is no [...]

2% is not a high percentage. [...]

Quote from: Cam on Today at 08:14:16 AMQuote from: [...]

Quote from: Eddie on Today at 08:10:11 AMReally go [...]

Quote from: UnhingedBecauseLucid on March 18, 2019 [...]

CleanTechnicaSupport CleanTechnica’s work via dona [...]

QuoteThe FACT that the current incredibly STUPID e [...]

Quote from: Eddie on April 07, 2020, 07:15:26 PM L [...]

 Llamas are pack animals. The Dalai kind of Lama o [...]

Quote from: Eddie on April 07, 2020, 04:59:05 AMQu [...]

Quote from: knarf on April 07, 2020, 12:45:09 AMI [...]

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Quote from: K-Dog on February 24, 2020, 06:23:52 P [...]

I wonder how much these coins have been debased? [...]

Precious tip of the day.....Buy silver NOW  She [...]

Scientists have unlocked the power of gold atoms b [...]

Quote from: azozeo on August 14, 2019, 10:41:33 AM [...]

Quote from: Nearingsfault on March 27, 2020, 05:03 [...]

Quote from: RE on March 27, 2020, 04:47:17 AMLast [...]

Last time I checked just a couple of days ago, the [...]

Alternate Perspectives
  • Two Ice Floes
  • Jumping Jack Flash
  • From Filmers to Farmers

Lies, Damn Lies and Coronavirus Statistics By Cognitive Dissonance     “Never believe anything in po [...]

The Decline and Fall of Civil Society Chapter One By Cognitive Dissonance     From my perspective at [...]

Missing In Action By Cognitive Dissonance     As a very young pup, whenever I was overdue and not ho [...]

Politicians’ Privilege By Cognitive Dissonance     Imagine for a moment you work for a small or medi [...]

Shaking the August Stick By Cognitive Dissonance     Sometime towards the end of the third or fourth [...]

Event Update For 2020-04-06http://jumpingjackflashhypothesis.blogspot.com/2012/02/jumping-jack-flash-hypothesis-its-gas.htmlThe [...]

Event Update For 2020-04-05http://jumpingjackflashhypothesis.blogspot.com/2012/02/jumping-jack-flash-hypothesis-its-gas.htmlThe [...]

Event Update For 2020-04-04http://jumpingjackflashhypothesis.blogspot.com/2012/02/jumping-jack-flash-hypothesis-its-gas.htmlThe [...]

Event Update For 2020-04-03http://jumpingjackflashhypothesis.blogspot.com/2012/02/jumping-jack-flash-hypothesis-its-gas.htmlThe [...]

Event Update For 2020-04-02http://jumpingjackflashhypothesis.blogspot.com/2012/02/jumping-jack-flash-hypothesis-its-gas.htmlThe [...]

With fusion energy perpetually 20 years away we now also perpetually have [fill in the blank] years [...]

My mea culpa for having inadvertently neglected FF2F for so long, and an update on the upcoming post [...]

NYC plans to undertake the swindle of the civilisation by suing the companies that have enabled it t [...]

MbS, the personification of the age-old pre-revolutionary scenario in which an expiring regime attem [...]

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Sustainability
  • Peak Surfer
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The Great Pause, Week Two"Speculation, geomancy, and fantastical myth-making need to step aside for the moment, please. [...]

The Great Pause Week One"A pod of dolphins rose and dove, then in pairs leaped high in the air, or walked on water with [...]

The Great Pause"While we can never fully go back, with enough people trying, something approaching normalcy wi [...]

We Need a Manhattan Project for the Climate"We could call the IPCC reports our modern Einstein letters. They are arriving to the Resolute [...]

Sorry, climate change is not about water"What can be effective is producing real-world changes in the short time remaining."We are [...]

The folks at Windward have been doing great work at living sustainably for many years now.  Part of [...]

 The Daily SUN☼ Building a Better Tomorrow by Sustaining Universal Needs April 3, 2017 Powering Down [...]

Off the keyboard of Bob Montgomery Follow us on Twitter @doomstead666 Friend us on Facebook Publishe [...]

Visit SUN on Facebook Here [...]

What extinction crisis? Believe it or not, there are still climate science deniers out there. And th [...]

My new book, Abolish Oil Now, will talk about why the climate movement has failed and what we can do [...]

A new climate protest movement out of the UK has taken Europe by storm and made governments sit down [...]

The success of Apollo 11 flipped the American public from skeptics to fans. The climate movement nee [...]

Today's movement to abolish fossil fuels can learn from two different paths that the British an [...]

Top Commentariats
  • Our Finite World
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In reply to Dennis L.. I dream resilient comunity from years. In blog of irv. But never was possible [...]

In reply to Gail Tverberg. when you make a journey--it can only have 2 purposes 1 employment (that a [...]

I came down with the flu 9 weeks ago. I had strong symptoms for 3 weeks and then another 6 weeks wit [...]

In reply to beidawei. Adult mythology? I've already the Corona fever...so I'll pass. [...]

In reply to worldofhanumanotg. Here in New Zealand, the impression I get is that most people see the [...]

On a related note, this is a good article: https://mronline.org/2020/04/04/why-coronavirus-could-spa [...]

@Ellen, from a my (atheist) perspective the original meaning of that story is that Eve is both the m [...]

@bb Do you think that Adam should have refused that apple? After all, it came from the devil via a w [...]

Yeah the problem is reason/knowledge in the service of un-reason, not so much reason itself. Or even [...]

["Humans are experts: our 5,000 year history is marked by follies and missed opportunities, war [...]

RE Economics

Going Cashless

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Simplifying the Final Countdown

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Bond Market Collapse and the Banning of Cash

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Do Central Bankers Recognize there is NO GROWTH?

Discuss this article @ the ECONOMICS TABLE inside the...

Singularity of the Dollar

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Kurrency Kollapse: To Print or Not To Print?

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SWISSIE CAPITULATION!

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Of Heat Sinks & Debt Sinks: A Thermodynamic View of Money

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Merry Doomy Christmas

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Peak Customers: The Final Liquidation Sale

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Collapse Fiction
Useful Links
Technical Journals

The current linear economic system has led Europe to unsustainable development, aggravating several [...]

The Arabian Gulf is one of the regions in the world experiencing major changes due to increased econ [...]

I address 12 issues related to the study of ocean dynamics and its impact on global temperature chan [...]

This study aimed to assess the interrelationship among extreme natural events and their impacts on e [...]

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