AuthorTopic: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)  (Read 1890 times)

Offline Ashvin

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The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« on: August 14, 2018, 02:55:07 PM »
Quote from: Surly
Quillette in Lehmann's hands purportedly "makes arguments or presents data not in keeping with the contemporary intellectual consensus." The NYT's latest darling Bari Weiss, "regards Lehmann as one of the leaders of the Intellectual Dark Web, a group of intellectuals who are "determined to resist parroting what’s politically convenient."

Since you brought it up, I would say that the above is a decent snapshot of the IDW, but a snapshot is all it is. Jordan Peterson more aptly describes it as a loose grouping of public intellectuals who have been early adopters of internet technology allowing long-form talks and discussions (I would say 60   min. makes it "long-form"). The people who currently are grouped into the IDW run the gamut of political leanings, with Ben Shapiro probably being the most conservative. So people who want to paint it as some manifestation of the "drooling right" don't have a factual leg to stand on.

The one thing they all seem to have in common, though, is an extremely high respect for academic freedom and free thought/speech in general. Whether they lean left or right, they all pay enough attention to see that certain ideological factions of our society, on BOTH sides, are trying to drown out such freedoms and homogenize intellectual discourse. The casualties of the identity politics ideologues are stacking up more and more. If you teach, do research or publish articles/books/videos, you are especially susceptible to being the next victim. You will be called a bigot, homophobe, Islamophobe, racist, sexist, etc. for merely stating FACTS about gender, race or religion.

Fortunately, the various constituents of the IDW have garnered enough support that there is a significant counter-balance to these worrying trends. The loudest and most shrill voices are no longer the only ones being heard. Now if you are new to the IDW and want to read the most biased, politically-motivated and intellectually lazy analysis of it, I would recommend you visit none other than Vox - https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2018/5/10/17338290/intellectual-dark-web-rogan-peterson-harris-times-weiss.

The reason I even post that link is because I have enough faith in the intellect and discernment of readers here to think that they can easily see through the thin and superficial ideological veneer of the above hit piece. If, instead, you want real exposure to the IDW, so you can decide the intellectual integrity of its "members" and the merits of their arguments for yourself, you have to do the HARD WORK of reading what they write or listening to what they say. It takes time and effort. And that is something the ideologues of the Vox ilk do not want anyone to do, because it immediately destroys their brand of selling cheap and easy aphorisms to its readers. They want their captive audience to remain addicted to a steady diet of convenient ideologically-driven "anaylsis".

Here's a place to start, but most certainly not the place to end if you want to get real exposure to the IDW and their sensible discourse:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/PagNM_oxssE" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/PagNM_oxssE</a>

Offline Ashvin

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2018, 03:02:27 PM »
Also, a message to anyone who wants to weigh in on this topic, especially people who are NOT admins:

PLEASE keep your comments on topic and refrain from language that may be perceived as attacking a commenter instead of the substance of their comment. I have also been guilty of this in the recent past, and I would rather not give the admins any excuse to shut it all down.

Online Eddie

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2018, 03:46:45 PM »
Also, a message to anyone who wants to weigh in on this topic, especially people who are NOT admins:

PLEASE keep your comments on topic and refrain from language that may be perceived as attacking a commenter instead of the substance of their comment. I have also been guilty of this in the recent past, and I would rather not give the admins any excuse to shut it all down.


Thanks and thanks.

I will find time to watch this video. I thought the other JP video was very good, and I think the hoopla about  the term IDW is basically irrelevant. I'm always glad to see intelligent discussion and sincere dialog about real issues rather than some emotional appeal to the lowest common denominators of our culture, which is what we've been seeing for the most part lately in our political process.

---------------------

Nobody ever got run off this site without a long history of making deliberately ad hom remarks and/or trying to post misleading or hateful comments, however.

I think  there have been a grand total of two people ever banned from the Diner for good, to my knowledge.  That's not many for a forum that's been up for as long as the Diner.

In the first case, there is a consensus among the admins that it was a good decision. This one happened many months ago, now.

Another chronic malcontent got their ticket punched yesterday, and it was done by a complete consensus between four mods who discussed the possibility for months and months, while the commenter in question repeatedly made remarks that pushed the limits over and over and ignored many warnings to tone it down.

Nobody has to walk on eggshells to post here.. It isn't like that, and it hasn't been like that, and it shouldn't be characterized as such. Some people will never be happy about the way this or any other blog is moderated. But it's necessary, and policies here are much more open and fair than most. Trolls have taken advantage of this too many times.

Carry on, and use a little consideration, and nobody gets hurt. The hostages will be released when the check clears the bank in the Caymans.

What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Ashvin

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2018, 06:43:56 PM »


I will find time to watch this video. I thought the other JP video was very good, and I think the hoopla about  the term IDW is basically irrelevant. I'm always glad to see intelligent discussion and sincere dialog about real issues rather than some emotional appeal to the lowest common denominators of our culture, which is what we've been seeing for the most part lately in our political process.

I think the hope is that the IDW term will become irrelevant as the way in which people are conducting discourse within the IDW spreads out to the rest of the culture. It's a long shot, but there's still a shot. Until it happens, I guess some term needs to be used to distinguish the order of magnitudes difference in the quality of dialogues happening between certain public intellectuals and, well, just about every one else.

And in case it wasn't already clear, the IDW does not at all refer to a group of people who share ideological frameworks or political leanings. Some of them debate one another, for ex. Sam Harris and Jordan Peterson. It's a fascinating ensemble of characters, actually.

I'd love to hear more of your thoughts when you finish the video, Eddie.


Online K-Dog

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2018, 09:46:24 PM »
Just calling yourself the Intellectual Dark Web does not an entity make.  A dark web is dark, members only, that is why it is a dark web.  Nobody know the addresses on the web unless they are part of an inner circle.  Having a dark web facilitate discussion is an oxymoron. 

Meet Darkwing Duck



Sure looks like Donald to me. 

I find the expropriation of 'dark web' to try and pin on a nebulous political orientation to be a case of an emperor wearing no clothes in a linguistic sense.  Smoke and fury signifying nothing.  Jordan Peterson is a psychologist and really does not have any political agenda.  It just so happens that his psychological research does not sanction the lifestyle choices some people make and their agenda brought him the notoriety he has, not his own actions. 

If a person tries to identify Peterson as a politician they are full of baloney.  He is a psychologist most concerned with individuals getting their shit together.  That he would be thrown into the dark web blunderbuss shows the whole notion is nothing but a whole lot of commotion.

If a dark web facilitates discussion members typing away on it will consist of not only the worlds tallest midgets but also the worlds smartest idiots.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 09:50:38 PM by K-Dog »
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline Surly1

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2018, 03:34:53 AM »
Nobody ever got run off this site without a long history of making deliberately ad hom remarks and/or trying to post misleading or hateful comments, however.

I think  there have been a grand total of two people ever banned from the Diner for good, to my knowledge.  That's not many for a forum that's been up for as long as the Diner.

In the first case, there is a consensus among the admins that it was a good decision. This one happened many months ago, now.

Another chronic malcontent got their ticket punched yesterday, and it was done by a complete consensus between four mods who discussed the possibility for months and months, while the commenter in question repeatedly made remarks that pushed the limits over and over and ignored many warnings to tone it down.

Nobody has to walk on eggshells to post here.. It isn't like that, and it hasn't been like that, and it shouldn't be characterized as such. Some people will never be happy about the way this or any other blog is moderated. But it's necessary, and policies here are much more open and fair than most. Trolls have taken advantage of this too many times.

Carry on, and use a little consideration, and nobody gets hurt. The hostages will be released when the check clears the bank in the Caymans.

In meatspace, I have been summoned to Rome for a management retreat and have put in a bare minimum of Forum time. So I was delighted to see this here in the wee small hours of Wednesday morning.

Eddie has it exactly right. NONE of the admins wants to ban anyone. Ever. There is a wide range of tolerance for the opinions of others, even those with which we personally vigorously disagree. Admins here tolerate a higher amount of personal abuse here, than, say on other blogs. But what you push hard enough will eventually fall over. Try that ad hom stuff with Jin Quinn and see how long you last.

Carry on!
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline Ashvin

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2018, 06:18:12 AM »
I find the expropriation of 'dark web' to try and pin on a nebulous political orientation to be a case of an emperor wearing no clothes in a linguistic sense.  Smoke and fury signifying nothing.  Jordan Peterson is a psychologist and really does not have any political agenda.  It just so happens that his psychological research does not sanction the lifestyle choices some people make and their agenda brought him the notoriety he has, not his own actions. 

If a person tries to identify Peterson as a politician they are full of baloney.  He is a psychologist most concerned with individuals getting their shit together.  That he would be thrown into the dark web blunderbuss shows the whole notion is nothing but a whole lot of commotion.

If a dark web facilitates discussion members typing away on it will consist of not only the worlds tallest midgets but also the worlds smartest idiots.

It's a useful fiction. The term itself is a bit silly and not technically accurate. I can also see how it would annoy the hell out of people. I just think it's convenient to have some term to use to describe people who share the qualities I described before:

"a loose grouping of public intellectuals who have been early adopters of internet technology allowing long-form talks and discussions" who also have a high degree of respect for free thought/speech.

JP is by no means a politician or politically motivated, but he didn't shy away from political/legal debate when he believed the Canadian government had codified a social constructionist view of gender into law and was attempting to compel speech. He does not take well to people blatantly going against established science and trying to force their anti-scientific views on others through the powers of the state, while also managing to denigrate the best and only mechanism we have for conducting meaningful dialogue between the left and right.

He is also very focused on how we find the most meaning in life through taking on heavy responsibilities, as opposed to simply seeking happiness, empathy and compassion at all times, or pretending to seek those things. Like you said, about people getting their shit together (before they try to get society's shit together). That focus inevitably spills over into political debates. I think the key for him is that our ethics and scientific understanding should always inform our politics instead of the other way around.

Online Eddie

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2018, 06:36:23 AM »
I find the expropriation of 'dark web' to try and pin on a nebulous political orientation to be a case of an emperor wearing no clothes in a linguistic sense.  Smoke and fury signifying nothing.  Jordan Peterson is a psychologist and really does not have any political agenda.  It just so happens that his psychological research does not sanction the lifestyle choices some people make and their agenda brought him the notoriety he has, not his own actions. 

If a person tries to identify Peterson as a politician they are full of baloney.  He is a psychologist most concerned with individuals getting their shit together.  That he would be thrown into the dark web blunderbuss shows the whole notion is nothing but a whole lot of commotion.

If a dark web facilitates discussion members typing away on it will consist of not only the worlds tallest midgets but also the worlds smartest idiots.

It's a useful fiction. The term itself is a bit silly and not technically accurate. I can also see how it would annoy the hell out of people. I just think it's convenient to have some term to use to describe people who share the qualities I described before:

"a loose grouping of public intellectuals who have been early adopters of internet technology allowing long-form talks and discussions" who also have a high degree of respect for free thought/speech.

JP is by no means a politician or politically motivated, but he didn't shy away from political/legal debate when he believed the Canadian government had codified a social constructionist view of gender into law and was attempting to compel speech. He does not take well to people blatantly going against established science and trying to force their anti-scientific views on others through the powers of the state, while also managing to denigrate the best and only mechanism we have for conducting meaningful dialogue between the left and right.

He is also very focused on how we find the most meaning in life through taking on heavy responsibilities, as opposed to simply seeking happiness, empathy and compassion at all times, or pretending to seek those things. Like you said, about people getting their shit together (before they try to get society's shit together). That focus inevitably spills over into political debates. I think the key for him is that our ethics and scientific understanding should always inform our politics instead of the other way around.

After my limited exposure of watching the first video, and reading a number  of articles about JP (including some hit pieces), I draw about the same conclusions as Ashvin.

I'd call JP a "reluctant social and political critic", and not just a psychologist or an academician. I'm glad I don't have to live and work in today's university culture. Too me, it's a toxic environment full of man-traps and PC bullshit. I know I wouldn't last long.

He is a guy with a book for sale. I'm sure he wrote it for reasons beyond getting a check, but I do try to remember that there is a financial interest in his pop psychology publications. With that said, he seems to espouse values that are fairly identical to my own, so I hope people read his book and it has an impact. I have not yet read it but i'd like to...


What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Ashvin

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2018, 06:45:22 AM »
I just recently came across this debate over the gender pronoun issues. It's great, but you could even skip to the Q&A section at the end. Because, IMO, JP is absolutely brilliant in responding to the questions and illuminating the underlying issues.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/pzkNHpiJ7AE" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/pzkNHpiJ7AE</a>

Offline Ashvin

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2018, 05:39:57 AM »
A 48 min. discussion between JP and Douglas Murray on Trump, the dangers of identity politics on the left and right, and the taboo nature of valid scientific research on IQ, ethnic differences, etc. which threatens ideological "equity" doctrines.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/mNJyAKy-A2g" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/mNJyAKy-A2g</a>

Offline Ashvin

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2018, 02:28:06 PM »
He is a guy with a book for sale. I'm sure he wrote it for reasons beyond getting a check, but I do try to remember that there is a financial interest in his pop psychology publications. With that said, he seems to espouse values that are fairly identical to my own, so I hope people read his book and it has an impact. I have not yet read it but i'd like to...

His book "maps of meaning" is the more philosophical one and it's a tough slog, I'm only half way through. 12 Rules for Life is more of a breeze, but definitely worth a read.

I can't fault anyone for trying to earn some compensation for their time and effort - but the key for me is whether they ONLY release content to people who pay, or if they also provide free content. JP provides A TON of free content, including youtube videos which break down every chapter of his books.

He also does a modern psychological analysis of the Biblical stories, which I highly recommend. Again, very tough sledding, but worth it. I started doing about 30-60 min at night while laying in bed.

Offline Ashvin

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW) - Deborah Soh and the Damore Memo
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2018, 06:20:40 AM »
No, the Google manifesto isn’t sexist or anti-diversity. It’s science

DEBRA SOH
CONTRIBUTED TO THE GLOBE AND MAIL
PUBLISHED AUGUST 8, 2017
UPDATED AUGUST 8, 2017


By now, most of us have heard about Google's so-called "anti-diversity" manifesto and how James Damore, the engineer who wrote it, has been fired from his job.

Titled Google's Ideological Echo Chamber, Mr. Damore called out the current PC culture, saying the gender gap in Google's diversity was not due to discrimination, but inherent differences in what men and women find interesting. Danielle Brown, Google's newly appointed vice-president for diversity, integrity and governance, accused the memo of advancing "incorrect assumptions about gender," and Mr. Damore confirmed last night he was fired for "perpetuating gender stereotypes."

Despite how it's been portrayed, the memo was fair and factually accurate. Scientific studies have confirmed sex differences in the brain that lead to differences in our interests and behaviour.

As mentioned in the memo, gendered interests are predicted by exposure to prenatal testosterone – higher levels are associated with a preference for mechanically interesting things and occupations in adulthood. Lower levels are associated with a preference for people-oriented activities and occupations. This is why STEM (science, technology, engineering and mathematics) fields tend to be dominated by men.

We see evidence for this in girls with a genetic condition called congenital adrenal hyperplasia, who are exposed to unusually high levels of testosterone in the womb. When they are born, these girls prefer male-typical, wheeled toys, such as trucks, even if their parents offer more positive feedback when they play with female-typical toys, such as dolls. Similarly, men who are interested in female-typical activities were likely exposed to lower levels of testosterone.

As well, new research from the field of genetics shows that testosterone alters the programming of neural stem cells, leading to sex differences in the brain even before it's finished developing in utero. This further suggests that our interests are influenced strongly by biology, as opposed to being learned or socially constructed.

Many people, including a former Google employee, have attempted to refute the memo's points, alleging that they contradict the latest research.

I'd love to know what "research done […] for decades" he's referring to, because thousands of studies would suggest otherwise. A single study, published in 2015, did claim that male and female brains existed along a "mosaic" and that it isn't possible to differentiate them by sex, but this has been refuted by four – yes, four – academic studies since.

This includes a study that analyzed the exact same brain data from the original study and found that the sex of a given brain could be correctly identified with 69-per-cent to 77-per-cent accuracy.

Of course, differences exist at the individual level, and this doesn't mean environment plays no role in shaping us. But to claim that there are no differences between the sexes when looking at group averages, or that culture has greater influence than biology, simply isn't true.

In fact, research has shown that cultures with greater gender equity have larger sex differences when it comes to job preferences, because in these societies, people are free to choose their occupations based on what they enjoy.

As the memo suggests, seeking to fulfill a 50-per-cent quota of women in STEM is unrealistic. As gender equity continues to improve in developing societies, we should expect to see this gender gap widen.

This trend continues into the area of personality, as well. Contrary to what detractors would have you believe, women are, on average, higher in neuroticism and agreeableness, and lower in stress tolerance.

Some intentionally deny the science because they are afraid it will be used to justify keeping women out of STEM. But sexism isn't the result of knowing facts; it's the result of what people choose to do with them.

This is exactly what the mob of outrage should be mobilizing for, instead of denying biological reality and being content to spend a weekend doxxing a man so that he would lose his job. At this point, as foreshadowed in Mr. Damore's manifesto, we should be more concerned about viewpoint diversity than diversity revolving around gender.

Debra Soh writes about the science of human sexuality and holds a PhD in sexual neuroscience from York University.

Offline Ashvin

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW) - JP on Alex Jones deplatforming (clip)
« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2018, 06:28:38 AM »
"I have always been among those who believed that the greatest freedom of speech was the greatest safety, because if a man is a fool, the best thing to do is to encourage him to advertise the fact by speaking. It cannot be so easily discovered if you allow him to remain silent and look wise, but if you let him speak, the secret is out and the world knows that he is a fool. So it is by the exposure of folly that it is defeated; not by the seclusion of folly, and in this free air of free speech men get into that sort of communication with one another which constitutes the basis of all common achievement." - Woodrow Wilson

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Offline Golden Oxen

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On the Vital Necessity of Free Speech (Are You Listening, Saudis)?

The Montreal Press Club marked the occasion of its 70th anniversary in 2018 by initiating a “Freedom Award” to mark the accomplishments of a single exceptionally courageous individual in the world of journalism. They chose as their first recipient Saudi blogger Raif Badawi (https://www.raifbadawi.org/), who has been tortured and imprisoned for his views by the oh-so-enlightened rulers of that state. I delivered this lecture on free speech on the occasion of the acceptance of the Press Club award by Raif Badawi's wife, Ensaf Haidar, April 26/2018 (video uploaded August 20).

Jordan B Peterson
Published on Aug 20, 2018


     
                                               <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/EuNeqawPuuY" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/EuNeqawPuuY</a>

Offline Ashvin

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2018, 01:47:08 AM »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/eqCNTopdBBs" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/eqCNTopdBBs</a>

 

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