AuthorTopic: 💡 Electrical Resilience  (Read 18616 times)

Offline roamer

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Re: Re: Zionist Apartheid State Thread
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2018, 04:22:33 PM »
AG,
Check these german guys out http://www.sun-orbit.de/  They have pretty much realized all my best ideas on synergistic greenhouse energy systems.  They are all combined power solar thermal systems based on low speed high volume stirling engine systems. 

Offline RE

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Re: Re: Zionist Apartheid State Thread
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2018, 04:24:35 PM »
To RE: About that gravity system you are pondering - check this out

If this is applied on a somewhat smaller scale, it will work better than a tower mechanism, simply because it is less exposed to the elements:

This is the principle.  Good find AG.  The difference in efficiency between going down into the ground versus going up is not going to be very significant.  For a big system, it's necessary because building any tower you could haul up that much mass with would be prohibitively expensive, not to mention not very safe.

I think more on the small scale for the individual or small community.  Big storage plants like this would be run by the Big Energy companies as the shift is made from FFs as a profit center for the elite.

In most cases, it would be impractical and too expensive to dig the big hole deep enough to fit your mass.  You could much more easily weld together a TeePee frame from steel pipe with a hexagonal patern of supports that could handle pulling up a Ton into the air 20" high.  Or you could split the difference and dig your hole 10' deep and have the tower lift the mass 10' more than that.  You also are not restricted to just one of these storage units, you could build several of them, one for each of your banks of PV Panels or Wind Turbines.  There are 100's of millions of Car & Truck alternators available you could reconfigure to work with your system.  All DIY stuff, no fancy chemical processing necessary.  The whole system can be tested out first on a very small scal in the backyard  with much less weight, probably 500 lbs would be a good size to start with.  Scale it up once you empirically determine how well it works.

The lifting weight can be just about anything reasonably Dense, Sandbags or 55 Gal barrels of water for instance.  Your mechanical transmission as I mentioned could come from any off-road bike designed for trail riding that has a really low gear.  Buy that on the used market cheap also.  You can even buy a wrecked one (many of those after any race) for pennies.  All the rest of the hardware available at your local Home Depot.

It would be interesting to see how big a system you would need for a renewable array the size of the one DB runs.  Time for a new project DB!  :icon_sunny:

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Offline RE

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Re: Re: Zionist Apartheid State Thread
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2018, 04:29:50 PM »
RE,
I'll come out of super lurkerville for this. If you want to fund your gravity energy storage system or any other doom tech I'll design and build.  I'd skip the towers though since we have a nice hill at my partners farm.  I'd just drag a old trailers loaded with a total of 100 ton up a hill with DC motor/gen.  100 ft of vertical after frictional loses (est @ 20%) would yield around 6kwhr of storage.

Glad to see you out of Lurkerville and interested in this project Roamer.  Let's get started building the Prototype!  :icon_sunny:

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Offline roamer

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Re: Re: Zionist Apartheid State Thread
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2018, 06:42:56 PM »
RE,
Three approaches come to mind at small scale.
1) Pumped micro hydro storage
2) Drag/roll trailer up/down a hill
3)Raised mass using a structure.

Most important point to understand is gravitational energy density is extremely low, 1 ton raised 100 ft only stores .076 kwhr.  A little over 25 ton raised 100 ft stores 1kwhr.  Building towers option 3 is expensive, building short towers less so.  Still at 10 ft of elevation difference you'd need to be moving 250 tons to get 1kwhr of storage.  Perhaps cement piers raising stone?  I think though it seems infeasible.  Moving up the list to #2 we could drag trailers up a hill and roll them down.  You'd need heavy hoist motor and cable at those mass amounts.  Thinking the winch is $1000 the cable $500 the trailer $1000 the controller and tie in $??  Maybe it could be done for <$3000   Option 1 is probably the most reasonable.  Each 225 gallons of water would store a kwhr over 100' of elevation.  The pumps and generator could be had for <$1000 the piping <$1000 and maybe a total system of <$3000.

However as cools as something like this is, its probably worth comparing to battery tech at this point.  That same 1 kwr storage can be had for like $400/kwhr and a tiny fraction of the space.



Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: Re: Zionist Apartheid State Thread
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2018, 07:02:27 PM »
To RE: About that gravity system you are pondering - check this out

If this is applied on a somewhat smaller scale, it will work better than a tower mechanism, simply because it is less exposed to the elements:

This is the principle.  Good find AG.  The difference in efficiency between going down into the ground versus going up is not going to be very significant.  For a big system, it's necessary because building any tower you could haul up that much mass with would be prohibitively expensive, not to mention not very safe.

I think more on the small scale for the individual or small community.  Big storage plants like this would be run by the Big Energy companies as the shift is made from FFs as a profit center for the elite.

In most cases, it would be impractical and too expensive to dig the big hole deep enough to fit your mass.  You could much more easily weld together a TeePee frame from steel pipe with a hexagonal patern of supports that could handle pulling up a Ton into the air 20" high.  Or you could split the difference and dig your hole 10' deep and have the tower lift the mass 10' more than that.  You also are not restricted to just one of these storage units, you could build several of them, one for each of your banks of PV Panels or Wind Turbines.  There are 100's of millions of Car & Truck alternators available you could reconfigure to work with your system.  All DIY stuff, no fancy chemical processing necessary.  The whole system can be tested out first on a very small scal in the backyard  with much less weight, probably 500 lbs would be a good size to start with.  Scale it up once you empirically determine how well it works.

The lifting weight can be just about anything reasonably Dense, Sandbags or 55 Gal barrels of water for instance.  Your mechanical transmission as I mentioned could come from any off-road bike designed for trail riding that has a really low gear.  Buy that on the used market cheap also.  You can even buy a wrecked one (many of those after any race) for pennies.  All the rest of the hardware available at your local Home Depot.

It would be interesting to see how big a system you would need for a renewable array the size of the one DB runs.  Time for a new project DB!  :icon_sunny:

RE
Planted onion starts, 3 varieties of potato, corn, kale replanted some garlic , watered the starts in the greenhouse, and played with the new tractor... too exhausted to start something new. BUT...
I use surette s550 batteries. Each one is rated at 6 volts and 400 amp hours over 20 hours... of course the battery full is actually at 6.4 and 24 hour rate would be more... To keep it easy say each battery stores 2.5 kW Hr. To get 10 or 12 years out of it you don't want to cycle more than 50% so say 1.25kW Hr useable energy. I have 8 of them. total useable storage without destroying them is 10kW Hr... The house factoring in equipment losses and battery thrueput uses 5kW Hr per day in oh shit mode. That is lights, fridge, freezer, lights, water pump and circulator pumps. So as a bare bones system we would have to build a 5kW Hr hoist. I know if I was to do something like this I would only do it with lots of land. If I had said land I would search out a natural change in elevation and exploit it. When I ran the numbers 7 or 8 years ago I figured water was the way to go. There are higher losses compared to your plan but its more discreet and no chance of a willy coyote moment when the winch cable snaps.
Now cost. Each battery costs $400 canadian so $300 US so $2400 for a 10 year life span to provide 10kW Hr per day so $1200 to deliver 5kW Hr per day for 10 years... Your system must cost less that $1200 to build and last 10 years. That is the BAU price of course if the world turns to POO the economics would work more in your favour.
OK I need sleep.
Cheers,  David B.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 07:10:01 PM by David B. »
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline Palloy2

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Re: Re: Zionist Apartheid State Thread
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2018, 07:17:20 PM »
I'll take that as an attempt at peace-making and reciprocate.  :icon_sunny:

When I bounce your own words (selected sentences) back at you, and in response you call me "full of shit" and other insults, I don't respond happily either and I don't think any other Diner would.  People that only know me through my writings (often in local newspapers) and then meet me face to face often comment that I am much nicer in person.  I take that as a compliment of my writing style, which is supposed to be in hard-edged newspaper style.

I have also been told I have a professorial style, giving little lectures to people on scientific subjects.  This is because I find the audience generally has a very poor grasp of scientific subjects and/or a very sloppy way of putting things when they need to be accurate.

For example, RE's energy storage system, as gravitational potential energy, is neatly expressed as:
E = m.g.h
where m is mass, h is height and g is the gravitational constant.
The units have to be converted to a consistent system, here the Metre-Kilogram-Second system giving an answer in Joules.

So lifting a tonne up a metre against earth's gravity, takes
Energy = (1,000 0.981 1) = 981 joules  = 981 watts for 1 second
  = 0.272 watts for 1 hour

which is not much, and explains why you need to do it on an unfeasibly BIG scale to store a useful amount of energy.
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Offline RE

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Re: Re: Zionist Apartheid State Thread
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2018, 07:21:05 PM »
RE,
Three approaches come to mind at small scale.
1) Pumped micro hydro storage
2) Drag/roll trailer up/down a hill
3)Raised mass using a structure.

Most important point to understand is gravitational energy density is extremely low, 1 ton raised 100 ft only stores .076 kwhr.  A little over 25 ton raised 100 ft stores 1kwhr.  Building towers option 3 is expensive, building short towers less so.  Still at 10 ft of elevation difference you'd need to be moving 250 tons to get 1kwhr of storage.  Perhaps cement piers raising stone?  I think though it seems infeasible.  Moving up the list to #2 we could drag trailers up a hill and roll them down.  You'd need heavy hoist motor and cable at those mass amounts.  Thinking the winch is $1000 the cable $500 the trailer $1000 the controller and tie in $??  Maybe it could be done for <$3000   Option 1 is probably the most reasonable.  Each 225 gallons of water would store a kwhr over 100' of elevation.  The pumps and generator could be had for <$1000 the piping <$1000 and maybe a total system of <$3000.

However as cools as something like this is, its probably worth comparing to battery tech at this point.  That same 1 kwr storage can be had for like $400/kwhr and a tiny fraction of the space.

Well, for the Test Protoype it really doesn't matter how much energy it will store and you can get back, it will scale up.

The next question is how much storage does the individual Prepper need here?  How many KwHours is really necessary in a typical situation using all low energy consuming electrical devices?

Based on your early numbers, I would go with a 25' Hole in the Ground (you and LD can have a months long Digging Competitiion) and a 25' Tower above that.  What would the weight be?  I would try a 20 long ConEx filled with Concrete as a starter.  This will weigh well over 40 Tons.  How many KwHrs do you get out of 40 Tons raised 50'?

You will of course need more than steel pipe for this tower.  It might be built from reeinforced concrete, or you could use steel I-Beams.  You'll need a heck of a winch to yank this load up, no matter how you gear it.  You'll also probably want to get your gearing off a wrecked big rig, that will keep those costs down.  Cable will be a significant cost as well, that will need to be some prety thick and heavy stuff too.

In terms of cost efficiency, right now the chemical storage system is cheaper, but you depend on many things to keep that system running in the post collapse world.  This system has more resilience.  So it's a trade off.  I'd estimate WAG $20K to have a system good enough to run a house at typcal energy usage in a farm community.

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Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: Re: Zionist Apartheid State Thread
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2018, 08:04:09 PM »
AG,
Check these german guys out http://www.sun-orbit.de/  They have pretty much realized all my best ideas on synergistic greenhouse energy systems.  They are all combined power solar thermal systems based on low speed high volume stirling engine systems.
Thanks for the link. ill have to dive in when I'm more awake. low temp differential sterlings are very cool. I have not seen one quite like that before.
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline Agent Graves

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Re: Re: Zionist Apartheid State Thread
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2018, 08:28:27 PM »
I intended to put my PV panels into use, but for several reasons I have not done so to date. But that's okay.

I  think having some panels laid back for the future is a reasonable investment. I see Harley-Davidson motorcycles in a whole lot of boomer garages, sitting collecting dust. They could have spent that $20K on an an array, a charge controller or two, and some inverters just as easily. It isn't a lack of money keeping people from getting them.

Why not store PV? Right now I can buy all the power I want for 12 cents a kWH. Save the solar for future needs.

The main reason to use PV now is to learn how to use it appropriately, and how to live off batteries. Batteries are the Achilles heel of all DIY power systems.

Rats eating wiring is higher on the list.
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Offline RE

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💡 Electrical Resilience
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2018, 12:00:16 AM »
I split off this topic from the Zionist thread, because the thread drift was simply totally off the original topic of the article.  It also deserves its own thread due to the interest of many Diners in having resilient electrical systems when SHTF Day arrives.  Topic now housed on the Sustainable Energy board and made a Sticky.

I'm still here folks, just not going to deal with the vitriol some Diners are prone to and which cause havoc on the forum.  Surly has Inherited the Wind there.

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Offline RE

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Re: 💡 Electrical Resilience
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2018, 04:06:19 AM »
I KNEW you would pull this, so let's review the bidding, shall we? I'll just leave this here, proving to the general readership that the tantrum was yours, not mine. The King Hell Troll of All the Internets can't bear it when someone tells him to lighten up. Point being that adults can generally work shit out. Which, as you may have noticed, they already have.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with Palloy.

In any event, whoever "started this", the result is the same.  Management of the Diner Forum is now in your hands.  You cre Captain of this Ship now.

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Offline Eddie

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Re: Rats In The Rigging
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2018, 05:33:06 AM »
I intended to put my PV panels into use, but for several reasons I have not done so to date. But that's okay.

I  think having some panels laid back for the future is a reasonable investment. I see Harley-Davidson motorcycles in a whole lot of boomer garages, sitting collecting dust. They could have spent that $20K on an an array, a charge controller or two, and some inverters just as easily. It isn't a lack of money keeping people from getting them.

Why not store PV? Right now I can buy all the power I want for 12 cents a kWH. Save the solar for future needs.

The main reason to use PV now is to learn how to use it appropriately, and how to live off batteries. Batteries are the Achilles heel of all DIY power systems.

Rats eating wiring is higher on the list.

Spoken like a man with practical experience. Rats certainly are a problem in these parts.

I wouldn't think they'd be able to do much to panels stacked on a pallet, not much wiring there. Do rats like silicon? Dunno.

Some of my discount panels came with pigtails, some did not. But stacked tightly the frames provide some protection. But I haven't unstacked them for inspection, and they've been there for a few years now. Maybe....could be....Not like the rats aren't there. They are.

The other good stuff  I've managed to stockpile, including a couple of nice Midnite Solar charge controllers, and some lesser quality inverters, is in another location out at the stead. Also a high rat area, but I haven't noticed a problem. I should take the covers off and inspect them.

As far as wiring, I have not bought all the wire I need, although I keep my eye out for good used stuff. There are enough installers around here that there is a little bit of a surplus market on CL, and I have a few heavy cables for the low voltage side, but not all the stuff to build a bank. I had several good big batteries on trickle chargers, but dogs and humans around my house both have been a problem with keeping them hooked up. And rust in the clamps......and sun damage to the insulation on the cheap chargers I bought from Harbor Freight. I should have put the batteries inside, but I didn't.

The biggest surprise I got when I started trying to cobble together a small system was how much wiring costs. It's easy to spend more for wiring than for any individual high-dollar component.

I know from experience that mud daubers are apt to build a nest in just about anything they can crawl into around here, even inside the water channels of an engine block, if it sits long enough. They almost killed my AC unit at the lake cottage. Managed to glue the air handier fan to its housing. I was lucky I figured it out before the motor burned out.

Rust never sleeps. Rats are voracious. We have different rats here than they do in the Disney movies. Those ones are so cute and cuddly.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 05:35:26 AM by Eddie »
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Offline roamer

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Re: 💡 Electrical Resilience
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2018, 06:42:22 AM »
Since we've swayed into electrical resilience I'd like to propose a doomstead electrical resilience project that I think deserves higher attention than gravitational energy storage.

Imagine an off grid stand alone greenhouse that yields food, energy and purified water year round operating autonomously off of solar energy.   Imagine that this greenhouse through synergistic combination of existing technology can for $2000 provide a modest but adequate system to any earnest doomster.  That is the vision of the solar max survival greenhouse I wish to build. 

The guts of the machine are basic 4' long fresnel lens that focus sunlight on a strip of connected PV cells.  This energy harvesting strategy depending on degree of concentration yields 5-10x the output per square area of solar cell, this strategy though is avoided by utilities because the panels then require cooling.  This problem actually becomes a product in the synergistic approach, the thermal energy is captured and stored in insulated chambers to help regulate in cool periods or later down the road to run a simple low speed brayton or stirling engine cycle. Whats more the fresnel lens still admits adequate light for growing greens in the aquaponic system.

The initial prototype will focus on producing just enough electrical energy to operate its own systems without need for battery backup or inverter.  Excess electrical energy will be stored in various sinks such as a 12v dc refrigerator compressor dedicated to cooling an insulated walk in cool room which will function as year round refrigerator.  Another sink will be elevated water storage for the gravity feed aquaponic system. 

Different climates will require different strategies, a northern or southern version may require low grade geothermal tubes to assist in climate control, artic conditions would require a supplemental rocket stove and a thermal mechanical engine.

Though each region will require a particular configuration the strategy of capturing the full spectrum of the sun in a controlled environment of a greenhouse and accomplishing as much critical survival work is equally applicable everywhere. 


Ok end of sales pitch, I got a sketchup model I'm working on and a prototype bill of materials.  What I don't got is the spare couple grand or so I need for parts to build this first prototype.  What I want to find out is if the doom community would have enough interest to crowdfund the development?


Offline Agent Graves

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Re: Rats In The Rigging
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2018, 07:05:04 AM »


Spoken like a man with

Im not the one on the left in the avatar hahaha

I guess storing all that instead of using it now means it will all have a longer years of use starting from new, when you do set it all up. Remember that even when batteries are finished, it just means you cant have electricity at night, but you can still run appliances during the day as long as the sun is shining. Aircon and washing machine in full sun and TV/stereo in cloudy sky. 

Just to avoid the rats eating wiring, i recommend running it all higher up out of reach than down low near the ground.
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Offline RE

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Re: 💡 Electrical Resilience
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2018, 07:22:00 AM »
Since we've swayed into electrical resilience I'd like to propose a doomstead electrical resilience project that I think deserves higher attention than gravitational energy storage.

Start a new thread for that.

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