Nihilism, Misanthropy & Misery Metasticize

youtube-Logo-4gc2reddit-logoOff the keyboard of RE

Follow us on Twitter @doomstead666
Friend us on Facebook

Published on The Doomstead Diner on July 24, 2016

Discuss this article at the Psychology Table inside the Diner

The reasons people become Kollapsniks (followers of Collapse Dynamics) vary quite a bit.  I came to collapse from the economic end, looking for the reasons behind the collapse of the investment banks Bear Stearns and Lehman brothers in 2008.

My early investigation led me to deduce it was primarily energy related, which led me to the Peak Oil forum.  That forum had it's heyday slightly before I arrived on the scene in around 2006, although it was still a highly active forum with 100s of posts a day going up in 2008 when I got there.  The preponderance of collapse discussion at this time revolved around economics and energy, and climate was only tangentially discussed occassionally.

human-extinctionDuring this period also, you were considered a fairly serious doomer if you suggested we would need to drop back to a 1750s style of living in order to deal with the lack of FFs and that a fairly significant number of people would have to die since the planet is in overshoot WRT Homo Saps without the extra energy input from fossil fuels.  You were REALLY serious as a Doomer if you suggested the best we could do is Stone Age technology living as Hunter-Gatherers.  There were a few people suggesting Extinction might be in the cards, but none of them suggested it would happen on an extremely short timeline, on the order of 20 years from present day or even less.  Even those who did suggest it were a relatively small number in the commentariat.

In the intervening years though, deterioration in the climate with more and bigger disasters each year and steadily rising concentrations of CO2 in the atmosphere has brought a new and rising number of Kollapsniks into the community, the Klimate Kollapsnik.

The KK is barely concerned with economics at all, what worries her or him are all the dieing fishes as the ocean acidifies, along with dying phytoplankton who we will suffocate without their production of oxygen.  All of this gets blamed on the Great Evil occupying the Planet, Homo Sap.  VERMIN IN NEED OF EXTERMINATION! Homo Sap is responsible for all our ongoing and escalating problems due to burning FFs and turning the planet into an industrial sewer.  As a result, folks holding these views are becoming increasingly more prevalent across the collapse blogosphere, increasingly more nihilistic about possible outcomes and increasingly more misanthropic in their attitude toward their fellow Homo Saps.  A fairly common meme now amongst this crowd is that Homo Saps DESERVE to DIE, and the SOONER THE BETTER!

extinction-buttonIdentifying where this meme began is fairly EZ if you have been following collapse dynamics on the blogosphere these last 8 years, it began on Guy McPherson's Nature Bats Last website.  Guy was one of the first people to call for not just Human Extinction, but NEAR TERM Human Extinction, with his timeline constantly getting shorter on this, now to the point of calling it for 2020 according to some of his readers, although last I checked it was 2030.  Either way, that is a remarkably short timeline to 7.2B DEAD PEOPLE!

I participated on NBL for a couple of years in the commentariat, generally making the case that Extinction is an inevitability but that such a short timeline is highly unlikely and in the meantime you need to figure out how to survive a changing climate, because for whatever the underlying reasons are for this, it's definitely changing.  However, my attitude of trying to find solutions to a very nasty problem here was not well received in the NBL commentariat because it was deemed to be infused with too much HOPIUM.  Having ANY hope whatsoever that ANY Homo Saps can survive coming changes was considered DELUSIONAL.  Dr. McStinksion, the Great Guru of Death himself has proclaimed that it is HOPELESS.  We're ALL GONNA DIE.

The effect of this leadership position by Guy drew in to the NBL commentariat a lot of serious nihilists and misanthropes, mainly from long time environmental activists who have experienced failure after failure for the last 40 years in terms of trying to get anything about BAU changed in any real significant way.  Their conclusion now is that the BEST outcome that can occur is for Homo Sap to DIE as soon as possible, in order to perhaps save a few beloved trees and other animals.

extinction2There is a kind of confirmation bias ongoing here amongst these folks, Dr. McStinksion included.  Since they WANT Homo Sap to die, they cherry pick every piece fo data they can dig up to demonstrate it will happen. AND SOON!  No evidence to the contrary is tolerated, no argument that we can transition off FFs is acceptable.  If you have the temerity to make such an argument on NBL you are brigaded in the commentariat as the Extinction Hound Dogs are let loose and ridicule you as hopelessly deluded.

As a result of this, I left the NBL commentariat behind a year or two ago now.  Although I enjoy a good argument, the place was simply too fucking DEPRESSING.  Not a thread goes by where people don't talk about suicide.  You can't propose ideas for making things better because…IT'S HOPELESS!  So all that gets discussed is how Evil Homo Saps are and whether suicide is a good option here?  Even if you believe this to be true, is this really the way you want to spend your last days on Earth?  Wallowing in Suicidal Misery?

Now, this would not be a terrific problem if it was confined to NBL, I just knock that one off my Blogroll of websites to read and chat up collapse issues.  In the last year or so though, I am noting that the problem has metasticized.  I also participate on the Reddit Sub r/collapse, and haunting the commentariat there are numerous fans of Dr. McStinksion, led by one regular commenter FishMahBoi who is obsessed with the possibility that Cannibalism will be a prominent feature of the oncoming extinction.

I also cross post and regularly talk on the Collapse Cafe with Gail Tverberg who runs the Our Finite World blog.  I don't drop in the commentariat there too often, but after her last article I did so because I take issue with her cockamamie anthropological arguments that Homo Saps must have Fire because we have small jaws and need to cook our food.  Mostly we had a fairly genial discussion about our conflicting opinions on this topic, but again OFW has a very prolific poster Fast Eddy, who is yet another nihilist/misanthrope.  You can't make a positive comment on OFW these days without FE dropping in to accuse you of holding a passport to DelusiSTAN.  The commentariat of OFW USED to be fairly balanced with people proposing different ideas and possible solutions, but they seem to have mostly disappeared as the overwhelming meme now in that comentariat is that Homo Sap is doomed and no solution will work.  Although she is more cagey about it than Dr. McStinksion, you can tell Gail herself holds out no hope.  She is convinced Homo Saps must have fire to survive, convinced we will be unable to extract the expensive FFs left due to economic reasons and then will proceed to burn down all forests on earth in the insatiable Quest for Fire.  So this attitude attracts the nihilists and misanthropes into the commentariat, and then they come to dominate because they depress the hell out of everyone else and then people holding opposing opinions stop reading and/or contributing.

psychology-illustration-man-depressed-stateNow, given the fact I titled my blog the Doomstead Diner, you probably figure I am a pretty negative person myself WRT how things are going to progress as we move further down the Collapse Highway.  Compared to the average J6P and even many people who frequent collapse websites I am pretty Doomy, since I forsee a large scale die off of the Homo Sap population occuring over the next century, 90% or even 99% of current population seems likely to me to go to the Great Beyond.  That could cut Homo Sap population down to the millions from the current billions.  That's a lot of DEAD PEOPLE.

I also am completely aware of the climate problems we face, and the likelihood that over some timeframe here we will get an ocean level rise which will inundate most of the major cities, which is one of the many areas die off will come from.  We'll also have disease problems as sewage systems go offline and as clean water becomes less available to the population.  We'll have famine as aquifers are drained dry and we'll have wars as the remaining populations fight over the few resources that remain.  This is an old story, the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse, with the only real significant difference the scale of the operation they will undertake this time.

the-four-horsemen-of-the-apocalypseOne difference from prior events of this type often brought up is the presence of the NUKES, specifically the spent fuel ponds which need to be actively cooled for decades.  While they are a nasty problem, I don't see them as existentially threatening, at least not the reactors, the ICBMs could be.  One can only HOPE the maniacs with their fingers on the Button have enough CFS to keep from pushing that button in the MAD scenario.

In the event of a crash of the system, the spent fuel can be moved to places like Yucca Mountain.  In the absence of active cooling, this stuff will melt down, but not go super critical if not packed too tight.  The desert there is going to be unlivable ANYHOW due to climate change and there is no water table left to speak of to pollute there.  It just becomes a no-go zone for a million years or so.

Some radionucleotides will be emitted as gases, and this will likely raise background radiation levels up some, but not by that much we can't survive it.  Likeliest outcome there is a rise in infant mortality, greater cancer frequency and a shorter overall lifespan, at least at the beginning.  Over time however, this radiation will dissipate.

So what you are left with here is a Binary if you are a serious Kollapsnik.  Either there will be SOME people left (however small the number), or there will be NOBODY left.  For the Nihilists & Misanthropes, they HOPE for the termination of Homo Sap as a species, so they latch on to every piece of evidence they can find to justify this conclusion.

For myself on the other side of this binary divide, I look for evidence to establish the opposite is true, that SOME people can survive.

The most important piece of evidence in this respect is the geological history of the Earth, which has gone through numerous periods of heating and cooling, numerous periods where carbon was released into the atmosphere and then re-sequestered, up to something like 4000ppm, an order of magnitude higher than the current atmospheric content of carbon.  The Max AGT the earth experiences during these cycles has an upper limit, around 11C above the current baseline.  So the question is here, can Homo Sap survive an environment where the AGT is 11C above the current one? Well, not in many if not most places on the earth we currently inhabit, that's for sure.  The Tropics are pretty certain to be Hell Holes, they already are in some places during summer with new records being set all the time for high temps.  We already postulated we will lose a lot of current low lying coastal areas to sea level rise.  So habitat will shrink, but will it entirely DISAPPEAR?  Never has before, so I don't see why it would this time either.  Both the upper latitudes and the upper elevations on the remaining land mass are likely to have survivable habitats.  Rainfall in some areas is increasing to flood proportions, in other areas decreasing to drought proportions.  Between the two, there are "sweet spots" where just the RIGHT amount of rain falls.

What about the fact that certain crops are adapted to certain environments, and because this change is occuring rapidly they won't have time to adapt?

Well, in this case Homo Sap can actually be HELPFUL, since as we migrate we can bring the seeds from one place to another and back into a suitable climate to grow those crops.

What about Poor Soil in many places in the North which have not been suitable for growing plants over the last few millenia?  Well, soil isn't really necessary, plants can be grown through Hydroponics and Aquaculture.  Over time, the compost from this can be used for soil ammendation, and gradually improve that end of food production, thus gradually bringing the population back up from a period of Undershoot to one of stability and sustainability.

You can of course go on and on with what the logistical problems are and why our current political systems will not allow for the necessary changes to be made fast enough.  However, one thing is pretty certain here, which is that once we hit a period where half the population on earth dies within a few years, there will be significant changes in the political will of the people still left standing!  Will they be able to organize and make the necessary changes as this progresses?  That is an open question you can't answer for sure, since at least in recorded history Homo Sap has never faced such an existential challenge.  However, this again is an area where I prefer to think POSITIVELY rather than NEGATIVELY, and simply assume everybody will start cannibalizing everyone else.  Cannibalism may occur, it certainly has in the past in times of deprivation.  It has limits though, and people generally only do this down to a certain point where they can once again gather enough other foods than their fellow Homo Saps.

In the end here if you are a Kollapsnik, you have 2 choices.  Either you can be nihilistic about the whole thing and QUIT with the philosophy that there is nothing you can do to stop it or even just help yourself survive a bit longer, or you can take a POSITIVE philosophy and make attempts to survive and also to sow the seeds of a better society and a Better Tomorrow sometime in the admittedly distant future, as it appears now.  Your days on earth are numbered no matter which way this goes, everyone ends up dead in the end no matter what.  So WTF does anyone want to live out their last days on earth mired in misery bemoaning their own extinction?

Not to pull any punches here, WTF don't these folks just OFF THEMSELVES NOW?  They might save a few trees and cockroaches, both of which have more redeeming social value than nihilists.  Do everyone a favor and pull the plug already!  At the very least, it would make the Collapse Blogosphere a whole lot less depressing!

For the rest of us, where there is life, there is still hope.  It looks grim to be sure, but it is always darkest before the dawn.  It's not OVAH until the Fat Lady Sings, and she's not singing yet.  Skinny Little Girls are singing though, and cheer up here!  The SUN☼ will come out tomorrow!

60 Responses to Nihilism, Misanthropy & Misery Metasticize

  • Ed says:

    Some will survive. I am hoping me and mine are in the some. That is the way elvolution always was and always will be.

    • Michael Rynn says:

      RE is a bit of a stirrer. Certainly on the money for the fashionable memes of posts.
      Also too many acronyms.  What is CFS? Chernobyl-Fukishima Syndrome? The problem is the pessimists are all members of homo economicus, and naturally they think the end of fossil fuel economy, already at the end of growth, is the end of everything, when in fact it is the collapse of this economicus species culture meme, and the retreat of our battle of exploitation of nature. Nature wins, because we are part of nature. Nature doesn't bat last, she has always been batting, even in her retreat from our economic onslaught. A considerable amount of human economic complexity has yet to collapse into dust and burial by nature. Included in collapse is the global electronic communications grid, and information and energy transports, including the internet. Survivors will be forced to find different models of cooperation (like monasteries, as suggested by John Michael Greer), and keeping widespread written records, and a priesthood of reading, will be necessary if we are to remember WTF happened in the future. The great variety of location, time, climate, species, local resources will sort out which cultural memes are viable for the next phase.
      The story doesn't end yet. Only the story tellers get changed, when they get too unbelievable, too numerous and out of synch with reality.   This will happen first on global, and then on many local scales.
      The climate system changes set in motion are very serious, have happened before in mass extinctions.
      Guy Macpherson and other climate doomsters are unfairly presented as depressing scapegoats. Next you will be going all after the many science publications, whereby those depressing science literati derive their pessimism. I pick out Peter Ward, of the Hydrogen Sulphide producing bacterial oceans fame, the many climate science papers which point to feedbacks of climate change. We have probably under-estimated climate change, and how hard we have really poked nature with a really big stick. We have surely also underestimated the collapse of the complex systems of homo economicus. Perhaps the two underestimations will have cancelled out within the time-span millenia or three.  After a few million years of explosive re-evolution, will there be new klimate kollapsenik variants of  homo sapiens? Will they be shorn of the ability to do such great harm that we have done? Natural selection will find out which temperaments and phenotypes will survive the great bottleneck in-between. The winnowing process has only just begun. This civilization only has a few mellenia memory. Evolution of species operates on millions of year frames. We think our short timescales matter. On evolutions time scale we are a very short firework display.
      On our own personal time scales , the great transition is a slow process, finally sped up to be within our lifetimes.

  • InAlaska says:

    Well said, RE!  I re-posted a part of this on Our Finite World because I have watched that wonderful blog deteriorate into a Fast Eddie hopeless echo chamber and wish for it to pull back from the brink and think about other possible futures.  Hope you don't mind.  Keep up the great, balanced, smart work.

    • RE says:

      No I don't mind at all.

      This is a conversation that is necessary to have on the Collapse Blogs.  The cancer of Nihilism is steadily growing, I observe this all the time.  Nobody spends more time reading through collapse stories and commentariats than I do, and I have been doing it for 8 straight years now.

      It will be interesting to see what the reaction is on OFW.  I also am working on a Part II for this "Surfing the Negative Waves".


    • Ed says:

      Few can be saved is far different than zero can be saved.

  • Craig Moodie says:

    I live South Africa, built a successful business, sold out to a major corporation, just at the right time and have spent the last 8 years building a self sustaining homestead, no expenses spared. The primary reason is so that my genes,hopefully, will be carried forward into the future. One of the seconary reasons, I invested heavily in  survival is so that I could have a grandstand seat and survive long enough to witness the the demise of most of humanity, who for the most part are hubristic,self centred,ignorant always wanting more.

    Does this make me a misanthropist? I guess so.

  • Etyere Petyere says:

    It is all going to go down . Just not this time . . Drink more cool-aid .! i was also way to much revolutionary with my cool aid attitude for NBL . Now i can bee cool here on doomstead instead . I am a joke ! no just a jerk a fuckup a doucheabag ? all of the above ? you tell me . Definitely a looooooser !

  • Craig Moodie says:

    I should have concluded the following in my last post; anthropocentrism was always going to be the ultimate cause of the demise of humanity. If you need me to elaborate on the above statement then your ignorance is merely confirmed.

    This is directed specifially at you ,RE.

    • lracine says:


      Yeah I do indeed need you to elaborate on your statement….  specifically the part where you direct it toward RE????

    • RE says:

      No need for elaboration.  You're a jackass.


      • Etyere Petyere says:

        Right now i am in central europe visiting which is my home turf i have not been here in summertime for the last 10 years + The weather has become here unbereably hot and humid with no break and relief  . it has significantly changed since i have been here the last time . and i am only talking 10 years  . This climate here compared to my place in BC is hell on earth  and it changed to this really fast .. No problem folks drink more cool aid there will be survivors you probably think you yourself or your little precious genetic makup will make it so you can spread the faulty genpool of yours into infinity thinking that thats how you will escape annihilation and death …. dream on  and drink more cool aid 

  • Stilgar Wilcox says:

    I just tried to reply to some of the posts on Gail's site regarding FE taking over the website, but my post was 'ELIMINATED'.

    Anyway, all websites end up with a personality that takes over the message board to dictate that person's line of thought on the others. Deviate too far and the top dog will give you feedback. On the oil drum it was Darwinian, on peak oil dot com it was last I was there about a year ago, shortonoil dictating to me in condescending ways, so i left that site for Gail's, only to find FE. The same thing probably happens in small towns. Remember Teasle, the sheriff in First Blood in which he and Rambo knock heads? That was an example of two top dogs butting heads. WWII had the famous battles between Hitler and Stalin for Stalingrad. Even lower primates and wolves have a top dog. It seems to go with the territory of human beings. Someone always ends up taking that role and pissing down everybody's else's leg.

    • RE says:

      Not sure your post on OFW was purposefully deleted.  Gail's database is a mess.  I have had numerous posts I made disappear into the ether, and I am pretty sure it is not Gail deleting them.  She needs to do a database clean up seriously.

      Far as the "Top Dog" syndrome goes in a Commentariat, yes I am aware of it.  I've been moderating forums since the Wild West days on AOL.  Here on the Diner on our Forum, I have run into the problem of prolific posters attempting to dominate the forum with contrarian ideology.  I no longer tolerate this.  There is a "Top Dog" on the Diner.  It is me.  I have enough experience with this shit to know when somebody is fucking with me.  I am perfectly happy, in fact ecstatically happy to have a good debate with people who have other opinions.  I do not however enjoy being called an idiot.  Do that, and I will squash you like a bug on the Diner.  That is all she wrote.

  • lracine says:

    Nice Sunday morning read RE. 

    About once a week I go to NBL and read Guy's updates to his monster essay.  I usually spend some time reading through the links he provides.  It is insightful because Guy usually cites papers that have been peer reviewed.  Reading those papers (the ones that you can get access to) gives one a sense for how serious the issues are…

    The question that stands is… what is possible and what is probable?


    • RE says:

      "The question that stands is… what is possible and what is probable? "-IR

      What seems most probable to me is that Homo Sap will suffer an extreme population knockdown event over the next century.  Whether the species can rebound from a period of extreme population undershoot or go extinct resultant from this knockown is something I cannot Handicap in odds.  Too many variables and the timeline on the question is far too long to make a reasonable prediction either way.

      Meanwhile, would you prefer to live as a QUITTER with the assumption EVERYBODY DIES, or as a SURVIVALIST with the assumption SOME PEOPLE CAN LIVE?


      • UnhingedBecauseLucid says:

        [ "Compared to the average J6P and even many people who frequent collapse websites I am pretty Doomy, since I forsee a large scale die off of the Homo Sap population occuring over the next century, 90% or even 99% of current population seems likely to me to go to the Great Beyond." ]

        [ "Meanwhile, would you prefer to live as a QUITTER with the assumption EVERYBODY DIES, or as a SURVIVALIST with the assumption SOME PEOPLE CAN LIVE? " ]


        With all due respect RE, I agree with you most of the time, but those kinds of numbers do not enable you to mount any rational argument for alluding to the "nihilists and misanthropes" as a "cancer" to be purged from the collapse blogosphere. 

        The 'cancer' was and is to be found in people laughing at the CFS of limits to growth even to this day

        The warnings were loud and clear; but there was aggravated, criminal negligence –and that — explains the nihilism and misanthropy to a very great extent.

        No, there isn't any appealing virtuousness to it, but I personnally have no problems with that.

        I'm not too fond of the holier than thou 'green-eco-moralist' philosophy that transpires on some sites, but not all nihilists and misanthrope are of the same conviction, and not all are devoid of all nuances absolutists. Scratch a cynic and you'll find a disappointed idealist they say. Probably a bit true for the nihilists and misanthropes too IMHO.

        You made a great rant not to long ago on who bared the responsability for getting civilization painted into a corner. You declared that the elites were responsible. A good post for which I congratulated you even though I did not completely agree with you. I think the responsability might be 70-90 % theirs' , but that collectively, we are not absolved from any wrondoing. Of course quantifying such things always tends to the absurd,… but you know what I mean. George Carlin had a great way to put it I think: 



      • futuresystemsanalyst says:

        or to rephrase

        would you rather live as a REALIST who appreciates their dependence on an imploding civilisation and a disappearing habitat for survival or as a FANTASIST who romanticises a heroic role for themselves on the other side of chaos. 

        would you rather QUIT the MYTHS of humanity that delude us or PROPAGATE their DELUSIONS indefinitely.


      • Etyere Petyere says:

        Drink more cool aid   .. "population reduction in the next century "  sure and for those guys it is going only to happen the century after that …More cool aid anyone ?!

  • The reasons people become Kollapsniks (followers of Collapse Dynamics) vary quite a bit.  I came to collapse from the economic end, looking for the reasons behind the collapse of the investment banks Bear Stearns and Lehman brothers in 2008.

    I started thinking about Collapse Dynamics when I was about 14 years old, which is 52 years ago now.

    I looked at a Time magazine graph of the exponential growth of the human population, and, after thinking about that for a few minutes, I independently rediscovered the Malthusian Dilemma, and so forth, (although at the time I had never heard of Maltus, etc..) During about the dozen years that I was living on university campuses, I took courses from a professional futurologist, who was specializing in Collapse Dynamics. As he said then, back in the 1970s, and which is even more the case now: "The pessimists have more evidence on their side, but the optimists still feel better."

    Regarding issues like whether to "think POSITIVELY rather than NEGATIVELY" my view is based upon attempting to think more seriously about the principle of the conservation of energy, as well as to correct the enormous error in the philosophy of science which occurred when an arbitrary minus sign was inserted into the entropy equations of thermodynamics, so that the measurements of power would end up having relative positive values, rather than relative negative values.

    Ultimately, there is every good reason to believe that the principle of the conservation of energy will continue to work. Furthermore, one may connect that insight to the view that ENERGY IS SPIRIT.

    THAT is then the source of infinite transcendental hope. However, then the questions arise about the degree to which THAT can sustain any lesser sets of relatively rational or irrational hopes. The issues regarding the expected lives of human beings, technologically based civilization, and the human species as a whole are all expressions of the principle of the conservation of energy, working through nested toroidal vortices.

    I.e., individual human beings live like whirlpools in the ocean, or tornadoes in the air, and similarly so for larger groups of human beings. The principle of the conservation of energy is like the water in the ocean, or the air in the atmosphere, whose existence, and continued existence, is the source of any whirlpool or tornado.

    Human beings are basically as tube of flesh, i.e., another toroidal vortex, which is actually made of infinite loops of energy from the environment and back. Indeed, there is nothing there but the environment, which takes the form of that tube of flesh, as a toroidal vortex. To put it another way, since ENVIRONMENT IS GOD, there is nothing there but THAT.

    Those of us living in the currently dominate civilization, using the English language, have been taught to think using the DUALITIES of false fundamental dichotomies, and the related impossible ideals. However, we should attempt to think more using UNITARY MECHANISMS, which are based upon understanding human beings and civilization as entropic pumps of environmental energy flows.

    The source of the various sorts of impossible ideals is the principle of the conservation of energy. However, THAT tends to be thought about in ways which deliberately ignore THAT, and/or misunderstand THAT in the most absurdly backward ways which were humanly possible to develop, due to the history of successful warfare being based upon backing up deceits with destruction, that was the foundation to build political economy on the basis of enforcing frauds.

    "Money" made out of nothing as debts was used to "pay" for strip-mining the natural resources of a fresh planet with the technologies made available through the series of industrial revolutions, in ways which enabled integrated systems of lies backed by violence to grow at about an exponential rate. Thus, the two central themes of Collapse Dynamics are the depletion of natural resources, as done through fundamentally fraudulent financial accounting systems, which present that as being positive, rather than negative.

    The existing political economy transforms natural resources into garbage and pollution as fast as possible, while everyone was taught to think about that in the most absurdly backward ways possible … However, that was always the manifestation of human beings and civilization operating as general energy systems, following the conservation of energy. Hence, any relatively evil outcomes of having done so still continuing to express THAT.

    Any relative death is the death of some form that energy takes while transforming. Therefore, the relative deaths of individual human beings or civilization are based upon THAT ENERGY IS SPIRIT & ENVIRONMENT IS GOD.

    There is always THAT transcendental hope, which is always confirmed by everything that confirms that there principle of the conservation of energy continues working. Hence, the issues regarding relative hopes, (and the degree to which those are relatively rational or irrational) are actually about how energy systems will operate through the conservation of energy.

    The underlying issues are the depletion of natural resources, being done in ways which tend to either deliberately ignore that, and/or misunderstand doing so, in the most absurdly backward ways which are humanly possible, because of how human beings and civilization operate as gangs of robbers in their environment, and end up being dominated by the biggest and best organized gangs of robbers, who were became the best at backing up their deceits with destructions, and enforcing frauds.

    In my view, one of the greatest intellectual challenges is to attempt to understand how civilization based upon being able to back up lies with violence continued to actually develop in ways which were consistent with the principle of the conservation of energy. I.e., to attempt to better understand how human beings and civilization actually are manifestations of general energy systems.

    Another way to put that is to ask exactly how are the relatively rational or irrational hopes, connected to the finite fates of particular tubes of flesh, or collections of tubes of flesh, related to the transcendental hope of the infinite energy that flows through those, and which then takes those forms, as those tubes of flesh appear to be born, live and die, as well as how larger groups of those also appear to be born, live and die.

    In my view, the more that one attempts to develop UNITARY MECHANISMS, rather than continues to rely upon the old-fashioned DUALITIES, the more the relatively rational or irrational hopes regarding the finite fates of apparently finite being blend into the overall ways that their source is the conservation of energy, which provides transcendental hope.

    Only that which actually exists can actually evolve. At the present time, the ways that human beings and civilization live as entropic pumps of environmental energy flows is almost universally ignored and/or misunderstood, as much as humanly possible, due to the degree that actually living as entropic pumps of environmental energy flows necessarily matches the principles and methods of organized crime, which then drives the intensely paradoxical sets of consistent contradictions, as corollaries, that since civilization is dominated by the biggest and best organized gangs of criminals, they were also the most socially successful at being dishonest about that. Furthermore, for generation after generation, since civilization was necessarily based upon systems of more or less organized lies operating robberies, the biggest bullies' bullshit world view became the overwhelmingly dominate social stories, built into the structure of the dominate natural languages and philosophy of science.

    What running into real limits due to the depletion of the previous stocks of natural resources must do is drive changes in the various human, industrial and natural ecologies. Collapse Dynamics is primarily about the increasing ways that there are diminishing returns from the attempts to continue to strip-mine the planet at an exponential rate, coupled with that having actually been done through fundamentally fraudulent financial accounting systems, which presented doing so in the most absurdly backward ways possible, because the biggest bullies' bullshit has totally inverted things that are actually negative into appearing as positive, in the most perverted ways possible.

    But nevertheless, those phenomena may still be understood as expressions of the principle of the conservation of energy, operating because human beings and civilization are manifestations of general energy systems. Furthermore, then that extrapolates to the conclusions that natural selection pressures will continue to shape the artificial selection systems. Hence, the back-up system of transcendental hope continues to provide possible instructions regarding the relatively rational or irrational hopes regarding finite fates.

    There has been an overall biological and cultural evolution, whereby natural selection was internalized as human intelligence, which was then applied to the greatest selection pressures, which were other groups of human beings. Since there are chronic political problems inherent in the nature of life, those had to be resolved somehow, and were actually resolved in the most expedient ways, through the history of warfare, and then the history of economics, whose central control systems were there murder systems, as the most extreme forms of the ways that civilization was necessarily operating according to the principles and methods of organized crime, because those were what necessarily resulted from human beings and civilization necessarily living as entropic pumps of environmental energy flows (which then also resulted in the necessary corollaries that civilization inverted the conception of entropy, along with perverted everything else.)

    In my view, those who appear to be excessively pessimistic are so because they still cling too much to their own kinds of impossible ideals, and irrational hopes. On the contrary, any rational hopes must be based upon how energy systems are actually going to work, which then has the source of those rational hopes become the transcendental hope in the principle of the conservation of energy (which is basically the same as the notions about God.)

    Overall, it appears to be undeniable that the exponential growth of the total of the human population and activities has all been built on the basis of being able to strip-mine the natural resources of fresh planet, while that was primarily done through integrated systems which enforced frauds, which were operated by the best available professional hypocrites. Furthermore, those problems are also directly linked to how and why it appears to be politically impossible to resolve those problems in any better ways. Despite that those enforced frauds are becoming exponentially more fraudulent, and therefore, exponentially more psychotic and criminally insane, those systems are still dominated by the best available professional hypocrites, who are most able to continue to be willfully blind and/or misunderstand those problems as much as possible, while they continue to be the most socially successful people, because their careers are adapted to living inside those entrenched established systems based upon enforcing frauds, such that all of the related psychological and political habits are well-armoured forms of prejudice and deliberate ignorance.

    Given all that, the pessimists have far more rational evidence and logical arguments, regarding the apparent finite fates of the majority of people in the foreseeable future of a technologically advanced civilization, which has become an oxymoronic scientific dictatorship, which adamantly refuses to become genuinely more scientific about itself, but rather, only applies progress in science through technologies in ways which primarily serve the purposes of continuing to enforce frauds.

    However, those pessimists should not get carried away with that perspective, to the point where they lose sight of the on-going transcendental hope, that it was through manifestations of general energy systems that human beings and civilization actually developed to become what it is now, and therefore, those transcendental hopes in the conservation of energy can continue to be expected to operate through the possible future evolution of human beings and civilization.

    Although it certainly appears that the runaway exponential growth based upon strip-mining the planet is headed for some severe series of comeuppances, that human beings and civilization actually did that continued to always be consistent with the laws of nature working through human beings, including through the artificial selection systems developed by civilization. The laws of nature are not going to stop working, and nothing that depends upon those laws of nature is going to stop working.

    It was consistent with the laws of nature that natural selection pressures drove the development of civilization to become based upon the maximum possible deceits and frauds. Furthermore, it will continue to be consistent with the laws of nature when the results of that go through series of psychotic breakdowns, and massive die-offs (mostly kill-offs) of the human population, which refused to change to adapt in any better ways … (perhaps until after that has significantly happened.)

    Since human beings and civilization operate as entropic pumps of environmental energy flows, which match the principles and methods of organized crime, the excessive successfulness of controlling civilization through the applications of the methods of organized crime has resulted in civilization manifesting runaway criminal insanities. Given those social facts, it is possible to sympathize with the pessimists, but only with respect to the most probable finite futures of that civilization.

    At the same time, one can continue to be optimistic, that the laws of nature have never stopped working. The rise of a globalized civilization, operating through electronic money frauds, backed up with weapons of mass destruction, followed the principle of the conservation of energy, and its fall would also be consistent with the principle of the conservation of energy. Indeed, the deeper levels of the tasks before us are to attempt to perhaps better understand ourselves, and the ways that artificial selection systems operate within natural selection systems (or, to put in another, old-fashioned way, how the individual consciousness operates within God.)

    In my view, it tends to be a sterile dead-end to continue to promote pessimistic versus optimistic as a false fundamental dichotomy. Similarly, it does no good to promote the impossible ideals of optimists as the bogus "solutions." Rather, in my view, the better way forward would be to attempt to reconcile the relatively rational evidence and logical arguments that the pessimists have with the transcendental hope which flows from the principle of the conservation of energy.

  • RE says:

    “Ultimately, there is every good reason to believe that the principle of the conservation of energy will continue to work. Furthermore, one may connect that insight to the view that ENERGY IS SPIRIT.”  -BL

    Did you ever read my article "On the Existence of God"?  In that article I proposed the Energy-Gravity-Spirit relationship S=G/E.  The Spirit rises to Infinity as Energy falls to Zero.


    • I just read your article  "On the Existence of God"

      I never noticed that before, since I only started looking at the Doomstead Diner since 2014, after Podcast: Radical Marijuana Part II

      This passage could equally apply to me:

      I keep writing as means to organize what I observe in the world, … I think about it, then I spend each day writing about it. It is a Habit for me.  Except for some short periods on vacations or out in the bush not connected to the internet in the last decade, I have done this EVERY DAY.  Its just a chronicle of figuring it all out for myself.  …

      I have been using the Marijuana Party Web site like that since 2002 …

      In particular I have been using the Party Forum like my personal diary.

      I was brought up as a third generation atheist. However, since I was a teenager I have been engaged in attempting a creative synthesis between post-modernizing science and ancient mysticism, and thus, for several decades, I have been developing that kind of transcendental poetry.

  • A Real Black Person says:

    The concern that hardcore doomers have is not about nuclear weapons, but spent nuclear fuel from nuclear power plants. Spent fuel from nuclear power plants must be kept at a  controlled temperature for years before it can be safely buried underground and sealed.

    How will spent fuel be kept cool without  a functioning electric grid? The amount of power the backup power generators have will only be able to keep the spent fuel cool for  a limited amount of time.


    The scale of the enviornmental degradation that humans have been able to achieve with fossil fuels is still lost upon you because you can't deal with it. You want believe humans are good and will survive anything nature throws at us (and perhaps colonize space, achieve immortality through technology and all that jazz)   The possibility that we are a threat to life of Earth is hurting your self esteem. Boo hoo.

    You are searching for someone to tell you there's good news and that we will make it out okay through the bottleneck. Hardcore doomers are not inclined to say this because there is no evidence that we are making ANY progress towards dealing with the upcoming bottleneck. It’s as if you want someone to say something reassuring, kiss you on the forehead , and hug you.

    My two cents:
    I don't think you have the emotional intelligence to deal with this realistically. Here's some life advice: focus on whatever it is that you do, and focus on selling  false solutions to businessmen. That is what Elon Musk is doing.Ignorance is bliss when it comes to most things. If  happiness is of paramount importance to you and you desperately need to  have hope, you should probably  abandon this topic. Join a religious group and stop looking for hope and salvation in the wrong places.



    • HnH says:

      This is a nihilistic comment, interspersed with some emotional ad hominems, and quite a narrow view on what humanity is and is not capable of. 

      Humankind behaves like every other life form in that it grows until it is checked by external boundaries. Also, humankind has demonstrated a virtually unheard of adaptability to various environments. At the moment, there is virtually no place on earth that has not been colonized.

      Evolution is all about survival of the fittest, as in survival of those species that can best adapt to changing environments. If humankind excels at one single thing, then it is adaptability.

      Looking at female mitochondria, some anthropologists think that, due to a previous bottleneck, all of current 7.4 bln people came out of a gene pool of less than 200 women at some distant point in time.

      However adverse the circumstances will become, can you state with conviction that, out of 7.4 bln people that inhabit virtually all of the planet, not even one or more groups of 50-1000 individuals will have the adaptability to survive even the narrowest of bottlenecks?




      • A Real Black Person says:

        Judging by how  idigenous people are doing around the world, I'd say we are  dimminishing the capacity for humans to survive. Industrial civilization continues to encrouch on their territory destroy their capacity of self-sufficency.

        Humans barely survived the last major bottleneck.

        Human extinction is enevitable but we are doing a lot to speed it up.





  • Froggman says:

    These are some interesting thoughts and observations RE, thanks for writing them down.  It does bother me when I see folks on doomer sites just being unkind to one another.  It reached a fever pitch over at NBL and I think Guy's decision to shut 'er down was the only way to resolve the problem.


    I do get it though.  People are angry and hurt and everyone deals with it differently.  One of the things we've all grappled with in the process of "awakening" is that we've been lied to, constantly.  A lot of those lies revolved around the theme that "everything will still be okay, there is hope, we'll just do xyz thing.". This has made doomers very wary of anyone offering solutions or suggesting that things will be okay.  I think many are also frightened by an uncertain future, so they attach certainty to beliefs that in reality are subject to many variables.

    I don't begrudge anyone their anger or their coping mechanisms.  But I do wish people would be a little more kind to one another.


    • RE says:

      "  It reached a fever pitch over at NBL and I think Guy's decision to shut 'er down was the only way to resolve the problem."

      I was not aware that Guy shut down his commentariat.  I just went over to NBL to check this and it appears you are correct, the last 2 blogs up have the comments shut off.

      That is an interesting development.

      • Etyere Petyere says:


  • AntiTroll says:

    McSerpent and his disciples declare that the best thing for our planet is for humans to go extinct sooner rather than later.

    McSerpent and his disciples are humans.

    Ergo by their own reasoning McSerpent and his disciples should kill themselves immediately.

    Anything else will be a copout and sheer hypocrisy. Get that, EmptyPempty? Why haven't you killed yourself yet?


    • A Real Black Person says:

      Don't be stupid.

      One person killing themselves is not equal to human extinction.

      Other forms of life on Earth would definately be better off without us. This is not something up for debate. It's notmisanthropic to point that out. It is a fact. In fact, anyone who has a problem with the statement "Other forms of life on Earth would definately be better off without us. " I'd accuse of having contempt for other life forms or does such a thing not exist?

      Acknowledging the harm humans have done to other animals———- and to themselves————- doesn't mean someone  is advocating  for an suicide or mass murder.   If humans go extinct in the next 200 years it is  very likely that it will be due the  environmental degradation that has become possible since industrialization.

      I'm not sure why people need to see themselves as agents of good in the world. Most of the outrage here can be summed up as "How dare you hold a negative opinion of the human race! I'm not a bad person! Neither are my friends and famiy!"

      • RE says:

        It is one thing to acknowledge that Homo Sap does a lot of damage, but is entirely a different thing to WANT Homo Sap to DIE ASAP.

        Did you ever happen to run into Pat on NBL?  The Voluntary Human Extinction guy?  I'm  like, "Good Grief Pat, if this is what you believe WTF don't you off yourself TODAY!"


        • Yorchichan says:

          I don't recall an overiding sentiment of wanting Homo Sap to go extinct either on NBL or OFW. At NBL the sentiment was anti white male and anti industrial civilization. Belief in NTHE was compulsory but desire for NTHE wasn't. I never understood why you, Bud Nye and others continued to post there given the abuse you inevitably received.

          At OFW, Fast Eddy has stated words to the effect that humans deserve to go extinct due to the damage they've wrought to the environment and the way they treat other animals. However, he also advocates partying hard now due to his belief in near term collapse. The latter at least doesn't sound too misanthropic to me. Some others at OFW might agree with him, but many do not.

          What I don't see at OFW is the cowardly gang rape against anyone not towing the official narrative so common on NBL. Nobody posting on OFW receives the kind of abuse you did on NBL and there is no cultish in-group on OFW. Your attempt to liken the OFW commentariat to that of NBL is unfair.

        • A Real Black Person says:

          "Phasing out the human race by voluntarily ceasing to breed" is not the same thing as  suicide or mass murder.

          The real question is why does this fringe movement bother you so much that you wish this person would kill himself? Why does the idea of people volunteering to not procreate BOTHER you…unless you're harboring hopes that your genes will get passed on forever.


          You must have  grandchildren. You must want the family line to continue so desperately that you're threatened by  a frindge movement. C'mon, spill the beans. You're taking this VERY personal. YOu might as well say why.

          • RE says:

            Sorry, you lose.  No kids, no grandkids.

            I'm not threatened by these folks, I just think they are idiots.  On the species level, it's like voluntarily ending your life, aka suicide.  I'm not a fan of suicide either.  What good reason is there for  Homo Sap to voluntarily extinguish itself?  In the end the planet is going to die anyhow no matter what.  Why not live as long as we can to see another sunrise?

    • Etyere Petyere says:

      I am on a fieldtrip mr Ant checking on the advancement of the extinction process here in old Urópa folks have no clue just like yourself who is just somewhat or partially clueless they  are living the good life but the weather is cooking hot now they are installing airconditioning systems to counteract  it sooner than later it will dawn on them that this is not a working model to mitigate thats just about the time when you yourself will realise it

    • Etyere Petyere says:

      Mr ANT-i ! here it is for you .and now  go back to your ant hill .

  • RE says:

    " I never understood why you, Bud Nye and others continued to post there given the abuse you inevitably received. " -Y

    I can't speak for BN, but I keep posting if something bothers me about the spin on a given website.  I persisted in posting and writing articles on The Burning Platform about 2 years before Jimbo Quinn finally shit-canned me for good.

    Far as your perception of the sentiment on NBL or OFW goes, that is your perception.  Besides myself, at least 2 other Diners have the perception that NBL is a complete sewer of Nihilism, and that OFW is walking down the same path in the commentariat.


  • AntiTroll says:

    Q: what do you call the death of 100 lawyers?

    A: a good start

    of course the death of a few NBL cultists is not equivalent to extinction but it will be a good start. Fact is, McSerpent and his disciples are only keen to promote the death of humans so long as it does not involve themselves. Now that's hypocrisy. The disclaimer on the NBL home page that they discourage suicide is pure bullshit because that is just about all they talk about on NBL, including McSerpent's "buddhist" statement that people should think about dying with every breath in and out. Pure death cult.

    • A Real Black Person says:

      Just come out and say you're  pro-life and you think one of life's great goals is to procreate according to your beliefs. This would explain the lack of evidence  about "McSerpent "being at the head of a death cult and your hostility to  a fringe concept in a world where human population is still growing exponentially.


      Discouraging procreation is a crime according to your religious beliefs. Just come out and say it.

  • Mike H says:

    I can agree with your comments about the direction some persons take with respect to our situation and predicament as a species. I have found who is most correct and the chestbeating, allegorical pouting and uncivilised discourse on many other web-blogs tiresome to say the least. It is not helped by reason that there a  lot of facts muddles and then jumbles and as for forecasts they are as valid as those of the establishment technocrats in thrall to BAU. I certainly would not elevate any of these persons to a role in my life where I absolve my self of self reliance and responsibility to their misplace prognostications and pronouncements. The are but simple fools. I certainly would not disagree that the MC of any blog has a right to their views and their opinions but that is all, if the opinion tally's with known facts and good evidence (empirical and intuitive) then fine but when it departs into value laden conjecture or misplaced fantacism then it is of no use to anyone because to have a reasonable life is going to require you keep your faculties functioning and keep your mind open. The Diner does that job more than well it does so in a way that you get a very good handle on some quite esoteric issues. Reality is that we are now in the age of limits and straight line mathematical analysis is not going to hold or make sense of what is happening. Yes a lot of people are going to suffer, yes all the structures and systems that we have put in place to provide livable communities are going to change dramtically (is that failure?), yes the industrial life style cannot be maintained and yes where you live will become unliveable, other places maybe not so. The time to do something collectively to change our way of life and the demands we place on this planet passed decades ago, now we live the outcome of the law of unitended consequences, GM et al are not the only madmen loose on the planet. 

  • A Real Black Person says:

    "Sorry, you lose.  No kids, no grandkids."


    Bullshit.  You're telling me that you have no emotional investment in the continuation of the human race as a

    species? No friends? No friends with children you'd like to see go to college…and start a family and continue your cultural tradtions?

    "I'm not threatened by these folks,"

    You have yet to prove that you aren't.

    "I just think they are idiots. "

    Yes, of course they are. You are just having a rational disagreement with them.

    This is why the body of your essay, titled "Nihilism, Misanthropy & Misery Metasticize"  contains a coherent,

    rational argument for why humans don't deserve to go extinct and voluntary non-procreation should be scorned and

    defined as suicide. No where to be found is an emotional response in your essay.

    "On the species level, it's like voluntarily ending your life, aka suicide.  " What is worse, deliberately trying

    to end your life  in or doing harmful things to yourself, that  and others,knowingly, that will result in you dying

    prematurely ?

    "I'm not a fan of suicide either.  What good reason is there for  Homo Sap to voluntarily extinguish itself? "

    So far, it's a tiny group of people who are deciding to persue this goal. There is no way they will succeed. At

    most, and this is extremely unlikely, they will lower the birthrate.

    The idea of not having children is unpopular, universally, never mind voluntary human extinction.  You must be threatened by  voluntarily because your response to it is disproportinate to what its current and potentially future impact is,which is percisely, nothing.

    "In the end the planet is going to die anyhow no matter what.  "

    Humans will drive themselves to extinction with their current activity and it's very unikely that  humans  can stop.

    ruining the Earth's capacity to support them,  and other lifeforms, without a lot of people dying anyway.

    So, why do you care what a tiny group of people decide to do to themselves ?

    "Why not live as long as we can to see another sunrise?"

    To put things in the perspective , We're already doing that as a species. We're trying to keep as many people alive as possible.
    What are you worried about a tiny group of people ,doomed to fail at their goal, do?

    Are you worried  about a tiny group of people ,doomed to fail at their goal,  because you think your hope of avoiding the bottleneck is futile, as well?



    • RE says:

      "Bullshit.  You're telling me that you have no emotional investment in the continuation of the human race as a

      species? No friends? No friends with children you'd like to see go to college…and start a family and continue your cultural tradtions?"  -RBP

      You just made the wrongheaded prognostication that I had kids and grandkids in the last screed.  You didn't say anything about friends.  I have a few of those.  How long they will live is how long they will live.  Nobody gets any guarantee on tread life walking the earth.  Some people run until the tires are bald at 90,000 miles, others get a Blowout at 40,000 miles.  In any event, I will likely buy my Ticket to the Great Beyond before my friends.  They are mostly younger than me and in better health.

      Insofar as "maintaining cultural traditions" and a college education goes, you obviously are not familiar with my writings on these topics.  I'll have an article up on this in a couple of weeks.  Next week I have a Part II for this one titled "Surfing the Negative Waves".  🙂


  • Eugene says:

    Personally, I am amused at folks who insist on being positive.  I figure there were some on the Titanic who were still insisting "someone will save us" as the water lapped around their ankles. But those in the industrialized countries, America most of all" can take great comfort in being positive. Untold millions have lived miserable lives and died for us.   I assume the most positive are those who have lived comfortable lives, in a safe environment, not abused in any way and will, naturally, find enormous difficulty in facing a future, that may not be wonderful.  I don't partake of doomer sites nor do enjoy the endless rant of "think positive"people since from my life experience, they haven't had the shit kicked out of them one or more times in life. 

    Frankly, I see humans as an animal and like all animals when the resource base is exceeded, a correction will take place which in many cases is extinction.  We out ran our resouce base long yrs ago. Consequently, I view extinction as well within the realm of possibilities. In all honesty, I don't care. I don't have some locked in panic at the thought nor do I feel a need to believe "some of us will survive, somewhere".

    I do not see McPherson as "humans need to die and soon" person. My read he simply says "it's a done deal.  Do your best to live as best you can".  And who knows, maybe the rising messiah (Trump) will, by god, fix it all. 

    In a bit, I'll have my afternoon drink and take a nap. 


  • RE says:

    " Frankly, I see humans as an animal and like all animals when the resource base is exceeded, a correction will take place which in many cases is extinction. " -EG

    Nobody disputes this.  The questions are whether it will be a Knockdown & Bottleneck or an Extinction Level Event and what the Timeline is on it.


  • AntiTroll says:

    Bottom line: none of the comments by you Nihilists are of any fucking use. Do we face die-off? Yes, but let's make the best of a bad situation which is what RE is trying to do, who is offering useful advice and who I support. Those who wallow in misery and promote early extinction should kill themselves to be consistent with their incesant whining

    • Etyere Petyere says:

      here is another nihilists comment  now you can go back into your ant hill 

    • A Real Black Person says:

      The only whining I've seen has been from people like you and RE who are complaining about how the nihilists are making you sad because they aren't providing you with a sense of hope . At least, Fast Eddy has a sense of humor about it all, unlike the people who want tenderness , hope , kindness, and "useful advice"  when discussing collapse.

      There's a specific website I go to find "useful advice" and it's not here. I can't really use most of the advice  on it because I, like most people who don't live in gated communities, can't afford  to drop off the grid.  Renewables are products for the wealthy.  There are occassional news articles with a token poor person, an African or a  resident of North Korea posing with a  solar panel in an attempt to prove otherwise but they are jus tthat, photo-ops. It is easier for areas that never had reliable electricity to adopt solar panels to charge their cellphones. Judging by Reverse Engineer's recent posts on Gails " Overly Simple Energy-Economy Models Give Misleading Answers" blog post, Reverse Engineer is carrying the torch for the renewables as some sort of solution. Reverse Engineer also seems to  think reducing population to a sustainable will allow humans (Caucasian Europeans) to keep their industrial  societies from collapsing. In the words of Fast Eddy," BAU-lite".  Reverse Engineer has no understanding of the points Gail and other doomers are making.  Reverse Engineer is  like the majority of people out there . The majority of people are lemmings. They would all  walk off a cliff if they were told by their friends and family that nothing bad would happen to them or anyone. Since believing in solutions is popular socially, the majority of them  think "we will think of something". It wouldn't surprise me if   Reverse Engineer turned out to be a recently  exiled poster who went by the name" Pokemon." from Gail's  OurFinite World blog. He, too, had a hard time aceepting industrial civilization was unsustainable as well.




      • RE says:

        Your ability to misinterpret virtually everything I write is absolutely astounding.  You have taken the inability to read for comprehension to entirely new levels heretofore not seen on planet earth.


  • Christian says:

    Great work, RE, I like the pics very much also. I'd only add that you could also develop the ethnocentrism issue. There are a few thousands people, mainly scattered in the tropical forests, that never plugged to BAU. These people give a fuck about oil, banks, governments, kwh and sometimes even iron. But nihilists/misanthropes are unable to see them as homo saps, they are nothing for them. Of course it is very unlikely that those guys and ladies, living in the jungle, will go extinct. And of course they do not harm very much other animal species, as any remnant of us, industrialized people, wont be able to do it neither. But both points are entirely missing in extinction analysis, it's like they think that humans can only happen to be like them, that there is no other way to be human

    If you want, I'll send you a short fiction story I wrote about spent fuel pools, I think you are the kind of person who could like it

    • RE says:

      You can submit any blog to me for publication on the Diner Forum or through the contact form here on the Blog.


  • Ken Barrows says:

    We are reindeer on St. Matthew's Island who have the ability to talk.

  • Froggman says:

    Dear RE,

    Something I've been thinking about a lot and am trying to explore on my own blog is that I believe we're really dealing with 2 different things here:

    1. One is the hopelessness of the situation on a global scale, and how this will translate to us locally in a material sense.

    2. The other is the attitude we take towards our own specific circumstances here in the world- which is really at the individual level (nihilism, the comfort of religion, etc).  

    I think there is a lot of mixing up of these two things when that isn't necessary if we apply a flexible and nuanced mindset.

    The reality is that most of the evidence in the area of #1 points to unavoidable disaster.  When I survey the conditions of the world, look at the projections by people who really know what they're talking about, and consider the track record of humanity, I see little hope that anything on the global scale will happen to "save" us from collapse, even if it was economically or politically feasible.

    However, it's also true that we have a great deal of control over ourselves as individuals and to a lesser extent our local circumstances.  We can choose to "do" a great many things regardless of how helpful or futile they might be (prep, train for war, meditate, find inner peace).

    The problem comes when well meaning people confuse these two.  Uber-doomers know that the world is doomed and will rightly debate people who sell unworkable solutions to save the world (#1) but can go too far pushing nihilism or preaching a particular lifestyle, which is the realm of #2.

    Likewise, Light-doomers who should be focusing on #2, how they personally and locally will cope with collapse and try to make the most of thier lives, go astray when they take what should be local or personal approaches and project them onto a global scale where they aren't really appropriate or realistic (the whole world will all just magically agree to a one child policy, recycling, and using draft animals in communitarian utopia).

    And there we have a vicious circle.  The uber-doomer shoots down an unrealistically hopeful plan for saving the world, and implies that the light-doomer should abandon all hope and curl up and die.  The light-doomer rejects this nihilism and instead of arguing the point at the personal/local level, instead pushes harder on some other "save the world" pitch.

    Round and round she goes…

    Mostly good people, trying to make sense of a senseless world, and inevitably devolving into petty argument.

  • Pingback: Surfing the Negative Waves – Doomstead Diner

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

Knarf plays the Doomer Blues

Support the Diner
Search the Diner
Surveys & Podcasts


Renewable Energy


" As a daily reader of all of the doomsday blogs, e.g. the Diner, Nature Bats Last, Zerohedge, Scribbler, etc… I must say that I most look forward to your “off the microphone” rants. Your analysis, insights, and conclusions are always logical, well supported, and clearly articulated – a trifecta not frequently achieved."- Joe D
Global Diners

View Full Diner Stats

Global Population Stats

Enter a Country Name for full Population & Demographic Statistics

Lake Mead Watch


Inside the Diner

"Blue Collar" vs "White Collar" is a Class distinction more than a monetary distinction. When I graduated, TPTB had spent billions creating an oversupply of dentists, with the idea that it would drive the price of services d...

(NOTE: This will be the LAST edition of the DDD for about a week. Your editor will be traveling, and time and bandwidth and will be issues.)...

Quote from: K-Dog on November 17, 2018, 01:46:35 PMThe answer to what flavor of bullshit they will choose, chocolate or vanilla, will be picked on what helps them out the most.  Trump promises bull and the Dems don't promise anyt...

Quote from: RE on November 17, 2018, 06:42:33 PMToday for another real Pig Out consumption of food on Thanksgivi...

Recent Facebook Posts
Diner Twitter feed

Knarf’s Knewz

Quote from: Eddie on March 13, 2018, 05:21:10 PMAl [...]

Quote from: knarf on March 13, 2018, 03:33:01 PMAU [...]

Quote from: knarf on March 13, 2018, 03:25:04 PM [...]

A new study found that the Great Recession correla [...]

From 2003 to 2005, Gina Haspel was a senior offici [...]

Diner Newz Feeds
  • Surly
  • Agelbert
  • Knarf
  • Golden Oxen
  • Frostbite Falls

Quote from: Eddie on November 14, 2018, 09:36:18 A [...]

It’s time to break up wealth dynasties in the U.S. [...]

DNA Tests Prove Aboriginal Australians Are the Wor [...]

[img width=800] [...]

Midterm Elections and the Divider in ChiefNovember [...]

In Conversation: Elizabeth Warren and Robert Reich [...]

Quote from: Eddie on March 13, 2018, 05:21:10 PMAl [...]

Quote from: knarf on March 13, 2018, 03:33:01 PMAU [...]

Quote from: knarf on March 13, 2018, 03:25:04 PM [...]

A new study found that the Great Recession correla [...]

From 2003 to 2005, Gina Haspel was a senior offici [...]

My Dear Friends at the Diner, Rest assured that I [...]

Quote from: RE on November 01, 2018, 04:57:07 AMbr [...]

brown-nose/ˈbrounˌnōz/informalverbgerund or presen [...]

Ashvin is back for a day or two and we have a foru [...]

Quote from: Eddie on October 23, 2018, 01:57:08 PM [...]

Quote from: Nearingsfault on November 17, 2018, 05 [...]

Quote from: Nearingsfault on November 17, 2018, 05 [...]

I've been playing around lately with my own m [...]

I have found the best source of cheap fuel for my [...]

Alternate Perspectives
  • Two Ice Floes
  • Jumping Jack Flash
  • Error

A Few Screws Loose By Cognitive Dissonance     Twice a year, usually in the spring and fall, I haul [...]

The Honor Box By Cognitive Dissonance   It is commonly said the fish rots from the head down, meanin [...]

Animal Spirits and Over Extended Markets By Cognitive Dissonance     Animal spirits is the term John [...]

  (Edit: I've tried to write on this subject for a while now and failed, realizing I would not, [...]

Mother Nature Shows Off Her Stuff By Cognitive Dissonance     Mrs. Cog and I live on the edge of the [...]

Event Update For 2018-11-15 [...]

Event Update For 2018-11-14 [...]

Event Update For 2018-11-13 [...]

Event Update For 2018-11-12 [...]

Event Update For 2018-11-11 [...]

RSS Error: This XML document is invalid, likely due to invalid characters. XML error: not well-formed (invalid token) at line 18, column 9800

Daily Doom Photo


  • Peak Surfer
  • SUN
  • Transition Voice

Indio Hatuey"Cuban agriculture has moved beyond carbon neutral and into drawdown territory."Worm Farm, [...]

Hope from Havana"We need to ditch consumer culture in favor of conserver culture. Cuba knows how to do this. [...]

Why Permaculture Puts Food First"Had we heeded Malthus’s warning and kept the human population to less than one billion, we wou [...]

"Call it the Third Middle East Oil Shock." The controversy swirling around murdered Saudi [...]

"“It has been a disappointment to me that so many people, including all too many environmentali [...]

The folks at Windward have been doing great work at living sustainably for many years now.  Part of [...]

 The Daily SUN☼ Building a Better Tomorrow by Sustaining Universal Needs April 3, 2017 Powering Down [...]

Off the keyboard of Bob Montgomery Follow us on Twitter @doomstead666 Friend us on Facebook Publishe [...]

Visit SUN on Facebook Here [...]

To fight climate change, you need to get the world off of fossil fuels. And to do that, you need to [...]

Americans are good on the "thoughts and prayers" thing. Also not so bad about digging in f [...]

In the echo-sphere of political punditry consensus forms rapidly, gels, and then, in short order…cal [...]

Discussions with figures from Noam Chomsky and Peter Senge to Thich Nhat Hanh and the Dalai Lama off [...]

Lefty Greenies have some laudable ideas. Why is it then that they don't bother to really build [...]

Top Commentariats
  • Our Finite World
  • Economic Undertow

'And, having taken the wealth of all the capitalists, we will then be able to the buy all the b [...]

Pollution, from the tar sands, on a vast scale, so 'vibrant'. The use of words, as ever, t [...]

Question: should all EV and solar panel owners be sterilized to prevent the gene pool from deteriora [...]

Speaking of Japan, this is their take on collapse-related issues: [...]

What do you think about this from Brandon Smith? What about the energy costs of trying to run the wo [...]

Capitalism (the god they all pray to) says right there in the scriptures that "oil will get so [...] Here's anothe [...] I mean seriously! Here's a [...]

Interesting that you mention the situation in Venezuela. While their government may be incapable of [...]

RE Economics

Going Cashless

Off the keyboard of RE Follow us on Twitter @doomstead666...

Simplifying the Final Countdown

Off the keyboard of RE Follow us on Twitter @doomstead666...

Bond Market Collapse and the Banning of Cash

Off the microphone of RE Follow us on Twitter @doomstead666...

Do Central Bankers Recognize there is NO GROWTH?

Discuss this article @ the ECONOMICS TABLE inside the...

Singularity of the Dollar

Off the Keyboard of RE Follow us on Twitter @doomstead666...

Kurrency Kollapse: To Print or Not To Print?

Off the microphone of RE Follow us on Twitter @doomstead666...


Off the microphone of RE Follow us on Twitter @doomstead666...

Of Heat Sinks & Debt Sinks: A Thermodynamic View of Money

Off the keyboard of RE Follow us on Twitter @doomstead666...

Merry Doomy Christmas

Off the keyboard of RE Follow us on Twitter @doomstead666...

Peak Customers: The Final Liquidation Sale

Off the keyboard of RE Follow us on Twitter @doomstead666...

Collapse Fiction
Useful Links
Technical Journals
Follow on our