AuthorTopic: Civil War Litigation Thread  (Read 1884 times)

Online Ashvin

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Re: The American Civil War didn't end. And Trump is a Confederate president
« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2018, 07:45:45 PM »
This is a very typical PC Police article that tries (and fails) to make the case that everything that's wrong with the world today a direct consequence of capitalism and the white male patriarchy. It's a popular sentiment in some quarters, but it's a real reach, when it comes to proof.

This is Spotting Ideologically-Driven "Analysis" 101 - if it attributes a wide range of complicated phenomenon to one or two causal mechanisms, then that's what it is. Realizing this isn't "bothsiderism", it's a desire to ignore ANY side which is too lazy or too malicious to avoid that dangerous ploy. It's especially dangerous when the "causal" mechanisms identified allow us to easily impose collective guilt on others.

Naah.

Calling Rebecca Solnit "lazy or malicious" is quite a reach. You have to be wearing ideological blinders to ignore the veracity of her argument. Which you are, and which you do.
But it's always a pleasure to watch the enthusiasm with which you carry water for the white male patriarchy, which is clearly in such need of being defended.

No, RE, he ain't sayin' shit, but he's trying to make sure he looks reeeeeal good while he's not sayin' it.

It's really not a reach, because everyone has their moments of laziness and maliciousness, no matter how well-educated or read. Everyone. Yes that includes me.

The world is a fucking complex place, and sometimes it's just A LOT easier to go with the ideological framework than trying to dissect it all over the course of years and decades. Especially if you are responsible for pushing out content on a weekly or daily basis.

But nothing good comes easy and that's no excuse. There is no white male patriarchy for me to carry water for, and when you think about it enough, the very concept becomes incoherent. But I know it's a hell of a lot easier, cognitively and culturally, for people to pretend that it not only exists, but it has been the driving force of human history for thousands of years.

Sorry, no.

Offline Surly1

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Re: The American Civil War didn't end. And Trump is a Confederate president
« Reply #46 on: November 08, 2018, 02:11:37 AM »
This is a very typical PC Police article that tries (and fails) to make the case that everything that's wrong with the world today a direct consequence of capitalism and the white male patriarchy. It's a popular sentiment in some quarters, but it's a real reach, when it comes to proof.

This is Spotting Ideologically-Driven "Analysis" 101 - if it attributes a wide range of complicated phenomenon to one or two causal mechanisms, then that's what it is. Realizing this isn't "bothsiderism", it's a desire to ignore ANY side which is too lazy or too malicious to avoid that dangerous ploy. It's especially dangerous when the "causal" mechanisms identified allow us to easily impose collective guilt on others.

Naah.

Calling Rebecca Solnit "lazy or malicious" is quite a reach. You have to be wearing ideological blinders to ignore the veracity of her argument. Which you are, and which you do.
But it's always a pleasure to watch the enthusiasm with which you carry water for the white male patriarchy, which is clearly in such need of being defended.

No, RE, he ain't sayin' shit, but he's trying to make sure he looks reeeeeal good while he's not sayin' it.

It's really not a reach, because everyone has their moments of laziness and maliciousness, no matter how well-educated or read. Everyone. Yes that includes me.

This is just so much sophistry, or wordplay. Utterly meaningless, and completely unresponsive to the point.

The world is a fucking complex place, and sometimes it's just A LOT easier to go with the ideological framework than trying to dissect it all over the course of years and decades. Especially if you are responsible for pushing out content on a weekly or daily basis.

Subtle ad hom. RE may be too drunk to see it, but I'm not. It must be nice to be responsible for nothing but pissing on the work of others. A good gig.


There is no white male patriarchy for me to carry water for, and when you think about it enough, the very concept becomes incoherent. But I know it's a hell of a lot easier, cognitively and culturally, for people to pretend that it not only exists, but it has been the driving force of human history for thousands of years.

This statement is delusional on its face. In the same way some claim they can't prove that God exists, but know evil when they see it, the works of the "white male patriarchy" are evident for all to see,from the recent sets of voters suppression efforts (delivering yet another set of undeserved electoral wins to Republicans), to exclusionary rules for private club memberships. If you really believe what you've written above, you're crazy.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline Surly1

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Re: Civil War Litigation Thread
« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2018, 02:13:58 AM »
States rights, down with the despot Lincoln.

Quite right. "States' rights" to preserve the legality of private ownership of human beings.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Online RE

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Re: The American Civil War didn't end. And Trump is a Confederate president
« Reply #48 on: November 08, 2018, 05:10:03 AM »
Subtle ad hom. RE may be too drunk to see it, but I'm not. It must be nice to be responsible for nothing but pissing on the work of others. A good gig.

I'm not THAT wasted.  I almost couldn't get out of bed this early morning due to a combination of a major hangover and my bed setup being messed up (gotta work on fixing this today while still sober).  It took 20 fucking minutes just to figure out how to get my crippled ass out of bed!)  However, drunk or sober I can read Watson's prose for comprehension.  He's pushing the limits here, and I am going to give him a piece of my mind here pretty soon if he doesn't wise up.  I'll light it up once again like Vietnam on a Summer's Day in 1969.  I am never so wasted I can't smell that smell.  It's the smell of death, and it surrounds Watson.

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Online Ashvin

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Re: The American Civil War didn't end. And Trump is a Confederate president
« Reply #49 on: November 08, 2018, 05:56:35 AM »
This is a very typical PC Police article that tries (and fails) to make the case that everything that's wrong with the world today a direct consequence of capitalism and the white male patriarchy. It's a popular sentiment in some quarters, but it's a real reach, when it comes to proof.

This is Spotting Ideologically-Driven "Analysis" 101 - if it attributes a wide range of complicated phenomenon to one or two causal mechanisms, then that's what it is. Realizing this isn't "bothsiderism", it's a desire to ignore ANY side which is too lazy or too malicious to avoid that dangerous ploy. It's especially dangerous when the "causal" mechanisms identified allow us to easily impose collective guilt on others.

Naah.

Calling Rebecca Solnit "lazy or malicious" is quite a reach. You have to be wearing ideological blinders to ignore the veracity of her argument. Which you are, and which you do.
But it's always a pleasure to watch the enthusiasm with which you carry water for the white male patriarchy, which is clearly in such need of being defended.

No, RE, he ain't sayin' shit, but he's trying to make sure he looks reeeeeal good while he's not sayin' it.

It's really not a reach, because everyone has their moments of laziness and maliciousness, no matter how well-educated or read. Everyone. Yes that includes me.

This is just so much sophistry, or wordplay. Utterly meaningless, and completely unresponsive to the point.

Your point was that calling Rachel Solnit "lazy or malicious" is a reach because clearly she is well-intentioned writer who is educated and articulate. Was that not your point? My response was that everyone, including people with those characteristics, can produce analysis which is lazy (I don't suspect she is being malicious). I have done it plenty of times before, even recently.

Quote
The world is a fucking complex place, and sometimes it's just A LOT easier to go with the ideological framework than trying to dissect it all over the course of years and decades. Especially if you are responsible for pushing out content on a weekly or daily basis.

Subtle ad hom. RE may be too drunk to see it, but I'm not. It must be nice to be responsible for nothing but pissing on the work of others. A good gig.

Wrong. I don't consider you guys "responsible" for pushing out content - you're not getting paid for it and people would understand if you didn't write for awhile. Not true for career commentators who would not last long if they stopped pushing out content.

Here I was making the point that humans are evolved to use cognitive shortcuts when dealing with complex realities. Cognitive scientific research shows that we don't even perceive the "external" environment accurately, because that would be counter-productive to survival. We perceive just enough to help us survive and reproduce. What makes you think that this deep evolutionary reality can be suppressed when people are formulating their opinions about complex, vaguely-defined political realities and writing analysis?


Quote
There is no white male patriarchy for me to carry water for, and when you think about it enough, the very concept becomes incoherent. But I know it's a hell of a lot easier, cognitively and culturally, for people to pretend that it not only exists, but it has been the driving force of human history for thousands of years.

This statement is delusional on its face. In the same way some claim they can't prove that God exists, but know evil when they see it, the works of the "white male patriarchy" are evident for all to see,from the recent sets of voters suppression efforts (delivering yet another set of undeserved electoral wins to Republicans), to exclusionary rules for private club memberships. If you really believe what you've written above, you're crazy.

Ah, the "you know it when you see it" line of thinking. At least you are admitting that it is a leap of faith to believe in a "white male patriarchy" which has drove human history for thousands of years. I would say it's a leap entirely in the wrong direction.

Again, it's a cognitive shortcut which allows SJWs to instantly spot the "problem and solution" in most complicated issues - the problem is white males who wield power over everyone else, and the solution is for there to be less whites and less males in positions of power. If only it were that simple.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 05:58:18 AM by Ashvin »

Offline Surly1

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Re: The American Civil War didn't end. And Trump is a Confederate president
« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2018, 10:03:12 AM »
This is a very typical PC Police article that tries (and fails) to make the case that everything that's wrong with the world today a direct consequence of capitalism and the white male patriarchy. It's a popular sentiment in some quarters, but it's a real reach, when it comes to proof.

This is Spotting Ideologically-Driven "Analysis" 101 - if it attributes a wide range of complicated phenomenon to one or two causal mechanisms, then that's what it is. Realizing this isn't "bothsiderism", it's a desire to ignore ANY side which is too lazy or too malicious to avoid that dangerous ploy. It's especially dangerous when the "causal" mechanisms identified allow us to easily impose collective guilt on others.

Naah.

Calling Rebecca Solnit "lazy or malicious" is quite a reach. You have to be wearing ideological blinders to ignore the veracity of her argument. Which you are, and which you do.
But it's always a pleasure to watch the enthusiasm with which you carry water for the white male patriarchy, which is clearly in such need of being defended.

No, RE, he ain't sayin' shit, but he's trying to make sure he looks reeeeeal good while he's not sayin' it.

It's really not a reach, because everyone has their moments of laziness and maliciousness, no matter how well-educated or read. Everyone. Yes that includes me.

The world is a fucking complex place, and sometimes it's just A LOT easier to go with the ideological framework than trying to dissect it all over the course of years and decades. Especially if you are responsible for pushing out content on a weekly or daily basis.

But nothing good comes easy and that's no excuse. There is no white male patriarchy for me to carry water for, and when you think about it enough, the very concept becomes incoherent. But I know it's a hell of a lot easier, cognitively and culturally, for people to pretend that it not only exists, but it has been the driving force of human history for thousands of years.

Sorry, no.

Take it up with Pooh.

"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Online RE

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Re: The American Civil War didn't end. And Trump is a Confederate president
« Reply #51 on: November 08, 2018, 10:45:29 AM »
Wrong. I don't consider you guys "responsible" for pushing out content - you're not getting paid for it and people would understand if you didn't write for awhile.

No they wouldn't.  Every time I miss a week with my Sunday Brunch article I get complaints in my email.  You wouldn't miss it because you hate the Diner and hate me and only are here to troll and disrupt.  Fortunately, there is only one of you and there are dozens of regular readers who consider the Diner their best source of information about collapse, and have it first on their weekly reads.  So feel free to go straight to hell because you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

RE
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 10:51:52 AM by RE »
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Online Ashvin

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Re: The American Civil War didn't end. And Trump is a Confederate president
« Reply #52 on: November 08, 2018, 02:15:25 PM »
Wrong. I don't consider you guys "responsible" for pushing out content - you're not getting paid for it and people would understand if you didn't write for awhile.

No they wouldn't.  Every time I miss a week with my Sunday Brunch article I get complaints in my email.  You wouldn't miss it because you hate the Diner and hate me and only are here to troll and disrupt.  Fortunately, there is only one of you and there are dozens of regular readers who consider the Diner their best source of information about collapse, and have it first on their weekly reads.  So feel free to go straight to hell because you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

RE

Well that's unfortunate - if your readers are really influencing you to push content out faster than you otherwise would, then obviously there is going to be trade off with the content's precision. We as humans aren't built to analyze extremely complex systems and provide new "insights" or "predictions" about them within a matter of days or weeks.

I don't know you man, apart from what little I have read from you here, so no I don't hate you. I certainly hate the Orkin Man ideology you claim to support, and I hate where it could potentially lead. But it's not anything unique to you... many people have had similar "solutions" throughout history.

Online RE

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Re: The American Civil War didn't end. And Trump is a Confederate president
« Reply #53 on: November 08, 2018, 02:25:38 PM »

I don't know you man, apart from what little I have read from you here, so no I don't hate you. I certainly hate the Orkin Man ideology you claim to support, and I hate where it could potentially lead. But it's not anything unique to you... many people have had similar "solutions" throughout history.

You do hate me, it oozes out of your pores like sweat on a muggy day in Richmond, VA.  You also about non-stop try to undermine the Diner and its message.  I tolerate you because you are a good target, but you do tire me out as well having to do battle all the time.  You really need your own website and quit trolling mine.  You're pushing on me too hard, and I am about ready once again to give you time in the Cooler.  You want to get along here, you need to get along with me and you just are real bad at this job.  I'm a long term internet moderator, just about as long as you have been alive and I know how to squash a troll and that is what you are.  So don't fuck with me if you want to keep posting here, because I will fuck with you even harder.

RE
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Online RE

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https://www.npr.org/2018/11/16/668557179/texas-students-will-soon-learn-slavery-played-a-central-role-in-the-civil-war

Texas Students Will Soon Learn Slavery Played A Central Role In The Civil War

November 16, 20185:38 PM ET

Camille Phillips


Abraham Lincoln is shown in Richmond, Va., being cheered by former slaves in 1865.
Culture Club/Getty Images

Texas' Board of Education voted Friday to change the way its students learn about the Civil War. Beginning in the 2019-2020 school year, students will be taught that slavery played a "central role" in the war.

The state's previous social studies standards listed three causes for the Civil War: sectionalism, states' rights and slavery, in that order. In September, the board's Democrats proposed listing slavery as the only cause.

"What the use of 'states' rights' is doing is essentially blanketing, or skirting, the real foundational issue, which is slavery," Democratic board member Marisa Perez-Diaz, from San Antonio, said at a Tuesday board meeting.
Why Schools Fail To Teach Slavery's 'Hard History'
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Why Schools Fail To Teach Slavery's 'Hard History'
How Textbooks Can Teach Different Versions Of History
NPR Ed
How Textbooks Can Teach Different Versions Of History

Republican board member David Bradley, from Beaumont, argued for keeping the other causes in the curriculum. He said, "Each state had differences and made individual decisions as to whether or not to join into the conflict, correct? I mean, that's the definition of states' rights."

In the end, the Republican-led board landed on a compromise: Students will be taught about "the central role of the expansion of slavery in causing sectionalism, disagreements over states' rights and the Civil War."

Houston Democrat Lawrence Allen Jr., the board's only African-American member, helped write the new language. He believes it draws a straighter line between slavery and the Civil War than the previous standards did.

"I don't think we really have that as a consensus in our state," he said Friday. "And so if we can't drive it to a consensus in our state, we need to let our students look at it from all points of view."

The board also decided to keep Hillary Clinton and Helen Keller in the curriculum, reversing a decision that made headlines in September. Clinton and Keller were initially removed, along with other historical figures, in an effort to "streamline" the state's social studies standards.

The approved curriculum still lists only one cause for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict: "the rejection of the existence of the state of Israel by the Arab league and a majority of Arab nations."
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University of Texas, Rio Grande Valley historian David Fisher was part of a work group that gave the board suggested revisions. He said listing one cause for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict lacks nuance and promotes a single point of view.
Texas Textbook Called Out As 'Racist' Against Mexican-Americans
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Texas Textbook Called Out As 'Racist' Against Mexican-Americans
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'Revisionaries' Tells Story Of Texas Textbook Battle

"It actually tells the student what to think, rather than suggesting the student study a problem and learn the facts about a problem."

At a public hearing on Tuesday, Shifa Bhatti, a Pakistani-American teacher in the Fort Worth suburbs, warned about the potential for anti-Muslim bias. "I teach middle school because when I was in eighth grade on 9/11/2001, that was the day I received my first death threat. It was in my locker. It was shoved in there. My teachers did nothing."

About 1 in 10 American public school students lives in Texas.

Lawrence Paska, executive director of the National Council for the Social Studies, says what those students learn in school has a big impact on how they understand history and current events.

"Students need opportunities to have reflective discussion," Paska says; they need to be "exposed to sources of information that may include conflicting perspectives on controversial issues."

The state Board of Education has said these changes will not affect the textbooks used in Texas classrooms. The standards go into effect at the middle and high school level in August 2019, and at the elementary level in August 2020.
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Offline Surly1

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https://www.npr.org/2018/11/16/668557179/texas-students-will-soon-learn-slavery-played-a-central-role-in-the-civil-war

Texas Students Will Soon Learn Slavery Played A Central Role In The Civil War

"What the use of 'states' rights' is doing is essentially blanketing, or skirting, the real foundational issue, which is slavery," Democratic board member Marisa Perez-Diaz, from San Antonio, said at a Tuesday board meeting.

"Blanketing." In a word.

Disagreement about the expansion of slavery was the determinative issue of US history from the ratification of the Constitution through 1861.
I don't know how else you can fairly understand it otherwise. What to do with emancipated blacks was (and remains) a wholly different issue.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Online Eddie

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Re: Civil War Litigation Thread
« Reply #56 on: November 17, 2018, 09:52:54 AM »
Just like everywhere else in the South, it was the movers and shakers who were the slave owners, and it was they who led the Trump Jefferson Davis voters into the war, by a bunch of shit-talking.

Some parts of Texas, including East Texas, had pockets of Union people. Even today, hidden on the lost byways, are little communities usually called something like "Union Chapel".

The real center of Big Cotton in Texas, which WAS the pre-war economy, and a large part of the Confederacy's GDP...was Hempstead. The railroad came there before the war, and it was in that really sweet belt of farmland west and north of Houston, and east of Austin......Brenham, Columbus, La Grange.

In the immediate time after the war, Custer was housed (and shmoozed by) the people who owned the biggest plantation there. As a result of his largesse, it still stands. They later moved to Austin, and Custer's wife loved my town.

Custer had his fuckin' hands full. I didn't really know about that part until I read this:

Gen Phil Sheridan sent Custer and a thousand or so volunteer troops to Texas in 1866 to help restore and maintain order, but Custer had his hands full maintaining order among his own troops. The conflict arose over Custer’s refusal to let the soldiers pillage and plunder the countryside to their heart’s content.

When they arrived at Hempstead in August of 1866, Custer issued orders that made it clear that “foraging” the land and its bounty would not be tolerated. Anyone found guilty of disobeying those orders would have his head shaved and receive 25 lashes of the whip. Once bloody and shorn soldiers started showing up in camp, the foraging stopped.

This measure, though successful, was also controversial. Custer was accused of violating the Reconstruction Laws that “no cruel or unjust punishment” be inflicted on “disturbers of the public peace and criminals.” Custer argued that the punishment was neither cruel nor unjust and, besides, it worked, which allowed him to follow his own orders in regard to protecting Texas planters and farmers from the troops.

The New York Times seemed to agree. “Gen’l Custer, knowing that the trial for desertion was a farce, tried every humane way to save his army from going to pieces, but failed,” a correspondent wrote. “He then tried a new way, and flogged several men and shaved their heads. This had the desired effect, but brought down the friends of these soldiers upon him, who charge him with being disloyal, inhuman, and everything that is bad. Now, I leave it to everyone if Custer didn’t do right.”

Custer’s peculiar disciplinary measures alienated many of his troops (and some authorities in Washington) but not the people who Texas, who would generally recall Custer fondly, mainly because he had protected them from those who would have preyed upon the land and the people who lived on it and from it.

The ban on foraging was particularly galling to the soldiers as they marched into Texas with a lot or orders and drills but few rations. Custer assured them that rations would be available at Hempstead, but that turned out to be not true. The troops spent two unhappy months there, and then marched to Austin. The Custers moved into the old Blind Asylum building on the outskirts of town, now restored and a part of the University of Texas campus.
For Custer’s wife, Libbie, who wrote about her experiences in Texas in her book “Tenting on the Plains,” the stay in Austin was an idyllic time, coming as it did between the Civil War and the Indian Wars on the Plains. They spent a lot of time horseback riding and at the race track. Custer liked a little place on Shoal Creek so much that he had a makeshift jail built there. “Armstrong was having the time of his life, even while performing the unpleasant and unrewarding task of taming Texas,” one biographer wrote. For her part, Libbie enjoyed the luxuries of a bathtub, furniture, a fireplace and a social life.   

It was nice while it lasted. He was mustered out of the volunteers in February of 1867, and would eventually take command of the Seventh Cavalry, where he would meet his fate and seal his name in the history books at Little Big Horn. The Texas legislature passed a resolution of condolence, noting that Custer had endeared himself to the people of Texas during his brief stay.




http://www.texasescapes.com/ClayCoppedge/Custer-in-Texas.htm
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Offline Surly1

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Re: Civil War Litigation Thread
« Reply #57 on: November 17, 2018, 10:15:41 AM »
The order may have been unpopular with his troops but was doubtless faithful to Lincoln's desired outcome for a "soft peace." And more important, enforced a needed discipline on an occupying force with little external restraint. Smells like the right thing to do. By some accounts, Custer was an exemplary officer, right up until he divided his command at the mouth of the Little Bighorn,
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Online Eddie

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Re: Civil War Litigation Thread
« Reply #58 on: November 17, 2018, 10:27:58 AM »


His Austin stable was awfully close to the saloons and whorehouses. Just sayin'.

I expect his wife probably knew this, and chose to overlook it.

Did you notice that although Lee surrendered in April, 1865, that it took the Union Army until August, 1866 to arrive?

I expect that was a fairly lawless year, and filled with all manner of starvation, theft, murder and what-not. And a time of much fear and wondering about what would happen when the Union troops did arrive. Smells like the stuff for a good novel. Wish I could type faster.
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