AuthorTopic: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)  (Read 7236 times)

Offline K-Dog

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #210 on: March 20, 2019, 08:27:21 AM »
I think we've got a 3 three four or five way marriage going on.  Not sure about the number but the the lack of respect shows divorce is in the air.

I think we call all agree that 'racist' being bantered between Diners is inappropriate.  Considering we are all old white farts screaming that epithet at each other makes about as much sense as the wife in a mixed marriage calling her husband a racist.  WTF

Please remember.  Mary Poppins spoon full of sugar makes the medicine go down dimwits want to call us strange and deluded any chance they get.  Actors will be showing up and getting in arguments with other Diners will be their sole agenda!  That that analysis may not apply in the present circumstances but our code of conduct to prevent playing that game still applies.  We can't have it both ways. 

I think Doom should pardon the pun, TRUMP politics here.  As Diners we don't have to buy into the left/right politics of ignorance and narrow minds.  We can define ourselves in terms of the reality of doom.  Our Phosphorus is going!  I'm a Diner because the science says that is the appropriate frame of view not because I have a particular personality or need to be weird.  Some people do pick an ideology because it 'fits' them.  I am not one of those.

In the case of Jordan Peterson we should be looking at his ideas and asking if his spin on 'patriarchy' has any value in the reality of Doom.  Falling into the stupid left /right debate about JP is a disappointment and I'm not liking to see it.  His ideas from a doom perspective do have some merit though he has a mainstream ignorance of doom itself.

The left assumes that resources are bottomless and the world can support an infinite variety of sexual orientations.  It can't.  Fuck the Left.  The left in particular has a problem with JP because many people who identify with the left do not do so for any ideological reasons whatever.  They identify with the left because the left can represent their anything goes nothing matters, more for me points, of view hidden behind a shield of equality and social progress.  JP says there are rules to the game and the 'left' does not want to hear it.

Yet the right assumes that god has ordained existing arrangements and that this is the best that can be done.  Fuck the right and fuck their god.  There is nothing ordained about the current arrangements except that this is what stupid people do.  We need to keep the good parts but throw away the rest.

Concerning JP and the reaction against him.  I'm weary of the term 'patriarchy' being applied to men such as myself who have worked hard to get where they are in life and actually have what they have because they worked for it and made wise choices at least a little bit.  Men who chose to educate themselves and who earned trust by their actions and by showing up for work. 

Seems some, unwilling to do the time to earn goodies in life think the American cornucopia should just give them free stuff.  They apparently don't know the planet is finite but free riders can't very well criticize other free riders so they choose success as their target instead of themselves.  Passing the buck.  It is what humans do.  What we should be doing is all be doing our part to make a better whole and not be worrying so much about individual slices of pie.

Politics and doom are connected.  No question about that.  Not getting lost in the politics and keeping the reality of doom as the primary perspective should be how we do things here.  Detractors have and will try and exploit the connection for their own ends.  Don't fall for it.

Ashvin took you guys hook line and sinker.

Appropriate equality is a goal of a committed Doomer.  Why? To all you dufi who don't get it.  For the simple reason resources are finite!  The only argument is about what is appropriate.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 09:11:44 AM by K-Dog »
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Offline RE

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #211 on: March 20, 2019, 09:14:03 AM »
I think we've got a 3 three four or five way marriage going on.  Not sure about the number but the the lack of respect shows divorce is in the air.


Divorce is unnecessary.  This Patriarch has taken over the show.  There is no marriage here.  I am a Single Father with a bunch of misbehaving children.  I can throw you out of the house or you can run away from home, but you can't divorce me. lol.

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I think we call all agree that 'racist' being bantered between Diners is inappropriate.  Considering we are all old white farts screaming that epithet at each other makes about as much sense as the wife in a mixed marriage calling her husband racist.  WTF

Calling another Diner a "racist" is an Ad Hom, and out of bounds.  You can of course call anyone who is not a Diner racist.  You can also say that a particular Diner's POV is in agreement with the racist policies fo some non-Diner Nazi.  This is a judgement call on my part.  My decisions on the matter are irrevocable and not subject to discussion

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Please remember.  Mary Poppins spoon full of sugar makes the medicine go down dimwits want to call us strange and deluded any chance they get.  Actors will be showing up and getting in arguments with other Diners will be their sole agenda!  That that analysis may not apply in the present circumstances but our code of conduct to prevent playing that game still applies.  We can't have it both ways.

REAL Vermont Maple Syrup works GREAT also!  Did great work on my Citrus Salmon (Cooking Zone recipe up next weekend).

Quote
I think Doom should pardon the pun, TRUMP politics here.  As Diners we don't have to buy into the left/right politics of ignorance and narrow minds.  We can define ourselves in terms of the reality of doom.  Our Phosphorus is going.  I'm a Diner because the science says that is the appropriate frame of view not because I have a particular personality or need to be weird.  Some people do pick an ideology because it 'fits' them.  I am not one of those.

Collapse is the main topic of the Diner, not politics.  I already made that clear.  Diners who bog down in political distractions will see their posts disappearing to the Great Beyond.

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In the case of Jordan Peterson we should be looking at his ideas and asking if his spin on 'patriarchy' has any value in the reality of Doom.  Falling into the stupid left /right debate about JP is a disappointment and I'm not liking to see it.  His ideas from a doom perspective do have some merit.

Feel free to discuss JP all you like.  Just no videos.

Quote
The left assumes that resources are bottomless and the world can support an infinite variety of sexual orientations.  It can't.  Fuck the Left.  The left in particular has a problem with JP because many people who identify with the left do not do so for any ideological reasons whatever.  They identify with the left because the left can represent their anything goes nothing matters, more for me points, of view hidden behind a shield of equality and social progress.

What Left is that?  I am unfamiliar with any such "left".  It's also incorrect to say the "left" assumes all resources are bottomless.  Just the opposite is true.  I am further left than Che fucking Guevara and I sure don't assume infinite resources.

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The right assumes that god has ordained existing arrangements and that this is the best that can be done.  Fuck the right and fuck their god.  There is nothing ordained about the current arrangements except that this is what stupid people do.

Generally speaking, true.

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Concerning JP and the reaction against him.  I'm weary of the term 'patriarchy' being applied to men such as myself who have worked hard to get where they are in life and actually have what they have because they worked for it and made wise choices at least a little bit.  Men who chose to educate themselves and who earned trust by their actions.

"Patriarchy" is a very loaded word and gets bandied about all the time by "sensitive" guys like Dr. McStinksion, who is mainly interested in getting as much tail as he can before we all go extinct.

Quote
Seems some, unwilling to do the time to earn goodies in life think the American cornucopia should just give them free stuff.  They apparently don't know the planet is finite but free riders can't very well criticize other free riders so they choose success as their target instead of themselves.  Passing the buck.  It is what humans do.  What we should be doing is all be doing our part to make a better whole and not be worrying so much about individual slices of pie.

When you don't have enough pie to eat, it's hard not to worry about it.  Much easier for people who have plenty of pie to wax philosophical on this subject.

Quote
Politics and doom are connected.  No question about that.  Not getting lost in the politics and keeping the reality of doom as the primary perspective should be how we do things here.  Detractors have and will try and exploit the connection for their own ends.  Don't fall for it.

A restatement of the fact that the primary purpose of the Diner is to educate on COLLAPSE.  Politics is part of collapse of course, but it's not the whole fucking ballgame, as it seems to have become lately.  I am putting a stop to that.  Non-negotiable, don't bother complaining, I will just pitch another post to the Great Beyond.  Unlike some ex-Admins, I got no problems at all doing this as necessary.

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Ashvin took you guys hook line and sinker.

Not me,  I'm the Big Fish he can't hook.   ;D

RE
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Offline Surly1

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #212 on: March 20, 2019, 09:16:37 AM »
I think we've got a 3 three four or five way marriage going on.  Not sure about the number but the the lack of respect shows divorce is in the air.

I think we call all agree that 'racist' being bantered between Diners is inappropriate.  Considering we are all old white farts screaming that epithet at each other makes about as much sense as the wife in a mixed marriage calling her husband a racist.  WTF
So no white people should call out racism where they see it? Or they should just not do it HERE?
One of the remarkable and readily demonstrable things about white privilege is that it REALLY resents having its name said aloud.

Please remember.  Mary Poppins spoon full of sugar makes the medicine go down dimwits want to call us strange and deluded any chance they get.  Actors will be showing up and getting in arguments with other Diners will be their sole agenda!  That that analysis may not apply in the present circumstances but our code of conduct to prevent playing that game still applies.  We can't have it both ways. 

Their names are on the Diner Wall of Shame, even before you came along. Divide and conquer always works.

I think Doom should pardon the pun, TRUMP politics here.  As Diners we don't have to buy into the left/right politics of ignorance and narrow minds.  We can define ourselves in terms of the reality of doom.  Our Phosphorus is going.  I'm a Diner because the science says that is the appropriate frame of view not because I have a particular personality or need to be weird.  Some people do pick an ideology because it 'fits' them.  I am not one of those.

In the case of Jordan Peterson we should be looking at his ideas and asking if his spin on 'patriarchy' has any value in the reality of Doom.  Falling into the stupid left /right debate about JP is a disappointment and I'm not liking to see it.  His ideas from a doom perspective do have some merit.

You do it. IN one way, JP reminds me of Ron Paul: you can listen along to a line of argument, and find yourself nodding in agreement, and THEN! he says something utterly outrageous and reason-beggaring. I won't be nuzzling JP's nutsack like others here anytime soon.

The left assumes that resources are bottomless and the world can support an infinite variety of sexual orientations.  It can't.  Fuck the Left.  The left in particular has a problem with JP because many people who identify with the left do not do so for any ideological reasons whatever.  They identify with the left because the left can represent their anything goes nothing matters, more for me points, of view hidden behind a shield of equality and social progress.  JP says there are rules to the game and the 'left' does not want to hear it.

Yet the right assumes that god has ordained existing arrangements and that this is the best that can be done.  Fuck the right and fuck their god.  There is nothing ordained about the current arrangements except that this is what stupid people do.

Concerning JP and the reaction against him.  I'm weary of the term 'patriarchy' being applied to men such as myself who have worked hard to get where they are in life and actually have what they have because they worked for it and made wise choices at least a little bit.  Men who chose to educate themselves and who earned trust by their actions and by showing up for work. 

Certainly a lot of silliness on the left in terms of gender. I would think we'll run out of disposable cash for gender reassignment surgery in about ten minutes. This goes directly to your argument about resources, and lack of them.

Seems some, unwilling to do the time to earn goodies in life think the American cornucopia should just give them free stuff.  They apparently don't know the planet is finite but free riders can't very well criticize other free riders so they choose success as their target instead of themselves.  Passing the buck.  It is what humans do.  What we should be doing is all be doing our part to make a better whole and not be worrying so much about individual slices of pie.

And not a peep about income inequality, governmental capture by the rich, or justice. And THIS is why you can't divorce politics from any discussion of dom, because ultimately it's about the direction and allocation of resources. And the so-called "left" has ben taking it in the chops for the last fifty years. The victory of the counter-revolution against the New Deal, lavishly funded by the Right and abetted by eager volunteers and assorted acolytes, is almost complete.

Politics and doom are connected.  No question about that.  Not getting lost in the politics and keeping the reality of doom as the primary perspective should be how we do things here.  Detractors have and will try and exploit the connection for their own ends.  Don't fall for it.

Ashvin took you guys hook line and sinker.
He certainly made the most of his opportunities.

Appropriate equality is a goal of a committed Doomer.  Why? To all you dufi who don't get it.  For the simple reason resources are finite!  The only argument is about what is appropriate.
[/quote]

Very good comments. Except that you wholly and enthusiastically view it through the frame offered by the right. I can assure you I don't find myself in your definition. I think more about the lines of "E pluribus Unum," which as radical as a prayer breakfast, but has become hate speech by a galvanized right.

Am absolutely not buying the false equivalency of "both sides." only one side has been punching down, ratfucking elections and fighting dirty in my adult life. The fascist playbook has been written by history several times. The US is following it to the letter.

"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline Surly1

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #213 on: March 20, 2019, 09:40:34 AM »

Yes, white supremacism exist. What you completely miss is that people like you, working so hard to perpetuate your mythos of equality by legislation, have driven a large segment of angry people directly into the arms of white supremacists and fascists and just about anybody else who will take their legitimate complaints seriously. Trump for instance.
 
You are part of the problem, not part of the solution, as you would like to pretend.

You could be right. Yet I find myself wondering what an alternative might be. To sit silently, benefit from the blessings of white male old-farthood, and not speak out against the summary execution of black citizens by white cops?

To just accept the fact that the Klan and its auxiliaries are resurgent and given succor by Twitler in the White House? That mass murderers now call him out by name as their lodestar? Just shrug and say, "not my problem?"

That would be tough for me. Ultimately, it's unfair.

Where all this ties together, for me at least, is that the conflict between the founding principles and body of law in the US and its actual practice is being stretched thin at a time of limited resources, the availability of which is made worse by conscious strategies of income inequality and political immiseration. (Again, why politics matters.) The social struggles we see now are a result of traditionally oppressed tides of people wanting more pie. And those who make the pies want to keep them or sell them only at a price that is increasingly unaffordable.

Conservatives always go all "free shit army" when such discussions come up. Which is a mistake. The fact is that most people want to work, earn, provide for their family, and otherwise get along in their lives with an even chance of success. Most of the people who I've met in my life would willingly bet on their own number to succeed.

I could go on, but what's the point...
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline Eddie

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #214 on: March 20, 2019, 10:56:17 AM »

Yes, white supremacism exist. What you completely miss is that people like you, working so hard to perpetuate your mythos of equality by legislation, have driven a large segment of angry people directly into the arms of white supremacists and fascists and just about anybody else who will take their legitimate complaints seriously. Trump for instance.
 
You are part of the problem, not part of the solution, as you would like to pretend.

You could be right. Yet I find myself wondering what an alternative might be. To sit silently, benefit from the blessings of white male old-farthood, and not speak out against the summary execution of black citizens by white cops?

To just accept the fact that the Klan and its auxiliaries are resurgent and given succor by Twitler in the White House? That mass murderers now call him out by name as their lodestar? Just shrug and say, "not my problem?"

That would be tough for me. Ultimately, it's unfair.

Where all this ties together, for me at least, is that the conflict between the founding principles and body of law in the US and its actual practice is being stretched thin at a time of limited resources, the availability of which is made worse by conscious strategies of income inequality and political immiseration. (Again, why politics matters.) The social struggles we see now are a result of traditionally oppressed tides of people wanting more pie. And those who make the pies want to keep them or sell them only at a price that is increasingly unaffordable.

Conservatives always go all "free shit army" when such discussions come up. Which is a mistake. The fact is that most people want to work, earn, provide for their family, and otherwise get along in their lives with an even chance of success. Most of the people who I've met in my life would willingly bet on their own number to succeed.

I could go on, but what's the point...

Look, all I'm looking for here is acknowledgment that I have a reasonable POV. What you just said makes me feel like we still have some common  ground. Thank you.

Had I gotten that from AG I wouldn't be trolling him..but he trolls me now, and I'm going to make him sorry, or at least try. He has no ability to see anything except his own POV. My ad  hom, the one you went off on me for, was in response to a passive aggressive poke at me he took a couple of comments above mine.

On the issue of police violence against black men, I have two things to say. One is that I think those who point out that the MSM media stirs up racial tension by highly publicizing every black-shot-by-cop now (while never saying a word about whites-shot-by-cop) have a valid point.

It's because of ratings I think and not some conspiracy, but it has negative consequences.

The second part of what I'd like to say is that claims that blacks are SO much more likely to encounter police violence than whites comes from some cherry-picked data.

It is true that blacks get death-by-cop about 2.5X times more often than whites, when apples are measured against apples. But actually there is good evidence that if you look at OIS's (officer involved shootings) in general....... (and I'm talking apples to apples, adjusted for the difference in population demographics),  blacks are significantly LESS likely to be shot at AT ALL than whites.

This is a study from Harvard, not from the Guardian.

https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/fryer/files/fryer_police_aer.pdf

This doesn't sell newspapers, unfortunately. And I know you can find some study that will try to show this is wrong. Don't bother. My only point is that old white fart bias is not the only thing in play here. People, including you, are emotionally touched by injustice. Injustice sells newspapers like hotcakes. It also causes riots. It causes young white people to feel very guilty, too, and up-in-arms against their own tribe.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 12:22:38 PM by Eddie »
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Offline Ashvin

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #215 on: March 20, 2019, 11:31:40 AM »
]In the case of Jordan Peterson we should be looking at his ideas and asking if his spin on 'patriarchy' has any value in the reality of Doom.  Falling into the stupid left /right debate about JP is a disappointment and I'm not liking to see it.  His ideas from a doom perspective do have some merit though he has a mainstream ignorance of doom itself.

Alright, how about you first? What exactly is his "spin on patriarchy"?

Quote
The left assumes that resources are bottomless and the world can support an infinite variety of sexual orientations.  It can't.  Fuck the Left.  The left in particular has a problem with JP because many people who identify with the left do not do so for any ideological reasons whatever.  They identify with the left because the left can represent their anything goes nothing matters, more for me points, of view hidden behind a shield of equality and social progress.  JP says there are rules to the game and the 'left' does not want to hear it.

Yet the right assumes that god has ordained existing arrangements and that this is the best that can be done.  Fuck the right and fuck their god.  There is nothing ordained about the current arrangements except that this is what stupid people do.  We need to keep the good parts but throw away the rest.

Concerning JP and the reaction against him.  I'm weary of the term 'patriarchy' being applied to men such as myself who have worked hard to get where they are in life and actually have what they have because they worked for it and made wise choices at least a little bit.  Men who chose to educate themselves and who earned trust by their actions and by showing up for work. 

Seems some, unwilling to do the time to earn goodies in life think the American cornucopia should just give them free stuff.  They apparently don't know the planet is finite but free riders can't very well criticize other free riders so they choose success as their target instead of themselves.  Passing the buck.  It is what humans do.  What we should be doing is all be doing our part to make a better whole and not be worrying so much about individual slices of pie.

Apparently your ideas about politics are all connected to material resources or the lack of them, as if that's the only thing driving all aspects of human social organization throughout our history. You may think JP has a "mainstream view of doom" because he directly challenges this materialist view. Religion and mythology speak to a deeper understanding of human nature and human social interaction. It's not ALL a fight over land or energy.

Quote
Politics and doom are connected.  No question about that.  Not getting lost in the politics and keeping the reality of doom as the primary perspective should be how we do things here.  Detractors have and will try and exploit the connection for their own ends.  Don't fall for it.

Ashvin took you guys hook line and sinker.

I'd rather discuss philosophy or religion, but if you want to talk about collapse/doom, anyway you define it, there is no escaping politics. Maybe there's a reason why these topics get so much attention. While everyone tries to act like they are defending their honor here and would rather be focusing their energy on writing about doom prepping or whatever, their actions betray their actual desires. This is stuff people want to think about because it affects them immediately and personally.

Quote
Appropriate equality is a goal of a committed Doomer.  Why? To all you dufi who don't get it.  For the simple reason resources are finite!  The only argument is about what is appropriate.

That's like saying "existence is a goal of most humans, the only argument is why do we exist". That's a HUGE argument. And when it comes to 'appropriate equality', the argument will inevitably be political. Hundreds of millions of lives have been lost while people try to work that one out.

Offline Ashvin

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #216 on: March 20, 2019, 11:43:05 AM »

Yes, white supremacism exist. What you completely miss is that people like you, working so hard to perpetuate your mythos of equality by legislation, have driven a large segment of angry people directly into the arms of white supremacists and fascists and just about anybody else who will take their legitimate complaints seriously. Trump for instance.
 
You are part of the problem, not part of the solution, as you would like to pretend.

You could be right. Yet I find myself wondering what an alternative might be. To sit silently, benefit from the blessings of white male old-farthood, and not speak out against the summary execution of black citizens by white cops?

To just accept the fact that the Klan and its auxiliaries are resurgent and given succor by Twitler in the White House? That mass murderers now call him out by name as their lodestar? Just shrug and say, "not my problem?"

That would be tough for me. Ultimately, it's unfair.

I just have to say, this is what JP always points out when he discusses left-right political issues. Without fail, he will talk about how the LEFT has very valid points when it comes to inequality and unfairness generated by hierarchical institutions over time. He may spend a good 5-10 minutes discussing why the left has a valid perspective on these issues.

It's only after that when he would take to task the idea that there is "summary execution of black citizens by white cops". Regardless of the statistical data, which Eddie pointed out is never as simple as the media portrays it to be, such a statement is identity politics, pure and simple. It serves no other purpose than to inflame tensions between two groups of people based on their race, while also implying all individuals within those groups ("black citizens" and "white cops") are homogeneous.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 11:45:25 AM by Ashvin »

Offline knarf

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #217 on: March 20, 2019, 12:33:50 PM »
I came back to the Diner, because every other forum I examined, always became some political conflict. When then MSM is posting that the Arctic ice caps are melting 3 times faster that THEY  thought. We could see an ice free September in 1 -5 years. People all over the world are really beginning to suffer because of major climate events, and the reaction of Governments to continue on with fossil fuels, or completely change the way they operate. The American Empire is crumbling, our society is clueless on what to do to really fix the mess we have made . I thought maybe you all cared more about that stuff, than politics and cooking. Like I said AZ posted the message that summed up in a very astute manner the worlds predicament.
  Everything I post is about this collapse we are in. You might not see it immediately, but it will get to you sooner or latter. I am some what disappointed in the atmosphere the dinner has taken on. In this place I thought we shoved each other in the shoulder, sat back down, and had another drink together.
  There IS so much going on right now about Collapse that I am staying to post these news stories, and throw in some randomness.
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Offline RE

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #218 on: March 20, 2019, 01:10:18 PM »
  There IS so much going on right now about Collapse that I am staying to post these news stories, and throw in some randomness.

It is a Bizzy Time in Collapse, no doubt there.

EVERY forum of ANY type is always ground for conflict.  It's the nature of the beast.  No worries though, nobody is more experienced with this sorta shit than me, and I took back what I gave away in the interest of being "Democratic".  Like Free Speech, it only works as long as everyone is buying into the same etiquette.  That unfortunately never happens.  However, we did last 7 years this way, only made two before we had to pitch the unrestricted Free Speech idea to the Great Beyond.  So I consider that a success overall.

Now though, ZEUS is BACK.   :icon_sunny:  Don't fuck with me or fuck with the Doomstead Diner.  This is my baby, and I WILL protect and defend it until I am pushing up daisies.

Your contributions are of course always :hi: Knarf.  You are unfailingly polite.  :icon_sunny:

RE
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 02:19:57 PM by RE »
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Offline azozeo

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #219 on: March 20, 2019, 01:25:44 PM »
If AG were a hobbit, his name would be Douche Baggins.

And your name would be I Suck Jordan Peterson Cock. So what?

That is the most ad tom thing you have written here, and I would haver thought it beneath you had I not seen you steadily sink the more you post here.

Want to pick on someone? Pick on me.  I'm your huckleberry.

Trump has brought out the best of all the retrogrades.

Let me make a suggestion here.

The Diner is not up here to be a propaganda machine for a one-trick pony failed blogger turned Fundy Reactionary, and I suggest we leave Jordan Peterson behind here as too divisive in his politics and contrary to the goals and philosophy of the Doomstead Diner.  Watson can go try again in the Blogging Bizness and write a Daily Article on his Blog promoting JP there.

Let the rest of us return to the roots of the Doomstead Diner, which is to discuss COLLAPSE, not just mire down in political bickering.  There is plenty here to talk about in Economics, Energy, Climate, Science & Technology etc, etc etc to stay bizzy with.

RE

Seems like you and Surly are the ones mentioning JP the most around here lately. I don't recall saying a damn thing about him.

What I'm tired of is being disrespected by stupid people.  Be respectful to me and my POV, or ban me, or just shut the fuck up...I don't care.

 I won't roll over because you don't happen to agree with me. And if you call me names, like "white supremacist" (which I'm not) or a racist (which I'm not), or you want to tell me what to think, then I'm going fuck with you until you are very sorry you did. I'm not some lightweight, and I'm pissed off, in case you haven't noticed.

I've never heard of the cat before Ashvin regurgitated him here at the doomstead diner. One thing I'm not is sheltered. Naive, maybe...

I posted a piece on cracker ass favoritism yesterday, here, did you catch it.

The whole goddamn system is rigged & not towards wealthy dentistas or the rest of us useless eaters.

Psychopathes rule for a reason. & that reason is (nigel, high hat please  :icon_mrgreen:) They created it - B@@M  :icon_sunny:
I know exactly what you mean. Let me tell you why youíre here. Youíre here because you know something. What you know you canít explain, but you feel it. Youíve felt it your entire life, that thereís something wrong with the world.
You donít know what it is but its there, like a splinter in your mind

Offline Surly1

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #220 on: March 20, 2019, 06:55:07 PM »
[It's only after that when he would take to task the idea that there is "summary execution of black citizens by white cops". Regardless of the statistical data, which Eddie pointed out is never as simple as the media portrays it to be, such a statement is identity politics, pure and simple.

I suspect the families of Eric Garner, Philando Castile, Tamir Rice, Sandra Bland, Freddie Gray, Laquan McDonald, et al might beg to differ. Wasn't it Stalin who said, "One death is a tragedy; 1000 deaths is a statistic."

One of the most important lessons I ever learned was the importance of seeing (or trying to see) things through the eyes of another. I used to think I was effectively colorblind and fair, but it was a friend (a former Black Panther who says he used t HATE white people) who helped me become aware of how radically different ordinary American society looks though black eyes.) Just the act of entering a department store, and automatically have eyes on you, being watched and followed. That's just one infinitesimally small example among dozens daily... the things many of us take for granted look very different from the perspective of black Americans.

People decry "identity politics" which is the tendency of people sharing a particular racial, religious, ethnic, social, or cultural identity to form political alliances. When the dominant society is hostile to those identities, how is this not a sane and reasonable response? As I've said before, the dominant party calls it "political correctness" when the oppressed assert that they are tired of the status quo and act with purpose to change it.

It serves no other purpose than to inflame tensions between two groups of people based on their race, while also implying all individuals within those groups ("black citizens" and "white cops") are homogeneous.

Race relations in this country are already inflamed, and getting worse every day with every massacre or Twitler Tweetstorm. They've been bruised for many decades, and are now bleeding in the Trump era. The implications of the homogeneity you point to are, in my opinion, distinctions that don't make a difference.

I was listening to a Malcolm Gladwell podcast earlier today and he mentioned something in passing that points out the folly of generalizations--
In a discussion about stand-your-ground laws, the implications are that they may increase homicide rates about seven percent. And the sad case of Trayvon Martin notwithstanding, apparently most of the victims are white males. Which is surprising, at least to me. "Stand your ground" laws remove or invert the traditional "duty to retreat" of avoiding confrontation. Specifically:

Quote
In common law, there is a principle called Duty to Retreat, which holds that a person being threatened has a duty to retreat to a place of safety to exhaust all avenue of escape before they can justifiably use force in self-defence. In the past several years, though, about half of American states have passed Stand Your Ground laws. Now, what's a Stand Your Ground law? It's a law that, effectively, repeals Duty to Retreat. It says, "You don't need to exhaust all avenues of escape to claim self-defense in a court of law. You can stand your ground, defend yourself and the law will support that choice." Duty to Retreat is a legal principle that gives people license to act disagreeably. I am not a coward if I cut and run at the first opportunity. I am, in fact, acting morally and responsibly. Stand Your Ground laws sanction the socially agreeable act. They say what matters is that you preserve your honor in front of family and community. I did not run. I stood my ground.
https://simonsays.ai/app.html#!/public/ritzel-tampos/ED46Ozk0k8YN/revisionist-history-s03e07-m-gladwells-12-rules-for-life/X6M0PkJYOGwb

So what are the effects of these laws?

He referenced a study found on ssrn.com (Stand Your Ground laws, homicides and injuries, Journal of Human Resources, summer 2017), and spoke with Chandler McClellan of American University, first author of the study in question. He asserted that states that passed Stand Your Ground laws saw their murder rates rise 7.7% compared to states that didn't pass such laws.

Quote from: McClellan
...people are using these laws and standing their ground in cases where they're actually not being lethally threatened. They could de-escalate the situation, they could get away, but instead, they're choosing to engage in self-defense and use lethal force against this threat and, as a result, you're seeing this kind of net increase in homicide rates.

And the extra people getting killed in Stand Your Ground states are white men. Estimates kind of show about 20%-25% increase in homicides among white males which is a little surprising, but it's what the researcher said "fell out of the model."

The researcher mentioned that the time frame was short and the studies are preliminary. Yet the effects the researchers found fly in the face of what the agenda laden might expect. But it is evidence, as opposed to outrageous opinion and so-called "common sense."

I bring this up only to suggest that often the "conventional wisdom" really isn't.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 02:02:59 AM by Surly1 »
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline Surly1

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #221 on: March 20, 2019, 06:56:47 PM »
I came back to the Diner, because every other forum I examined, always became some political conflict. //
  There IS so much going on right now about Collapse that I am staying to post these news stories, and throw in some randomness.

For that we are grateful.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline K-Dog

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #222 on: March 20, 2019, 09:31:20 PM »
]In the case of Jordan Peterson we should be looking at his ideas and asking if his spin on 'patriarchy' has any value in the reality of Doom.  Falling into the stupid left /right debate about JP is a disappointment and I'm not liking to see it.  His ideas from a doom perspective do have some merit though he has a mainstream ignorance of doom itself.
Quote
Alright, how about you first? What exactly is his "spin on patriarchy"?

He tells men to be providers. he tells them that is their role in life.  He tells them that they need to become organized and serious about becoming the best person they can be.  Patriarchy by definition is male rule.  Peterson sees the traditional forms as having deep meaning because they center and define people and they evolved the way they did for good reasons.  He wants men to be responsible and take care of others.  If that all isn't a particular individual take on patriarchy what is? 

Peterson also does not see women differently, and his relationship with his daughter proves that.  But he is identified with 'patriarchy' and his tours gather male audiences mostly for circumstantial reasons.  Peterson does not advocate for a male dominated society.  But he is challenging young men to step up because they haven't been.  He has a special message for them but his real message is not one of patriarchy but one of 'responsibility' and in American politics responsibility is a very dirty world.


Quote

Apparently your ideas about politics are all connected to material resources or the lack of them, as if that's the only thing driving all aspects of human social organization throughout our history. You may think JP has a "mainstream view of doom" because he directly challenges this materialist view. Religion and mythology speak to a deeper understanding of human nature and human social interaction. It's not ALL a fight over land or energy.

I have two books (academic *) which pretty much say that and I've come across a third but you are pinning 'ALL' on me most unfairly and assuming I think that exclusively with your 'only'.  That is  setting up a straw man argument and I decline to participate.  Further you defined what a "mainstream view of doom" is but I never did.  So I will and you can take yours and put it elsewhere.  The mainstream view of doom is that there is no need for serious concern and the normal safety switch is to rant that 'technology' will save us.  Peterson does not put out any other answer than this answer so he is mainstream as a Cadillac on 1st Avenue.  Mainstream or in other words, ignorant as shit.  Sorry everybody but it is true. 

Where you really go off the rails is with "a deeper understanding of human nature and human social interaction".  That is an entirely different subject than 'doom'.  Doom influences them and they influence doom but as subjects they are apples and oranges.  An expert in one subject may be entirely ignorant of the other realm.  Is there more going on than doom?  Of course!  Don't be silly.

Quote

I'd rather discuss philosophy or religion, but if you want to talk about collapse/doom, anyway you define it, there is no escaping politics. Maybe there's a reason why these topics get so much attention. While everyone tries to act like they are defending their honor here and would rather be focusing their energy on writing about doom prepping or whatever, their actions betray their actual desires. This is stuff people want to think about because it affects them immediately and personally.

If you'd rather discuss something else you can always get your own blog but really your complaint is something we all feel.  Sometimes it all seems like the same old same old no matter who you are.  We all get on our own hobby horse and you are no exception.

Quote
That's like saying "existence is a goal of most humans, the only argument is why do we exist". That's a HUGE argument. And when it comes to 'appropriate equality', the argument will inevitably be political. Hundreds of millions of lives have been lost while people try to work that one out.

No it is not.  Resources are a physical property of the universe as is the distribution of them.  How limited and finite resources are distributed is not a philosophical question like 'existence is a goal of most humans'.  You conflated entirely different things.

* Books:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7538274-poverty-and-progress

http://www.craigdilworth.com/  <-- Too smart for our own good.

The third I'll read before I mention.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 10:57:41 PM by K-Dog »
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Offline K-Dog

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #223 on: March 20, 2019, 09:32:20 PM »
I came back to the Diner, because every other forum I examined, always became some political conflict. //
  There IS so much going on right now about Collapse that I am staying to post these news stories, and throw in some randomness.

For that we are grateful.

I'll second that!
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline Ashvin

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Re: The Intellectual Dark Web (IDW)
« Reply #224 on: March 21, 2019, 02:22:42 AM »
[It's only after that when he would take to task the idea that there is "summary execution of black citizens by white cops". Regardless of the statistical data, which Eddie pointed out is never as simple as the media portrays it to be, such a statement is identity politics, pure and simple.

I suspect the families of Eric Garner, Philando Castile, Tamir Rice, Sandra Bland, Freddie Gray, Laquan McDonald, et al might beg to differ. Wasn't it Stalin who said, "One death is a tragedy; 1000 deaths is a statistic."

Exactly (I'm not sure if Stalin said it, but he may as well have). You can bet a shooting of a black person by a white cop will be covered to death by the MSM (or media in general) and open all sorts of "discussion" (more like shouting) about systemic racism in this country. They will milk the tragedy for all it's worth.

The statistic that most police shooting victims are white will not be covered at all. Nor will the statistic that most violent crimes are committed by non-white people. First, people find statistics boring and the media doesn't like to cover things that don't pack an emotional punch. Second, it doesn't play into any narrative the media wants to weave - certainly not the one of systemic racism.

Quote
One of the most important lessons I ever learned was the importance of seeing (or trying to see) things through the eyes of another. I used to think I was effectively colorblind and fair, but it was a friend (a former Black Panther who says he used t HATE white people) who helped me become aware of how radically different ordinary American society looks though black eyes.) Just the act of entering a depart meant store, and automatically have eyes on you, being watched and followed. That's just one infinitesimally small example among dozens daily...

I'm probably one of the few people here who has been the target of racial epithets. I've heard "go back to your country" or some variation of that plenty of times, and that's without ever visiting the deep south. This is not evidence of systemic racism. Yes, different minority groups have different experiences in this country, and some of them no doubt involve bigotry and racism. This cannot be a justification of blanket pronouncement that our society is inherently racist throughout its institutions. And such a pronouncement does not do the actual victims of racism any favors.

Quote
People decry "identity politics" which is the tendency of people sharing a particular racial, religious, ethnic, social, or cultural identity to form political alliances. When the dominant society is hostile to those identities, how is this not a sane and reasonable response? As I've said before, the dominant party calls it "political correctness" when the oppressed assert that they are tired of the status quo and act with purpose to change it.

That's not necessarily how I would define identity politics, although political alliances should be based on more than who you share an identity with. (the liberal intersectional theorists are finding out that this doesn't work anyway, because you share multiple identities with multiple groups, some of which may be at odds with each other).

I would say identity politics is when group identity is held to be paramount above individual identities, and tensions among various groups of people are exploited for political talking points. Political correctness is when some people playing identity politics want to shut down speech or expression that challenges their perspective.

Quote
It serves no other purpose than to inflame tensions between two groups of people based on their race, while also implying all individuals within those groups ("black citizens" and "white cops") are homogeneous.

Race relations in this country are already inflamed, and getting worse every day with every massacre or Twitler Tweetstorm. They've been bruised for many decades, and are now bleeding in the Trump era. The implications of the homogeneity you point to are, in my opinion, distinctions that don't make a difference.

The fact that a relatively small number of activists are claiming to represent the ideas, opinions, frustrations, etc. of an entire population of people, whether it's blacks/minorities, women, gays, transgenders, etc. makes a difference. Pretending like the people within these groups have uniform perspectives is an attempt to rob them of their individuality, and that makes a difference.

Quote
I was listening to a Malcolm Gladwell podcast earlier today and he mentioned something in passing that points out the folly of generalizations--
In a discussion about stand-your-ground laws, the implications are that they may increase homicide rates about seven percent. And the sad case of Trayvon Martin notwithstanding, apparently most of the victims are white males. Which is surprising, at least to me. "Stand your ground" laws remove or invert the traditional "duty to retreat" of avoiding confrontation. Specifically:

Quote
In common law, there is a principle called Duty to Retreat, which holds that a person being threatened has a duty to retreat to a place of safety to exhaust all avenue of escape before they can justifiably use force in self-defence. In the past several years, though, about half of American states have passed Stand Your Ground laws. Now, what's a Stand Your Ground law? It's a law that, effectively, repeals Duty to Retreat. It says, "You don't need to exhaust all avenues of escape to claim self-defense in a court of law. You can stand your ground, defend yourself and the law will support that choice." Duty to Retreat is a legal principle that gives people license to act disagreeably. I am not a coward if I cut and run at the first opportunity. I am, in fact, acting morally and responsibly. Stand Your Ground laws sanction the socially agreeable act. They say what matters is that you preserve your honor in front of family and community. I did not run. I stood my ground.
https://simonsays.ai/app.html#!/public/ritzel-tampos/ED46Ozk0k8YN/revisionist-history-s03e07-m-gladwells-12-rules-for-life/X6M0PkJYOGwb

So what are the effects of these laws?

He referenced a study found on ssrn.com (Stand Your Ground laws, homicides and injuries, Journal of Human Resources, summer 2017), and spoke with Chandler McClellan of American University, first author of the study in question. He asserted that states that passed Stand Your Ground laws saw their murder rates rise 7.7% compared to states that didn't pass such laws.

Quote from: McClellan
...people are using these laws and standing their ground in cases where they're actually not being lethally threatened. They could de-escalate the situation, they could get away, but instead, they're choosing to engage in self-defense and use lethal force against this threat and, as a result, you're seeing this kind of net increase in homicide rates.

And the extra people getting killed in Stand Your Ground states are white men. Estimates kind of show about 20%-25% increase in homicides among white males which is a little surprising, but it's what the researcher said "fell out of the model."

The researcher mentioned that the time frame was short and the studies are preliminary. Yet the effects the researchers found fly in the face of what the agenda laden might expect. But it is evidence, as opposed to outrageous opinion and so-called "common sense."

I bring this up only to suggest that often the "conventional wisdom" really isn't.

Well that's an interesting statistical development. But like the researcher says, it's a preliminary finding and who knows what it means. It makes sense to me that people who stand their ground could be more likely to get killed, but that doesn't necessarily mean the right to stand your ground is a bad one. I totally agree that "conventional wisdom" often isn't, and sometimes it is, but we need to go where the evidence can take us on these issues and no further.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 02:27:24 AM by Ashvin »

 

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