AuthorTopic: 💡 Electrical Resilience  (Read 2406 times)

Offline Eddie

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Re: 💡 Electrical Resilience
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2018, 07:54:22 AM »
Since we've swayed into electrical resilience I'd like to propose a doomstead electrical resilience project that I think deserves higher attention than gravitational energy storage.

Imagine an off grid stand alone greenhouse that yields food, energy and purified water year round operating autonomously off of solar energy.   Imagine that this greenhouse through synergistic combination of existing technology can for $2000 provide a modest but adequate system to any earnest doomster.  That is the vision of the solar max survival greenhouse I wish to build. 

The guts of the machine are basic 4' long fresnel lens that focus sunlight on a strip of connected PV cells.  This energy harvesting strategy depending on degree of concentration yields 5-10x the output per square area of solar cell, this strategy though is avoided by utilities because the panels then require cooling.  This problem actually becomes a product in the synergistic approach, the thermal energy is captured and stored in insulated chambers to help regulate in cool periods or later down the road to run a simple low speed brayton or stirling engine cycle. Whats more the fresnel lens still admits adequate light for growing greens in the aquaponic system.

The initial prototype will focus on producing just enough electrical energy to operate its own systems without need for battery backup or inverter.  Excess electrical energy will be stored in various sinks such as a 12v dc refrigerator compressor dedicated to cooling an insulated walk in cool room which will function as year round refrigerator.  Another sink will be elevated water storage for the gravity feed aquaponic system. 

Different climates will require different strategies, a northern or southern version may require low grade geothermal tubes to assist in climate control, artic conditions would require a supplemental rocket stove and a thermal mechanical engine.

Though each region will require a particular configuration the strategy of capturing the full spectrum of the sun in a controlled environment of a greenhouse and accomplishing as much critical survival work is equally applicable everywhere. 


Ok end of sales pitch, I got a sketchup model I'm working on and a prototype bill of materials.  What I don't got is the spare couple grand or so I need for parts to build this first prototype.  What I want to find out is if the doom community would have enough interest to crowdfund the development?

That sort of food machine is the future for this part of the world, but I'd like to see a prototype big enough to feed a family.

I suspect cooling tubes are not ultimately going to be enough for this heat, with further warming. But a geothermal well would do it. People with money to burn are putting in geothermal AC here and ditching the freon. I see no reason you couldn't build a long term sustainable greenhouse with geothermal cooling. Right now, anyway. Not after BAU goes away.

Not a $2K project. The good ones are never that cheap. I doubt you could even build what you're talking about as a prototype for anywhere near the budget you envision. But at least you are competent to build it. Most people with ideas can't build anything. And not all good ideas pan out.

I don't put any money into crowdfunding for anything. I think it's a flawed concept, generally speaking. As in money flushed down a toilet. But I'm not sitting on a ton of cash. My own non-demo projects are always waiting on money. Crowdfunding is for urban idealists with no farm.

What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline roamer

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Re: 💡 Electrical Resilience
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2018, 08:07:24 AM »
Eddie, The units I want to build will not feed a family or an individual, they will produce your salad year round basically with no  inputs and provide you a free refrigerator and water storage/capture.  It is a resilient hedge not an autonomous stand alone system, at least not for the first prototypes.  I think I can build the simplest no frills most cost effective version.  I agree too texas would take deep expensive geothermal. 

I actually agree with you on crowdfunding, I guess I am just curious.  I'd be building this thing yesterday if I could justify it economincally, but after losing my crypto gamblings and milk prices in the shitter kind of hard to motivate actually doing any of this. 

However I am very happy to see that http://www.sun-orbit.de/ are a company who have basically realized similar concepts.  If you were looking for a system maybe you could consider being there first american customer?

Offline Eddie

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Re: Rats In The Rigging
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2018, 08:10:58 AM »


Spoken like a man with

Im not the one on the left in the avatar hahaha

I guess storing all that instead of using it now means it will all have a longer years of use starting from new, when you do set it all up. Remember that even when batteries are finished, it just means you cant have electricity at night, but you can still run appliances during the day as long as the sun is shining. Aircon and washing machine in full sun and TV/stereo in cloudy sky. 

Just to avoid the rats eating wiring, i recommend running it all higher up out of reach than down low near the ground.

Have I made a gender identity faux pas? Sorry about that.

Agent Graves....is that a nom de plume borrowed from Mission Impossible? I hadn't considered that.

I thought you might be an FBI man or something. Maybe INS, or NSA or one of those other alphabet agencies. LOL.

Rats even live in trees in some places. In the Caribbean coconut palms are always full of rats. High voltage in the wires is probably the best deterrent.
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Online K-Dog

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Re: 💡 Electrical Resilience
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2018, 08:35:39 AM »
Not all wire is equal, some insulation is unstable and naturally fails with time.  Normally we think of plastics as stable but many of them actually change over time very slowly.  Our culture generally does not use electronics which is 70 years old but I encounter such things were I work and have learned things about resilience.  Foam materials are particularly bad.

Solder will migrate under the influence of electric current.  I have seen the results.  The migration is slow but some Engineers planned it into flat screen TVs so the LED back-light will fail in 3 years and you think your TV has failed.  In ours the screen was black but a flashlight showed the pixels were still working.  Once the connector which was engineered to fail was re-soldered everything was fine.

I repaired an inverter that was burned out on the Rexburg eclipse expedition.  It works now but I noted that it would suffer from soldier migration issues over time.  I also noted that the insulation on the wires is the same as what I know to fail in 50 years or so.  Many organic molecules fail over time and some of our plastics fail that way but common use does not reveal the property.
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline Eddie

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Re: 💡 Electrical Resilience
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2018, 09:50:59 AM »
Eddie, The units I want to build will not feed a family or an individual, they will produce your salad year round basically with no  inputs and provide you a free refrigerator and water storage/capture.  It is a resilient hedge not an autonomous stand alone system, at least not for the first prototypes.  I think I can build the simplest no frills most cost effective version.  I agree too texas would take deep expensive geothermal. 

I actually agree with you on crowdfunding, I guess I am just curious.  I'd be building this thing yesterday if I could justify it economincally, but after losing my crypto gamblings and milk prices in the shitter kind of hard to motivate actually doing any of this. 

However I am very happy to see that http://www.sun-orbit.de/ are a company who have basically realized similar concepts.  If you were looking for a system maybe you could consider being there first american customer?

I bookmarked it. How much does the Sterling engine cost? I didn't see any prices.
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Offline RE

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Re: 💡 Electrical Resilience
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2018, 10:51:06 AM »
Fucking hilarious.

What is hilarious is that you ended up being punished for your perceptions, not me.  :laugh:

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Offline RE

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Re: 💡 Electrical Resilience
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2018, 11:16:02 AM »
Solder will migrate under the influence of electric current.  I have seen the results.  The migration is slow but some Engineers planned it into flat screen TVs so the LED back-light will fail in 3 years and you think your TV has failed.  In ours the screen was black but a flashlight showed the pixels were still working.  Once the connector which was engineered to fail was re-soldered everything was fine.

This is why for a more resilient system, you go All-DC, and dispense with the inverters.

I'll be featuring this topic in an upcoming I Spy Doom video.

RE
SAVE AS MANY AS YOU CAN

Offline David B.

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Re: 💡 Electrical Resilience
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2018, 02:08:02 PM »
Not all wire is equal, some insulation is unstable and naturally fails with time.  Normally we think of plastics as stable but many of them actually change over time very slowly.  Our culture generally does not use electronics which is 70 years old but I encounter such things were I work and have learned things about resilience.  Foam materials are particularly bad.

Solder will migrate under the influence of electric current.  I have seen the results.  The migration is slow but some Engineers planned it into flat screen TVs so the LED back-light will fail in 3 years and you think your TV has failed.  In ours the screen was black but a flashlight showed the pixels were still working.  Once the connector which was engineered to fail was re-soldered everything was fine.

I repaired an inverter that was burned out on the Rexburg eclipse expedition.  It works now but I noted that it would suffer from soldier migration issues over time.  I also noted that the insulation on the wires is the same as what I know to fail in 50 years or so.  Many organic molecules fail over time and some of our plastics fail that way but common use does not reveal the property.
one of the fail point for wiring is the pvc coating. As it's exposed to uv it slightly degrades and surface deposits a salt. Rodents love salt and chew wires. On roof installs all dc runs are to be critter guarded (1/2 inch metal mesh plastic coated) to avoid the problem. Dc runs arc differently then ac and are more dangerous. Any dc run that penetrates a structure is in metal conduit or in tech cable now. All charge controllers in canada need arc and ground fault protection. It's the real problem with dc in houses the armoured cable costs arcing dangers.
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline David B.

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Re: 💡 Electrical Resilience
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2018, 02:47:46 PM »
Not all wire is equal, some insulation is unstable and naturally fails with time.  Normally we think of plastics as stable but many of them actually change over time very slowly.  Our culture generally does not use electronics which is 70 years old but I encounter such things were I work and have learned things about resilience.  Foam materials are particularly bad.

Solder will migrate under the influence of electric current.  I have seen the results.  The migration is slow but some Engineers planned it into flat screen TVs so the LED back-light will fail in 3 years and you think your TV has failed.  In ours the screen was black but a flashlight showed the pixels were still working.  Once the connector which was engineered to fail was re-soldered everything was fine.

I repaired an inverter that was burned out on the Rexburg eclipse expedition.  It works now but I noted that it would suffer from soldier migration issues over time.  I also noted that the insulation on the wires is the same as what I know to fail in 50 years or so.  Many organic molecules fail over time and some of our plastics fail that way but common use does not reveal the property.
would the solder creep be ac or dc specific? All led tvs I know are dc after the power converter? Just curious it's not a gotcha comment...
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline Agent Graves

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Re: 💡 Electrical Resilience
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2018, 05:13:44 PM »
Solder will migrate under the influence of electric current.  I have seen the results.  The migration is slow but some Engineers planned it into flat screen TVs so the LED back-light will fail in 3 years and you think your TV has failed.  In ours the screen was black but a flashlight showed the pixels were still working.  Once the connector which was engineered to fail was re-soldered everything was fine.

This is why for a more resilient system, you go All-DC, and dispense with the inverters.

I'll be featuring this topic in an upcoming I Spy Doom video.

RE

I dont get the CONNECTION
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Offline Agent Graves

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Re: Rats In The Rigging
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2018, 05:48:47 PM »


Spoken like a man with

Im not the one on the left in the avatar hahaha

I guess storing all that instead of using it now means it will all have a longer years of use starting from new, when you do set it all up. Remember that even when batteries are finished, it just means you cant have electricity at night, but you can still run appliances during the day as long as the sun is shining. Aircon and washing machine in full sun and TV/stereo in cloudy sky. 

Just to avoid the rats eating wiring, i recommend running it all higher up out of reach than down low near the ground.

Have I made a gender identity faux pas? Sorry about that.

Agent Graves....is that a nom de plume borrowed from Mission Impossible? I hadn't considered that.

I thought you might be an FBI man or something. Maybe INS, or NSA or one of those other alphabet agencies. LOL.

Rats even live in trees in some places. In the Caribbean coconut palms are always full of rats. High voltage in the wires is probably the best deterrent.

Dad driving son to school has a bad car crash and they are rushed to hospital. The ER Resident takes a look at the boy and says 'i cant treat him, hes my son'. Puzzled?








Girls can be agents as  my signature would suggest and think up their own usernames.
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Offline Eddie

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Re: 💡 Electrical Resilience
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2018, 07:21:15 PM »
Girls can be anything. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. Apologies. Your username is your business, Agent Graves. Your participation on the Diner Forum is very welcome.



What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline agelbert

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Re: 💡 Electrical Resilience Hello To Roamer and thanks to RE
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2018, 08:02:39 PM »
Okay Roamer, I'll check the link out. Thanks for the positive reply, RE.

As to Palloy and his claim that gravity systems for energy storage need to be "unfeasbly" huge, he, as usual, is stating a half truth.

For example, it is it is possible to operate ALL the lights in a house throughout the night with a gravity generator system. The problem with our modern thinking is that we want some system to DO IT ALL. That is totally unnecessary, but it helps the Palloys of this world claim that this or that "will never work".

Roamer, I'm glad you are here. since you are a mechanical engineer, I wish you would find the time to put Palloy in his proper place. The guy is an expert in sophistry and is fond of poo pooing absolutely anything that departs from the unsustainable energy status quo. He may believe he is "professorial", but he is actually routinely offensively pedantic. I got sick of arguing with him and just don't bother any more.

At any rate Roamer, thanks for your input. I hope all is well with you.

 

« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 08:25:42 PM by agelbert »
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Offline David B.

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Re: 💡 Electrical Resilience
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2018, 08:19:02 PM »
Since we've swayed into electrical resilience I'd like to propose a doomstead electrical resilience project that I think deserves higher attention than gravitational energy storage.

Imagine an off grid stand alone greenhouse that yields food, energy and purified water year round operating autonomously off of solar energy.   Imagine that this greenhouse through synergistic combination of existing technology can for $2000 provide a modest but adequate system to any earnest doomster.  That is the vision of the solar max survival greenhouse I wish to build. 

The guts of the machine are basic 4' long fresnel lens that focus sunlight on a strip of connected PV cells.  This energy harvesting strategy depending on degree of concentration yields 5-10x the output per square area of solar cell, this strategy though is avoided by utilities because the panels then require cooling.  This problem actually becomes a product in the synergistic approach, the thermal energy is captured and stored in insulated chambers to help regulate in cool periods or later down the road to run a simple low speed brayton or stirling engine cycle. Whats more the fresnel lens still admits adequate light for growing greens in the aquaponic system.

The initial prototype will focus on producing just enough electrical energy to operate its own systems without need for battery backup or inverter.  Excess electrical energy will be stored in various sinks such as a 12v dc refrigerator compressor dedicated to cooling an insulated walk in cool room which will function as year round refrigerator.  Another sink will be elevated water storage for the gravity feed aquaponic system. 

Different climates will require different strategies, a northern or southern version may require low grade geothermal tubes to assist in climate control, artic conditions would require a supplemental rocket stove and a thermal mechanical engine.

Though each region will require a particular configuration the strategy of capturing the full spectrum of the sun in a controlled environment of a greenhouse and accomplishing as much critical survival work is equally applicable everywhere. 


Ok end of sales pitch, I got a sketchup model I'm working on and a prototype bill of materials.  What I don't got is the spare couple grand or so I need for parts to build this first prototype.  What I want to find out is if the doom community would have enough interest to crowdfund the development?
No Money here but if you want to bounce electrical ideas off me on forum or pm feel free. I try to keep up with most of the solar tech coming out; partially for work part pure geekdom. I have wondered if I should not install a winter array in the greenhouse for extra production and heat gain. something you put away in the spring when the sun comes back. Solar concentrators using fresnels and mirror troughs were gaining popularity 6-8 years ago due to high silicon prices but interest faded when panel prices crashed.  There was talk a few years back of installing a foam backer on panels and a water circulating membrane in contact with the glass. That to me was promising because a failure of circulation would not cause an immediate cell meltdown just loss of production from overheating. You could not harvest high temp heat but water heating temp yes.  I'm a cold area with lots of wood so I think I will end up investigating jean paine piles and continuing my charcoaling endeavours for my own greenhouse experiments. I wish you well though.
David B.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 08:25:00 PM by David B. »
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline David B.

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Re: 💡 Electrical Resilience Hello To Roamer and thanks to RE
« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2018, 08:49:55 PM »
Okay Roamer, I'll check the link out. Thanks for the positive reply, RE.

As to Palloy and his claim that gravity systems for energy storage need to be "unfeasbly" huge, he, as usual, is stating a half truth.

For example, it is it is possible to operate ALL the lights in a house throughout the night with a gravity generator system. The problem with our modern thinking is that we want some system to DO IT ALL. That is totally unnecessary, but it helps the Palloys of this world claim that this or that "will never work".

Roamer, I'm glad you are here. since you are a mechanical engineer, I wish you would find the time to put Palloy in his proper place. The guy is an expert in sophistry and is fond of poo pooing absolutely anything that departs from the unsustainable energy status quo. He may believe he is "professorial", but he is actually routinely offensively pedantic. I got sick of arguing with him and just don't bother any more.

At any rate Roamer, thanks for your input. I hope all is well with you.
Was it you who posted the gravity light a while ago? I could not find it in search. If not here is a link to an article. Its a micro version but a real product and a great story
https://gravitylight.org/
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

 

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