AuthorTopic: Che Guevara, From The Historical Evidence.  (Read 3491 times)

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Re: Che Guevara, From The Historical Evidence.
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2018, 05:39:48 AM »
Very interesting diversity of opinion among Diners here in the Che thread.  Also good research and evidence presented by both sides.  Kudos to the Diner Historians!  :icon_sunny:

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Offline cernunnos5

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Re: Che Guevara, From The Historical Evidence.
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2018, 06:29:12 AM »
Well Canada would call what you had a revolution. You overthrew the government of the day and displaced up to 20 percent of your population as refugees... That's pretty revolutionary no?
Most definitely not.  If America had had a true Revolution, Canada would not exist.  They would just be additional States in the United States.

You all might have noticed I dont do the political discussions, choosing to only focus on prepping related subjects.

But I thought I would correct this. The US did try to invade Cana'duh twice. Both times ended with the Whitehouse in flames and then they went home. Not that I am any history guy or give a crap about being a canuck because of where my mom pooped me out.

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: Che Guevara, From The Historical Evidence.
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2018, 07:53:52 AM »
You all might have noticed I dont do the political discussions, choosing to only focus on prepping related subjects.

But I thought I would correct this. The US did try to invade Cana'duh twice. Both times ended with the Whitehouse in flames and then they went home. Not that I am any history guy or give a crap about being a canuck because of where my mom pooped me out.
Actually, you make a very good point... and the key here is you mention the White House.  Since Washington D.C. and the White House didn't exist during the "Revolutionary War", you must be talking about the War of 1812.  That actually did have more of the character of a Revolution, albeit not a successful one -- then again, neither was the counterrevolution.

Quote
Most definitely not.  If America had had a true Revolution, Canada would not exist.  They would just be additional States in the United States.
Interesting point of view. Geographically biased I think. The two colonies existed as separate entities even then. Or are you saying it would have only been a revolution if you overthrew the british empire?
The key difference between a revolution and an insurrection is whether you are trying to take over the existing power structure, or set up your own.  After the French and Indian War, the colonies were largely neglected, leaving them to largely govern themselves.  The problems came when the King tried to reassert his authority over the colonies.

It's not that the entire British empire would have needed to have been overthrown for the War of 1776 to be a proper Revolution, but they would have had to have been looking to keep the same imperial structure, just taking it over for themselves.  As such, Canada would be a grave threat to such ambitions, and victory would not have been considered complete until it was taken over.  But they did not have imperial aspirations at that point, they were content to be just be left alone.
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Offline Eddie

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Re: Che Guevara, From The Historical Evidence.
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2018, 09:10:39 AM »
If Cuba were really a successful revolution that replaced a bad government (And I certainly do think the pre-Castro Batista government was completely corrupt alright) with a good government that provided a decent life, then you would NOT have had wave upon wave of refugees leaving ever since the beginning, and which is only coming to an end now, with the borders being closed for real.

Only weeks ago were Cubans finally denied instant green card status here. Did you know that?

Since 1959 it's been instant asylum, pretty much no questions asked. For years now they've been coming across the Mexican border into Texas by the thousands.

It's interesting, the pattern of immigration. First it was the rich leaving. Then the small business people. Then the cab drivers and barbers. Then the working class.  Finally it was mostly the young, who had no future.

What I've seen completely lacking is a migration into Cuba by disenfranchised Europeans and Americans looking for a better life. Or even people from Central America.

Not even the Venceremos Brigade, which is (or was) made up of silly US social justice warriors who thought they were commie wannabes.

Almost nobody wants to move to Cuba. It's a tough life in Cuba.

The one real gain I see is healthcare. And that has resulted in a bumper crop of old people. Yes, Cuba has serious unfunded liabilities related to elder care.

Those poverty stricken people communism was supposed to save? There are some still.

Government is government. There are always powerful people who run things and get special treatment and more and better food, housing, etc. etc. Cuba is no exception.

I have no wish to trade my current repressive government for an even more repressive government so that I personally can live a lower standard of living. Tell me again why that's a good thing?

Oh yeah, cuz billions are starving.



« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 09:30:32 AM by Eddie »
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Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: Che Guevara, From The Historical Evidence.
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2018, 09:16:29 AM »
You all might have noticed I dont do the political discussions, choosing to only focus on prepping related subjects.

But I thought I would correct this. The US did try to invade Cana'duh twice. Both times ended with the Whitehouse in flames and then they went home. Not that I am any history guy or give a crap about being a canuck because of where my mom pooped me out.
Actually, you make a very good point... and the key here is you mention the White House.  Since Washington D.C. and the White House didn't exist during the "Revolutionary War", you must be talking about the War of 1812.  That actually did have more of the character of a Revolution, albeit not a successful one -- then again, neither was the counterrevolution.

Quote
Most definitely not.  If America had had a true Revolution, Canada would not exist.  They would just be additional States in the United States.
Interesting point of view. Geographically biased I think. The two colonies existed as separate entities even then. Or are you saying it would have only been a revolution if you overthrew the british empire?
The key difference between a revolution and an insurrection is whether you are trying to take over the existing power structure, or set up your own.  After the French and Indian War, the colonies were largely neglected, leaving them to largely govern themselves.  The problems came when the King tried to reassert his authority over the colonies.

It's not that the entire British empire would have needed to have been overthrown for the War of 1776 to be a proper Revolution, but they would have had to have been looking to keep the same imperial structure, just taking it over for themselves.  As such, Canada would be a grave threat to such ambitions, and victory would not have been considered complete until it was taken over.  But they did not have imperial aspirations at that point, they were content to be just be left alone.
in·sur·rec·tion
ˌinsəˈrekSH(ə)n/Submit
noun
a violent uprising against an authority or government.

rev·o·lu·tion
ˌrevəˈlo͞oSH(ə)n/Submit
noun
1.
a forcible overthrow of a government or social order in favor of a new system.
I understand what you are getting at but if you talk to any non american I have ever met they will call it a revolution and refer to it as the revolutionary war. It upset the apple cart and created something new therefor revolution. That it evolved into a reestablishment of existing power structures under different management does not negate the rebelliousness of it.
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Offline K-Dog

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Re: Che Guevara, From The Historical Evidence.
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2018, 09:54:55 AM »
What Agent Graves was claiming is that a communist 'revolution' never stops but keeps on murdering forever while a rich mans 'revolution' is guaranteed to put poor people in a daylight rambler and give everybody a two car garage and 30K in the bank once the dust settles.  In a rising tide lifting all boats sort of way. 

Attacking the redefinition of 'revolution' was a good way to address that nonsense. 
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Offline Eddie

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Re: Che Guevara, From The Historical Evidence.
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2018, 10:21:56 AM »
I promise to educate myself better so that I can discuss this topic with a better knowledge base.

I've always been interested in Cuba, and I've read a lot of books that on touched Cuba in some tangential way, or were novels set in Cuba since the revolution and since the USSR folded and left Cuba twisting in the wind. But I have not read nearly the entire story.

I'm not anti-Cuba. I was very happy to see sanctions lifted and I'm sorry to see Trump reversing what was obviously such a good thing. I'd love to see Cuba, and see how they do such a good job of feeding people with very little to do it with. I have always felt that US policy towards Cuba was stupid and ineffective and motivated by the politics of fear, which is what drives American politics in general.

It still looks like a dreary place to live. I still think communism, as it exists in the real world, sucks. I'm happy however, for people who want communism to have it.

My expectation is that in the long run, it won't much matter. I expect to see a much more socialist government here, once the Boomers die off. If we get that far before BAU locks up, that is.

Governments of all stripes are going to get more repressive. You have to find a life somewhere between the cracks if you can.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline K-Dog

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Re: Che Guevara, From The Historical Evidence.
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2018, 10:59:59 AM »
That is why only communist revolutions are still called revolutions for the duration of the regime, unlike eg french or american revolutions where only the process of overthrowing the former form of govt is called the revolution. Notice they do not still call it a revolution now.
America has never had a revolution, despite it being so misnamed.  It has had 2 insurrections, 1 successful, 1 not.  In neither case were they trying to take over the existing government.  The colonists just wanted to be left alone to govern themselves, and so did the Southerners.

Now, the French had a real Revolution.  Remember Robespierre?  The guillotine?  Plenty of blood was spilled, and kept being spilled, until long after a strongman (Napoleon) has taken over the country.
Well Canada would call what you had a revolution. You overthrew the government of the day and displaced up to 20 percent of your population as refugees... That's pretty revolutionary no?

K-Dog U.E. on my fathers side.  (United Empire Loyalist)

But my mothers side totally cancels it out.  Members in the Green Mountain Boys and the Revolutionary Navy.  An ancestor was given a life pension by congress in about 1800 for his revolutionary service when he was old.  He must have been a bad ass to get that!  On my fathers side the King awarded 1000 Canadian acres to an ancestor for anti-revolutionary service.  Not a bad displacement for him. 
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 09:07:42 PM by K-Dog »
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: Che Guevara, From The Historical Evidence.
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2018, 11:27:20 AM »
That is why only communist revolutions are still called revolutions for the duration of the regime, unlike eg french or american revolutions where only the process of overthrowing the former form of govt is called the revolution. Notice they do not still call it a revolution now.
America has never had a revolution, despite it being so misnamed.  It has had 2 insurrections, 1 successful, 1 not.  In neither case were they trying to take over the existing government.  The colonists just wanted to be left alone to govern themselves, and so did the Southerners.

Now, the French had a real Revolution.  Remember Robespierre?  The guillotine?  Plenty of blood was spilled, and kept being spilled, until long after a strongman (Napoleon) has taken over the country.
Well Canada would call what you had a revolution. You overthrew the government of the day and displaced up to 20 percent of your population as refugees... That's pretty revolutionary no?

K-Dog U.E. on my fathers side.  (United Empire Loyalist)

But my mothers side totally cancels it out.  Members in the Green Mountain boys and the Revolutionary Navy.  An ancestor was given a life pension by congress in about 1800 for his revolutionary service when he was old.  He must have been a bad ass to get that!  On my fathers side the King awarded 1000 Canadian acres to an ancestor for anti-revolutionary service.  Not a bad displacement for him.
forgive me kind sire... I'm a mutt myself. At the time my father's side was chasing sheep in Scotland and my mother's side was hoping "les anglais" would just finish each other off and leave them alone. The use of UE is almost extinct. You still come across it down kingston way and sometimes in the maritimes  but very old and more quirky then serious. We live in a history oblivious time now. found this link: http://www.uelac.org/
Cheers,  David
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 11:47:25 AM by David B. »
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline K-Dog

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Re: Che Guevara, From The Historical Evidence.
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2018, 11:59:49 AM »
That is why only communist revolutions are still called revolutions for the duration of the regime, unlike eg french or american revolutions where only the process of overthrowing the former form of govt is called the revolution. Notice they do not still call it a revolution now.
America has never had a revolution, despite it being so misnamed.  It has had 2 insurrections, 1 successful, 1 not.  In neither case were they trying to take over the existing government.  The colonists just wanted to be left alone to govern themselves, and so did the Southerners.

Now, the French had a real Revolution.  Remember Robespierre?  The guillotine?  Plenty of blood was spilled, and kept being spilled, until long after a strongman (Napoleon) has taken over the country.
Well Canada would call what you had a revolution. You overthrew the government of the day and displaced up to 20 percent of your population as refugees... That's pretty revolutionary no?

K-Dog U.E. on my fathers side.  (United Empire Loyalist)

But my mothers side totally cancels it out.  Members in the Green Mountain boys and the Revolutionary Navy.  An ancestor was given a life pension by congress in about 1800 for his revolutionary service when he was old.  He must have been a bad ass to get that!  On my fathers side the King awarded 1000 Canadian acres to an ancestor for anti-revolutionary service.  Not a bad displacement for him.
forgive me kind sire... I'm a mutt myself. At the time my father's side was chasing sheep in Scotland and my mother's side was hoping "les anglais" would just finish each other off and leave them alone. The use of UE is almost extinct. You still come across it down kingston way and sometimes in the maritimes  but very old and more quirky then serious. We live in a history oblivious time now.
Cheers,  David

I know I could qualify and prove it but I had to look it up to get the initials right.  We live in a history oblivious time and that's not good.  But genealogy is not an interest of mine.  These vain facts were known by my two grandmothers.  People who really get into genealogy concern themselves with the good history and ignore the bad IMHO and that is not good.  I know that sometimes when I get angry I feel the primeval whispers of eons of murderous ancestors calling me to mayhem.  Then I tell myself, down boy down!

We are all mutts.  Distant Canadian relatives who I have never met sold off the last bit of the 1000 acre legacy in my childhood.  A cousin of my father I think had it.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 12:03:11 PM by K-Dog »
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: Che Guevara, From The Historical Evidence.
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2018, 12:12:46 PM »
That is why only communist revolutions are still called revolutions for the duration of the regime, unlike eg french or american revolutions where only the process of overthrowing the former form of govt is called the revolution. Notice they do not still call it a revolution now.
America has never had a revolution, despite it being so misnamed.  It has had 2 insurrections, 1 successful, 1 not.  In neither case were they trying to take over the existing government.  The colonists just wanted to be left alone to govern themselves, and so did the Southerners.

Now, the French had a real Revolution.  Remember Robespierre?  The guillotine?  Plenty of blood was spilled, and kept being spilled, until long after a strongman (Napoleon) has taken over the country.
Well Canada would call what you had a revolution. You overthrew the government of the day and displaced up to 20 percent of your population as refugees... That's pretty revolutionary no?

K-Dog U.E. on my fathers side.  (United Empire Loyalist)

But my mothers side totally cancels it out.  Members in the Green Mountain Boys and the Revolutionary Navy.  An ancestor was given a life pension by congress in about 1800 for his revolutionary service when he was old.  He must have been a bad ass to get that!  On my fathers side the King awarded 1000 Canadian acres to an ancestor for anti-revolutionary service.  Not a bad displacement for him.
forgive me kind sire... I'm a mutt myself. At the time my father's side was chasing sheep in Scotland and my mother's side was hoping "les anglais" would just finish each other off and leave them alone. The use of UE is almost extinct. You still come across it down kingston way and sometimes in the maritimes  but very old and more quirky then serious. We live in a history oblivious time now.
Cheers,  David

I know I could qualify and prove it but I had to look it up to get the initials right.  We live in a history oblivious time and that's not good.  But genealogy is not an interest of mine.  These vain facts were known by my two grandmothers.  People who really get into genealogy concern themselves with the good history and ignore the bad IMHO and that is not good.  I know that sometimes when I get angry I feel the primeval whispers of eons of murderous ancestors calling me to mayhem.  Then I tell myself, down boy down!

We are all mutts.  Distant Canadian relatives who I have never met sold off the last bit of the 1000 acre legacy in my childhood.  A cousin of my father I think had it.
Yup I like my history warts and all!
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 09:06:59 PM by K-Dog »
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Online RE

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Re: Che Guevara, From The Historical Evidence.
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2018, 01:13:05 PM »
I have no wish to trade my current repressive government for an even more repressive government so that I personally can live a lower standard of living. Tell me again why that's a good thing?

Oh come on.  Even you acknowledge to develop any kind of society that is remotely "sustainable" we need to Power Down, use less fossil fuels and live closer to the land with more of the population involved in food production.  The Cuban Revolution forced all those things to happen, and today Cuba is far better prepared for SHTF Day than the FSoA.  Voluntarily giving up your vacations to the VI and lowering your standard of living is a way to provide a better chance for your kids to have any kind of future at all.

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Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: Che Guevara, From The Historical Evidence.
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2018, 02:04:13 PM »
in·sur·rec·tion
ˌinsəˈrekSH(ə)n/Submit
noun
a violent uprising against an authority or government.

rev·o·lu·tion
ˌrevəˈlo͞oSH(ə)n/Submit
noun
1.
a forcible overthrow of a government or social order in favor of a new system.
Thank you!!  My point is right there in the definitions you provided....  revolution is about OVERTHROWing a government.  Getting rid of it completely.  It was never the goal of the American colonists to get rid of Britain's government, nor was it the Confederacy's goal to get rid of the United States government.  In both cases of course they were violent uprisings.

I do not particularly care what misconceptions people in other countries have.  The real problem is when people try to conduct a revolution by following the example of the War of American Independence, when they don't have the experience with self-governance that the colonists had been afforded.

And this is not just an academic point of history.  Anyone who thinks there will be a revolution in the near future in the United States is bat-shit crazy.  But, an insurrection is almost certainly coming.  And if they follow the rules for an insurrection, and not a revolution, it might even be successful.
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Offline Palloy2

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Re: Che Guevara, From The Historical Evidence.
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2018, 03:21:04 PM »
Quote
And if they follow the rules for an insurrection, and not a revolution, it might even be successful.

OK then, what are the rules for an insurrection?  If everyone gets a trial and an appeal, and is still found guilty and executed, is the head of the appellate court a war criminal?
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Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: Che Guevara, From The Historical Evidence.
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2018, 04:00:02 PM »
Quote
And if they follow the rules for an insurrection, and not a revolution, it might even be successful.

OK then, what are the rules for an insurrection?  If everyone gets a trial and an appeal, and is still found guilty and executed, is the head of the appellate court a war criminal?
Wrong kind of rules... think more along the lines of "rules of engagement".

First and foremost rule of running a successful insurrection, make sure you have supplies that can not be cut off by the government you are fighting.  So, for example, don't rely on foreign oil to grow your crops to feed your troops if the oil can be embargoed.
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

 

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