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👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
« on: September 20, 2018, 12:25:53 AM »
It was worse in Stalinist Russia?  Really?

R

Why Police Kill So Often
September 19, 2018 branford perry


HELP ENLIGHTEN YOUR FELLOWS. BE SURE TO PASS THIS ON. SURVIVAL DEPENDS ON IT.

by CARL FINAMORE
The picture is becoming clearer each day how policing in the United States is so brutally more violent than any other industrialized country.
These demonstrators are never interviewed in depth, just passing, almost incomprehensible snippets.

The FBI reports 404 civilians were killed by police in 2011. All were listed as “justifiable homicides.” Under more intense questioning, it was then revealed that figures are not actually kept for “unjustified” police murders and, remarkably, their statistics rely exclusively on incidents self-reported by the cops.

Nonetheless, even with the problematic figures at hand that are surely underestimated, the number of people killed by police stands starkly apart and darkly atop the rest of the world.

The differences are staggering.

For example, in contrast to the FBI’s numbers of 404 killed by police in 2011, Australian police killed six people, police in England and Wales killed two people and German police killed six.

In England, one person was killed by police in 2014 and none in 2013 with only three reported incidents of cops even firing their weapons. In Germany during those years, zero police killings.

These national trends are not flukes.

Looked at locally, in Albuquerque, New Mexico, police killed 26 people during 2010-2014. The southwestern city had, with one percent of England’s population of 52 million, more than six times the number of fatal police shootings.

Why Police Violence?
To get an answer, let’s look at what is the same and what is different between the United States and European countries.

First, let’s dispense with the notion that the top rulers in the States are more violent than their upper-crust cousins across the pond. Absolutely untrue.

The French in Algeria acted like barbarian colonizers, as did the British in Northern Ireland. No better than the U.S. in Vietnam around the same time. More recently in the Middle East, it’s clear both Europe and the U.S. conduct murderous operations in total unison to protect their property and profit interests.

Now, let’s look at some other explanations for the extreme police violence in America.

Some say it results from cops not being screened, not being trained and not being supervised. This argument is extremely weak because it focuses on correcting individual behavior of a few “bad apples”.

In fact, contrariwise, it has been more credibly argued that racial discrimination is deeply entrenched in the institutions of society and in the policies of government.

Others blame militarization of local police departments for the excessive force while still others fault high rates of incarceration in this country which, true enough, represent almost 25 percent of all people imprisoned in the entire world.

Without a doubt, the cumulative evidence definitely shows criminalization of an entire section of the population with particular targeting of Black and Latino youth, especially for minor drug infractions.

However, regardless of the merits of some of the arguments above, I do not believe any adequately explain the blood-stained history of police violence in this country and why our record is so vastly worse than other industrialized countries.

Different Traditions, Consciousness & Organization
Essentially, I argue there is more extreme repression in the U.S. primarily because of our extremely racist and genocidal historical record, because of the high residual level of racial division and because of the low level of political organization of the working class.

The very formation of this country was rooted in genocide against indigenous people and the enslavement of millions of African peoples. Our heralded pioneer expansion westward and into the southwest in the 19th century also involved the very violent forced land expropriation of Mexican residents, some of whom were settled on the lands for centuries.

After the Civil War, extreme cruelty continued to suppress the former slaves and this, as we know, lasted until appalling Jim Crow segregationist laws were torn down through the work of the massive civil rights movement only some 50 years ago.

Such extensive brutality against peoples of color is what truly defines the much-touted “American Exceptionalism” and it has affected and infected the consciousness of the white population to this very day.

According to current polls, a large percentage of whites still disbelieves discrimination against people of color even exists. Worse, one canvass recently showed that most whites believe there is more “anti-white” discrimination than bias against Blacks. Incredible.

It is important to note that the deeply troubling formative experiences of white American settlers, as they explored and conquered, was absent in the more established nation states of Europe.

In effect, the rulers of Europe offshored their violent ways to their colonies where, as I have just argued, horrific vestiges remain deeply encrusted in the backward, racist prejudices of the white population.

By contrast, in Europe during the formative years of 19th and 20thcentury industrialization, workers organized mass labor, socialist and communist parties that created a strong class identity and an emphasis on collective action.

Consequently, this led to stronger social bonds that ultimately united the population in common pursuits for labor rights, government health care, more vacation time, social security, child care and maternity leave; reforms far superior to anything in the U.S.

Because of the absence of America’s violent traditions that pitted working people against each other, the European working class was better able to unite and more effectively struggle on both social and economic issues which, I believe, also explains the more measured restraint of their rulers against massively popular desires for reform.

Unfortunately, in the last 25 years, this solidarity consciousness has steadily declined and, consequently, has resulted in significant setbacks eroding social programs and the standard of living.

It was during this period that the largely nationally homogenous European white working class was also confronted for the first time by large numbers of immigrants of color. Regrettably, racism against the new arrivals has fractured the once successful and powerful national unity of the working classes.

We can expect more police violence directed at immigrants, I suspect, as the native European working class trends more like the divided working class in America.

As previously mentioned, the U.S. working class has always been separated by race and, therefore, has neither enjoyed the unity necessary to defend its most oppressed sectors nor enjoyed the substantial social gains of the European workers that can only be produced by a united movement.

This is the high price we pay for our ignorance and is a repudiation of the false notion that white workers somehow gain an advantage from their racist “white-skin privilege.”

There are no privileges that accrue from division of the working class except those that are solely advantageous to the bosses.

Disorganized Rebellion Becomes a Riot
When the most oppressed sections of the working class can no longer tolerate degrading social conditions, resistance inevitably flares up.

But, because oppressed communities of color are politically isolated and left to fend for themselves without support from organized labor or from the white majority, their frustration sometimes explodes into disorganized, individual acts of random violence which then makes the community even more vulnerable to police attacks.

This has happened in both the U.S. and Europe.

For example, authorities ruthlessly repressed the 2011 rebellion in London’s Tottenham immigrant neighborhood. Over 3100 arrests were made after a fatal shooting by police of a local resident triggered large protests.

I maintain that Tottenham residents were more endangered and police assault against them more escalated because they were isolated politically and socially from the rest of British society and particularly from the rest of the working class and its organizations.

This partitioning mirrors precisely the situation of people of color in the States.

Without question, the same sharp decline of divided U.S. labor awaits the European working class if their unity is further eroded.

Stand Up & Stand Guard
Do not expect America’s elite to change their stripes and offer a prescription for reducing police violence.

We are the ones who must change – our solidarity, our consciousness and our organization must be strengthened to end the segregation of those most oppressed among us who suffer the severest forms of police repression for rebelling against conditions few would consider livable.

There are vivid examples in our history of how militant labor fought to stay united against policies designed to pick off more vulnerable sections of the working class.

For example, Teamsters in Minneapolis during the 1930s depression patrolled the streets to move evicted poor families with their belongings strewn on the sidewalk back into their homes. Again, very conscious of being divided, the same union actively worked to unite with the unemployed, joining mass picket lines of the demanding more jobs.

Unions on the east coast and the midwest along with the International Longshore union (ILWU) on the west coast during the same period took similar militant solidarity actions in support of victims of racist courtroom frame-ups and physical assaults, all designed to keep the working class united.

With this legacy in mind, ILWU Local 10 members in the 1970s stood 24-hour guard outside the home of a Black family in Concord, Calif. that was being terrorized by Ku Klux Klan cross burnings on their lawn.

Continuing this honorable tradition, the same union conducted a May 1, 2015 shut down of the Port of Oakland in support of “Black Lives Matter.”

And, in my own city, the San Francisco Labor Council recently supported mass picketing of homes hoping to prevent “predatory loan” evictions that targeted homeowners in the city’s besieged Black community.

These are singular acts of political courage that reveal the true heart of labor solidarity. But, they are the exception, not the rule.

Contingents of organized labor should take their example and stand up and stand guard whenever people of color experience repression that otherwise would surely never be tolerated by whites.

In fact, labor in America has made its greatest accomplishments only when the gaping racial divide was breeched such as during the massively successful steel and auto union organizing drives in the 1930s.

Protection and justice for a minority can only be achieved through action by the majority, united by a common sense of fairness under the time-honored emblem of “an injury to one, is an injury to all.”

To do otherwise is to limit us all from making social gains denied us by a power structure contemptuously looking down upon a people divided as they imperially tower over us all.
 
ABOUT THE AUTHOR
 Carl Finamore is Machinist Local 1781 delegate to the San Francisco Labor Council, AFL-CIO. He can be reached at local1781@yahoo.com
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Offline Surly1

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Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2018, 01:50:35 AM »
I wish to hell you would post links with your stories. Makes it a pain in the ass to share these on social media.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline RE

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Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2018, 03:33:51 AM »
I wish to hell you would post links with your stories. Makes it a pain in the ass to share these on social media.

I do post links as a regular practice.  Once in a while I forget.  I'm not perfect.

https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/09/19/why-police-kill-so-often/

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Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2018, 06:09:06 AM »
It was worse in Stalinist Russia?  Really?

R

Why Police Kill So Often
September 19, 2018 branford perry


HELP ENLIGHTEN YOUR FELLOWS. BE SURE TO PASS THIS ON. SURVIVAL DEPENDS ON IT.

by CARL FINAMORE
The picture is becoming clearer each day how policing in the United States is so brutally more violent than any other industrialized country.
These demonstrators are never interviewed in depth, just passing, almost incomprehensible snippets.

The FBI reports 404 civilians were killed by police in 2011. All were listed as “justifiable homicides.” Under more intense questioning, it was then revealed that figures are not actually kept for “unjustified” police murders and, remarkably, their statistics rely exclusively on incidents self-reported by the cops.

Nonetheless, even with the problematic figures at hand that are surely underestimated, the number of people killed by police stands starkly apart and darkly atop the rest of the world.

The differences are staggering.

For example, in contrast to the FBI’s numbers of 404 killed by police in 2011, Australian police killed six people, police in England and Wales killed two people and German police killed six.

In England, one person was killed by police in 2014 and none in 2013 with only three reported incidents of cops even firing their weapons. In Germany during those years, zero police killings.

These national trends are not flukes.

Looked at locally, in Albuquerque, New Mexico, police killed 26 people during 2010-2014. The southwestern city had, with one percent of England’s population of 52 million, more than six times the number of fatal police shootings.

Why Police Violence?
To get an answer, let’s look at what is the same and what is different between the United States and European countries.

First, let’s dispense with the notion that the top rulers in the States are more violent than their upper-crust cousins across the pond. Absolutely untrue.

The French in Algeria acted like barbarian colonizers, as did the British in Northern Ireland. No better than the U.S. in Vietnam around the same time. More recently in the Middle East, it’s clear both Europe and the U.S. conduct murderous operations in total unison to protect their property and profit interests.

Now, let’s look at some other explanations for the extreme police violence in America.

Some say it results from cops not being screened, not being trained and not being supervised. This argument is extremely weak because it focuses on correcting individual behavior of a few “bad apples”.

In fact, contrariwise, it has been more credibly argued that racial discrimination is deeply entrenched in the institutions of society and in the policies of government.

Others blame militarization of local police departments for the excessive force while still others fault high rates of incarceration in this country which, true enough, represent almost 25 percent of all people imprisoned in the entire world.

Without a doubt, the cumulative evidence definitely shows criminalization of an entire section of the population with particular targeting of Black and Latino youth, especially for minor drug infractions.

However, regardless of the merits of some of the arguments above, I do not believe any adequately explain the blood-stained history of police violence in this country and why our record is so vastly worse than other industrialized countries.

Different Traditions, Consciousness & Organization
Essentially, I argue there is more extreme repression in the U.S. primarily because of our extremely racist and genocidal historical record, because of the high residual level of racial division and because of the low level of political organization of the working class.

The very formation of this country was rooted in genocide against indigenous people and the enslavement of millions of African peoples. Our heralded pioneer expansion westward and into the southwest in the 19th century also involved the very violent forced land expropriation of Mexican residents, some of whom were settled on the lands for centuries.

After the Civil War, extreme cruelty continued to suppress the former slaves and this, as we know, lasted until appalling Jim Crow segregationist laws were torn down through the work of the massive civil rights movement only some 50 years ago.

Such extensive brutality against peoples of color is what truly defines the much-touted “American Exceptionalism” and it has affected and infected the consciousness of the white population to this very day.

According to current polls, a large percentage of whites still disbelieves discrimination against people of color even exists. Worse, one canvass recently showed that most whites believe there is more “anti-white” discrimination than bias against Blacks. Incredible.

It is important to note that the deeply troubling formative experiences of white American settlers, as they explored and conquered, was absent in the more established nation states of Europe.

In effect, the rulers of Europe offshored their violent ways to their colonies where, as I have just argued, horrific vestiges remain deeply encrusted in the backward, racist prejudices of the white population.

By contrast, in Europe during the formative years of 19th and 20thcentury industrialization, workers organized mass labor, socialist and communist parties that created a strong class identity and an emphasis on collective action.

Consequently, this led to stronger social bonds that ultimately united the population in common pursuits for labor rights, government health care, more vacation time, social security, child care and maternity leave; reforms far superior to anything in the U.S.

Because of the absence of America’s violent traditions that pitted working people against each other, the European working class was better able to unite and more effectively struggle on both social and economic issues which, I believe, also explains the more measured restraint of their rulers against massively popular desires for reform.

Unfortunately, in the last 25 years, this solidarity consciousness has steadily declined and, consequently, has resulted in significant setbacks eroding social programs and the standard of living.

It was during this period that the largely nationally homogenous European white working class was also confronted for the first time by large numbers of immigrants of color. Regrettably, racism against the new arrivals has fractured the once successful and powerful national unity of the working classes.

We can expect more police violence directed at immigrants, I suspect, as the native European working class trends more like the divided working class in America.

As previously mentioned, the U.S. working class has always been separated by race and, therefore, has neither enjoyed the unity necessary to defend its most oppressed sectors nor enjoyed the substantial social gains of the European workers that can only be produced by a united movement.

This is the high price we pay for our ignorance and is a repudiation of the false notion that white workers somehow gain an advantage from their racist “white-skin privilege.”

There are no privileges that accrue from division of the working class except those that are solely advantageous to the bosses.

Disorganized Rebellion Becomes a Riot
When the most oppressed sections of the working class can no longer tolerate degrading social conditions, resistance inevitably flares up.

But, because oppressed communities of color are politically isolated and left to fend for themselves without support from organized labor or from the white majority, their frustration sometimes explodes into disorganized, individual acts of random violence which then makes the community even more vulnerable to police attacks.

This has happened in both the U.S. and Europe.

For example, authorities ruthlessly repressed the 2011 rebellion in London’s Tottenham immigrant neighborhood. Over 3100 arrests were made after a fatal shooting by police of a local resident triggered large protests.

I maintain that Tottenham residents were more endangered and police assault against them more escalated because they were isolated politically and socially from the rest of British society and particularly from the rest of the working class and its organizations.

This partitioning mirrors precisely the situation of people of color in the States.

Without question, the same sharp decline of divided U.S. labor awaits the European working class if their unity is further eroded.

Stand Up & Stand Guard
Do not expect America’s elite to change their stripes and offer a prescription for reducing police violence.

We are the ones who must change – our solidarity, our consciousness and our organization must be strengthened to end the segregation of those most oppressed among us who suffer the severest forms of police repression for rebelling against conditions few would consider livable.

There are vivid examples in our history of how militant labor fought to stay united against policies designed to pick off more vulnerable sections of the working class.

For example, Teamsters in Minneapolis during the 1930s depression patrolled the streets to move evicted poor families with their belongings strewn on the sidewalk back into their homes. Again, very conscious of being divided, the same union actively worked to unite with the unemployed, joining mass picket lines of the demanding more jobs.

Unions on the east coast and the midwest along with the International Longshore union (ILWU) on the west coast during the same period took similar militant solidarity actions in support of victims of racist courtroom frame-ups and physical assaults, all designed to keep the working class united.

With this legacy in mind, ILWU Local 10 members in the 1970s stood 24-hour guard outside the home of a Black family in Concord, Calif. that was being terrorized by Ku Klux Klan cross burnings on their lawn.

Continuing this honorable tradition, the same union conducted a May 1, 2015 shut down of the Port of Oakland in support of “Black Lives Matter.”

And, in my own city, the San Francisco Labor Council recently supported mass picketing of homes hoping to prevent “predatory loan” evictions that targeted homeowners in the city’s besieged Black community.

These are singular acts of political courage that reveal the true heart of labor solidarity. But, they are the exception, not the rule.

Contingents of organized labor should take their example and stand up and stand guard whenever people of color experience repression that otherwise would surely never be tolerated by whites.

In fact, labor in America has made its greatest accomplishments only when the gaping racial divide was breeched such as during the massively successful steel and auto union organizing drives in the 1930s.

Protection and justice for a minority can only be achieved through action by the majority, united by a common sense of fairness under the time-honored emblem of “an injury to one, is an injury to all.”

To do otherwise is to limit us all from making social gains denied us by a power structure contemptuously looking down upon a people divided as they imperially tower over us all.
 
ABOUT THE AUTHOR
 Carl Finamore is Machinist Local 1781 delegate to the San Francisco Labor Council, AFL-CIO. He can be reached at local1781@yahoo.com

One might also make the case that police kill more here because US criminals tend to be really well armed these days (much better than just about anywhere else), and that the streets are full of crazy people with guns, the same people we'd have locked up in the loony bin when I was a kid.

The race issue is a valid issue, sure. I do not disagree there. But... you should admit, at the same time, that the police constantly deal with organized gangs in our urban ghettos who have lots of guns and kill people everyday, and that the violence by criminals also has a racial bias.

And just because there is discrimination and profiling by cops, that does not mean that the "clueless white people" who think "anti-white discrimination" is going on are delusional. It's legislated, and its very visible to white working class people.

This article is another attempt to make a complex problem really simple. One-sided, in my view, as all Greanville Post articles are.

What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

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Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2018, 06:21:02 AM »
This article is another attempt to make a complex problem really simple. One-sided, in my view, as all Greanville Post articles are.

What, and WSJ articles aren't "one-sided" also?  ZH is not one sided?  Brandon "Lexington & Concord" Smith isn't one sided?  Jimbo Quinn is not "one sided"?  There is no requirement that a blog or website or newzpaper has to present "both sides" equally.  That is the Both Siderism that Surly complains about all the time.

I don't agree with Patrice Greanville all the time, but he can present his POV as he sees fit.  When you own a website, you can do that.  That's why I run the Diner.

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Offline Eddie

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Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2018, 06:22:48 AM »
No problem. And I'll keep pointing out the bias, if you don't mind.
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Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2018, 06:29:25 AM »
No problem. And I'll keep pointing out the bias, if you don't mind.

I don't mind, as long as it is done Politely with no Ad Hom:icon_sunny:  Otherwise, I will squash it like a bug. lol.

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Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2018, 10:04:50 AM »
And just because there is discrimination and profiling by cops, that does not mean that the "clueless white people" who think "anti-white discrimination" is going on are delusional. It's legislated, and its very visible to white working class people.

I would suggest that this phenomenon looks very different depending on the amount of melanin one is wearing. Gangs notwithstanding, I'll bet you a Philando Castile and raise you two Alton Sterlings that white men do not have to worry about summary execution by cop as black men.

Race has been a convenient way to divide and conquer in this country ever since the aftermath of Bacon's rebellion in this country. Nathaniel Bacon was a Virginia landowner who wanted the British to take hostile moves against the neighboring Indians so he (and others) could expand their lands. Gov. Berkeley demurred, declining to buy himself a fresh new Indian war on the western frontier, form which he and his cronies would not directly benefit, and for which he'd have to answer with the home office. So Bacon organized his own militia, consisting of white and black indentured servants and enslaved black people, who joined in exchange for freedom, and attacked nearby tribes.

IN the fullness of time, Bacon died of a fever, the rebellion was suppressed. But Virginia’s wealthy planters carefully noted that a rebel militia that united white and black servants and slaves had destroyed the Jamestown. These swells and grandees  were deeply fearful of the multiracial alliance of indentured servants and slaves. The last thing they wanted was more uprisings of a similar type.

To protect their superior status and economic position, the planters abandoned their heavy reliance on indentured servants in favor of the importation of more black slaves. And differences in Virginia laws between  “white” and “black” inhabitants began to appear. By permanently enslaving Virginians of African descent and giving poor white indentured servants and farmers some new rights and status, they hoped to separate the two groups and make it less likely that they would unite again in rebellion. They enacted laws decreeing that people of African descent were hereditary slaves, and thus property... so when Roger Taney said in Dred Scott that "a negro has no rights which a white man was bound to respect," he had 150 years of English and colonial law at his back.

Which is why, hundreds of years later, President Lyndon B. Johnson could say, "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." Johnson, as a son of Texas, understood the politics of racism from the inside, saw it in part as a ploy to divide and conquer.

Then as now.
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Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2018, 10:42:49 AM »
And just because there is discrimination and profiling by cops, that does not mean that the "clueless white people" who think "anti-white discrimination" is going on are delusional. It's legislated, and its very visible to white working class people.

I would suggest that this phenomenon looks very different depending on the amount of melanin one is wearing. Gangs notwithstanding, I'll bet you a Philando Castile and raise you two Alton Sterlings that white men do not have to worry about summary execution by cop as black men.

Race has been a convenient way to divide and conquer in this country ever since the aftermath of Bacon's rebellion in this country. Nathaniel Bacon was a Virginia landowner who wanted the British to take hostile moves against the neighboring Indians so he (and others) could expand their lands. Gov. Berkeley demurred, declining to buy himself a fresh new Indian war on the western frontier, form which he and his cronies would not directly benefit, and for which he'd have to answer with the home office. So Bacon organized his own militia, consisting of white and black indentured servants and enslaved black people, who joined in exchange for freedom, and attacked nearby tribes.

IN the fullness of time, Bacon died of a fever, the rebellion was suppressed. But Virginia’s wealthy planters carefully noted that a rebel militia that united white and black servants and slaves had destroyed the Jamestown. These swells and grandees  were deeply fearful of the multiracial alliance of indentured servants and slaves. The last thing they wanted was more uprisings of a similar type.

To protect their superior status and economic position, the planters abandoned their heavy reliance on indentured servants in favor of the importation of more black slaves. And differences in Virginia laws between  “white” and “black” inhabitants began to appear. By permanently enslaving Virginians of African descent and giving poor white indentured servants and farmers some new rights and status, they hoped to separate the two groups and make it less likely that they would unite again in rebellion. They enacted laws decreeing that people of African descent were hereditary slaves, and thus property... so when Roger Taney said in Dred Scott that "a negro has no rights which a white man was bound to respect," he had 150 years of English and colonial law at his back.

Which is why, hundreds of years later, President Lyndon B. Johnson could say, "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." Johnson, as a son of Texas, understood the politics of racism from the inside, saw it in part as a ploy to divide and conquer.

Then as now.

As usual, you're conveniently missing my point.

The point is that violence against black people by police (or by white people)  does not, in itself, mean that white people are not sometimes discriminated against by a system that has been engaged in active social engineering designed to level the playing field (since 1965), so that minorities are not themselves discriminated against in the job market. That article makes it seem like they're mutually exclusive phenomena. They most certainly are NOT.

Check out how many job openings there are for VP's of Diversity and Inclusion. It's a growth market. Hundreds of positions available, apparently. The link below is just one of many such links. I'm sure it isn't completely accurate, but there are many others like it, and I'm persuaded the fake jobs are out there for the right minority applicants.


https://www.indeed.com/q-Vice-President-Diversity-jobs.html



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Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2018, 05:33:31 PM »
Quote
As usual, you're conveniently missing my point.

Yeah, I'm always missing your point, because it's based on structural racism. Why don't you try taking mine. You refuse to acknowledge or concede that you benefit from melanin deprivation, pointing to your own hardscrabble roots (Nobody ever gave me nothin!, uttered as sincerely as the most abject Trumpanzee).

Guess what, ace? All of us worked hard. No one here is living off trust funds. All I ever inherited was a work ethic. If you're born white and male in America, you're born on third base, no matter how poor your circumstances. Failure to get that means a failure of both empathy and imagination.

Tell me what the bleeding fuck job listings for VPs of Diversity hoo-hah have to do with anything that I wrote.
Feel free to go third rail on this shit, but you'll do it denying 300 years of history.
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Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2018, 06:30:20 PM »
You can't speak the honest truth anymore and not be labeled a racist, can you?  I have no real agenda here other than to reject simplistic thinking and dogma.

I'm not talking about white pride or white supremacy, or white domination of downtrodden brown people. I'm talking about winners and losers, and how the attempt at legislated racial equality has benefited some poor people at the expense of other poor people.

None of these groups was ever powerful. The poor whites and the poor blacks and the poor immigrants have been at each others throats all along. It was true in Jim Crow days and it's very obviously still true. We haven't solved it, but we've created a ton of new resentment.

I'm talking about how our country, through a well-intentioned experiment in achieving racial justice, has created a system that was quickly gamed into one where points are awarded for being in a special group. It started with blacks, then it was women, and then native Americans, and now gays.....everybody says they want to be special so they can get EQUAL rights...but it really means so they can get some special consideration because of their particular group.....some more points in the game.

But you can't keep going down that road, it leads to an absurd conclusion.

Pretty soon the only people working at the Post Office are Muslim black lesbians who are asylum seekers from Timbuktu.

This is a problem. It isn't so much a problem for me. I'm doing fine. It's a problem for laid-off construction workers shooting up fentanyl in the trailer park and wearing MAGA hats.

If you wonder why there is a groundswell of support for an authoritarian, racist POTUS, and we why stand at the brink of fascism, consider that what I'm trying to talk about might be part of the equation.

I'm not denying structural racism. Nor am I denying garden variety racism, or saying I don't think people should be treated fairly, or even that all whites aren't born on third base (although I know better). I'm saying that what we have now is a failed experiment in racial nuclear fusion, and it's apt to reach a critical mass soon.

Ignore this, all you well meaning liberal Americans, at your own peril.
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Offline monsta666

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Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2018, 07:06:30 PM »
Eddie I don't know why it is so difficult to understand that white people are granted certain advantages. Look at the boards of any major corporation and it will be dominated by white men. This is not some coincidence or due to the fact white men are the hardest workers in the planet. They come from a position of privilege so they get more opportunities for progression. All things being equal they tend to get the job over women or other ethnic minorities. Sure there are exceptions but quite often the exceptions are newsworthy because of the fact it does not commonly happen. Now saying all that one cannot diminish the success of a white person because having a high paying job is difficult regardless of what race or sex. But what can't be denied is that we do not live in a society where equal opportunities are afforded to all. People may have opinions on the matter and the overall trend is generally in the right direction but we are not even close to the point we can say society is fair. Yes some of the measures taken can seem unfair but I have a hard time imagining many scenarios where white people are at a disadvantage. It is far easier to find statistics that back the theory that minorities struggle to get higher paying jobs than the other way round which leads me to conclude that some of these stories are overblown.

Now another thing that has not been mentioned too much but is significant when it comes to white privilege is it does not operate simply on creating extra opportunities; it impacts your relationship with the police and criminal justice system. If you are black you are more likely to be arrested for the same crime and when sentenced the chances of being found guilty are greater1 and the terms served are more severe when you are black2. Plus even if after incarceration the chances of finding subsequent employment is lower if you are black. All these factors points towards racism being systemic in nature and since this can be proven with statistics is not a matter of opinion; it is a matter of fact which shows that race does matter.

Offline Eddie

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Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2018, 04:27:15 AM »
Eddie I don't know why it is so difficult to understand that white people are granted certain advantages. Look at the boards of any major corporation and it will be dominated by white men. This is not some coincidence or due to the fact white men are the hardest workers in the planet. They come from a position of privilege so they get more opportunities for progression. All things being equal they tend to get the job over women or other ethnic minorities. Sure there are exceptions but quite often the exceptions are newsworthy because of the fact it does not commonly happen. Now saying all that one cannot diminish the success of a white person because having a high paying job is difficult regardless of what race or sex. But what can't be denied is that we do not live in a society where equal opportunities are afforded to all. People may have opinions on the matter and the overall trend is generally in the right direction but we are not even close to the point we can say society is fair. Yes some of the measures taken can seem unfair but I have a hard time imagining many scenarios where white people are at a disadvantage. It is far easier to find statistics that back the theory that minorities struggle to get higher paying jobs than the other way round which leads me to conclude that some of these stories are overblown.

Now another thing that has not been mentioned too much but is significant when it comes to white privilege is it does not operate simply on creating extra opportunities; it impacts your relationship with the police and criminal justice system. If you are black you are more likely to be arrested for the same crime and when sentenced the chances of being found guilty are greater1 and the terms served are more severe when you are black2. Plus even if after incarceration the chances of finding subsequent employment is lower if you are black. All these factors points towards racism being systemic in nature and since this can be proven with statistics is not a matter of opinion; it is a matter of fact which shows that race does matter.

Monsta, with all due respect, this is not about white privilege. I recognize that what you and Surly call white privilege does exist.

But boards of corporations, racist make-up notwithstanding, are not where Trump is building his base. None of the white people impacted by our race policies here are candidates to sit on corporate boards. White privilege does not flow equally to all whites.

There is a type of glass ceiling racism in the corporate world, which greatly involves privilege, but it isn't there just  because those people are white.

Those people are not the ones who will sign up to be willing Nazi storm troopers.

The storm troopers  are going to come from the white underclass, which are also the ones who are embracing the open racism and racial divisiveness that has reared its ugly head in the past three or four years.

And this problem, while more visible here, perhaps, is not unknown where you live either.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/jul/15/bbc-racist-diversity-white-working-class-tory-mp

Smaller pie, with those at the top getting a bigger and bigger piece, while trying to put a little grease on the squeakiest wheel. Blacks have been a squeaky wheel, as have other would-be special groups. But now the working-class whites, who are a much bigger wheel demographically, are getting very squeaky.

As what's left of the pie gets smaller and smaller, the less a minor grease job works. If those at the bottom are all in crisis, then they will fight among themselves, and push and shove...the white working class is ready for a new Hitler. It might not be Trump, but they will find one.

« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 05:42:23 AM by Eddie »
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Offline Agent Graves

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Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2018, 07:03:03 AM »
What you seem to be missing Eddie, is that the only demographic with a declining life expectancy - po white - might not get to be on a Fortune 500 board of directors, but is still far less likely to get shot by a racist cop.
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Offline Surly1

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Re: 👮‍♂️ Why Police Kill So Often
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2018, 07:49:02 AM »
Quote from: Eddie
I recognize that what you and Surly call white privilege does exist.

But boards of corporations, racist make-up notwithstanding, are not where Trump is building his base. None of the white people impacted by our race policies here are candidates to sit on corporate boards. White privilege does not flow equally to all whites.

There is a type of glass ceiling racism in the corporate world, which greatly involves privilege, but it isn't there just  because those people are white.

FWIW, Eddie, I think what I see as white privilege DOES flow equally to white people. I confers a certain freedom from, say, summary execution. Which seems to be worth more and more these days.

I think what you are talking about is CLASS. And it is that distinction from which the elites try mightily to distract us, using race as a primary cudgel.

As soon as people talk about reassessing priorities or interfering with the neoliberal order (privatization), they get demonized. They've come hammer-and-tong for Ocasio-Cortez,  the Washington Post’s provides plenty of negative coverage of  Ben Jealous, running against Republican Larry Hogan for Maryland Governor. And on the border, the State Department is denying passports to a substantial number of Latinos with official U.S. birth certificates. Neither you nor I is going to suffer that indignity. Every time a common sense idea opposing the continued looting is floated, the elites nod and smile, and their hired stenographers spring into action. It is as predicable as sunrise.

The elites will be perfectly content for most of us to die off, especially after the machines are in place to assure their comfort.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 08:01:41 AM by Surly1 »
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

 

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