AuthorTopic: Civil War Litigation Thread  (Read 8976 times)

Offline Eddie

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Civil War Litigation Thread
« on: October 08, 2018, 01:50:38 PM »

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I don't consider the DOC to be any kind of really legitimate organization.It's a club for women whose ancestors fought in the Civil War for the South, and at one time it might have been considered to be some kind of tie to an idealized genteel Southern past, but any connection to reality has been gone for a long, long time, and I'm not sure why any modern woman would join, except perhaps to make her grandmother happy, or maybe David Duke.

But, with that said, it never ceases to amaze me how far these "woke" people will go to vilify what is now nothing more than a silly caricature.

Let's start by debunking the first assertion. That is, that the DOC is or was an adjunct of the Klan.

Laura Martin Rose was no doubt a Klan supporter. I expect her father AND her  husband, if she was married, were both in the Klan. That doesn't make the DOC part of the Klan, any more than being a Republican makes someone a fascist, although there is no doubt some overlap there too.

And I don't see that the DOC even published that Kiddie Klan Klassic. It was published by the L.C. Graham Company in NOLA, which published all manner of racist crap in the late 19th and early 20th century. If DOC money was involved, I expect it was local money, and not that of the larger organization.

New Orleans didn't make it through 1865 without its first post-war race riot, and it's been a bastion of racism right up until now. If that has anything to do with the DOC, it's a fairly tangential connection. The contention the author makes, that the Daughters of the Confederacy is, or ever has been the "women's auxillary of the Klan", is not supported by the facts. It's pure speculation, but it's presented as if it were fact.

Do they get tax breaks? Sure they do, just like every other non-profit in the country. Big effin' deal. So does Planned Parenthood, and the AARP.

At one time they raised money to put up statues of Confederate heroes. Those statues were of these women's own grandfathers. Pardon them for wanting to glorify their service. Many of them died in the war.

The reason people today don't accept that the war was not fought to preserve slavery is because it wasn't nearly that simple. To start with, prior to the war starting, Lincoln himself had no intention ending slavery in the existing slave states. The national argument was about whether slavery would be legal in the new western states. These SJW journalists are as ignorant about history as they are about evolutionary biology.

Less than 5% of Southerners owned ANY slaves in 1860. So does that mean 95% of the Confederates went to war and almost a half million of them died to support an institution they didn't even derive the least bit of benefit from? Get real.

And just because the fiery rhetoric of the secession documents of the Confederacy (which were written by the most radical people in the South) said the war was about preserving slavery, that doesn't mean that it wasn't about several other fairly contentious issues as well.

The major impact of the war wasn't really even the end of slavery, which would have no doubt ended anyway, as it did most everywhere else on earth, without a bloody civil war.

The most lasting effect of the US Civil War was the consolidation of complete federal government political tyranny over the states, which impacts everyone alive today, not just white people, or Southerners. That has to be the most overlooked, yet most profound, effect that the war ever had.





 
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 03:36:10 PM by Eddie »
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Offline RE

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Re: Re:Hit Piece On The Daughters Of The Confederacy
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2018, 02:20:32 PM »
Less than 5% of Southerners owned ANY slaves in 1860. So does that mean 95% of the Confederates went to war and almost a half million of them died to support an institution they didn't even derive the least bit of benefit from? Get real.

But they DID derive economic benefit from Slavery!

First of all, many served as Overseers on somebody else's Plantation.  They got paid, the slaves did not.  The Profit for the operation came from the Slave Labor.

Even if they weren't directly employed on a plantation, they may have been Teamsters driving the Cotton and Tobacco to market in horse-drawn wagons.  Again, they get paid because the operation is profitable with Slave Labor.  So do the middlemen, the wholesalers and retailers of the products produced by the slaves.

The entire economy was rooted in slavery.  Everyone who was not a slave got some benefit from that, unless of course they were unemployed.

Does this mean southern boys went to war to protect slavery and their economic system?  Of course not.  I'm sure they didn't grasp these connections.  Mostly they went to war because their Leaders (mainly the Plantation Owners) told them they had to and Conscripted them.

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« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 02:49:35 PM by RE »
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Offline azozeo

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Re: Re:Hit Piece On The Daughters Of The Confederacy
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2018, 02:36:43 PM »
Less than 5% of Southerners owned ANY slaves in 1860. So does that mean 95% of the Confederates went to war and almost a half million of them died to support an institution they didn't even derive the least bit of benefit from? Get real.

But they DID derive economic benefit from Slavery!

First of all, many served as Overseers on somebody else's Plantation.  They got paid, the slaves did not.  The Profit for the operation came from the Slave Labor.

Even if they weren't directly employed on a plantation, they may have been Teamsters driving the Cotton and Tobacco to market in horse-drawn wagons.  Again, they get paid because the operation is profitable with Slave Labor.  So do the middlemen, the wholesalers and retailers of the products produced by the slaves.

The entire economy was rooted in slavery.  Everyone who was not a slave got some benefit from that, unless of course they were unemployed.

Does this mean southern boys went to war to protect slavery and their economic system?  Of course not.  I'm sure they didn't grasp these connections.  Mostly they went to war because their Leaders told them they had to and Conscripted them.

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Offline Eddie

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Re: Re:Hit Piece On The Daughters Of The Confederacy
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2018, 02:59:14 PM »
First of all, many served as Overseers on somebody else's Plantation

I think the actual truth of that is that some few whites worked in various capacities on larger plantations in a variety of skilled jobs, but that "overseer" was not the primary job description of most of them. It wasn't like Gone With The Wind. Maybe it was in a few places, like the Tidewater.

But aside from that, a good part of the population were just plain subsistence farmers, and they weren't participating in the slave economy AT ALL.  Subsistence farmers, like my father's people, had very little need for, or connection with any kind of money based economy at all. "Forty acres and mule" started with white people, not blacks.


The entire economy was rooted in slavery.  Everyone who was not a slave got some benefit from that, unless of course they were unemployed.



Actually that's bullshit.

MOST people WERE unemployed in the South in 1860, in the modern sense of that word. The big plantations were the "Big Ag" of that day and time, but most of the economy was people scratching out a living out of a garden and raising a few animals. The idea that these Southerners were beneficiaries of slavery is pretty questionable, in my view.




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Re: Re:Hit Piece On The Daughters Of The Confederacy
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2018, 03:08:57 PM »
My guess would be that those people (besides the Owner of the Plantation) who were directly connected to the Slave Economy served as the Officers in the Confederate Army.  Subsistence Farmes were the ones who got conscripted as Cannon Fodder.

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Re: Re:Hit Piece On The Daughters Of The Confederacy
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2018, 03:33:07 PM »
Not a bad guess, but the truth is slightly different. There was a war with Mexico in 1846, and so when the Civil War came, almost all the officers on both sides were the military veterans from that war.

My maternal gg grandfather was the second son of a big plantation owner, but he was still definitely just cannon fodder, with Lee at South Mountain in Maryland, in what was the very first big campaign of the war. His brother-in-law, a Mexican War vet, mustered in as a Captain and was promoted to Major. He made it all the way to Appomattox. Of the original unit of over a thousand, only seventy-odd men made it that far.

Many men in Lee's army in the fall of 1862 even then didn't even have shoes, and they had nothing to eat for the last week of their lives except for green corn they took from the local farms they passed, which gave most of them terrible diarrhea. And this was early in the war, in September of 1862.

I don't how my paternal gg grandfather died, but the was not a young man when he died late in the war the winter of 1864. He served in Texas, maybe on the frontier instead of the actual war. Unlike the other one, his bones were laid to rest near his home.
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Re: Re:Hit Piece On The Daughters Of The Confederacy
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2018, 03:57:26 PM »
Not a bad guess, but the truth is slightly different. There was a war with Mexico in 1846, and so when the Civil War came, almost all the officers on both sides were the military veterans from that war.

That's true for the Texas contingent, but how many soldiers from South Carolina served in the Mexican war?

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Re: Re:Hit Piece On The Daughters Of The Confederacy
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2018, 04:01:20 PM »
I find the civil war fascinating because it comes at a time of massive technological change. I sometimes wonder how long it took all those Mexican war veterans to say" oh fuck what have we done". Between railroads ,rifled barrels, the minie bullet, telegraphs, it must have been a terrifying new level of shitty. The intensity and "efficiency" of warfare was amplified making it possible for all out meat grinder. All those new toys came together.
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Re: Re:Hit Piece On The Daughters Of The Confederacy
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2018, 04:02:24 PM »

The reason people today don't accept that the war was not fought to preserve slavery is because it wasn't nearly that simple. To start with, prior to the war starting, Lincoln himself had no intention ending slavery in the existing slave states. The national argument was about whether slavery would be legal in the new western states. These SJW journalists are as ignorant about history as they are about evolutionary biology.

Less than 5% of Southerners owned ANY slaves in 1860. So does that mean 95% of the Confederates went to war and almost a half million of them died to support an institution they didn't even derive the least bit of benefit from? Get real.

And just because the fiery rhetoric of the secession documents of the Confederacy (which were written by the most radical people in the South) said the war was about preserving slavery, that doesn't mean that it wasn't about several other fairly contentious issues as well.

The major impact of the war wasn't really even the end of slavery, which would have no doubt ended anyway, as it did most everywhere else on earth, without a bloody civil war.

 [/color]

For fuck's sake.

Are we really going to re-litigate the Civil War again for the umpteeth time?

Very clever of you to attempt (unsuccessfully ) to inoculate yourself against the Cornerstone Speech and the constitutions of the states that comprised the confederacy, which I have adduced here previously. And which call you out dead to rights. Which makes the motives of the seditionists and traitors absolutely clear. And which put the lie to your assertion above.  Holders of privilege, property and prerogatives are always happy to fight the current war down to your last son.

Interresting that you don't want the words produced by the men who enbcouraged your forebears to die on their behalf to be used as part of an indictment. Like disqualifying a murderer's confession.

OF COURSE only five per cent of whites in the Confederacy owned slaves. Strap yourself in for this reality bomb:

THEY WERE THE ONES WITH THE MONEY. THEY COULD AFFORD THEM


The 95 per cent of seditionists who took up arms against the Americans did so for the reasons all young man flock to the banner of their country: "duty, honor, country," and all that other manipulative claptrap the elites use in every generation to manipulate the proles, and the same sodden bullshit Trump will invoke to urge the next generation to Victory on Mars.

Because Grant attempted to implement Lincoln's "soft piece," we are afforded the luxury of endless justification for treason on the part of Confederate rebels. Had 3,000 Confederate politicians and senior officers swung from gibbets, we might not have to suffer the promiscuous rewriting of history by devotees to the so-called "Lost Cause" back in the day, and by Republiconfederates today.
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Re: Re:Hit Piece On The Daughters Of The Confederacy
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2018, 04:19:39 PM »
I find the civil war fascinating because it comes at a time of massive technological change. I sometimes wonder how long it took all those Mexican war veterans to say" oh fuck what have we done". Between railroads ,rifled barrels, the minie bullet, telegraphs, it must have been a terrifying new level of shitty. The intensity and "efficiency" of warfare was amplified making it possible for all out meat grinder. All those new toys came together.
Viscous but fascinating.

In essence, it was a War between Industrialist Elite in the North and Agrarian Elite in the South.  The Industrialists won.  The Southerners only had Human Slaves.  The Industrialists has 22 Billion Energy Slaves.  No contest.

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Re: Re:Hit Piece On The Daughters Of The Confederacy
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2018, 04:24:30 PM »
I find the civil war fascinating because it comes at a time of massive technological change. I sometimes wonder how long it took all those Mexican war veterans to say" oh fuck what have we done". Between railroads ,rifled barrels, the minie bullet, telegraphs, it must have been a terrifying new level of shitty. The intensity and "efficiency" of warfare was amplified making it possible for all out meat grinder. All those new toys came together.
Viscous but fascinating.

Absolutely. The Spencer repeating rifle alone was responsible for a Union delaying action that was an important action on the first day of Gettysburg. John Buford's unmounted cavalry used Spencer carbines to create a rate of fire disproportionately higher than the Confederate force they were opposing, and bought the Union troops coming up from the south valuable time. The Civil War also ushered in the Gatling Gun, which had minimal impact on the Civil War but rather more at Wounded Knee.
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Re: Re:Hit Piece On The Daughters Of The Confederacy
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2018, 04:34:08 PM »
The Civil War also ushered in the Gatling Gun, which had minimal impact on the Civil War but rather more at Wounded Knee.

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Offline Eddie

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Re: Re:Hit Piece On The Daughters Of The Confederacy
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2018, 05:28:14 PM »

The reason people today don't accept that the war was not fought to preserve slavery is because it wasn't nearly that simple. To start with, prior to the war starting, Lincoln himself had no intention ending slavery in the existing slave states. The national argument was about whether slavery would be legal in the new western states. These SJW journalists are as ignorant about history as they are about evolutionary biology.

Less than 5% of Southerners owned ANY slaves in 1860. So does that mean 95% of the Confederates went to war and almost a half million of them died to support an institution they didn't even derive the least bit of benefit from? Get real.

And just because the fiery rhetoric of the secession documents of the Confederacy (which were written by the most radical people in the South) said the war was about preserving slavery, that doesn't mean that it wasn't about several other fairly contentious issues as well.

The major impact of the war wasn't really even the end of slavery, which would have no doubt ended anyway, as it did most everywhere else on earth, without a bloody civil war.

 [/color]

For fuck's sake.

Are we really going to re-litigate the Civil War again for the umpteeth time?

Very clever of you to attempt (unsuccessfully ) to inoculate yourself against the Cornerstone Speech and the constitutions of the states that comprised the confederacy, which I have adduced here previously. And which call you out dead to rights. Which makes the motives of the seditionists and traitors absolutely clear. And which put the lie to your assertion above.  Holders of privilege, property and prerogatives are always happy to fight the current war down to your last son.

Interresting that you don't want the words produced by the men who enbcouraged your forebears to die on their behalf to be used as part of an indictment. Like disqualifying a murderer's confession.

OF COURSE only five per cent of whites in the Confederacy owned slaves. Strap yourself in for this reality bomb:

THEY WERE THE ONES WITH THE MONEY. THEY COULD AFFORD THEM


The 95 per cent of seditionists who took up arms against the Americans did so for the reasons all young man flock to the banner of their country: "duty, honor, country," and all that other manipulative claptrap the elites use in every generation to manipulate the proles, and the same sodden bullshit Trump will invoke to urge the next generation to Victory on Mars.

Because Grant attempted to implement Lincoln's "soft piece," we are afforded the luxury of endless justification for treason on the part of Confederate rebels. Had 3,000 Confederate politicians and senior officers swung from gibbets, we might not have to suffer the promiscuous rewriting of history by devotees to the so-called "Lost Cause" back in the day, and by Republiconfederates today.

Whoa, dude. I never used to write anything about the Civil War here or anywhere else. I feel dragged into it.

Frankly, I grew up without ever learning much detail about the war, even though I took American History in college and read stuff like the Cattons and the usual reading list from back in the day.....but let's face it.....you only get so much from a one semester freshman survey course.

I Have educated myself a little more  over the last several years, because I wanted to get some idea of the real story, and not just the mythology. I don't claim to be a real expert. But I know made up crap when I read it.

You might remember that my comment was directed at debunking a piece of garbage that some biased black SJW wrote that showed up on a feed YOU reposted here. It was simply an honest response to what I considered a fairly reprehensible misrepresentation of a dumb Southern women's club.

I offered a comment, because the piece was EXTREMELY biased and failed to make any of its points, yet it no doubt got taken as gospel by most so-called educated liberal people. That pisses me off.

I don't want to refight the war. It wasn't ever MY war. It's always been ancient history.

But these modern bullshit artists who try to take the words  of one admittedly racist writer from 1914 and twist that into some kind of completely imagined widespread racist conspiracy....that shit deserves to be called out for what it is, which is pure propaganda.
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Offline RE

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Re: Re:Hit Piece On The Daughters Of The Confederacy
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2018, 05:42:23 PM »
Whoa, dude. I never used to write anything about the Civil War here or anywhere else. I feel dragged into it.

I don't think you were "dragged" into it.  You started writing about the War of Northern Aggression when you went to visit your relatives in SC at the 2nd Convocation.  That was your own choosing.  Then you got riled up by the Statue Demolishing of the Dixie "War Heros" and wrote your objections to that.  Surly then felt it necessary to counter your spin with his own spin.

It just evolved over time.  Now you gotta deal with that.

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Re: Re:Hit Piece On The Daughters Of The Confederacy
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2018, 06:20:51 PM »
What I gotta deal with is a bunch of ignorant modern people lying about history in pursuit of their modern agendas of social justice.

I think I've been really clear about that, and that's why I write what I write.

My own family history has some bearing on my story, but I have never lied about them or made them out to be anything other than what they were.

I actually started to get the real story, when I read about Lincoln.....the real Lincoln....you know the one who exiled a US congressman to Canada...and who locked up a bunch of people for the duration of the war without any resort to habeus corpus.

That Lincoln, not the Great Emancipator, the martyred Lincoln all the ignorant people worship for all the wrong reasons. Lincoln actually talked about sending the freed slaves back to Africa. That was his first choice. I seldom hear that mentioned in these SJW articles.

As I said, the really most important impact of the US Civil War was that it castrated the rights of individual states, once and for all. This is not even taught in the history books, so important is it that it be completely ignored and forgotten.
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