AuthorTopic: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)  (Read 2194 times)

Online azozeo

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #120 on: November 03, 2018, 11:35:21 AM »
  Experiments still go on.



Singularity is a pipe dream just like a fusion reactor or space travel.
AJ

These blinky lights aren't street lights over temple mount in Jerusalem
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/h1CWsAY01Jg&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/h1CWsAY01Jg&fs=1</a>


You may want to rethink the above statement AJ  :icon_sunny:
I know exactly what you mean. Let me tell you why youíre here. Youíre here because you know something. What you know you canít explain, but you feel it. Youíve felt it your entire life, that thereís something wrong with the world.
You donít know what it is but its there, like a splinter in your mind

Offline K-Dog

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #121 on: November 03, 2018, 12:49:05 PM »
To be fair Mother Nature has only been trying for about 600 million years.  Multi-cellular life being a prerequisite.  A couple of billion years was needed to build the infrastructure for intelligence before experiments could even begin.  Experiments still go on.

What are your thoughts on robotics which involve embodied intelligence, i.e. the robots are programmed with relatively simple codes to perform movements similar to humans and by moving around in the world they actually gain a type of intelligence that cannot come any other way? I'm fascinated by that idea. Also the idea that, if there is actually something to such an embodied intelligence, robots which can communicate any insights from learned patterns of behavior almost instantaneously to millions of other robots, so on and so forth, would essentially evolve over the course of days, hours and minutes.

This idea also intrigued me because it seems the most intelligent animals are the ones which can manipulate their surrounding environments and solve complex problems this way. Dolphins may be intelligent, but the type of intelligence is likely very different from that of an octopus, chimpanzee or a human. I'm not sure if there is anything to that, but it seems somewhat plausible to my lay mind.

The analogy to life's evolution on earth is far from perfect.  Evolution is slow because generations are involved and networked computers can replace much of that overhead but evolution does relentlessly cull failed experiments in a way AI can't.  Intelligence is the absence of failure but much failure is needed to produce intelligence in the first place.  Experience and failure of a kind a network can't provide.  A network may be huge and fast but each node perceives things the same way with the same bias.  An oppression of homogeneity would not provide the flexibility that global AI would need to test novel situations and that is what intelligence is really all about.  Intelligence evolved at the species level and involved a lot of death.  It is not acceptable for AI to evolve by failure if people die in failed AI code experiments, but human intelligence evolved in exactly that way.  Mistakes were tested and not simply thrown away.  Mistakes were killed off forcing intelligence to evolve along a very narrow path.  It takes a lot of history and a lot of pain to work out that narrow path.  That which worked was saved and that what did not work so well was killed off.  AI development can't duplicate the pain needed to produce real intelligence by actually interacting with the environment and a simulation can't provide the novelty which the authenticity of consequences that global AI would need to bypass such interaction.

Intelligence on earth is domain specific.  Each creature has different strategies skills and abilities to keep their meat alive.  Only humans have had anything like global intelligence of the kind AI nerds expect to be just around the corner.  To get that far they omit intermediate steps.  Steps which took billions of years by billions and billions of failed experiments to create something which only works in specific environments can be duplicated, yes, but global AI must be able to able to deal with novelty.  A universe of real world experience is needed to give the background to evaluate all the what-ifs of a new situation.  Neural networks can provide a blank slate large enough to do the calculations but hardware can't program itself.  Interaction with the environment must provide the needed experience to shape intelligence in any domain in a correct direction be it the skill to swallow another fish or the skill to pick a banana from a tree, or the skill to put words together in different ways.  AI can't be woven from whole cloth but that is what people expect.

Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline Ashvin

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #122 on: November 03, 2018, 08:36:04 PM »
To be fair Mother Nature has only been trying for about 600 million years.  Multi-cellular life being a prerequisite.  A couple of billion years was needed to build the infrastructure for intelligence before experiments could even begin.  Experiments still go on.

What are your thoughts on robotics which involve embodied intelligence, i.e. the robots are programmed with relatively simple codes to perform movements similar to humans and by moving around in the world they actually gain a type of intelligence that cannot come any other way? I'm fascinated by that idea. Also the idea that, if there is actually something to such an embodied intelligence, robots which can communicate any insights from learned patterns of behavior almost instantaneously to millions of other robots, so on and so forth, would essentially evolve over the course of days, hours and minutes.

This idea also intrigued me because it seems the most intelligent animals are the ones which can manipulate their surrounding environments and solve complex problems this way. Dolphins may be intelligent, but the type of intelligence is likely very different from that of an octopus, chimpanzee or a human. I'm not sure if there is anything to that, but it seems somewhat plausible to my lay mind.

The analogy to life's evolution on earth is far from perfect.  Evolution is slow because generations are involved and networked computers can replace much of that overhead but evolution does relentlessly cull failed experiments in a way AI can't.  Intelligence is the absence of failure but much failure is needed to produce intelligence in the first place.  Experience and failure of a kind a network can't provide.  A network may be huge and fast but each node perceives things the same way with the same bias.  An oppression of homogeneity would not provide the flexibility that global AI would need to test novel situations and that is what intelligence is really all about.  Intelligence evolved at the species level and involved a lot of death.  It is not acceptable for AI to evolve by failure if people die in failed AI code experiments, but human intelligence evolved in exactly that way.  Mistakes were tested and not simply thrown away.  Mistakes were killed off forcing intelligence to evolve along a very narrow path.  It takes a lot of history and a lot of pain to work out that narrow path.  That which worked was saved and that what did not work so well was killed off.  AI development can't duplicate the pain needed to produce real intelligence by actually interacting with the environment and a simulation can't provide the novelty which the authenticity of consequences that global AI would need to bypass such interaction.

Intelligence on earth is domain specific.  Each creature has different strategies skills and abilities to keep their meat alive.  Only humans have had anything like global intelligence of the kind AI nerds expect to be just around the corner.  To get that far they omit intermediate steps.  Steps which took billions of years by billions and billions of failed experiments to create something which only works in specific environments can be duplicated, yes, but global AI must be able to able to deal with novelty.  A universe of real world experience is needed to give the background to evaluate all the what-ifs of a new situation.  Neural networks can provide a blank slate large enough to do the calculations but hardware can't program itself.  Interaction with the environment must provide the needed experience to shape intelligence in any domain in a correct direction be it the skill to swallow another fish or the skill to pick a banana from a tree, or the skill to put words together in different ways.  AI can't be woven from whole cloth but that is what people expect.

Part of the issue could be how we are defining intelligence, or what kind of intelligence we are thinking of. There is an abstracted intelligence which seems to be pretty much out of reach for AI. But from a Darwinian perspective, we could think of the type of intelligence that is just intelligent enough to promote survival. This could be an embodied intelligence which primarily relies on imitation. Certainly some of the smartest animals we know of, including humans, have the capacity to learn simply through observing and imitating another creature who has solved a problem.

So would you say that programming embodied AI to imitate is much harder than it sounds? I don't know a thing about programming so I would definitely defer to you on that.

Offline K-Dog

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #123 on: November 04, 2018, 05:37:31 AM »

So would you say that programming embodied AI to imitate is much harder than it sounds? I don't know a thing about programming so I would definitely defer to you on that.

Yes, Lex makes the point that two computers can be programmed to play a game against each other and develop intelligence and skill, but only games can be programmed in this way.  It is because the reality of a game can be simulated 100% but nothing else can.  Simulating anything else only produces an approximation to reality and that is not good enough to develop intelligence which can deal with novelty but that is exactly what intelligence must do.

If we stop and think about what intelligence is, an ability to understand and deal with reality, it becomes obvious that only interacting with reality can produce intelligence.  This is not the same thing as saying AI is impossible at all, but it shows the notion of waking up tomorrow and finding out machines are in control is total crazy.  There can be no singularity, the onion of AI has so many layers that slow progress will be continue to be the nature of the beast as it has been for fifty years.

The truth about intelligence is that there is nothing artificial about it.  Intelligence is real be it produced by a machine or in rare cases by a human.  Regardless it will never and can never be artificial.  Interaction with reality programs intelligence, there is no other way for it to be created and programming to imitate is hard.
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline Eddie

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #124 on: November 04, 2018, 05:44:51 AM »
This exchange would make a fine blog article, too. I'm learning a lot. Sure glad to have K-Dog for a no-bullshit source. I can occasionally almost understand what he's trying to communicate to my digitally ignorant ass.

No wonder Americans hold engineers in high regard. We have some damn good ones.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Online RE

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #125 on: November 04, 2018, 07:19:05 AM »
This exchange would make a fine blog article, too. I'm learning a lot. Sure glad to have K-Dog for a no-bullshit source. I can occasionally almost understand what he's trying to communicate to my digitally ignorant ass.

No wonder Americans hold engineers in high regard. We have some damn good ones.

You should compile it for a blog article.  You need to learn how to do this stuff.  I will not be here forever.

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Offline Eddie

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #126 on: November 04, 2018, 07:25:59 AM »
Okay. But right now I have to log into pediatric life support and kill a few more babies. Two more lives saved and I'm done, but I'm into the serious heart problems now and every simulation is a code blue for a kid with a pre-existing heart condition.

It's the usual question. Atropine or Epinephrine?

At least now the machines are smart enough to figure out if you need to shock. Defibrillators (the idiot-proof kind) are now required in dental offices. I really need to buy one before somebody arrests and I get in serious trouble.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 07:27:35 AM by Eddie »
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Online RE

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #127 on: November 04, 2018, 07:35:45 AM »
Okay. But right now I have to log into pediatric life support and kill a few more babies. Two more lives saved and I'm done, but I'm into the serious heart problems now and every simulation is a code blue for a kid with a pre-existing heart condition.

It's the usual question. Atropine or Epinephrine?

At least now the machines are smart enough to figure out if you need to shock. Defibrillators (the idiot-proof kind) are now required in dental offices. I really need to buy one before somebody arrests and I get in serious trouble.

How much do they cost?  Not as much as a digital X-Ray machine I think.

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Offline Eddie

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #128 on: November 04, 2018, 07:38:27 AM »
Maybe $1000 now. Not too bad. The most likely life for it to save, based on real probabilities, is my own. So maybe not the worst investment.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Eddie

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #129 on: November 04, 2018, 08:35:21 AM »
Dammit, lost another one.  I want a cigarette, and I don't even smoke. Losing virtual infants is hard for everyone.

What am I going to tell the virtual parents?  I jacked the algorithm for CPR?

It's God's will.

What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #130 on: November 04, 2018, 08:45:33 AM »
My original CPR instructor worked in ambulances in east Vancouver so was used to junkies... his advice was to remember you are starting with a corpse and have at best a 50 50 chance of changing that... I think that was how he stayed sane.
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline Eddie

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #131 on: November 04, 2018, 08:58:02 AM »
Here's the deal. I once worked (so long ago it seems like another life) in a small county hospital on the night shift. I often slept, since I was also trying to finish my last year of college.

I've been on many, many code blues, although most of them were adults. My job was to take EKG's and draw blood gasses, often from the femoral arteries of dying drunks in car wrecks or end-stage heart patients.

These computer simulations are much harder than real life. But if you can get them right, you're well on your way to being able to save some lives. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you look at it) my day job reinforces none of this stuff, and so I get to re-learn it every two years until I retire. Probably three more times at least, if I don't participate in my own code blue first.

I was once going to take EMT training myself, but the teacher, a young guy everyone liked, died in a bad ambulance wreck several months before I graduated. My acceptance to dental school made the training moot anyway. But I will never forget that guy, who was married with a baby, and trying to get into medical school.

Karma is hard to understand.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Online RE

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #132 on: November 04, 2018, 09:00:00 AM »
Dammit, lost another one.  I want a cigarette, and I don't even smoke. Losing virtual infants is hard for everyone.

What am I going to tell the virtual parents?  I jacked the algorithm for CPR?

It's God's will.

Infants are the easiest to lose.  They know nothing.  You lose me when I sit down in your Dental Chair, I know something.  That would be harder I think.

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Offline Eddie

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #133 on: November 04, 2018, 09:07:28 AM »
Dammit, lost another one.  I want a cigarette, and I don't even smoke. Losing virtual infants is hard for everyone.

What am I going to tell the virtual parents?  I jacked the algorithm for CPR?

It's God's will.

Infants are the easiest to lose.  They know nothing.  You lose me when I sit down in your Dental Chair, I know something.  That would be harder I think.

RE

God's will. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Eddie

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #134 on: November 04, 2018, 10:09:59 AM »
4th try, I successfully resuscitated this infant and the damn computer STILL failed my ass. I need a fuckin' lifeline call. I'm going to get high and then treat the patient again.

Fuckin' useless eaters.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

 

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