AuthorTopic: Mass Shootings Don't Tell The Story Of Gun Violence  (Read 1413 times)

Offline K-Dog

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Re: Mass Shootings Don't Tell The Story Of Gun Violence
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2018, 06:43:07 AM »
"The weapons fetish is just a symptom of a country for whom war is the most important export."  And bingo, just what I was really getting at but you did it better, Surly. It's necessary to get a load of the whole picture. A seething violent hateful hating nation. A sicko paranoid nation of Now No diplomacy meaning shoot to kill first talk later, not the other way around. Interesting how people here on this forum barely mention the supported Palestinan Genocide, too busy promoting and fantasizing more violence at home. Owning a gun means accepting the possibility of using it, thinking of how it might be necessary, thinking of retaliation for what hasn't even happened, looking forward to it. No surprise that such personalities and psychological make up have produced and harbored the hard core dyed in the wool neocons and mic milking the fantasy. It's no wonder that we are now so hated and despised, having forever fostered and projected this inner fantasy of violence outward upon the whole world. America is sick with paranoia spewing violence and angry aggression upon the entire rest of the world. What has made us so sick and unable to heal our society? Please tell me.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/britsinthephilippines.top/philippines-genocide-3-million-filipinos-killed/%3famp

https://www.thenation.com/article/why-cant-americans-remember-anyones-deaths-other-than-their-own/

The ongoing Palestinan genocide is one of my pet peves.  I posted pictures of the crowds camped behind burning tires for rock throwing cover only last week.  If you don't see enough about the Palestinian situation to suit you here it is because news on the region is hard to come by because both Palloy and I would be right on that shit if we saw it.  If you would like to see some more info on the Palestinian issue, post some!

"What has made us so sick and unable to heal our society? Please tell me."

Electronic brainwashing is part of it.  Videos wash the retinas of Americans several times a day and they are absorbed without critical reflection because that is the nature of the video experience.  It is a socializing media rather than an informative one, yet people when watching video will feel like they are being informed as they are in fact being absorbed.  Another effect of video is that it has exacerbated class differences and only a unified society can act like it even has the rudiments of a collective brain.  A divided society has the reflective capability of a flatworm.  That is us.  America the flatworm.
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline Surly1

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Re: Mass Shootings Don't Tell The Story Of Gun Violence
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2018, 08:59:41 AM »

Human nature is not going to change any time soon. Reduce the force multipliers and the you will certainly NOT reduce the amount of plans to do violence by those who lose it for some reason.

BUT, they will need to resort to the pickup truck, the pitchfork or the shovel more often if they don't have an AR-15 handy. I would call that progress.

I would as well. Let's try anything that works. Let's start by making gun owners responsible and obliged to carry insurance.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: Mass Shootings Don't Tell The Story Of Gun Violence
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2018, 05:57:29 PM »
The solution is going to have to be more serious, like changing the Constitution to remove the right to 'revolt by gunfire', which is no longer tenable.
My guess is, if we try that solution, we will discover exactly how tenable that is or isn't.
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline Palloy2

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Re: Mass Shootings Don't Tell The Story Of Gun Violence
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2018, 06:16:59 PM »
It was born out of Jefferson's experiences with the British Empire and the French Revolution.  His new Constitution had to have a bit in it that allowed the people to do what they already had done, have a revolution against the authorities.  But that was at a time when firearms were in such short supply that being able to field lots of gunmen could make a difference. That is no longer true, so the right to bear arms is longer tenable for a society at peace, and that's why no other country allows it.
"The State is a body of armed men."

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: Mass Shootings Don't Tell The Story Of Gun Violence
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2018, 06:20:45 PM »
What has made us so sick and unable to heal our society? Please tell me.
Greed.  When a nation with 5% of the world's population consumes 20% of the world's resources, there is bound to be conflict with the rest of the world.  And much of what drives Americans to consume IS the programming we receive through electronic media in various forms of advertising, which is there to help companies make profits.  So it all boils down to the love of money.
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: Mass Shootings Don't Tell The Story Of Gun Violence
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2018, 06:23:17 PM »
That is no longer true, so the right to bear arms is longer tenable for a society at peace, and that's why no other country allows it.
Except Switzerland, for which bearing arms is not a right but a responsibility....
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: Mass Shootings Don't Tell The Story Of Gun Violence
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2018, 06:35:12 PM »
Your argument that 44 in 5 months isn't many deaths is cold-hearted, as I'm sure the bereaved parents would attest. 
Yes, it is a terrible tragedy for the friends and families of those 44 victims, but you can't let your emotions overrule your rationality.  If the facts show that guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens saves more lives, then we need to go with the facts.

Let's put it another way, to make the argument easier to see.  Say you give a flu vaccine to 100 million people.  Without the vaccine 1% of them would have died from the flu.  But 100 people die from complications of getting the vaccine.  Was giving the vaccine a good thing?  For the 1 million people who would have died but didn't, absolutely.  But those were non-events.  They don't get noticed.  It's the 100 people who die from the vaccine that get noticed.  Those deaths are terrible, and we want to avoid them, but not at a cost of sacrificing the 1 million.

And don't get me wrong, I am with Karpatok, I would love to see ALL guns go.  But short of being granted a wish from a genie, I don't see that happening.  And I am very leery of creating privileged classes who are allowed to carry guns and denigrated classes who are not.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 06:48:49 PM by jdwheeler42 »
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline Surly1

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Re: Mass Shootings Don't Tell The Story Of Gun Violence
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2018, 06:49:11 PM »
The solution is going to have to be more serious, like changing the Constitution to remove the right to 'revolt by gunfire', which is no longer tenable.
My guess is, if we try that solution, we will discover exactly how tenable that is or isn't.

With Brandon "Lexington and Concord" Smith, the Oath-keepers, the Three-Percenters and every sovereign citizen sheriff-type leading the charge to "water the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants," etc. etc. Meaning they'll finally be able to empty many clips from their cache of automatic weapons and ammo on their cousin's sister's son in the National Guard. Can't wait. All that training in the Michigan woods will finally pay off.

"Violence is as American as cherry pie."  --H. Rap Brown

Pigs will crawl out of my ass, take wing and cycle the sun before Americans repeal the Constitution to inhibit or amend the Second Amendment. Won't happen in my lifetime or my daughters. Hopefully we will pass some common-sense regulation, but I'm not sure I'll live to see it. I do recall that some years ago, Russian academic Igor Panarin had been predicting the U.S. would fall apart. (His date was in 2010, but here on the Diner were soft on holding people to dates, aren't we?) He thought an economic and moral collapse would trigger a civil war and the eventual breakup of the U.S. - This map shows his prediction on how the U.S. would've split.



Panarin's timing was off but the divisions he traced are alive and well. But the real split that is coming will be rural/urban.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline agelbert

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Re: Mass Shootings Don't Tell The Story Of Gun Violence
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2018, 07:03:38 PM »

Human nature is not going to change any time soon. Reduce the force multipliers and the you will certainly NOT reduce the amount of plans to do violence by those who lose it for some reason.

BUT, they will need to resort to the pickup truck, the pitchfork or the shovel more often if they don't have an AR-15 handy. I would call that progress.
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I would as well. Let's try anything that works. Let's start by making gun owners responsible and obliged to carry insurance.

Thank you for applauding my decision. Too few here are honest enough to know the limitations of human nature. You are one of those I would trust with my life.  :icon_sunny:

Why? Because you have no illusions about how base human nature can be, even in the most principled of individuals.
Leges         Sine    Moribus      Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

Offline Palloy2

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Re: Mass Shootings Don't Tell The Story Of Gun Violence
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2018, 07:30:50 PM »
Quote
Surly: I do recall that some years ago, Russian academic Igor Panarin had been predicting the U.S. would fall apart. (His date was in 2010, but here on the Diner were soft on holding people to dates, aren't we?) He thought an economic and moral collapse would trigger a civil war and the eventual breakup of the U.S.

If the $700 billion liquidity injection in 2008 hadn't happened, (if people had actually objected), then Panarin would have been right.  But instead they acted in their own best interests as Imperial citizens, and didn't object, and BAU staggered on for another ten years of fun, freedom and democracy.
"The State is a body of armed men."

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: Mass Shootings Don't Tell The Story Of Gun Violence
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2018, 07:42:19 PM »
With Brandon "Lexington and Concord" Smith, the Oath-keepers, the Three-Percenters and every sovereign citizen sheriff-type leading the charge to "water the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants," etc. etc. Meaning they'll finally be able to empty many clips from their cache of automatic weapons and ammo on their cousin's sister's son in the National Guard. Can't wait. All that training in the Michigan woods will finally pay off.

"Violence is as American as cherry pie."  --H. Rap Brown

Pigs will crawl out of my ass, take wing and cycle the sun before Americans repeal the Constitution to inhibit or amend the Second Amendment. Won't happen in my lifetime or my daughters. Hopefully we will pass some common-sense regulation, but I'm not sure I'll live to see it. I do recall that some years ago, Russian academic Igor Panarin had been predicting the U.S. would fall apart. (His date was in 2010, but here on the Diner were soft on holding people to dates, aren't we?) He thought an economic and moral collapse would trigger a civil war and the eventual breakup of the U.S. - This map shows his prediction on how the U.S. would've split.



Panarin's timing was off but the divisions he traced are alive and well. But the real split that is coming will be rural/urban.
My big problem with that map is it is state-based.  I doubt the states would hold together in such a period.  Heck, there is already talk about breaking up California.  Closer to my home, see that line between Virginia and West Virginia?  You could probably extend it up through Pennsylvania and New York and make everyone happier.

I did share an article on here a while back about there actually being 11 distinct regions of the US.
http://www.businessinsider.com/regional-differences-united-states-2018-1
« Last Edit: May 21, 2018, 07:49:08 PM by jdwheeler42 »
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: Mass Shootings Don't Tell The Story Of Gun Violence
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2018, 07:44:43 PM »
The solution is going to have to be more serious, like changing the Constitution to remove the right to 'revolt by gunfire', which is no longer tenable.
My guess is, if we try that solution, we will discover exactly how tenable that is or isn't.

With Brandon "Lexington and Concord" Smith, the Oath-keepers, the Three-Percenters and every sovereign citizen sheriff-type leading the charge to "water the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants," etc. etc. Meaning they'll finally be able to empty many clips from their cache of automatic weapons and ammo on their cousin's sister's son in the National Guard. Can't wait. All that training in the Michigan woods will finally pay off.

"Violence is as American as cherry pie."  --H. Rap Brown

Pigs will crawl out of my ass, take wing and cycle the sun before Americans repeal the Constitution to inhibit or amend the Second Amendment. Won't happen in my lifetime or my daughters. Hopefully we will pass some common-sense regulation, but I'm not sure I'll live to see it. I do recall that some years ago, Russian academic Igor Panarin had been predicting the U.S. would fall apart. (His date was in 2010, but here on the Diner were soft on holding people to dates, aren't we?) He thought an economic and moral collapse would trigger a civil war and the eventual breakup of the U.S. - This map shows his prediction on how the U.S. would've split.



Panarin's timing was off but the divisions he traced are alive and well. But the real split that is coming will be rural/urban.
Don't forget north south. Southern Ontario has a great deal in common with the atlantic seaboard. Alberta and Montana had a fluid border for a century or more. The whole eastern seaboard traded through the maritimes for centuries before canada existed. Half the southwest belonged to Spain/mexico. It would be short sighted to think the whole continent would not be in play. Like a giant game of risk...
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline Surly1

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Re: Mass Shootings Don't Tell The Story Of Gun Violence
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2018, 07:57:26 PM »

My big problem with that map is it is state-based.  I doubt the states would hold together in such a period.  Heck, there is already talk about breaking up California. 

I quite agree. Like I said, the divide is more likely to be rural/urban. The rural will think they can starve the cities out until they find out they need fuel for growing and trade, and products made only in cities. And the cities will quickly find out they can't feed themselves...
"Breaking up California" is, is believe, another bot-assisted right wing fraud. I'm sure Orange County wants to secede, but no matter how many times the Lout-in-Chief decrees "Governor Moonbeam," the state of the sate looks ok for now.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline Surly1

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Re: Mass Shootings Don't Tell The Story Of Gun Violence
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2018, 08:02:43 PM »

Panarin's timing was off but the divisions he traced are alive and well. But the real split that is coming will be rural/urban.
Don't forget north south. Southern Ontario has a great deal in common with the atlantic seaboard. Alberta and Montana had a fluid border for a century or more. The whole eastern seaboard traded through the maritimes for centuries before canada existed. Half the southwest belonged to Spain/mexico. It would be short sighted to think the whole continent would not be in play. Like a giant game of risk...

Really excellent point. Risk is a great analogy. Lost many evenings of misspent youth trying to take over the world from Australia.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: Mass Shootings Don't Tell The Story Of Gun Violence
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2018, 08:20:25 PM »
Really excellent point. Risk is a great analogy. Lost many evenings of misspent youth trying to take over the world from Australia.
I remember one particularly epic game that took about 5-6 hours and had about as many players.  It got interesting when the two most powerful players made a pact to take over the world, and the rest of us made an alliance to defeat them.  Once we did, we lost interest in actually playing out the game to have a "winner".
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

 

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