Let Nature be Nature

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Published on Peak Surfer on May 29, 2016


Discuss this article at the Environment Table inside the Diner


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"Can the extravagance of growth fanatics continue? Clearly not. Will President @realdonaldtrump keep the lemmings racing towards the cliff? Definitely so."



!Kung peoples managed their energy well – C.A.S. Hall

  After posting a pretty dour outlook last week we were amazed to watch it attract more page views more quickly than any of our previous 22 posts this year. No accounting for taste, we suppose.

At the risk of alienating our new audience right off the bat, we are posting something more upbeat this week.

We had two scientific papers shoved under our door, and both of are serious sources of hope for a world undergoing climate shock. They represent the two sides of the solution ledger, adaptation and mitigation.

The first is an open research white paper, The Sower’s Way: Quantifying the Narrowing Net-Energy Pathways to a Global Energy Transition, by Sgouris Sgouridis and Denes Csala of the Masdar Institute of Science and Technology, United Arab Emirates, and Ugo Bardi from the Department of Earth Sciences at the University of Florence, Italy.




Hubbard Linearization – Courtesy C.A.S. Hall

The second is a journal article, published under a creative commons license in Science Advances 2016, entitled Carbon sequestration potential of second-growth forest regeneration in the Latin American tropics by 60 co-authors at 45 institutions in almost as many countries. The lead author is Robin L. Chazdon, a professor of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology at the University of Connecticut and a visiting professor at the International Institute for Sustainability in Rio de Janeiro.

In The Sower’s Way, Sqouridis’ group looks at the INDPs (national pledges) submitted at the Paris climate conference in December, sees that they are clearly inadequate to arrest runaway climate chaos and near term human extinction (NTHE)) and asks the pregnant question, suppose they weren’t?

Suppose the overarching goal set in Paris — to phase out fossil energy by 2050 or sooner — were actually committed to by all those who exchanged pens at the signing of the legally binding treaty last month at One UN Plaza?




The Energy Cliff – Courtesy C.A. Hall

“Is it possible to satisfy the dual constraint of reducing emissions fast enough while achieving the desired energy availability?” the authors ask.




“… [I]mplicit in the COP21 agreement is that these reductions should be obtained while offering sufficient available energy for humankind, especially for developing countries that are ascending the energy availability ladder.”

After completing the study, one of the authors, Ugo Bardi, conducted a poll on the Doomstead Diner   of how realistic most doomers thought the renewables revolution to be.



What is the possibility of a society not too different from ours (but 100% based on renewable energy sources, and on the possibility of obtaining it before it is too late to avoid the climate disaster. This said, what statement best describes your position?

  1. Courtesy C.A.S. Hall

    It is impossible for technical reasons. (Renewables have too low EROEIs, need too large amounts of natural resources, we'll run out of fossil fuels first, climate change will destroy us first, etc.)

  2. It is technically possible but so expensive to be unthinkable. 
  3. It is technically possible and not so expensive to be beyond our means. However, it is still expensive enough that most likely people will not want to pay the costs of the transition before it will be too late to achieve it, unless we move to a global emergency status.
  4. It is technically possible and inexpensive enough that it can be done smoothly, by means of targeted government intervention, such as a carbon tax.
  5. It is technically possible and technological progress will soon make it so inexpensive that normal market mechanisms will bring us there nearly effortlessly.

Our own response, after returning from Paris, was: "option 6 – it will be faster than anyone expects.” Our reasoning was that once the curves cross  — and solar is cheaper than oil — there will be a mad rush to dump oil stocks and buy solar, without any consideration of net energy. Simian neurobiology will then be buckled into the driver’s seat, chasing lost investments with fresh money until every last shekel is exhausted. In the end, there will be a lot of solar, wind, geothermal, and tidal energy to show for the effort but just not anything resembling the consumerist civilization most people now take for granted.

There will not be Space Cadet academies on Mars.

The Sqouridis paper concludes that “renewable energy installation rates should accelerate and increase at least by a factor of 50 and perhaps more than 90 over current” in order to meet the UN sustainable development goals. They conclude that growth rate is entirely possible and may already be in process. The key, they say, is “the sower's strategy”:


“… the long-established farming practice to save a fraction of the current year's harvest as seeds for the next. Fossil fuels produce no “seed” of their own but we can “sow” what these fuels provide: energy and minerals to create the capital needed for the transition. Yet, withdrawing the “seed” energy reduces net available energy for society. The challenge therefore is to balance energy availability and emissions in order to complete a renewable transition before fossil fuel depletion makes it impossible without inflicting crippling damages on the climate.”


Courtesy J.G. Lambert

Moreover, to be rated a success, the solar power transition has to meet three criteria:


  1. The impacts from energy use during the transition should not exceed the long-run ecosystem carrying and assimilation capacity;
  2. Per capita net available energy should remain above a level that satisfies societal needs at any point during transition and without disruptive discontinuities in its rate of change; and
  3. The rate of investment in building renewable energy harvesting and utilization capital stock should be sufficient to create a sustainable energy supply basis without exhausting the non-renewable safely recoverable resources.

The group concluded:



In every case, a successful SET (sustainable energy transition) consists of a sustained acceleration in the rate of investment in renewable energy of more than one order of magnitude within the next three decades following a trajectory dictated by the chosen fossil-fuel phase-out. A peak in installation rates, but not cumulative capacity, forms at the point where the rate of energy demand growth starts to slow down.

In other words, the group concluded that Option 6 was the most likely: it will be faster than anyone expects. At least 50 times faster than it is right now.




Courtesy C.A.S. Hall

Meanwhile the seminal bioeconomist Charles A. Hall reminded us:




There are three good studies — Mohr et al.'s 2012 (Ward, J., S.H. Mohr, B. Meyers and W. Nel. 2012. High estimates of supply constrained emissions scenarios for long-term climate risk assessment. Energy Policy 51: 598-604); Maggio and Cacciola (Maggio, G., and G. Cacciola. 2012 "When will oil, natural gas, and coal peak?" Fuel 98: 111-123); Laherrere's ASPO-France web page —  that agree that there is likely to be a peak in ALL fossil fuels in +/- 2025 and then a sharp decline. It seems extremely unlikely that renewables will fill that gap. On the other hand the near cessation of economic growth in OECD countries and the slowdown for China might smooth out and slow down our approach to the peak. 



Murphy and Hall, 2011

With that opening salvo, we can see Hall’s studies and raise a few more:

Leggetta, L.M.W. and D.A. Ball. 2012. The implication for climate change and peak fossil fuel of the continuation of the current trend in wind and solar energy production, Energy Policy 41: 610-617. doi:10.1016/j.enpol.2011.11.022:



Courtesy J.G. Lambert

Climate change, and more recently, the risk of fossil fuel production being unable to keep pace with demand (peak fossil fuel) are both considered as risks to civilisation, or global risks. In an initial empirical analysis, this paper attempts to answer the following questions, which have often been posed but have not, to our knowledge, been answered empirically at global level. At which date, if unaddressed, will the risks become critical? Given that the substitution of fossil fuels by wind and solar energy is often proposed as a solution to these problems, what is its current aggregate growth rate and is there a plausible future growth rate which would substitute it for fossil fuels before the risks become critical? The study finds that the peak fossil fuel risk will start to be critical by 2020. If however the future growth rate of wind and solar energy production follows that already achieved for the world mobile phone system or the Chinese National Expressway Network the peak fossil fuel risk can be prevented completely. For global warming, the same growth rate provides significant mitigation by reducing carbon dioxide emissions from fossil fuels to zero by the early 2030s.

Mohr, S.H., J. Wang, G. Ellem, J. Ward, and D. Giurco. 2015. Projection of world fossil fuels by country. Fuel 141: 120-135. doi:10.1016/j.fuel.2014.10.030:




We model world fossil fuel production by country including unconventional sources. The Low and Best Guess (BG) scenarios suggest that world fossil fuel production may peak before 2025 and decline rapidly thereafter. The High scenario indicates that fossil fuels may have a strong growth till 2025 followed by a plateau lasting approximately 50 years before declining. All three scenarios suggest that world coal production may peak before 2025 due to peaking Chinese production.



Courtesy C.A.S. Hall

Thus, whether lured by the carrot of a sun-powered future or frightened by the sound of the dip stick scraping the bottom of the oil pan, a Great Change is coming. But what is the shape of the curve? In comments to our last week’s post, reader Don Stewart wrote:

Harquebus, as quoted [on Ugo Bardi’s blog]:



“Whenever somebody with a decent grasp of maths and physics looks into the idea of a fully renewables-powered civilised future for the human race with a reasonably open mind, they normally come to the conclusion that it simply isn’t feasible.”

Stewart continues:




Courtesy C.A.S. Hall

We are completely convinced that the above statement is true, but that does not mean that renewables cannot be of significant use to modern society. It is not that they can replace fossil fuels, but they could considerably extend their useful life span. That could be as much as a century. At the world’s present consumption rate the oil age will be ending in 13 years, and society will have to pay a very high price to get it there. We are now witnessing the bankruptcy of the Petro-States,  and much of the Western world’s petroleum industry. Over the next five years it will become very apparent as to what is happening. Geothermal, wind, tidal power, small hydroelectric, and in some cases solar can replace much of the electricity production of the world — electricity that is now being supplied from our rapidly depleting fossil fuels.



Courtesy C.A.S. Hall

Of course clean electricity is not a substitute for fossil energy; nor are biofuels; nor are both in combination. Professor Hall recommends Alice Freidemann's new book When Trucks Stop Running for a fuller discussion of that issue. Friedemann blurbs:



Our era of abundance, and the freight transport system in particular, is predicated on the affordability and high energy density of a single fuel, oil. This book explores alternatives to this finite resource including other liquid fuels, truck and locomotive batteries and utility-scale energy storage technology, and various forms of renewable electricity to support electrified transport. Transportation also must adapt to other challenges: Threats from climate change, financial busts, supply-chain failure, and transportation infrastructure decay.

Hall, Friedemann and Stewart all raise a common point: assuming renewable energy was rolled out with adequate speed and with all the boost the last hours of ancient sunlight and fossil energy era technology can supply, is it enough? The answer to that question lies in our civic willingness to face limits, both to the size of the human population and to how much it consumes. Can the extravagance of growth fanatics continue? Clearly not. Will President @realdonaldtrump keep the lemmings racing towards the cliff? Definitely so.

Chazon’s 60 scientists looked at something entirely different. They asked the question, what if we let nature be nature? Would she recover? Would she do so in time? The answer, which is really quite shocking given what we presented here last week, is yes. We have only to step aside.

Chazon, et al, noticed that although deforestation in the world’s tropical regions, owing to expansion of cattle farming, urban sprawl and fire, continues to reduce overall forest cover, second-growth forests (SFs) are expanding in many deforested areas of Latin America. SFs emerge spontaneously in post-cultivation fallows, on abandoned farms and pastures, in the understory of ecological restoration plantings, and following assisted natural regeneration on private or communal lands. Given that there has been good satellite telemetry for more than 4 decades, Chazon’s group asked,




“What is the total predicted carbon storage potential of naturally regenerating forests over four decades across biomes and countries?”

The answer was “a lot.”

Only about 28% of the millions of hectares studied was second growth forest, but looking carefully at that part, the researchers concluded that if second-growth forests were permitted to recover, unaided by tree planting or other interventions, 8.48 gigaton of carbon would be net sequestered over 40 years just in the aboveground biomass. Calculating below ground carbon they say would add another 25% (although we think that is too low). Their number corresponds to a total sequestration of 31.09 Gt CO2, equivalent to emissions from fossil fuel use and industrial processes in all of Latin America and the Caribbean from 1993 to 2014.

Just imagine what could be achieved with the addition of step-harvesting of forest products and biochar from woody wastes — or if we just left alone the other 90 percent of the planet that would naturally revert to second-growth forest if were allowed to. In either of those scenarios, so much carbon would be sucked out of the atmosphere that Earth’s atmosphere could quickly recover to pre-industrial greenhouse gas levels in a time far short of 40 years.

Suicide is not the only option, as the volunteer on the other end of the hot line will tell you.

There are still choices.


8 Responses to Let Nature be Nature

  • Ken Barrows says:

    How can solar be cheaper than oil if oil is used to make solar?  The panels are cheap.  The inverter?  Not so much.

    • lracine says:

      The wires, the batteries, installation, charge controller…  now lets put a real carbon budget on these things and the on going maintaince….

      No it is NOT cheaper… what these boys are quoting are some bids that were soliciated in India for new generation…  these are the numbers of a bid acepted by the Indian Government (cost of solar) for projects that have YET to be built and COMMISSIONED and have YET to have an operating track record… ie it is all just talk and bullshit at this point….

      These people are looking at a light at the end of the tunnel… and have not yet realized that it might be a train…. it is just one more form of denial….  but it makes them feel good….

      IMO this is much more realistic… The Truth About Global Warming: Brutal Numbers, Tenuous Hope by Kevin Anderson


    • lracine says:

      Link to article in Solar Trade Mag hinting that the bid tarriff rates are NOT sustainable…..


      "But while the ministry is showing extreme positivity in public, some industry veterans appear alarmed. Even Jigar Shah, the well-known clean energy entrepreneur and co-founder of SunEdison, who leads specialist finance company Generate Capital, said in November that tariffs under six rupees in India make “no sense” and he called for the auction process to be scrapped."

  • I love it! The math works, and the high paid, corporately captured researchers look like geniuses. I wonder if they've cleared their findings with BP, Royal Dutch, the Russians and the Saudis/American oligarchs and the host of other well invested market makers who own a gazillion shares in the current energy industry.

    Funny, haven't heard a peep out the Donald or the Killary or the Berner regarding the desperate situation confronting the energy situation. Drilling down on the real issues surrounding fossil fuels is about as politically correct and career ending as is exposing the true workings of our unsustainable, criminal banking/monetary system. In both cases, IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!!! 

    The public for the most part, is MIA, clueless and too dumbed down to figure it out let alone do something about it. The controllers and their mascots will never bring down their milk cows until every last drop is squeezed out of every last orifice. Sure… they'll hype some new "GREEN" investment venture until the sucker money floods in and then they'll pull their cash before the whole bullshit venture implodes on itself. Why? Because the big money ventures will be gamed from the get-go by the bankers whose only motivation is to make fast bucks. How many investment bankers do you think studied, or are going study, the  above mentioned research documents featured in Bate's article? No need to answer,  the question was rhetorical.

    Oh well… it was an interesting article, thin salve for a third degree burn. There will be more of this sort of bluster and pontification as we slide ever faster down the backside of Hubbert's Curve. In the world of bureaucracy they call it CYA, cover your ass. I'll become less cynical about these research findings and their impact on our society when the researchers start putting their careers on the line. Say, calling out the bankers and the oil magnates and the industrialists. 

    And what do ya think the chances of that are? Once again, a rhetorical question.

  • The answer to that question lies in our civic willingness to face limits, both to the size of the human population and to how much it consumes.

    Endless exponential growth is absolutely impossible. New systems of human, industrial and natural ecologies are possible, however, by definition, their central core issues are the death control systems. Militarism is the supreme ideology of the murder systems, as the most extreme form of the general death control systems. That is the context in which one should consider the crucial questions regarding the "civic willingness to face limits."

    "Suicide is not the only option …"

    The only significant ways that the ruling classes have prepared for the limits to growth were to continue to drive the conditions towards more genocidal wars, along with more democidal martial law. Those sorts of "solutions" may well spin out of human control, to result in civilization committing collective suicide, at least to the degree that a technologically based civilization will not adapt enough to survive its own insanities. At the same time, those who were ruled over tended to not want to understand that, especially because there were no publicly significant opposition groups that were not also controlled to continue to think inside of the same frame of reference set up by the ruling classes, in order to operate sociopolitical systems based upon being able to enforce frauds, which systems were being operated by professional hypocrites.

    Generally speaking, the deeper problems with respect to attempting to develop any better evolutionary ecologies that respond to the limits to exponential growth is that those necessarily depend upon the death control systems, while the most socially successful death control systems developed throughout history to be those which were the most dishonest, deceitful and treacherous. Furthermore, AROUND & AROUND, the social successfulness achieved through those means also resulted in there being nothing which was publicly significant than controlled opposition groups, that stayed within the same frame of reference set up to enable professional hypocrites to continue operating systems actually based upon enforcing frauds, despite those becoming exponentially more fraudulent.

    Whenever one attempts to more rationally assess various creative alternatives, one should end up examining the murder systems. However, doing so generates intense paradoxes, which manifest as sets of consistent contradictions, because of the ways that the actually existing sociopolitical systems were energy systems that were already selected to become the most deceitful and fraudulent that was humanly possible. Although there are theoretically an abundance of creative alternatives, the necessary keystone to any arch of assembled alternatives, or the lynch pin to hold those component alternatives together in an overall coherent system, would necessarily be the death control systems, with the murder systems as the most extreme forms, at the central core of the controls of everything else.

    From an abstract point of view, it is ironic how various people attempt to rationally consider alternative energy systems, without engaging in a deeper analysis of the actually existing energy systems. THERE TENDS TO BE PROFOUND DELIBERATE IGNORANCE AND WILLFUL BLINDNESS TOWARDS THE HUMAN MURDER SYSTEMS, AS THE MOST EXTREME FORMS OF THE DEATH CONTROLS IN GENERAL. That did not happen by accident! Rather, the oldest and best developed forms of social science and engineering was warfare. However, the successfulness of warfare depended upon being deceitful and treacherous. Therefore, the most socially successful murder systems were the most dishonest, and furthermore, around those systems were the surrounding systems of controlled opposition, that agreed to maintain the same sets of basic dishonesties regarding the real death controls.

    Since civilization was necessarily controlled by its murder systems, and those became as dishonest as possible, the entire political economy became based upon enforcing frauds, primarily taking the form that public governments enforced frauds by private banks, which were making the public "money" supplies out of nothing as debts, in order to "pay" for strip-mining the planet's natural resources. The limits to growth are mostly due to the the exponentially increasing strip-mining of the planet, enabled by industrial revolutions, running into various frontiers of diminishing returns. Furthermore, that tends to be done through the previous exponential growth overshooting in spectacular ways …

    "Civic willingness to face limits" has to attempt to work through systems that are based upon enforcing frauds, operated by professional hypocrites. Therefore, "our" abilities to do that are practically as perversely inverted as possible, since the existing social pyramid systems were based upon being able to enforce frauds, which sociopolitical systems worked through the ruling classes becoming the best at backing up lies with violence, while those they ruled over survived by becoming ignorant and afraid. The prodigious progress in science has enabled those political systems to drive the development of the ruling classes to become increasingly psychotic psychopaths, while those they ruled over became increasingly impotent political idiots. Neither group is remotely close to any "civic willingness to face limits."

    The ruling classes have been covertly preparing for their kinds of "solutions" through genocides and democides. The only genuine alternatives would require different death control systems. However, since the actually existing death control systems are based upon the maximum possible dishonesties, and are operated through the maximum possible professional hypocrisies, there are no ways to develop better death control systems, other than perhaps as eventual adaptations to runaway death insanities. While I agree with the article above regarding the ways that exponential growth is set up to become exponentially more disruptive ("option 6 – it will be faster than anyone expects”), the primary manifestations of those phenomena will be runaway death insanities. That is what the ruling classes have actually prepared to do, while those they ruled over are mostly not prepared for anything else. Moreover, the only realistic resolutions of those real problems must be better death control systems in general. By definition, that is what must necessarily be the result of running into the limits to growth. However, the overall "civic willingness to face limits" is practically non-existent, inside of systems that depend upon the enforcement of frauds becoming exponentially more fraudulent.

    While human beings and civilization necessarily live as entropic pumps of environmental energy flows, the ways that those developed drove that to be done through the maximum possible dishonesties about themselves. Therefore, it is relatively routine for those who consider the possible roles of alternative energy systems to deliberately NOT engage in deeper analysis regarding how human beings and civilization actually already work as manifestations of general energy systems. My view is that the vast majority of the few people who attempt to more seriously consider alternative energy generation continue to take for granted thinking using the dualities of false fundamental dichotomies and the related impossible ideals, rather than are willing and able to start thinking using more unitary mechanisms regarding how to understand human beings and civilization as already being manifestations of general energy systems, BECAUSE, when one does so, it becomes painfully obvious that human beings and civilization living as entropic pumps of environmental energy flows actually operate according to the principles and methods of organized crime, with the corollary to that becoming that civilization is based upon the maximum possible enforcement of frauds, becoming exponentially more fraudulent, while everyone living within those systems enjoys proportional social successfulness to the degree to which they are the best available professional hypocrites.

    The problems that human beings and civilization faces with respect to developing different evolutionary ecologies, which include emerging industrial and natural ecologies, along with emerging human ecologies, are that the actually existing human ecologies developed through the death controls being done in the most deceitful ways possible, which includes not only the core groups of organized crime, but also all of the layers of controlled opposition that adapted to surround that core of organized crime. WE ARE ALREADY STUCK INSIDE THOSE REPEATING RUTS OF THE VICIOUS SPIRALS OF POLITICAL FUNDING ENFORCING FRAUDS, IN WAYS WHICH MAKE IT POLITICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO GET OUT OF THOSE RUTS …

    The development of better integrated systems of alternative energy sources faces its greatest obstacles as the ways that the existing systems are based upon the real history of the murder systems, backing up the actual money systems, that control the existing manifestations of how civilization works. It is as if the discussion of alternative energy falls off the edge of a flat earth, or into a black hole, when the general understanding of energy systems approaches the deeper understanding of human beings and civilization as being already thoroughly developed energy systems, with already thoroughly developed death control systems, which are actually being done in the most dishonest ways possible, while the controlled opposition groups to those systems also continue to take for granted thinking and communicating about those essential issues by staying inside of the maximum possible deceitful frame of reference regarding those death control systems in general, and especially the murder systems in particular.

    Although it is theoretically possible to better understand human beings and civilization operating as entropic pumps of environmental energy flows, doing so requires series of intellectual scientific revolutions, and profound paradigm shifts, the most important of which are to appreciate how and why warfare was already the best developed form of social science and engineering, whose social successfulness depended upon being able to deceitful and treacherous, such that the currently established sociopolitical systems have developed to be operated by the best available professional hypocrites, who stay within the frame of reference of the maximum possible dishonesty regarding the death control systems.

    It is barely possible to exaggerate the degree to which the vast majority of human beings within the dominate civilization deliberately misunderstand themselves in the most absurdly backward ways possible, especially because that also almost totally includes the controlled opposition groups. Therefore, while human beings and civilization actually live as entropic pumps of environmental energy flows, the ways that they think and communicate about doing that has become as inverted and perverted as possible. Inside that overall context, I am not aware of any public discussions of the theoretical abundance of creative alternatives which more directly admits and addresses that creative alternative death control systems must necessarily become the central core to any of that.

    Nature was being Nature when natural selection was internalized as human intelligence, and then that intelligence was applied to the most important selection pressures, which were other groups of people, which resulted in warfare between societies, and class warfare within societies. One is still thinking in terms of DUALITIES, false fundamental dichotomies, and impossible ideals, when one is presuming that it is ever possible for the laws of nature to stop working. However, the degrees to which the biggest bullies' bullshit world views have driven the development of the dominant natural languages and philosophy of science, those have resulted in almost everyone taking completely for granted thinking and communicating AS IF DUALITIES ABSOLUTELY EXIST.

    To think of human beings and civilization as entropic pumps of environmental energy flows requires using the UNITARY MECHANISMS which are consistent with natural laws. However, since the only connections between human laws and natural laws are the abilities to back up lies with violence, and those are almost totally presented in the most absurdly backward ways by the best available professional hypocrites, who specialize in spouting false fundamental dichotomies, and promoting bogus "solutions" based upon impossible ideals, that misunderstand the actual mechanisms in the most absurdly backward ways possible, "our civic willingness to face limits" is practically NIL, or rather, may only be measured in relative negative numbers, due to the degree to which everything is publicly misunderstood in the most absurdly backward ways possible.

    There are growing Grand Canyon Chasms between prodigious progress in physical science, without that being integrated and surpassed by progress in political science. Philosophically speaking, that is because the progress in physics was based upon series of profound paradigm shifts, which discovered deeper levels of UNITARY MECHANISMS behind apparent DUALITIES, while nothing like that has been allowed to happen in political science, since that would require facing the social facts that governments are necessarily the biggest forms of organized crime, controlled by the best organized gangs of criminals.

    The overall results are that we are living inside of an oxymoronic scientific dictatorship, which adamantly refuses to become more scientific about itself. Therefore, human beings and civilization are being controlled by enforced frauds, which are becoming exponentially more fraudulent. However, those are the manifestations of that Nature IS Nature. The laws of nature do not stop working when frauds are enforced. The laws of nature do not stop working when civilization based upon enforcing frauds becomes exponentially more fraudulent, and therefore, exponentially more psychotically out of touch with relatively objective realities. Furthermore, the laws of nature do not stop working when those attempting superficial analysis of alternative energy sources, which may be more sustainable, continue to deliberately misunderstand themselves doing that in the most absurdly backward ways, because they continue to take for granted thinking using DUALITIES, and therefore, presuming upon the mechanisms regarding how things actually work in the most absurdly backward ways.

    At face value, attempting to understand energy systems should be based upon using more UNITARY MECHANISMS, because those are what are most consistent with the principle of the conservation of energy. However, when it comes to attempting to better understand human beings and civilization as entropic pumps of environmental energy flows, those are publicly presented through DUALITIES, and have been for thousands of years, such that almost everyone continues to completely take that for granted.

    The vast majority of the few people that attempt to consider alternative energy systems tend to continue to take completely for granted their misunderstanding the concept of entropy in the most absurdly backward ways. Furthermore, they tend to continue to promote creative alternatives that shy away from the necessary central core of any systems of creative alternatives, which would be alternative death controls and murder systems. However, it is towards those topics that we should most attempt to start thinking using more UNITARY MECHANISMS, rather than continue to think and communicate in ways which take DUALITIES for granted.

    What is NOT sustainable are systems based upon being able to enforce frauds, that become exponentially more fraudulent. Those are headed towards series of psychotic breakdowns, crazy collapses into chaos, as severe social storms blow through. However, throughout those processes, the laws of nature will continue working, and indeed, those events should be perceived such that Nature IS Nature. We should expect that some sorts of evolutionary ecologies shall emerge. However, we should also expect that the currently established debt slavery systems, driving themselves to become debt insanities, are going to provoke death insanities. Moreover, we should start thinking about those eruptions of death insanities using more UNITARY MECHANISMS, in order to perhaps catalyze those towards becoming better overall death control systems. Without that, then none of the other creative alternative energy technologies could be systematically integrated in any better ways.

    • EtyerePetyere says:
      • The phrase

        Nobody is in Control.

        is consistent with "Nobody" being one of the names of "God."

        There are NO relatively finite beings which have absolute control, but rather, those which only exert some relative control. While there is a elaborate science of information theory and cybernetics, the limit case conclusions are that since purpose exists due to the mechanisms of various feedback loops, where some of the outputs of a system return as inputs, then the supreme purpose would be the Universe as a whole, for which all outputs return as inputs.

        Thus, only the Universe as a whole would be in control. However, attempting to think about such Unity can only be relatively approached through using Dualities. MY POINTS ARE WITH RESPECT TO HOW TO ATTEMPT TO ASYMPTOTICALLY APPROACH UNITY THROUGH DUALITIES. My approach to the concept of "God" is the sum total of the conservation of energy and momentum, and the preservation of information. One can use those notions to attempt to understand how relatively subtracted beings then have relatively perceived ways of behaving. As soon as one perceives and defines human beings as relatively separated from their environment and each other, then they necessarily live as gangs of robbers.

        All such subtractions are relative. However, the biggest bullies' bullshit world view is to promote those as fundamental dichotomies. Particularly, that takes the form of the biggest and best organized gangs of robbers, the bankster controlled governments, presenting themselves as NOT being gangs of robbers, because they assert that somehow having legalized their lies, and legalized their violence that backs up those lies, means that they are no longer operating as organized crime gangs.


        I.e., what are the UNITARY MECHANISMS that the flow of energy actually operates through?

        In order to attempt that, one has already started with some relative subtractions of relatively finite beings from their environment and each other. Those relative subtractions are necessarily relative lies, and illusions, because there are NO beings which actually are absolutely separated from their environment and each other. However, the history of warfare has particularly driven the development of false fundamental dichotomies, through the struggles between different people, to determine which could kill the others first.

        Terence McKenna was relatively popular in to some alternative audiences, because he presented his notions of Oneness mostly through the Dualities that such audiences want to continue to perceive the world through. While the mainstream tends to present its social stories in ways which take for granted its Dualities, the various possible alternatives ironically tend to point out the basic Oneness, that transcends those Dualities, but then, collapses back to the same bullshit-based Dualities, when proposing and promoting their favourite alternative "solutions."

        While post-modernizing mathematical physics has re-converged with ancient mysticism, almost everyone has been taught to think and communicate through languages built upon taking DUALITIES almost totally for granted. Therefore, even those who somewhat recognize more of the Oneness, mostly still continue to propose and promote bogus "solutions" based upon taking for granted those Dualities, in ways which therefore present the mechanisms of how thing really work in the most absurdly backward ways possible. Indeed, it is extremely ironic how the most popular promoters of the greater appreciation of Oneness continue to end up promoting bogus "solutions" based upon continuing to take for granted Dualities, and hence, go to the wrong pole of the dichotomies, in order to propose somehow actualizing impossible ideals.

        Terence McKenna is one of the examples of doing so. Hence, it is true that "Nobody is in Control," but it is also possible to change the perception of that to assert that Nobody IS in Control. Each and every relatively finite being is relatively in control, through their own energy flows operating as Unitary Mechanisms, through which the overall flow of energy is conserved. Since those relatively finite beings are NOT absolutely finite, they are NOT absolutely in control. Human beings and civilization operate as relative control systems, by living as entropic pumps of environmental energy flows. The core of those controls are the death control systems, whose most extreme forms are the murder systems. Therefore, any attempts to develop alternative energy systems necessarily requires alternative murder systems to be the central controls to those. Of course, those alternative murder systems would continue to be only relative, not absolute, and therefore, only relatively in control, while not absolutely in control, but rather participate in the overall controls, which are infinite, realityless-Realities: the Great Nonthing, which is All Things.

        In my opinion, Terence McKenna, et alia, are forms of controlled opposition to the established systems, because those are the only attitudes that enough of an alternative audience approves of, so that other people will become informed about those kinds of alternatives. The vast majority of the few people who like to think about alternatives do NOT think more deeply about those. Rather, they tend to have their bogus "solutions" collapse back to being based upon the same old-fashioned dichotomies. One of the supreme paradoxes is that the Universe is already perfect. We participate in that perfection, even when some human beings are attempting to murder other human beings. How those death control struggles work through ends up directing the evolution of those human beings and civilization. Ultimately, there is no death, because the flow of energy is not stopped. There are only toroidal vortices of energy flows, nested within others, which appear, and disappear, due to those being perceived by the axis that goes through the middle of those, which axis is like the eye of a tornado, where there is no wind, or the center of a whirlpool, where there is no water.

        Human beings living as entropic pumps of environmental energy flows are actually made of infinite loops of energy that take the form of those tubes of flesh, which alternate generations, which appear to be born, live and die. However, from the point of view of the energy flowing through, nothing changes but those toroidal vortices. Similarly, civilization is a greater toroidal vortex, composed of its internal units of toroidal vortices. Social pyramid systems are actually toroidal vortex systems. However, the biggest bullies' bullshit deliberately attempts to deny and ignore how the top and bottom of those social pyramids are connect, as well as be willfully blind to how those social systems are integrated into the environmental systems. Furthermore, due to thousands of years of civilization being dominated by its biggest bullies, and their bullshit social stories, there is almost nothing which is publicly significant than various controlled opposition groups, amongst whom I would include Terence McKenna, as well as myself, since I too am attempting to use the English language to think and communicate with, despite English being the biggest bullies' bullshit language par excellence.

        Better reconciliations of mathematic physics with ancient mysticism is possible. However, that sort of asymptotic approach towards appreciation of our Oneness ends up developing more Unitary Mechanisms, in ways which end up more going to the negative pole to established Unity, rather than to the positive pole to established Unity. Hence, the recommendations that we develop better government as better organized crime, operating better murder systems. Of course, any such systems are based upon original subtractions. However, that is my point. We can not have language without Dualities, but then, how do we attempt to reconcile those Dualities with the Unity of Universal Oneness? Throughout history, various religions and ideologies have been attempting to do that, but those were almost always only publicly significant because they were layers of controlled opposition, surrounding the core of organized crime, which did not propose and promote better organized crime, but rather the impossible ideals that there should be no organized crime. The currently existing political economy is already based upon governments enforcing frauds by private banks, as the biggest forms of organized crime, controlled by the best organized gangs of criminals. The currently existing energy systems within that economy were driven to develop in the directions mandated by that history of organized crime. There is nothing but the dynamic equilibria between different systems of more or less organized lies operating robberies. Any alternative systems must become changes in those dynamic equilibria and changes in those systems of lies operating robberies.

        Meanwhile, it is typical for those engaged in superficial analysis of the problems presented by the existing systems to then promote superficial "solutions."  There is usually relatively correct analysis, based upon taking relative dichotomies for granted, but then, bogus "solutions" based upon the same old-fashioned impossible ideals. Those are relatively popular and approved of by larger alternative audiences, who want to continue to believe in their favourite impossible ideals, despite that those always backfire badly and cause the opposite to actually happen, because those impossible ideals were originally promoted by the biggest bullies, to enable them to bullshit better, such that they could be the best available professional hypocrites, who operated systems of more or less organized lies and robberies, while presenting themselves doing that through various sets of false fundamental dichotomies, and thereby claiming to be doing the opposite of what they were really doing. Civilization has become intensely paradoxical, and operates through systems of consistent contradictions, due to the best organized gangs of criminals being the most successfully dishonest about themselves. That includes almost all of the controlled opposition groups, including those who promote and propose alternative energy systems, without going into the deeper levels of analysis that alternative murder systems would necessarily be the real core of any such systems of alternatives.

        As RE refers to the "collapse blogosphere," and so on, those are almost all what I would call manifestations of controlled opposition groups, that present relatively correct superficial analyses of the problems, but then collapse back to bullshit "solutions," which continue to take for granted thinking too much in terms of false fundamental dichotomies. In general, that approach continues to be more popular and approved of within those relatively alternative communities. That is the context in which I presented by original comment above, as well as my reply to your link to a Terence McKenna video. Better UNITARY MECHANISMS actually go to the negative pole to establish UNITY, rather than to the positive pole. That is because the original DUALITIES were developed as the biggest bullies' bullshit, which originally inverted everything. Hence, the concept of entropy was inverted, by the equations of thermodynamics, and then information theory, having arbitrary minus signs inserted, in order that the measurements of power and information would end up appearing to have relative positive values, rather than relative negative values. That was one of the many other ways that the philosophy of science historically compromised with the biggest bullies' bullshit world view.

        The overwhelming vast majority of people continue to take such perverse inversions for granted, That includes the vast majority of those in various alternative communities, who are approved of and popular because, after their analyses of the problems, they return to impossible ideals as the basis for their bogus "solutions." The vast majority of those people who attempt any better thermodynamic analyses of human beings and civilization continue to take for granted the biggest bullies' bullshit distortions of the perception of thermodynamics. Furthermore, they do so to the degree that they tend to have not the slightest personal interest in going through the series of intellectual revolutions and profound paradigm shifts which would be required to somewhat correct those enormous errors.

        In general, the bullies became "popular." Similarly, the controlled opposition groups are relatively more "popular." The idea that better Unitary Mechanisms are to be found at the negative pole of the various false fundamental dichotomies and the related impossible ideals is an extremely unpopular approach. However, that is what is actually necessary, since the murder systems relatively controlled the monetary systems, which relatively controlled the political economy, and thus directed the development of the industrial revolutions. Therefore, any alternatives to the consequences of the industrial revolutions must have alternative murder systems at their core. The original article above does NOT do that. It does not even appear to try to do that. As far as I am aware of, people like Terence McKenna NEVER attempted to do that either. Rather, he tended to point out the Oneness, but then, proposed and promoted the same old-fashioned impossible ideals, as bogus "solutions" to the failures of civilization to appreciate that Oneness better.

        Genuinely better, realistic resolutions to the real problems are infinitely more difficult and dangerous than the superficial notions regarding the implementation of alternative energy systems, because the central core to those are necessarily different death control systems in general, and different murder systems in particular. There is no area in which it is more imperative to attempt to use more Unitary Mechanisms, rather than the Dualities of false fundamental dichotomies and the related impossible ideals, than in the domain of militarism, as the ideology of the murder systems. That is made increasingly imperative by progress in mathematical physics, which has enabled technologies like atomic bombs. However, so far, political science has done nothing remotely close to going through series of intellectual revolutions, in the ways that physical science already has.

        Moreover, amongst the publicly significant controlled opposition groups, there is virtually no interest in going through those sorts of profound paradigm shifts in the ways that they perceive political problems. Rather, the vast majority of the relatively few that are interested in thinking about alternatives are NOT interested in thinking more deeply about those alternatives. Therefore, most of those who propose and promote alternative energy systems are NOT willing and able to go through deeper levels of analysis regarding how human beings and civilization already operate as energy systems. There is virtually no publicly significant opposition that is not controlled by continuing to think and communicate in ways which take for granted the impossible ideals originally developed by the biggest bullies to enable being better professional hypocrites.

        The "collapse blogosphere" follows the typical profile of the degree to which those who are more popular are those who tend towards concluding their superficially correct analyses with collapsing back to bogus "solutions" based upon impossible ideals. Of course, all of that is understandable. However, all of that mostly contributed to the ways that the established systems have become increasingly psychotic, and so, headed towards psychotic breakdowns. There is virtually no publicly significant genuine opposition to the established systems, and it currently appears to be politically impossible that any could emerge in the foreseeable future. Civilization continues to almost totally dominated by the best available professional hypocrites, and that includes the controlled opposition groups that are more popular in the various spurious "alternative" communities.

  • lracine says:

    This interview is in keeping with this article…

    Dr. Hugh Hunt & Professor Kevin Anderson discussing Climate Change realities

    Their insight into COP 21



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