AuthorTopic: An Old Argument in Collapse Space - Who is to Blame?  (Read 10909 times)

Offline widgeon

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An Old Argument in Collapse Space - Who is to Blame?
« on: November 18, 2012, 01:32:19 PM »
On on-going theme here and elsewhere in the collapse-o'sphere is "who's to blame" for the situation industrialized society finds itself in; the elite PTB or the J6P consumers.

I've always lain the blame at the feet of the elite orchestrators instead of "their customers" - because at some level it always seemed to me that they had (or should have) the means & knowledge to see and understand the situation for what it really is, viz the J6P that are really just trying to get along one pay check at a time.  Probably I see it this way because of the community and circumstances of my youth.

I don't give the acquisitiveness of the last 30 years by J6P types a break - they tried to have something that so many can't have on this limited sphere.  And their greed got the best of them, that's a fact.  But, TPTB put the circumstances in place to cause that to happen.

One thing that the last decade has stripped away is all of the smoke and confusion ... the real circumstances and TRUTH are easy to see now compared to 20-30 years ago.

Here is the best example of why "the blame" needs to rest with the elites and not w/ J6P ... Higher Education & Student Loans.

Isn't it clear that TPTB have "designed" a system (on purpose) the strip mine the lives of young people?  I just don't blame the J6P's for that system.  It is not criminal or wrong or greedy or selfish to want to better yourself through education - that is a normal and healthy human drive.  TPTB have taken that natural urge and made it into a tool for financial enslavement.  Who is to blame for that?  It's Obvious.

Offline RE

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Re: An Old Argument in Collapse Space - Who is to Blame?
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2012, 04:13:38 PM »
I think assigning the blame is easy. Get a group of these together and no other blame is required, it is just obvious.



IMHO, Sarcastic People are to Blame.  :icon_mrgreen:

Anyhow, blaming Fat People, Boomers and the People of Walmart is SOP over on TBP, however I doubt it will fly too well here.

The people to blame are those who ran/run the show for their own self-aggrandizement at the expense of everybody else.  How much blame you get depends on just how much power and control you have over the system.  Historically speaking, you could drop a huge part of the Industrialization of the FSofA on the back of John D. Rockefeller, and over in Europe you could drop a huge part of the blame for expanding Financialism on the back of Mayer Rothschild.  However, these two guys have plenty of spiritual heirs running around today, so since these two are no longer around to Pay the Piper we will have to make do with their entire Family Lines along with the Family Line of everyone who attended Bilderberg 2012 which should make for a pretty good Start to the Inquisition.

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Offline widgeon

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Re: An Old Argument in Collapse Space - Who is to Blame?
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2012, 05:08:25 PM »
Really, my point for making this thread was to highlight the student loan debacle in the making as the indisputable example that clearly illuminates who is to blame; a system designed and manipulated for debt-serf enslavement ... on purpose and by design.  The "students" didn't design that.


Offline RE

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Re: An Old Argument in Collapse Space - Who is to Blame?
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2012, 06:48:13 PM »
Really, my point for making this thread was to highlight the student loan debacle in the making as the indisputable example that clearly illuminates who is to blame; a system designed and manipulated for debt-serf enslavement ... on purpose and by design.  The "students" didn't design that.

While the Student Loan situation is a particularly egregious form of Debt Slavery which emerged over the last 40 years or so, it really just follows on the heels of the Home Mortgage Biz which encouraged every GI coming back from WWII to take ona Federally Guaranteed Mortgage for a Tract House in Levittown.

In the case of the Mcmansions, you really just were Second Class if you were a Renter in the post-WWII years.  Only "failures" didn't "own" their domiciles.  I made the mistake once of buying a Condo while I was married, what a fucking headache!  Getting it sold off when we got divorced was a pain in the butt.

For the Silents who did pay off these mortgages in the ever expanding economy of the Boom years, they lucked out for sure there.  Just about anybody who took out a Mortgage though from say 1990 onward who didn't get out by 2006 or so at best has not done any better than Renting for the same period.  Many are still actually underwater, and owe more than the McMansion is now worth.

In order to become a participant in Gatekept Professions which pay the Big Bucks, any kid who was NOT the Scion of an elite family that could pay the Tuition out of Pocket Change hadda take loans out up the Kazoo here as time went by.  Again, early on in this game it Paid Off in many cases.  When I went to Columbia, the total debt I hadda take on was not all that huge, and had I not been spending the megabucks I was making on Wall Street in the first 2 years in other ways (stuffing the noses of Joffrey Dancers with Coke), I could have paid it off then easily.  Instead, it haunted me for a decade after that, until I finally wised up, used my income to pay off the College Loan while running up the Credit Card.  So I traded Secured Debt I could never escape from into Unsecured Debt I could. :)  Then when things really went South for me, I declared BK and got out from under all of it.  Never went into debt again after that, always lived beneath my means.  never bought anything ever again on Credit, CASH only.  No new cars, only Used Ones.  My 1987 Toyota Tercel 4WD I bought in 1996 for $1500 lasted me about 7 years.  The 1989 Jeep Wagonneer LTD  I bought after that in PRISTINE condition with only 50K miles on it from a Little Old Lady friend of my mom's at the Senior Center for $3500 I STILL OWN, it sits in my Storage Unit in Springfield, MO.


When  arrived by Airplane in Alaska with 5 Bags of my Carry-with-you Possession from my Trucking Years, I bought another 1980s vintage vehicle, a 1987 Toyota Pickup Rustbucket for $500.  Lasted me a year, then I bought a 1989 Mazda MPV 4WD minivan which I STILL OWN for $900.  I finally got out of the 80s with vehicles a couple of years ago and bought another PRISTINE 2002 Ford Explorer SUV for $5K.  My BIG Bugout Machine, the Tioga RV is another 1980s Vintage Vehicle I picked up for $5K with only 45K original miles on it.

Anyhow, the Automobile was yet another way of expanding debt to the general population, which expanded the money supply and made all the Waste possible, as well as making it possible for the Financial Class to sieve off ENORMOUS wealth from the ever expanding Industrial Economy.  Remaining OUTSIDE this debt system was difficult to impossible for most people, at least if you wanted to Bootstrap yourself up into the "middle class" from Poverty.   Without the Sheepskin, ya can't get the High Paying Job.  Without the nice McMansion in a "good" neighborhood, your kids go to crappy warhouse schools.  Without the nice NEW car,  ya can't hang with the other Up & Comers or attract the Quality Female of your dreams.  Only if you were willing to give ALL of that up could you stay out of debt, and so I did.  Most folks did not of course, because the Ads PROMISED them, for everything you ever wanted but could not afford, there was VISA!

Are the people who ran UP those Credit Cards the RESPONSIBLE ones?  NO.  the people who ISSUED them are.  They KNEW this money could never be paid back, just as they knew Subprime Mortgages never could be.  By encouraging people to take on this debt though, they made themselves RICH beyond all measure, more than any Pharoah or King ever was.

A Bil of Goods was SOLD to the general population, that Infinite Growth and Infinite Wealth was possible for all.  EVERYONE could live the Lifestyle of the Rich & Famous.  Here is your VISA to Prosperity!  Typical J6P, DUMBER than ROCKS believed it.  Who is responsible when SMART people PREY on the STUPIDITY of others?  Rhetorical Question.

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Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: An Old Argument in Collapse Space - Who is to Blame?
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2012, 07:36:25 PM »
Student debt can hardly be the fault of impulsive 19 to 24 year olds with no idea what to do with their life, or even if they do there may or may not be a job in their field at the end.

J6P is responsible for his debts. He wants a big house instead of a small one, and a new car every two years. and whats more important his personal pollution, but not the pollution of his workplace he can not control.

They buy 3 ton SUV's to drive to work, dont take trains or bikes, run aircons at all hours. Will not eat ethically, Riot for their jobs and pensions but not to protect the planet. Guilty for my verdict.
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Offline monsta666

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Re: An Old Argument in Collapse Space - Who is to Blame?
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2012, 08:14:41 PM »
I think everyone to some degree is culpable; everyone has a choice. Saying that, most of the blame must be centred on the ones who run the show. They have the knowledge and the resources to know otherwise but instead they use this knowledge/resources to take advantage of those less fortunate. It should be noted however that the ones who should know better remain ignorant.

I do believe there are many CEOs of big multinationals who believe in infinite growth and all the baloney that goes with it. I think you can include some (not all) top government officials in this. Sure they may have got a briefing from someone about the follies of industrial society described on this forum but since it is only a briefing they do not take it seriously or apply it to their day-to-day thinking. I say this last point because I have found when telling people about these issues they may agree with me but give it a few weeks and it is as if I never told them about it. Cognitive dissonance is strong and so are the social cues that say everything is fine. It works on J6P splendidly but it is also works on some of the top brass. It is like that saying: if you tell a lie enough times it will become the truth. Does this ignorance make them less responsible for their actions? No. It just proves they are ignorant.

I think there are less people who are truly in the know than we think. The vast majority of these top people are driven by greed, power, need to fit in or some other basic emotion. To me it would seem like the train is riderless or is driven by some monkey who is beating away at the controls using nothing but basic instincts. You know what the result will be but you don't know when the big crash will come.

Offline RE

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Re: An Old Argument in Collapse Space - Who is to Blame?
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2012, 08:18:45 PM »
Student debt can hardly be the fault of impulsive 19 to 24 year olds with no idea what to do with their life, or even if they do there may or may not be a job in their field at the end.

J6P is responsible for his debts. He wants a big house instead of a small one, and a new car every two years. and whats more important his personal pollution, but not the pollution of his workplace he can not control.

They buy 3 ton SUV's to drive to work, dont take trains or bikes, run aircons at all hours. Will not eat ethically, Riot for their jobs and pensions but not to protect the planet. Guilty for my verdict.

I don't absolve people from GUILT here just cause they are STUPID.  However, there are LEVELS of Guilt, and the J6P who borrowed money to buy a McMansion is not NEAR as guility as a Vulture Capitalist who borrowed money to do a Hostile Takeover of a company and strip mine the assets for his own self-aggrandizement Gordon Gekko style.

I am OK with assigning average J6P Debtor a few years of mucking out cesspools in the 3rd World as Penintence.  My main concern though is with those TRULY RESPONSIBLE for HIGH CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY, the BIGGEST DEBTORS of all, the TYCOONS who built this whole infrastructure up on DEBT they created out of thin air and then foisted off on J6P, Privatizing the Profits while Soicalizing the Losses.

For such High Crimes Against Humanity, sorry just isn't GOOD enough, and neither is scrubbing out cesspools either.  These folks just GOTTA GO here to the Great Beyond.
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Offline monsta666

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Re: An Old Argument in Collapse Space - Who is to Blame?
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2012, 08:34:51 PM »
I don't absolve people from GUILT here just cause they are STUPID.  However, there are LEVELS of Guilt, and the J6P who borrowed money to buy a McMansion is not NEAR as guility as a Vulture Capitalist who borrowed money to do a Hostile Takeover of a company and strip mine the assets for his own self-aggrandizement Gordon Gekko style.

I am OK with assigning average J6P Debtor a few years of mucking out cesspools in the 3rd World as Penintence.  My main concern though is with those TRULY RESPONSIBLE for HIGH CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY, the BIGGEST DEBTORS of all, the TYCOONS who built this whole infrastructure up on DEBT they created out of thin air and then foisted off on J6P, Privatizing the Profits while Soicalizing the Losses.

For such High Crimes Against Humanity, sorry just isn't GOOD enough, and neither is scrubbing out cesspools either.  These folks just GOTTA GO here to the Great Beyond.

What about those who do not take part in the crimes directly but were a big beneficiary to them. For example the wife's of the said pigmen. Some will clearly know what is going on and encourage it but then there are others who are less aware of the details and believe the husbands spin on why they are productive members of society. What amount of responsibility and guilt can be laid upon them?

Offline RE

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Re: An Old Argument in Collapse Space - Who is to Blame?
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2012, 08:47:26 PM »

What about those who do not take part in the crimes directly but were a big beneficiary to them. For example the wife's of the said pigmen. Some will clearly know what is going on and encourage it but then there are others who are less aware of the details and believe the husbands spin on why they are productive members of society. What amount of responsibility and guilt can be laid upon them?

Bad choice in who to Marry, bad luck in who to be born to.  Experience of poor people from time imemmorial.

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When the Grey Hair is dead, Magua will eat his heart. Before he dies, Magua will put his children under the knife, so the Grey Hair will know his seed is wiped out forever.

The Bill has come due. Time for the Illuminati to Pay da Bill.  In BLOOD.  No other currency does Justice to the High Crimes Against Humanity.

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Offline Snowleopard

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Re: An Old Argument in Collapse Space - Who is to Blame?
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2012, 09:09:40 PM »
Here is the best example of why "the blame" needs to rest with the elites and not w/ J6P ... Higher Education & Student Loans.

Isn't it clear that TPTB have "designed" a system (on purpose) the strip mine the lives of young people?  I just don't blame the J6P's for that system.  It is not criminal or wrong or greedy or selfish to want to better yourself through education - that is a normal and healthy human drive.  TPTB have taken that natural urge and made it into a tool for financial enslavement.  Who is to blame for that?  It's Obvious.

If the point was to educate the deserving, either scolarships could be granted from endowment and other funds; or where such funds were lacking, a student could agree to pay the school a set percentage of his pay for ten years or so.  This would eliminate the need for most student debt, reduce unnecessary programs since the school would share the risk, and discourage those there mainly for the social experience.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 09:13:21 PM by Snowleopard »
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Offline widgeon

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Re: An Old Argument in Collapse Space - Who is to Blame?
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2012, 04:39:39 AM »
There are lots of ways an ethical & moral system could have used to 'design' a just higher education/student loan system.  The fact that they designed and implemented what they did points clearly to their culpability and purpose.

Yes, in the past decades there have been other credit crimes including real estate, autos, etc. - these remained effectively hidden in the "good" economy, etc.  Nonetheless, even at there worst these were never pushed to the limit that the student loan game is being pushed ... non-dischargeable, targeting the young & naive, etc.

Similar abuses are rampant in the elder care/nursing home world where there is literally an industry whose model is to strip mine every asset their "customers" own and many laws are in place to facilitate this and prevent and entrap families from protecting themselves.


Offline RE

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Re: An Old Argument in Collapse Space - Who is to Blame?
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2012, 07:35:55 PM »

The people to blame are those who ran/run the show for their own self-aggrandizement at the expense of everybody else.  How much blame you get depends on just how much power and control you have over the system. 

Basically an OWS claim on steroids?

More like Robespierre on Steroids.  The main failure of the Reign of Terror was it didn't go far enough.  Robespierre couldn't reach out past the borders of France to Exterminate the Vermin, so most of the Roaches escaped.  Not this time.  Nowhere to Run, Nowhere to Hide.

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Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: An Old Argument in Collapse Space - Who is to Blame?
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2012, 07:52:31 PM »
Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide? I can Just see you sledding across Alaska and Canada down through New England to NYC going door to door and floor to floor through Wall St bulletproof and bombproof like the terminator after sarah connor.
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Offline RE

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Re: An Old Argument in Collapse Space - Who is to Blame?
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2012, 09:22:34 PM »
Nowhere to run and nowhere to hide? I can Just see you sledding across Alaska and Canada down through New England to NYC going door to door and floor to floor through Wall St bulletproof and bombproof like the terminator after sarah connor.

Come with me if you want to LIVE!

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