💡 Electrical Resilience

[Eddie]

Eddie: I give 3-2 odds Iran and North Korea both have EMP weapons already.

For North Korea that is true, because they have stated it and tested a nuclear weapon.  For Iran it is not true.  Even the National Intelligence Estimates in 2007 and 2011 admitted as much, and the "nuclear weapons program before 2004" part is probably not true.  They have nuclear power and have been refused fuel rod replacements by US and by Argentina (through US coersion), so they decided to do 3.6% enrichment to be self-sufficient.   All this is allowed under the NPT agreement.  They have IAEA inspections, and allowed extra inspections when the Additional Protocols were in force.  When they abandoned the Additional Protocols, because the US was blocking further multi-party talks, the US said they couldn't abandon the Additional Protocols, and then declared them to be in contravention.  Nobody else agrees, obviously.

I know it's a long away from home and therefore boring, but not concentrating on the facts mean drinking the koolaid, which you have, hence the above quoted US-propaganda lie, along with all the others.

All nuclear weapons produce EMPs when used above 25 kms (mid-stratosphere).  The frequency spectrum of the interference is divided into 3 according to the type of damage produced.  E1 is very fast (< 1 microsecond) and will fry electronic chips in computers and phones and cars and industrial control systems.  E2 is slower (<1 millisecond) and can be intercepted and avoided by surge protectors.  E3 is very slow (> 1 second) and affects long power lines and fences.  Solar storms can only produce E3.  Solid Faraday cages will protect your items if they are in it when it happens.  Copper mesh of very fine size (< 1mm) might also work if no cables go in or out. Non-nuclear EMP weapons are very weak by comparison and need to be highly targeted.
should work.  It is pretty silly to bother with Faraday Cages as there won't be any power or internet services afterwards

Just noticed this one from several days back. I'm responding to it for one reason, and that reason is that it's a fine example of your prejudice and passive-aggressive behavior toward me, and your stunning rudeness.

For Iran it is not true.  Even the National Intelligence Estimates in 2007 and 2011 admitted as much, and the "nuclear weapons program before 2004" part is probably not true.  They have nuclear power and have been refused fuel rod replacements by US and by Argentina (through US coersion), so they decided to do 3.6% enrichment to be self-sufficient.   All this is allowed under the NPT agreement.  They have IAEA inspections, and allowed extra inspections when the Additional Protocols were in force.  When they abandoned the Additional Protocols, because the US was blocking further multi-party talks, the US said they couldn't abandon the Additional Protocols, and then declared them to be in contravention.  Nobody else agrees, obviously.

I know it's a long away from home and therefore boring, but not concentrating on the facts mean drinking the koolaid, which you have, hence the above quoted US-propaganda lie, along with all the others.

That last part is very typical of your tendency to act like a douchebag any time I say things you don't happen to like or agree with. In fact lately it's pretty much ANYTHING I say.

You jump to the conclusion that you know something technical about EMP effects that the rest of us, including myself, don't know, because we lack your deep understanding of physics and mathematics. Then you proceed to lecture us, as if we didn't read nearly all the same things, and as if you're an expert, which you aren't.

I've read most of the best book that exists about EMP, and I posted a link to it here. I have it somewhere.



People should make Faraday cages, at least small ones, and use them to store communications devices like conventional two-way radios that run off batteries.  Even if you don't have transmit capability, the ability to listen to short wave radio could be worth a lot if there were such an event.

And your assumption that I'm not aware that Iran  has allowed inspections of its nukes because it's "far way" (or maybe because I'm stupid?) is just your hatred for Americans coming out again.  Its always there, right under the surface, waiting to bubble up. You conflate America the country with America the empire. You don't like American people because we live in a country with huge military and bad foreign policy. You only want to be friends with Americans you regard as proper activists who are out on the front lines of resistance. Never mind you yourself are a hermit who lives alone in a house in an Asian jungle, doing nothing at all.

( Feigned assumption I should say, because much of your pedantic lecturing is deliberate shit-talking and not some attempt to actually inform me or anybody else. You're getting your jollies, I get that, Mr. I-never-insult-people-or-use-bad-language.)

I'm aware that Iran allows inspections. I just don't regard UN inspections as conclusive proof of anything. You are the one who drinks the kool-aid. You are VERY predisposed to take any factoid presented by any country you regard as "anti-US imperialism" at face value. I'm skeptical of them, just like I'm skeptical of everybody else, including the USMIC.

I do not take Iran at face value. I don't regard UN weapons inspectors as infallible. I say maybe they're right. Inspections are good, as far as they go. US policy on Iran sucks. I am highly critical of just about ALL US foreign policy, but that isn't good enough for you and your extreme anti-American self-righteous POV.

Okay, now. Post another diatribe just like all the rest. You have more time than I do. I have a life, a job, a family, friends who speak my language, patients to take care of, and a long to-do list. You will no doubt get the last word in. Your ability to type exhaustively is not in question.

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[Nearingsfault]

I had not seen this one Eddie. I just ordered it actually. Its an issue I've given a lot of thought on. Look into the MIdnite solar ac dc lightning arrestors and their specifications. I've talked to one of their engineers and EMP was totally on their radar when they designed them... A master electrician friend of mine refers to the grounding section of the nec and the canadian electrical codes as the least specific worst understood section.
Cheers,  David

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[Eddie]

Welcome David. I was excited when I saw the book, but it probably won't tell you a lot you don't already know.

 A lot of it is aimed toward teaching how to design and build EMP protected buildings. Which is not necessarily easy, but is doable, and not prohibitive, if designed in. This guy tells you the right way to do it. Not necessarily useful for me personally.

That's what I'd call my takeaway. I WAS thinking about constructing a cage inside one of my boat storage stalls. I have my stored PV's there. I'm thinking the galvanized steel building itself might offer some protection, but a cage would be nice, and I could maybe think of a few other things to put in there. Another project I might get to or might not.

The book is good, but providing something the size of a house with EMP protection pretty much has to be designed in. And not negligible in expense.

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[Nearingsfault]

Welcome David. I was excited when I saw the book, but it probably won't tell you a lot you don't already know.

 A lot of it is aimed toward teaching how to design and build EMP protected buildings. Which is not necessarily easy, but is doable, and not prohibitive, if designed in. This guy tells you the right way to do it. Not necessarily useful for me personally.

That's what I'd call my takeaway. I WAS thinking about constructing a cage inside one of my boat storage stalls. I have my stored PV's there. I'm thinking the galvanized steel building itself might offer some protection, but a cage would be nice, and I could maybe think of a few other things to put in there. Another project I might get to or might not.

The book is good, but providing something the size of a house with EMP protection pretty much has to be designed in. And not negligible in expense.

knowledge is a good thing. Emp is a tricky beast from everything I've read. The tests with nukes that were conducted were inconclusive. Check out those arrestors; fusible MOVS less than a microsecond reaction time they do lightning but the specs should cover emp. For Faraday cages I was thinking steel barrels with the paint ground off the lid and lip contents isolated from sides. Gear in boxes should be immune. Panel well grounded to racks and earthed; should be fine. Ac inverter and batteries as long as it's a bonded neutral type with arrestor should be fine. The weak link will be the charge controllers. Too many components to be sure. Arrestor sure but maybe a stored spare. I have some stored controllers but I have easy access to gear so it's an occupational hazard.

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[Palloy2]

Eddie: I give 3-2 odds Iran and North Korea both have EMP weapons already.

For North Korea that is true, because they have stated it and tested a nuclear weapon.  For Iran it is not true.  Even the National Intelligence Estimates in 2007 and 2011 admitted as much, and the "nuclear weapons program before 2004" part is probably not true.  They have nuclear power and have been refused fuel rod replacements by US and by Argentina (through US coersion), so they decided to do 3.6% enrichment to be self-sufficient.   All this is allowed under the NPT agreement.  They have IAEA inspections, and allowed extra inspections when the Additional Protocols were in force.  When they abandoned the Additional Protocols, because the US was blocking further multi-party talks, the US said they couldn't abandon the Additional Protocols, and then declared them to be in contravention.  Nobody else agrees, obviously.

I know it's a long away from home and therefore boring, but not concentrating on the facts mean drinking the koolaid, which you have, hence the above quoted US-propaganda lie, along with all the others.

All nuclear weapons produce EMPs when used above 25 kms (mid-stratosphere).  The frequency spectrum of the interference is divided into 3 according to the type of damage produced.  E1 is very fast (< 1 microsecond) and will fry electronic chips in computers and phones and cars and industrial control systems.  E2 is slower (<1 millisecond) and can be intercepted and avoided by surge protectors.  E3 is very slow (> 1 second) and affects long power lines and fences.  Solar storms can only produce E3.  Solid Faraday cages will protect your items if they are in it when it happens.  Copper mesh of very fine size (< 1mm) might also work if no cables go in or out. Non-nuclear EMP weapons are very weak by comparison and need to be highly targeted.
should work.  It is pretty silly to bother with Faraday Cages as there won't be any power or internet services afterwards

Just noticed this one from several days back. I'm responding to it for one reason, and that reason is that it's a fine example of your prejudice and passive-aggressive behavior toward me, and your stunning rudeness.

For Iran it is not true.  Even the National Intelligence Estimates in 2007 and 2011 admitted as much, and the "nuclear weapons program before 2004" part is probably not true.  They have nuclear power and have been refused fuel rod replacements by US and by Argentina (through US coersion), so they decided to do 3.6% enrichment to be self-sufficient.   All this is allowed under the NPT agreement.  They have IAEA inspections, and allowed extra inspections when the Additional Protocols were in force.  When they abandoned the Additional Protocols, because the US was blocking further multi-party talks, the US said they couldn't abandon the Additional Protocols, and then declared them to be in contravention.  Nobody else agrees, obviously.

I know it's a long away from home and therefore boring, but not concentrating on the facts mean drinking the koolaid, which you have, hence the above quoted US-propaganda lie, along with all the others.

That last part is very typical of your tendency to act like a douchebag any time I say things you don't happen to like or agree with. In fact lately it's pretty much ANYTHING I say.

You jump to the conclusion that you know something technical about EMP effects that the rest of us, including myself, don't know, because we lack your deep understanding of physics and mathematics. Then you proceed to lecture us, as if we didn't read nearly all the same things, and as if you're an expert, which you aren't.

I've read most of the best book that exists about EMP, and I posted a link to it here. I have it somewhere.



People should make Faraday cages, at least small ones, and use them to store communications devices like conventional two-way radios that run off batteries.  Even if you don't have transmit capability, the ability to listen to short wave radio could be worth a lot if there were such an event.

And your assumption that I'm not aware that Iran  has allowed inspections of its nukes because it's "far way" (or maybe because I'm stupid?) is just your hatred for Americans coming out again.  Its always there, right under the surface, waiting to bubble up. You conflate America the country with America the empire. You don't like American people because we live in a country with huge military and bad foreign policy. You only want to be friends with Americans you regard as proper activists who are out on the front lines of resistance. Never mind you yourself are a hermit who lives alone in a house in an Asian jungle, doing nothing at all.

( Feigned assumption I should say, because much of your pedantic lecturing is deliberate shit-talking and not some attempt to actually inform me or anybody else. You're getting your jollies, I get that, Mr. I-never-insult-people-or-use-bad-language.)

I'm aware that Iran allows inspections. I just don't regard UN inspections as conclusive proof of anything. You are the one who drinks the kool-aid. You are VERY predisposed to take any factoid presented by any country you regard as "anti-US imperialism" at face value. I'm skeptical of them, just like I'm skeptical of everybody else, including the USMIC.

I do not take Iran at face value. I don't regard UN weapons inspectors as infallible. I say maybe they're right. Inspections are good, as far as they go. US policy on Iran sucks. I am highly critical of just about ALL US foreign policy, but that isn't good enough for you and your extreme anti-American self-righteous POV.

Okay, now. Post another diatribe just like all the rest. You have more time than I do. I have a life, a job, a family, friends who speak my language, patients to take care of, and a long to-do list. You will no doubt get the last word in. Your ability to type exhaustively is not in question.

Another bile-filled response to my pointing out the ridiculous statement "I give 3-2 odds Iran and North Korea both have EMP weapons already." as if you had carefully weighed up the chances and found them to be 60 - 40%.  I am old and have been sick for 20 years so I have effectively retired, but before that I was an activist. (I still emailed the Australian Foreign Minister over their support for Israel last week, and got a short acknowledgement today).  It is true I only respect activists.   The American people have a moral duty to DO MORE than work and pay their taxes and enjoy their wealth and good fortune, if they dislike their Government's foreign policy.  Those that continue to be model US Citizens while calling their other countrymen sheeple, dumb, stupid and the rest, are not respected by me.

Palloy:  It is pretty silly to bother with Faraday Cages as there won't be any power or internet services afterwards.

PV panels might survive and be useful, but if they are in a Faraday cage they are not being used, and who has so much money they can afford to buy panels they are not going to use?

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[jdwheeler42]

Welcome David. I was excited when I saw the book, but it probably won't tell you a lot you don't already know.

 A lot of it is aimed toward teaching how to design and build EMP protected buildings. Which is not necessarily easy, but is doable, and not prohibitive, if designed in. This guy tells you the right way to do it. Not necessarily useful for me personally.

That's what I'd call my takeaway. I WAS thinking about constructing a cage inside one of my boat storage stalls. I have my stored PV's there. I'm thinking the galvanized steel building itself might offer some protection, but a cage would be nice, and I could maybe think of a few other things to put in there. Another project I might get to or might not.

The book is good, but providing something the size of a house with EMP protection pretty much has to be designed in. And not negligible in expense.

I actually lived in a dorm that was a partial Faraday cage - built after the discovery of radio waves but before the deployment of commercial radio stations.  I learned to really love CDs there.  And when I lived there was well before the era of ubiquitous cell phones, I can't imagine what current students must go through.

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[Eddie]

Those that continue to be model US Citizens while calling their other countrymen sheeple, dumb, stupid and the rest, are not respected by me.

I treated you with complete respect until you chose to start fucking with me. If you fuck with me I will call you out from now until one of us drops dead or the internet goes dark.

I don't care what you think about me at all. You aren't fit to judge me, and I find your constant passive-aggressive muttering offensive.  Old age and sickness are not a license to act like a shitheel.

I reject your argument that because I am aware of collapse, that it is my duty to do something to change the world. This divide, between people who feel the way you do, and people who feel the way I do, is not uncommon among doomers. That's what destroyed McPherson's site. I hope it doesn't destroy this one.

My view (and I'm not alone by any stretch of the imagination) is that my highest duty is to myself and my family. Activism is fine for those who feel compelled to engage in it, but the likelihood of activists preventing a die-off in the next several years is exactly zero, in my opinion.

I say that, not because I'm a doomer, or because I'm pessimistic in general. I say it because there is no evidence whatsoever that activism has done, or will do anything to prevent collapse.  CO₂ keeps going up. Cheap oil keeps going away, BAU keeps wasting resources. The cake is baked.

Some people become monks. Some people write pamphlets. I try to prep and shape my life in a way that will prepare me and the people I care about for a harder, lower energy future where food might be the scarcest commodity. I don't expect to succeed, necessarily, in saving myself or anybody else.

So when hardcore idealists like yourself want to tell me what I "should" do, my response is to tell them to stop shoulding shitting on me.

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[Eddie]

I intended to put my PV panels into use, but for several reasons I have not done so to date. But that's okay.

I  think having some panels laid back for the future is a reasonable investment. I see Harley-Davidson motorcycles in a whole lot of boomer garages, sitting collecting dust. They could have spent that $20K on an an array, a charge controller or two, and some inverters just as easily. It isn't a lack of money keeping people from getting them.

Why not store PV? Right now I can buy all the power I want for 12 cents a kWH. Save the solar for future needs.

The main reason to use PV now is to learn how to use it appropriately, and how to live off batteries. Batteries are the Achilles heel of all DIY power systems.

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[Nearingsfault]

I intended to put my PV panels into use, but for several reasons I have not done so to date. But that's okay.

I  think having some panels laid back for the future is a reasonable investment. I see Harley-Davidson motorcycles in a whole lot of boomer garages, sitting collecting dust. They could have spent that $20K on an an array, a charge controller or two, and some inverters just as easily. It isn't a lack of money keeping people from getting them.

Why not store PV? Right now I can buy all the power I want for 12 cents a kWH. Save the solar for future needs.

The main reason to use PV now is to learn how to use it appropriately, and how to live off batteries. Batteries are the Achilles heel of all DIY power systems.

You are not alone Eddie. There are a lot of voices talking about stockpiling PV. There are a hell of a lot of worse things to spend money on. They are dirt cheap right now between subsidies and China's massive buildup. I don't think the world can keep those kinds of production numbers so prices might rise. I try to find the dregs; old systems we tear out, leftovers etc. Sitting 20 or 30 in a container is not crazy. Some people go so far as to have un activated lead acid batteries and store the acid for later use. Others choose nickel iron and stockpile electrolyte replacement. Having a backup inverter is a good plan. My main is a Magnum 4024 but I have 2 older units on a shelf (free). I'm trying to find some mppt charger for the stores but still too new to turn up used. I might invest in an offshore mppt as a backup to my outback fm60s.
David

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[Eddie]

It's hard to buy lead acid batteries here now without electrolyte. I remember when I was a kid it was the norm. You bought the battery and added the electrolyte, which came separate. I suppose that has to do with the cost of transporting things with a hazmat stamp, and OSHA. Stupid.

I always wanted to stockpile nickel-iron. I went so far as to email Iron Edison and suggest they should come up with a pay-as-you-go plan to allow people like me to buy one or two cells a month, rather than going into debt to buy some 1000 Ah bank. They never got back to me on that. Everybody is a capitalist. LOL.

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[Nearingsfault]

It's hard to buy lead acid batteries here now without electrolyte. I remember when I was a kid it was the norm. You bought the battery and added the electrolyte, which came separate. I suppose that has to do with the cost of transporting things with a hazmat stamp, and OSHA. Stupid.

I always wanted to stockpile nickel-iron. I went so far as to email Iron Edison and suggest they should come up with a pay-as-you-go plan to allow people like me to buy one or two cells a month, rather than going into debt to buy some 1000 Ah bank. They never got back to me on that. Everybody is a capitalist. LOL.

I have a guy who ordered a skid from the chinese factory that makes them for Iron Edison. The case is supposedly thinner but the insides are the same. Half price even with shipping. I would order spares in case of quality control issues. I can get the link somewhere.

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[RE]

The main reason to use PV now is to learn how to use it appropriately, and how to live off batteries. Batteries are the Achilles heel of all DIY power systems.

I will drop back in from Lurkerville to comment here on this, because this a long time Pet Project I have wanted to undertake.  Unfortunately I have some heavy duty Computer Woes ongoing so I can't provide you with drawings at the moment.  I will try to describe with text only.

The idea is to store your energy the same way Nature does, with Gravitational Potential, aka distance of a mass abve ground level.  That is how all the energy gets stored when water evaporates and rises into the atmosphere, then gives it back up on the way down causing powerful Lightning and ferocious winds.  It's the principle all Hydro Dams work on. where the water is stored in a large lake and a Dam is built to hold the water back, with turbines turning as

My idea is to develop mechanical storage for the excess power you are generating with the right conditions, then get back later when you need the stored power.  It doesn't HAVE to be chemically in a lead acid or nickel-iron , it can be done mechanically as well, and quite simply.

What I would do is build a few towers, maybe 20' high with a large weight suspended from the towers, say a ton for a small setup.  During high energy periods, the weight is cranked up to its maximum height of 20'.  You gear the motor to the weight at very low gear in order to have enough power to lift ths weight.  A good mororcycle tranny would work well here.  My BMW had a low gear so fucking low you couldn't do more that 2 MH with over revving the engine.  I doubt you would have to go that low though.

Then, in periods of low power, you simply reverse the whole process.  You let the big weight DROP, but very slowly because of the gearing.  It turns the genny very fast though at the other end, producing your electricity.

Now, you ectrical wizards will probably call me out on Efficiency, because it has friciton problems on both sides of the equation, not to mention the energy conversion  of 2 stages, PV to mechanical, and then mechanical back to electric.  But that doesn't matter as long as you have enough excess energy to raise the weights and enough towers build to store this energy.

In the Good Old Days of the First Convocation before I became a Complete Cripple, I hoped to pursue this project on Eddie's Toothstead, with Roamer to help get the towers built and everything wired up right.  But alas, that never came to pass, and probably never will.  It still exists in my Imagination though.

RE

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[agelbert]

To RE: About that gravity system you are pondering - check this out

If this is applied on a somewhat smaller scale, it will work better than a tower mechanism, simply because it is less exposed to the elements:



January 18, 2018

Spiegel / Heindl Energy

German company plans large-scale power storage using massive rock block

Southern German company Heindl Energy proposes to overcome one of the energy transition’s central challenges – how to store renewable electricity on a large scale – with a pumped hydro system that does not require mountains, reports Ralph Diermann for Spiegel Online.

The company wants to use a massive rock piston with a diameter of at least 100 metres, which is lifted hydraulically using electrical pumps powered by renewable energy. Storage experts told the author that the idea is valid in principle, but many technical hurdles will have to be overcome. Heindl Energy, which has received support from a venture capital investor, is currently in negotiations to build a pilot project with a diameter of 20 metres in Saudi Arabia.

About Gravity Storage

Gravity Storage is a concept with which unprecedentedly large quantities of power can be stored for a long time of 6-14 hours, and can be made available again.

The fundamental principle is based on the hydraulic lifting of a large rock mass. Using electrical pumps, as already used today in pumped storage power plants, water is pumped beneath a movable rock piston, thereby lifting the rock mass.

During times of insufficient generation of renewable power, the water which is under high pressure from the rock mass, is routed to a turbine, as in conventional hydroelectric plants, and generates electricity using a generator.

The capacity of energy storage reaches 8 GWh or more  , comparable to large Pumped Hydro Storage.

The rock piston should have a diameter of at least 100 meters in order to be competitive with pumped storage power plants. The real costs will vary for each site. But we calculate with costs of about 200 USD/kWh capacity at a size of 250-meter diameter.

READ MORE:

https://www.heindl-energy.com/technical-concept/

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[roamer]

RE,
I'll come out of super lurkerville for this. If you want to fund your gravity energy storage system or any other doom tech I'll design and build.  I'd skip the towers though since we have a nice hill at my partners farm.  I'd just drag a old trailers loaded with a total of 100 ton up a hill with DC motor/gen.  100 ft of vertical after frictional loses (est @ 20%) would yield around 6kwhr of storage. 

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[roamer]

AG,
Very cool concept, good find!

To RE: About that gravity system you are pondering - check this out

If this is applied on a somewhat smaller scale, it will work better than a tower mechanism, simply because it is less exposed to the elements:



January 18, 2018

Spiegel / Heindl Energy

German company plans large-scale power storage using massive rock block

Southern German company Heindl Energy proposes to overcome one of the energy transition’s central challenges – how to store renewable electricity on a large scale – with a pumped hydro system that does not require mountains, reports Ralph Diermann for Spiegel Online.

The company wants to use a massive rock piston with a diameter of at least 100 metres, which is lifted hydraulically using electrical pumps powered by renewable energy. Storage experts told the author that the idea is valid in principle, but many technical hurdles will have to be overcome. Heindl Energy, which has received support from a venture capital investor, is currently in negotiations to build a pilot project with a diameter of 20 metres in Saudi Arabia.

About Gravity Storage

Gravity Storage is a concept with which unprecedentedly large quantities of power can be stored for a long time of 6-14 hours, and can be made available again.

The fundamental principle is based on the hydraulic lifting of a large rock mass. Using electrical pumps, as already used today in pumped storage power plants, water is pumped beneath a movable rock piston, thereby lifting the rock mass.

During times of insufficient generation of renewable power, the water which is under high pressure from the rock mass, is routed to a turbine, as in conventional hydroelectric plants, and generates electricity using a generator.

The capacity of energy storage reaches 8 GWh or more  , comparable to large Pumped Hydro Storage.

The rock piston should have a diameter of at least 100 meters in order to be competitive with pumped storage power plants. The real costs will vary for each site. But we calculate with costs of about 200 USD/kWh capacity at a size of 250-meter diameter.

READ MORE:

https://www.heindl-energy.com/technical-concept/

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