AuthorTopic: Catch-22 of the Doomsteader Paradox  (Read 1021 times)

Offline RE

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Catch-22 of the Doomsteader Paradox
« on: April 22, 2018, 02:18:04 AM »


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Published on the Doomstead Diner on April 22, 2018






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The name for the blog Doomstead Diner comes from my early years of recognizing what the problems were with Industrial Civilization on the PeakOil.com forum.  I developed a cartoon strip with another denizen of that forum, Flapjax who did the artwork and I wrote the scripts for it.  It was a parody of several other regulars of the period who appeared as characters in the strip, including a self-parody of myself of course as well. lol. I'm the one in the panel above field dressing a Moose.



Back in those days, "Doomsteading" or setting up a survival location for making it through the Zero Point and the Collapse of Industrial Civilization was a very popular topic.  Numerous members of the forum had Doomsteads of one size or another, from as compact as 1/4 Acre "Urban Doomsteads" right up to the 1000 Acre variety that a few Rich Fucks boasted about.  Never quite sure of course if they were actually  telling the truth or just had a vivid imagination on what they wished they had.  I did meet a few IRL though, Pops was one who had a small 20 acre Dairy Farm in Missouri near where my sister lives.  Mostly though, I had to figure out how much truth telling they were doing versus how much fantasy it was from picking through the prose for inconsistencies.  Most of the time, it was a lot of fantasy.



As time has progressed, I have met here in Cyberspace many more such people, some of whom have spent time chatting up inside the Diner.  They all have many features and personality traits in common.  Not all mind you, this is somewhat of a gross generalization, but it is true enough most of the time to draw some conclusions from it.  That is what we will explore in this article.



First of all, you have a split in the prototypical Doomsteader type into the Males and the Females.



Image result for man chopping wood Males



"Rugged Individualists" who like to DIY as much as they can, building all sorts of cool shit to survive the Zero Point.  Normally in order to actually own a decent size Doomstead, they were succesful money makers inside Industrial Civilization as well, although not always the case.  Besides building shit, they also pride themselves on being able to do back-breaking work no matter how old they are.  Also pride themselves in their skills with weapons and shooting various animals for food.  Sometimes they are Solos, but more often have a female partner who picks up the other Doomsteading tasks.  Usually both older with their kids grown and out of the nest.



Related image Females



Not generally Solos, usually part of a marriage to a male of the type above.  Greenies who like to DIY also, but usually more traditional female tasks like milking the cows, churning butter, sewing, knitting, canning veggies etc.  Usually mechanical stuff like plumbing they leave to the male partner.  Sometimes they are OK with shooting and killing animals, but a large percentage are vegans, which means generally also the male partner needs to be a vegan as well.  Hard for a Meatosaurus to get along well with a Vegan of course.



These prototypical Doomsteader types are most often in their retirement years and have some source of Mailbox Money rolling in because if they raise even 1/4 of their own food on their property on their own that is doing really good.  They gotta have supplemental money coming in somehow.  When shit goes wrong with the plumbing, it's off to Home Depot to get replacement parts.  The tractor they use for all the big tasks runs on diesel of course, and they don't make their own biodiesel.  But they could in theory they tell you, at least as long as they actually have enough land to grow the soybeans along with grow food for themselves and feed for their animals.



They have plans to protect themselves from Zombies also.  Hubby has an arsenal of weapons and ammo supply any National Guard Armory would be proud to sport.  Night Vision scopes and Booby Traps and Body Armor too!



Image result for survivalist prepper



Anyhow, before I roll too far off track on this tangent, it should be fairly obvious this type of Doomsteading Plan is wholly ridiculous and removed from reality.  You have some younger people involved in this as well besides the retired oldsters who have found ways to "straddle two worlds", earning money in some facet of the industrial economy while at the same time living semi-remote on their Doomstead.  However, their plans are generally no more realistic than that of the Boomer Doomers.



Now, in chatting with such folks pursuing their Doomstead fantasies, many of them do recognize that their individual Doomstead is not really practical or survivable without some sort of Community behind it to work together in making survival possible longer than just until your preps run out and your tractor breaks down.



Image result for rugged individualist However, while they mouth the words about "forming community", they don't do it because they themselves are the antithesis of the communal type of person.  Rugged Individualists who like to go it alone and do everything for themselves.  Other people don't work hard enough for them, they aren't dedicated enough.  A big part of the reason they move out to remote Doomsteads is not because of TEOTWAWKI arriving any day now, it's because right here during BAU they can't stand most other people and want to get as far away from them as they reasonably can.  They prefer to be alone in the woods chopping down trees to building fences together with other Kollapsniks.



Now, how long do you think a bunch of anti-social Doomers would get along together in an Intentional Community?  About the same amount of time as between the lies popping out of the mouth of Trumpovetsky, that's how long.  Yet somehow these folks believe that after SHTF Day arrives, the magical Doomer Community they are building will come together.  Nice strong, young, smart, pleasant and healthy Kollapsniks will magically show up at their Doomsteads as Worker Bee Serfs while they play Lords of the Manor and everyone will live Happily Ever After.  This is such complete and utter bullshit it's even worse than the fantasy that a go-it-alone Doomstead would work.



How are these helpers even going to find the place after SHTF Day?  If it's a good location, it's 40 miles West of Nowhere up some unmaintained dirt road that doesn't even make it onto Google Maps, although if you really scope around and have GPS coordinates you might spot it on Google Earth.  Communications are down, so they're not going to find you on the Internet.  They probably can't get gas for their Bugout Machines to make the trip even if they knew where the place was and had become friends with you over the net prior to SHTF Day.  So you can pretty much kiss off any chance of getting your fantasy Doomer Community together after SHTF Day arrives.  Which means as far as post-collapse goes, the whole process of Doomstead Building, money, work and time in getting one of these places set up for this projected world of the future is a complete waste of time.



It's not such a waste of time though if you believe in a Slow Catabolic Collapse (aka Boiling Frog, see Mr. Wizard JMG), where the general society deteriorates just a little at a time, stuff you depend on from the outside world is still available and you can afford it although just harder and harder to get a hold of.  The internet is still up most of the time, but the outages become more frequent.  Taxes go up, but they're not completely unaffordable.  A plausible scenario for this is WWIII getting more fully underway, with rationing being instituted.  Then your supplemental Grow-Your-Own food plan becomes a valuable addition to your life to help keep it a bit more normal.  You'll still encounter the problem of a growing amount of theft of your food unless you are really well off the beaten path and hidden.



Image result for lord of the manor



These aren't the only issues though with Forming Community on your 100 acre Doomstead.  Even if you postulate that you can organize up some type of community prior to SHTF Day, you have the problem of having some sort of workable political system to govern it.  The most common in the fantasyland mind of the Doomer Owner of such a Doomstead is that they will be the "Lords of the Manor".  All the people who come to join them are the Serfs.  They "own" the property after all, everyone else is only there by their leave.  Another preposterous fantasy here.



First off, your ownership of a piece of property is granted to you by the state, and in a post-SHTF world, the state has failed or partially so, and they are not fielding police forces and a court system to protect your property rights.  So now you depend on your little tribe of Kollapsnik Serfs to help you Protect & Defend your 100 acre patch of the earth.  So you need to arm them to be able to do this protecting & defending.  Let's assume here they are SUCCESSFUL with this task, holding at bay successive waves of Zombies, unpaid Sherriff's Deputies and National Guard. troops.  GREAT!  What though is to stop them now from turning on you, the Lord of the Manor and getting rid of your oppressive ass that expects them to actually do as much work as you do every day?  Nada except you and your trusty AR-15 if you are actually awake when the Assassination Plot is carried out.  Even Caesar wasn't protected by the Pretorian Guard from Brutus.



Related image



The Feudal System of Lord of the Manor and Serfs evolved over a very long time from more basic Tribal systems which just had a Chief and then the rest of the Hunters & Gatherers  The Chief position was mostly inherited, but merit in Leadership and mental and physical abilities also came into play.  If you got into that position, you held it by means of respect from the rest of the tribe.



As time went by though, other classes of the Feudal society evolved, Nobles, Military, Priests, Merchants & Peasants.  The military caste served to protect the Nobles.  There wasn't much social mobility in this system of course, and it was hard for Serfs to revolt against the Lord of the Manor.  Periodically though if things got really bad and there was Nothing Left to Lose, they would do it anyhow.



In any event, you can't just POOF set up such a system on your 100 acre Doomstead.  To begin with, even in a best case scenario where you got maybe 150 people (Dunbar's Number), you can't have a dedicated military caste to protect the Lord of the Manor, they have to do te gardening and milk the cows too.  There's no real merchant class, because the whole theory here is you are self-sufficient on your plot of land.



In reality this plan is just ludicrous also.  So what can work?  IMHO, your political organization for the Doomstead has to be Democratic, essentially meaning that everyone living there has a say in how the Doomstead will be run.  The problem with this is it irks the original owner of the Doomstead, who spent gobs of money to buy the place and then maybe also put in years of back-breaking work trying to get it up to speed for SHTF Day.  He pines in his heart for the Good Old Days when he could just go out alone in the forest and chop some wood.  No Boss to tell him what he should do on any given day, except maybe his wife of course if he is married and not a Solo.  No annoying meetings with other Homo Saps over what the best course of action is to take moving into tomorrow to keep the Doomstead a going concern for a few more years of Collapse Living.  Once you have the Community you know you need to survive, you have to be able to live inside it, with all the difficulties involved of getting any group of Homo Saps to agree on anything.  I won't even touch on all the problems that crop up with sexual relationships that develop and break up, that one is a complete sewer and closed many of the Back to the Land Movement communes of the 1970s.



Image result for the farm commune 1970



What this means is the Rugged Individualist busting his balls to DIY a good Doomstead is really no better off than the suburban McMansion Dweller who has socked away 3 years worth of Freeze Dried Mountain House foods in his basement pantry.  About the same time he starts running out of food, without a Community the Doomstead of the Rugged Individualist will be failing as well.  So why do all that work?  Just stock up as much as you can of long lasting industrial food products for SHTF Day.  It will save you a lot of effort in putting in fencing and cleaning the slop out of the pig sty.  Granted, it would not keep you quite as bizzy and entertained as all that Manly Man work of chopping wood and digging post holes, but you can stay entertained on the internet.



The upshot here for this entire article is that nearly every TEOTWAWKI SHTF Day Plan out there at the moment is Doomed to Failure.  So until we can revise these Rugged Individualist paradigms, about the best anybody can hope for is to survive 3-5 years after the Big Day arrives. For me, this is not too bad, since I don't expect to live for more than 3 more years anyhow.  However, there are healthier specimens out there in Doomerville who would like to go a bit longer than this at least, if not succeed in staving of extinction for Homo Saps in the near term.



The ANSWER of course to all of these problems is the SUN☼ Project, which seeks to bring together the older and younger Doomers, the owners of property and the disenfranchised  and begin the process  of Community Formation NOW, before SHTF Day arrives.  The bear of course here has been just how to do this in a manner everyone can agree on and work towards together.  Never easy to get Rugged Individualists to agree on anything of course.



However, the recent developments Inside the Diner have given me some NEW ideas on how to accomplish solving this very Wicked Problem.



There are now multiple Diners with Doomsteads in various locations sprinkled around the FSoA and the Great White North.  All of them owned by Rugged Individualists.  What we need to do is to hold Convocations at the Doomsteads of these RIs on some type of semi-regular basis until SHTF Day arrives.  In such Convocations we hold Workshops to help Rugged Individualists become more social and able to tolerate other Homo Saps they share a living situation with.  We also train all on how to be accepting of decisions made on a community level rather than one Lord of the Manor.  Most important of all, we cook up a lot of GREAT FOOD!  lol.  Nothing builds Community better than Great Food.  Well, maybe Great Beer, but we can brew that up too, or import it from Krautland until SHTF Day arrives.



Image result for campfire dinner



Image result for campfire beer



By practicing our skills at community living in short intervals prior to SHTF Day, some of the most obvious short term problems can be worked through.  Long term problems can only be worked through after SHTF Day arrives and everyone is brought together PERMANENTLY!  ACCCKKKK!  Really?  You gotta live with 100 other assholes for the rest of your days walking the Earth?  Maybe it's better to die quick…



Where will the final location be?  That depends on many things geopolitical and climate related.  But the COMPACT is that all Diners will always welcome all other Diners and at least TRY to GET ALONG.  The alternative is Death for All.



Homo Dinerus.  Coming Soon to a Doomstead Near You.


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Offline monsta666

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Re: Catch-22 of the Doomsteader Paradox
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2018, 03:48:08 AM »
The Feudal System of Lord of the Manor and Serfs evolved over a very long time from more basic Tribal systems which just had a Chief and then the rest of the Hunters & Gatherers  The Chief position was mostly inherited, but merit in Leadership and mental and physical abilities also came into play.  If you got into that position, you held it by means of respect from the rest of the tribe.

I am not sure this is exactly true. The move to feudalism may not necessarily been considered an evolutionary move. In fact you could make the argument that society regressed to feudalism depending on your viewpoint. Before the middle-ages much of Europe was governed by the Roman empire which had its emperor, senate, citizens and many slaves. It should be noted too that the predecessor to the empire was the Roman Republic which is notable as that previous incarnation was probably more democratic (a point that should not be missed considered the way society is going today). Again the point merely reinforces the idea that history is not just one big progression curve from simple to more complex (or even more right). After this empire collapsed however we saw the shift to feudalism and this development happened largely out of necessity.

Prior to collapse you had one empire uniting all the land with a common interest. With the fall this meant the ties between communities was broken and they often went against each other. Just imagine how the United States would function if the federal system collapsed and the individual states were no longer united with a central government. On top of that many communities were threatened by external forces. Then there was the fact that during the declining years of the empire the amount of poverty was rising considerably for the average Joe at the time. The feudal system solved a lot of these problem as the more affluent people could still maintain their power by holding a lot of land. These lands were governed by people (the serfs) who were tied to the land but in exchange were provided and defended by the lord was obliged to take care of his people and have some sort of force in place to defend it. Whilst you cannot glorify the live of the serf it was better than slavery as they were granted some rights. It should be noted that during this period of history the amount of slavery taking place went into steep decline.

In any case since this transition to feudalism has already occurred from a relatively advanced society I don't see why such a development, in future can be dismissed so easily. If you can dismiss it then you have to make an argument why Roman society is so different to modern society today. Remember the US was largely inspired by a lot of the political systems that took place in the Roman republic (the senate, a continuously changing of head state through its consul, constitution etc.) so it my eyes things were not that different from a societal point of view any way.

Offline RE

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Re: Catch-22 of the Doomsteader Paradox
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2018, 04:08:44 AM »
The Feudal System of Lord of the Manor and Serfs evolved over a very long time from more basic Tribal systems which just had a Chief and then the rest of the Hunters & Gatherers  The Chief position was mostly inherited, but merit in Leadership and mental and physical abilities also came into play.  If you got into that position, you held it by means of respect from the rest of the tribe.

I am not sure this is exactly true. The move to feudalism may not necessarily been considered an evolutionary move. In fact you could make the argument that society regressed to feudalism depending on your viewpoint. Before the middle-ages much of Europe was governed by the Roman empire which had its emperor, senate, citizens and many slaves. It should be noted too that the predecessor to the empire was the Roman Republic which is notable as that previous incarnation was probably more democratic (a point that should not be missed considered the way society is going today). Again the point merely reinforces the idea that history is not just one big progression curve from simple to more complex (or even more right). After this empire collapsed however we saw the shift to feudalism and this development happened largely out of necessity.

Prior to collapse you had one empire uniting all the land with a common interest. With the fall this meant the ties between communities was broken and they often went against each other. Just imagine how the United States would function if the federal system collapsed and the individual states were no longer united with a central government. On top of that many communities were threatened by external forces. Then there was the fact that during the declining years of the empire the amount of poverty was rising considerably for the average Joe at the time. The feudal system solved a lot of these problem as the more affluent people could still maintain their power by holding a lot of land. These lands were governed by people (the serfs) who were tied to the land but in exchange were provided and defended by the lord was obliged to take care of his people and have some sort of force in place to defend it. Whilst you cannot glorify the live of the serf it was better than slavery as they were granted some rights. It should be noted that during this period of history the amount of slavery taking place went into steep decline.

In any case since this transition to feudalism has already occurred from a relatively advanced society I don't see why such a development, in future can be dismissed so easily. If you can dismiss it then you have to make an argument why Roman society is so different to modern society today. Remember the US was largely inspired by a lot of the political systems that took place in the Roman republic (the senate, a continuously changing of head state through its consul, constitution etc.) so it my eyes things were not that different from a societal point of view any way.

When Roman Civilization collapsed, there was a long period between the collapse of their Empire and the beginning of Feudalism.  It's called the Dark Ages for a reason, there aren't a lot of records from this period, other than those kept by the Holy Roman Catholic Church and Legends like King Arthur & the Knights of the Round Table.  We do know populations dropped drastically, Rome itself dropped down to around 10,000 from it's peak of over 1M.

Besides that, it's also the scaling problem.  A 150 person Doomstead is not sufficient in size to set up all the different castes of a Feudal Society.  Everybody has to fulfill several roles.

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Offline David B.

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Re: Catch-22 of the Doomsteader Paradox
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2018, 04:42:43 AM »

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Published on the Doomstead Diner on April 22, 2018

Discuss this article at the Doomsteading Table inside the Diner

The name for the blog Doomstead Diner comes from my early years of recognizing what the problems were with Industrial Civilization on the PeakOil.com forum. I developed a cartoon strip with another denizen of that forum, Flapjax who did the artwork and I wrote the scripts for it. It was a parody of several other regulars of the period who appeared as characters in the strip, including a self-parody of myself of course as well. lol. I'm the one in the panel above field dressing a Moose.

Back in those days, "Doomsteading" or setting up a survival location for making it through the Zero Point and the Collapse of Industrial Civilization was a very popular topic. Numerous members of the forum had Doomsteads of one size or another, from as compact as 1/4 Acre "Urban Doomsteads" right up to the 1000 Acre variety that a few Rich Fucks boasted about. Never quite sure of course if they were actually telling the truth or just had a vivid imagination on what they wished they had. I did meet a few IRL though, Pops was one who had a small 20 acre Dairy Farm in Missouri near where my sister lives. Mostly though, I had to figure out how much truth telling they were doing versus how much fantasy it was from picking through the prose for inconsistencies. Most of the time, it was a lot of fantasy.

As time has progressed, I have met here in Cyberspace many more such people, some of whom have spent time chatting up inside the Diner. They all have many features and personality traits in common. Not all mind you, this is somewhat of a gross generalization, but it is true enough most of the time to draw some conclusions from it. That is what we will explore in this article.

First of all, you have a split in the prototypical Doomsteader type into the Males and the Females.

Image result for man chopping wood Males

"Rugged Individualists" who like to DIY as much as they can, building all sorts of cool shit to survive the Zero Point. Normally in order to actually own a decent size Doomstead, they were succesful money makers inside Industrial Civilization as well, although not always the case. Besides building shit, they also pride themselves on being able to do back-breaking work no matter how old they are. Also pride themselves in their skills with weapons and shooting various animals for food. Sometimes they are Solos, but more often have a female partner who picks up the other Doomsteading tasks. Usually both older with their kids grown and out of the nest.

Related image Females

Not generally Solos, usually part of a marriage to a male of the type above. Greenies who like to DIY also, but usually more traditional female tasks like milking the cows, churning butter, sewing, knitting, canning veggies etc. Usually mechanical stuff like plumbing they leave to the male partner. Sometimes they are OK with shooting and killing animals, but a large percentage are vegans, which means generally also the male partner needs to be a vegan as well. Hard for a Meatosaurus to get along well with a Vegan of course.

These prototypical Doomsteader types are most often in their retirement years and have some source of Mailbox Money rolling in because if they raise even 1/4 of their own food on their property on their own that is doing really good. They gotta have supplemental money coming in somehow. When shit goes wrong with the plumbing, it's off to Home Depot to get replacement parts. The tractor they use for all the big tasks runs on diesel of course, and they don't make their own biodiesel. But they could in theory they tell you, at least as long as they actually have enough land to grow the soybeans along with grow food for themselves and feed for their animals.

They have plans to protect themselves from Zombies also. Hubby has an arsenal of weapons and ammo supply any National Guard Armory would be proud to sport. Night Vision scopes and Booby Traps and Body Armor too!

Image result for survivalist prepper

Anyhow, before I roll too far off track on this tangent, it should be fairly obvious this type of Doomsteading Plan is wholly ridiculous and removed from reality. You have some younger people involved in this as well besides the retired oldsters who have found ways to "straddle two worlds", earning money in some facet of the industrial economy while at the same time living semi-remote on their Doomstead. However, their plans are generally no more realistic than that of the Boomer Doomers.

Now, in chatting with such folks pursuing their Doomstead fantasies, many of them do recognize that their individual Doomstead is not really practical or survivable without some sort of Community behind it to work together in making survival possible longer than just until your preps run out and your tractor breaks down.

Image result for rugged individualist However, while they mouth the words about "forming community", they don't do it because they themselves are the antithesis of the communal type of person. Rugged Individualists who like to go it alone and do everything for themselves. Other people don't work hard enough for them, they aren't dedicated enough. A big part of the reason they move out to remote Doomsteads is not because of TEOTWAWKI arriving any day now, it's because right here during BAU they can't stand most other people and want to get as far away from them as they reasonably can. They prefer to be alone in the woods chopping down trees to building fences together with other Kollapsniks.

Now, how long do you think a bunch of anti-social Doomers would get along together in an Intentional Community? About the same amount of time as between the lies popping out of the mouth of Trumpovetsky, that's how long. Yet somehow these folks believe that after SHTF Day arrives, the magical Doomer Community they are building will come together. Nice strong, young, smart, pleasant and healthy Kollapsniks will magically show up at their Doomsteads as Worker Bee Serfs while they play Lords of the Manor and everyone will live Happily Ever After. This is such complete and utter bullshit it's even worse than the fantasy that a go-it-alone Doomstead would work.

How are these helpers even going to find the place after SHTF Day? If it's a good location, it's 40 miles West of Nowhere up some unmaintained dirt road that doesn't even make it onto Google Maps, although if you really scope around and have GPS coordinates you might spot it on Google Earth. Communications are down, so they're not going to find you on the Internet. They probably can't get gas for their Bugout Machines to make the trip even if they knew where the place was and had become friends with you over the net prior to SHTF Day. So you can pretty much kiss off any chance of getting your fantasy Doomer Community together after SHTF Day arrives. Which means as far as post-collapse goes, the whole process of Doomstead Building, money, work and time in getting one of these places set up for this projected world of the future is a complete waste of time.

It's not such a waste of time though if you believe in a Slow Catabolic Collapse (aka Boiling Frog, see Mr. Wizard JMG), where the general society deteriorates just a little at a time, stuff you depend on from the outside world is still available and you can afford it although just harder and harder to get a hold of. The internet is still up most of the time, but the outages become more frequent. Taxes go up, but they're not completely unaffordable. A plausible scenario for this is WWIII getting more fully underway, with rationing being instituted. Then your supplemental Grow-Your-Own food plan becomes a valuable addition to your life to help keep it a bit more normal. You'll still encounter the problem of a growing amount of theft of your food unless you are really well off the beaten path and hidden.

Image result for lord of the manor

These aren't the only issues though with Forming Community on your 100 acre Doomstead. Even if you postulate that you can organize up some type of community prior to SHTF Day, you have the problem of having some sort of workable political system to govern it. The most common in the fantasyland mind of the Doomer Owner of such a Doomstead is that they will be the "Lords of the Manor". All the people who come to join them are the Serfs. They "own" the property after all, everyone else is only there by their leave. Another preposterous fantasy here.

First off, your ownership of a piece of property is granted to you by the state, and in a post-SHTF world, the state has failed or partially so, and they are not fielding police forces and a court system to protect your property rights. So now you depend on your little tribe of Kollapsnik Serfs to help you Protect & Defend your 100 acre patch of the earth. So you need to arm them to be able to do this protecting & defending. Let's assume here they are SUCCESSFUL with this task, holding at bay successive waves of Zombies, unpaid Sherriff's Deputies and National Guard. troops. GREAT! What though is to stop them now from turning on you, the Lord of the Manor and getting rid of your oppressive ass that expects them to actually do as much work as you do every day? Nada except you and your trusty AR-15 if you are actually awake when the Assassination Plot is carried out. Even Caesar wasn't protected by the Pretorian Guard from Brutus.

Related image

The Feudal System of Lord of the Manor and Serfs evolved over a very long time from more basic Tribal systems which just had a Chief and then the rest of the Hunters & Gatherers The Chief position was mostly inherited, but merit in Leadership and mental and physical abilities also came into play. If you got into that position, you held it by means of respect from the rest of the tribe.

As time went by though, other classes of the Feudal society evolved, Nobles, Military, Priests, Merchants & Peasants. The military caste served to protect the Nobles. There wasn't much social mobility in this system of course, and it was hard for Serfs to revolt against the Lord of the Manor. Periodically though if things got really bad and there was Nothing Left to Lose, they would do it anyhow.

In any event, you can't just POOF set up such a system on your 100 acre Doomstead. To begin with, even in a best case scenario where you got maybe 150 people (Dunbar's Number), you can't have a dedicated military caste to protect the Lord of the Manor, they have to do te gardening and milk the cows too. There's no real merchant class, because the whole theory here is you are self-sufficient on your plot of land.

In reality this plan is just ludicrous also. So what can work? IMHO, your political organization for the Doomstead has to be Democratic, essentially meaning that everyone living there has a say in how the Doomstead will be run. The problem with this is it irks the original owner of the Doomstead, who spent gobs of money to buy the place and then maybe also put in years of back-breaking work trying to get it up to speed for SHTF Day. He pines in his heart for the Good Old Days when he could just go out alone in the forest and chop some wood. No Boss to tell him what he should do on any given day, except maybe his wife of course if he is married and not a Solo. No annoying meetings with other Homo Saps over what the best course of action is to take moving into tomorrow to keep the Doomstead a going concern for a few more years of Collapse Living. Once you have the Community you know you need to survive, you have to be able to live inside it, with all the difficulties involved of getting any group of Homo Saps to agree on anything. I won't even touch on all the problems that crop up with sexual relationships that develop and break up, that one is a complete sewer and closed many of the Back to the Land Movement communes of the 1970s.

Image result for the farm commune 1970

What this means is the Rugged Individualist busting his balls to DIY a good Doomstead is really no better off than the suburban McMansion Dweller who has socked away 3 years worth of Freeze Dried Mountain House foods in his basement pantry. About the same time he starts running out of food, without a Community the Doomstead of the Rugged Individualist will be failing as well. So why do all that work? Just stock up as much as you can of long lasting industrial food products for SHTF Day. It will save you a lot of effort in putting in fencing and cleaning the slop out of the pig sty. Granted, it would not keep you quite as bizzy and entertained as all that Manly Man work of chopping wood and digging post holes, but you can stay entertained on the internet.

The upshot here for this entire article is that nearly every TEOTWAWKI SHTF Day Plan out there at the moment is Doomed to Failure. So until we can revise these Rugged Individualist paradigms, about the best anybody can hope for is to survive 3-5 years after the Big Day arrives. For me, this is not too bad, since I don't expect to live for more than 3 more years anyhow. However, there are healthier specimens out there in Doomerville who would like to go a bit longer than this at least, if not succeed in staving of extinction for Homo Saps in the near term.

The ANSWER of course to all of these problems is the SUN☼ Project, which seeks to bring together the older and younger Doomers, the owners of property and the disenfranchised and begin the process of Community Formation NOW, before SHTF Day arrives. The bear of course here has been just how to do this in a manner everyone can agree on and work towards together. Never easy to get Rugged Individualists to agree on anything of course.

However, the recent developments Inside the Diner have given me some NEW ideas on how to accomplish solving this very Wicked Problem.

There are now multiple Diners with Doomsteads in various locations sprinkled around the FSoA and the Great White North. All of them owned by Rugged Individualists. What we need to do is to hold Convocations at the Doomsteads of these RIs on some type of semi-regular basis until SHTF Day arrives. In such Convocations we hold Workshops to help Rugged Individualists become more social and able to tolerate other Homo Saps they share a living situation with. We also train all on how to be accepting of decisions made on a community level rather than one Lord of the Manor. Most important of all, we cook up a lot of GREAT FOOD! lol. Nothing builds Community better than Great Food. Well, maybe Great Beer, but we can brew that up too, or import it from Krautland until SHTF Day arrives.

Image result for campfire dinner

Image result for campfire beer

By practicing our skills at community living in short intervals prior to SHTF Day, some of the most obvious short term problems can be worked through. Long term problems can only be worked through after SHTF Day arrives and everyone is brought together PERMANENTLY! ACCCKKKK! Really? You gotta live with 100 other assholes for the rest of your days walking the Earth? Maybe it's better to die quick

Where will the final location be? That depends on many things geopolitical and climate related. But the COMPACT is that all Diners will always welcome all other Diners and at least TRY to GET ALONG. The alternative is Death for All.

Homo Dinerus. Coming Soon to a Doomstead Near You.

Nice one RE,
I think active introvert is a better label for me then rugged individualist. Desperation is the motivator for community I see emerging but its not quite here yet. We think things are bad but they are not people watching you starve bad yet. They are not Junta with lists bad. Mandatory concsription bad. Failure of several grain harvests bad. Collapse of a national grid bad. Collapse of medical insurance bad. Roving somali warlord bad.
I know I am not expecting an army of happy permies to show up at my door. I gently prod at those I see with potential as they gently prod at me. The welder across the street. The machinist up the road. The pot grower up a bit, the mechanic on my road who was a grain farmer ,the new roofer family next door. The farmer in town I buy my meat off of the homesteading couple that mill chicken feed, The prepper nurse.  A loose affiliation of people with vested interests. Pot lucks, seed exchanges, group nursery buys Environmental meet ups those are my convocations. I force myself to attend them even if they are mostly wasted fuel. Im naturally isolationist so I have to work at it all the time. Local is king.
Cheers,  David
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 05:25:54 AM by Surly1 »
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline RE

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Re: Catch-22 of the Doomsteader Paradox
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2018, 07:21:02 AM »
Nice one RE,
I think active introvert is a better label for me then rugged individualist. Desperation is the motivator for community I see emerging but its not quite here yet. We think things are bad but they are not people watching you starve bad yet. They are not Junta with lists bad. Mandatory concsription bad. Failure of several grain harvests bad. Collapse of a national grid bad. Collapse of medical insurance bad. Roving somali warlord bad.
I know I am not expecting an army of happy permies to show up at my door. I gently prod at those I see with potential as they gently prod at me. The welder across the street. The machinist up the road. The pot grower up a bit, the mechanic on my road who was a grain farmer ,the new roofer family next door. The farmer in town I buy my meat off of the homesteading couple that mill chicken feed, The prepper nurse.  A loose affiliation of people with vested interests. Pot lucks, seed exchanges, group nursery buys Environmental meet ups those are my convocations. I force myself to attend them even if they are mostly wasted fuel. Im naturally isolationist so I have to work at it all the time. Local is king.
Cheers,  David

I've seen your videos.  You're a rugged individualist.  lol.

Those are a bunch of good talents to have around the area, but all spread out they can't protect & defend their respective Doomsteads.  Everybody is subject to home invasion by the have nots, all the people who didn't have enough money to buy Doomsteads.  AKA the Zombies.  Then there are those hungry Mounties also.

Still, that's a better situation than most Doomsteads, they don't have all those talented people nearby.

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Offline cernunnos5

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Re: Catch-22 of the Doomsteader Paradox
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2018, 09:10:58 AM »
I have been meaning to write a similar article. Ive made several attempts at community building an so far, non has worked. While away, we decided to rework how we are doing it. We are tossing our anarchist principles wich are getting in the way. I have been changing myself to try and figure out how to lead. Not my natural temperament. 

Its our first real nice day today so I dont want to go to deep into this today.

There already is a model of this today. One of my more unusual survival advices is...

If you can not form of join or build a survival group.... Join the Society of Creative Anachronism  or similar Renaissance group.

They practice the intricacies feudal societies... as play. And they form VERY strong bonds. I do have to visit them again soon.
http://internationalpreppersnetwork.net/viewtopic.php?t=5925   

Well. Out into the sunshine I go

Offline RE

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Re: Catch-22 of the Doomsteader Paradox
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2018, 09:22:00 AM »
They practice the intricacies feudal societies... as play. And they form VERY strong bonds. I do have to visit them again soon.

People actually take the roles of Serfs in these games?  Who would pick that job?  ???  :icon_scratch:

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Online Eddie

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Re: Catch-22 of the Doomsteader Paradox
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2018, 10:23:40 AM »
My take is that for those of us regulars here, getting together in the real world and sharing some face time and great food (and beer)  has been our greatest accomplishment, and that more convocations are in fact a fine idea that should be promoted. I'm all for that.

We've been having this conversation about rugged individualism vs. community since the day I showed up here (What, 5 years ago? Longer?). In spite of BEING a rugged individualist, I have always accepted that community is necessary and desirable. It's just that I'd never join any club that would have me for a member. LOL.

Being one of the modest "haves", as opposed to the "have-nots", I'd also like to point out a few things. One is that, in spite of the possible futility of my/our efforts, we are in fact doing SOMETHING, as opposed to doing nothing. I/we have become awakened to the looming problem set that is on the horizon, and have begun to make preparations. It IS a start.

Regardless of the seeming futility of solo doomsteading as a means of saving mankind, it definitely increases our personal chances of being around past this (perceived, not necessarily likely) zero point when Industrial Civilization suddenly grinds to a screeching halt. If we were to have such a Black Swan event, my modest preps would come in really handy. None of us has the ability to make a seamless transition to New Feudalism or whatever our next level turns out to be. We can only hope to be there and still be eating and able to cope with it as it comes down on us.

You have a timeline of a few months to a few years, because your health is bad. But somebody like me, or David, or C5, or the others out there who are trying to stay off the radar (I know you're out there, LOL.), we only have a fairly short time horizon as well, when one looks at civilizations and the speed of planetary change. Climate change is bad, and speeding up, but it isn't even clear that it will  make this marginal country I live in uninhabitable in the 20-30 years I might have left. The Evil Empire will get kicked in the teeth by then, but it might not go down completely.

We do what we do because we live in the very real world we live in, the one with bills to pay and taxes to pay. The one where it takes financial resources to accumulate the kind of resources that come in handy for food production and resilient living. We are mostly very busy people who spend our time doing things that appear to desperately need to be done in order to get ready, while at the same time, understanding that there will be no real pay-off for us being right about the future. The best we can hope for a is a giant step down into harder living, with few of the comforts we now take for granted. This doesn't make us stupid survivalists. But you can only do so much. You can't remake society and prep and work a day job. We have primary commitments to feed and shelter our families NOW and do things like send our kids to college, or at least support them in their quest to find meaningful lives of their own.

Okay,rant over.


Getting back to the Convocations. They've been a really great thing. None of us has built a dome since we went to dome school, but we all learned some very good basic knowledge. (Put the thermal mass on the inside and the insulation on the outside, you dummy!) Thank you David South and Monolithic Domes. I am playing around with a site-specific way to build on the stead using those principles and my (free) local materials, but I'm not quite ready to go public on that. But I have a plan, and it's taking shape.

LD and GM (and your) efforts to raise money for SUN in SC failed, but you put some people together and made them think. We put a majority of Diner regulars together to get to know one another and throw down some incredible food...and the after party was epic. I will never forget Lake Hosea and Saluda. Thanks for making that happen. All of us who took the time and money to get there got a lot out of it, I believe.

I've always been in favor of putting people together. The internet is great and all, but you have to meet and share some face time to start a community. No community yet? Let's keep having parties, and setting small goals. Better to spend the rest of whatever time we have left making real world connections than remaining isolated. You have to have some faith that small steps sometimes lead to big changes.







What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Online Eddie

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Re: Catch-22 of the Doomsteader Paradox
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2018, 10:45:48 AM »
I checked. I showed up here five years ago last month. Lotta water under da bridge, since then.

Carry on and keep convocating.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 11:08:36 AM by Eddie »
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline cernunnos5

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Re: Catch-22 of the Doomsteader Paradox
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2018, 11:17:07 AM »
They practice the intricacies feudal societies... as play. And they form VERY strong bonds. I do have to visit them again soon.

People actually take the roles of Serfs in these games?  Who would pick that job?  ???  :icon_scratch:

RE
No. Seriously. I put that article up to be read. Its how I used to write before deciding I needed my own blog.

once again      http://internationalpreppersnetwork.net/viewtopic.php?t=5925

In the SCA, you rise up in social rank... based on the amount of SERVICE you have done for the group

Offline K-Dog

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Re: Catch-22 of the Doomsteader Paradox
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2018, 11:43:26 AM »
I have been meaning to write a similar article. Ive made several attempts at community building an so far, non has worked. While away, we decided to rework how we are doing it. We are tossing our anarchist principles wich are getting in the way. I have been changing myself to try and figure out how to lead. Not my natural temperament. 

Its our first real nice day today so I dont want to go to deep into this today.

There already is a model of this today. One of my more unusual survival advices is...

If you can not form of join or build a survival group.... Join the Society of Creative Anachronism  or similar Renaissance group.

They practice the intricacies feudal societies... as play. And they form VERY strong bonds. I do have to visit them again soon.
http://internationalpreppersnetwork.net/viewtopic.php?t=5925   

Well. Out into the sunshine I go

I have a brother who is a member of CE.  He is an expert at making old English longbows.  It is an organization that is intriguing from a 'Diners' point of view.  A group could be started which was more collapse based with emphasis on doing things the old fashioned way.  Such things as growing your own food.
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline RE

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Re: Catch-22 of the Doomsteader Paradox
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2018, 11:52:19 AM »
I checked. I showed up here five years ago last month. Lotta water under da bridge, since then.

Carry on and keep convocating.

My idea for a convocation this year was to do it around the Solstice.  I was hoping to drive the Al-Can with Brian at the end of May so I could have SaVANnah down there as my wheels and sleeping accommodation, but I don't feel up to the drive now.  I could still fly though, if I don't get worse.

Another idea I had was to have it up here and we could camp at my favorite spot on the Matanuska River and drive down to Kenai for some fishing and take a cruise for some whale watching.  Then up to Denali for some hiking.  I'll stay at the campsite and cook. lol.

Then since DB and C5 have shown up, maybe doing it at one of their places in the Great White North would be good.  SUN goes International!  lol.

Anyhow, if any of you Diners want to host one of our parties, let us know.  :icon_sunny:

Far as your Toothstead and your own Rugged Individualist personality goes, of course it is better to do something than do nothing.  But the thing is you just really don't know how much food you can grow to feed some number of pigs and chickens and goats, and then how many people they will feed.  How much in years you get decent rain, how much in the drought years?  You need to have some helpers and cultivate it.  You can't do it all yourself while drilling teeth for a living to support the place.  What about bringing in some WWOOFers?

RE
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 11:54:23 AM by RE »
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Offline RE

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Re: Catch-22 of the Doomsteader Paradox
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2018, 11:59:22 AM »
I have been meaning to write a similar article. Ive made several attempts at community building an so far, non has worked. While away, we decided to rework how we are doing it. We are tossing our anarchist principles wich are getting in the way. I have been changing myself to try and figure out how to lead. Not my natural temperament. 

Its our first real nice day today so I dont want to go to deep into this today.

There already is a model of this today. One of my more unusual survival advices is...

If you can not form of join or build a survival group.... Join the Society of Creative Anachronism  or similar Renaissance group.

They practice the intricacies feudal societies... as play. And they form VERY strong bonds. I do have to visit them again soon.
http://internationalpreppersnetwork.net/viewtopic.php?t=5925   

Well. Out into the sunshine I go

I have a brother who is a member of CE.  He is an expert at making old English longbows.  It is an organization that is intriguing from a 'Diners' point of view.  A group could be started which was more collapse based with emphasis on doing things the old fashioned way.  Such things as growing your own food.

That's why I made a Primitive Skills board.  However, we never have had enough Diners interested in that to get a group going with that theme.

RE
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Offline RE

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Re: Catch-22 of the Doomsteader Paradox
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2018, 12:21:29 PM »
In the SCA, you rise up in social rank... based on the amount of SERVICE you have done for the group

That's not real Feudalism then.  In Feudalism, there was little to no social mobility.  Serfs could never become Nobles, short of a successful revolution which about never happened in the whole history of Feudalism.

However, the plan of doing Service if you don't have Money is the SUN plan.  The idea is to allow young folks with strong backs to earn their piece of the Doomstead through Sweat Equity.  To do that though, you actually have to have them there sweating before SHTF Day arrives.  Then exactly how much work earns you what?  I did this in terms of Voting shares, and you get so many per year depending on your contributions.  But how do you value comparative contributions?  Say you have a midwife on your Doomstead and she successfully delivers 3 healthy babies.   You also have Big John on the property.  Big John is 6'6 and weighs 245.  Nobody gives no lip to Big John.  He can dig post holes through granite and wrestle a full grown steer to the ground and hog tie it.  Who gets more votes and why is one of these people more valuable than the other?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/xVbHAEQzJ_w" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/xVbHAEQzJ_w</a>

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Offline David B.

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Re: Catch-22 of the Doomsteader Paradox
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2018, 01:53:25 PM »
Well nobody would voluntarily assign themselves and their descendants the role of peasants into perpetuity. Gaining rank as you serve sounds like a working compromise for a society of equals. If they can earn their way out of the lowest levels call it feudalism light... I have no exposure to the SCA other than endless mentions in every single tech collapse sci fi series. Dies the fire by Stirling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dies_the_Fire  and The Council wars by John Ringo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Council_Wars come to mind. As to getting people to work after the SHTF you would control that through the only currencies that would mean anything; food and security. You work you eat, you work harder you eat better maybe become one who makes decisions...  Upset the social order and get cast out. It would take an immense stockpile and a selected minority of bully boys to keep it together until it establishes itself. Probably the exact same way it was done at the fall of rome. He who controlled the grain stores and could hold onto it became the defacto feudal lord. Hopefully you could hold on. If you can't maybe that is for the best. That is not the endpoint I see of course. I prefer an agriculture based model with access to technologies from the 19th century and some electricity. Hopefully some remaining government and laws. Meaningless musings of course. I must go repot the seedlings...
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

 

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