AuthorTopic: 🌽 Vandana Shiva on the Smallholder Farmers Who Feed the World  (Read 1688 times)

Offline RE

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🌽 Vandana Shiva on the Smallholder Farmers Who Feed the World
« on: November 23, 2018, 01:15:39 AM »
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Offline roamer

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Re: 🌽 Vandana Shiva on the Smallholder Farmers Who Feed the World
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2018, 09:06:27 AM »
I like her and as part time organic grass based dairy and livestock guy I obviously sympathize.  Of course there is the issue that population has pretty much mapped 1:1 with nitrogen use over the last century https://www.oxfordresearchgroup.org.uk/Blog/nitrogen-a-driver-of-global-food-insecurity  No easy walk away from that system.

I think the workable answers will be ugly combinations of systems nobody much likes.  Such as devoting massive wind energy to production of ammonia for continued chemical commodity farming enhanced with robots and some cover cropping and strip tillage to mitigate microbial and runoff problems. 

Offline Eddie

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Re: 🌽 Vandana Shiva on the Smallholder Farmers Who Feed the World
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2018, 10:51:10 AM »
I like her and as part time organic grass based dairy and livestock guy I obviously sympathize.  Of course there is the issue that population has pretty much mapped 1:1 with nitrogen use over the last century https://www.oxfordresearchgroup.org.uk/Blog/nitrogen-a-driver-of-global-food-insecurity  No easy walk away from that system.

I think the workable answers will be ugly combinations of systems nobody much likes.  Such as devoting massive wind energy to production of ammonia for continued chemical commodity farming enhanced with robots and some cover cropping and strip tillage to mitigate microbial and runoff problems.

That's what I miss about you not being on the Diner. You know the problem set and have some real insights into how we might keep struggling to go forward.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: 🌽 Vandana Shiva on the Smallholder Farmers Who Feed the World
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2018, 05:17:59 PM »
I like her and as part time organic grass based dairy and livestock guy I obviously sympathize.  Of course there is the issue that population has pretty much mapped 1:1 with nitrogen use over the last century https://www.oxfordresearchgroup.org.uk/Blog/nitrogen-a-driver-of-global-food-insecurity  No easy walk away from that system.

I think the workable answers will be ugly combinations of systems nobody much likes.  Such as devoting massive wind energy to production of ammonia for continued chemical commodity farming enhanced with robots and some cover cropping and strip tillage to mitigate microbial and runoff problems.
could not agree more.how we make it work if we can will be totally different then what came before. I won't comment on her I really don't know enough about her work. She's been in the green world a long time so I have some exposure nonetheless. I was looking into nitric acid generation using electric arcs. Very neat but very power intensive. In off grid solar up north we are running into a problem. We are sizing arrays More and more for winter production and end up with this huge surplus production come summer. Even more then we can use for electric hot water. I suppose car charging is a possibility but its seasonal so why not nitric acid generation. The small holder needs to use as much appropriate tech as he can and innovate to change the equation not hold onto a past that was not all great...
« Last Edit: November 23, 2018, 05:39:37 PM by Nearingsfault »
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Offline RE

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Re: 🌽 Vandana Shiva on the Smallholder Farmers Who Feed the World
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2018, 08:07:17 PM »
I like her and as part time organic grass based dairy and livestock guy I obviously sympathize.  Of course there is the issue that population has pretty much mapped 1:1 with nitrogen use over the last century https://www.oxfordresearchgroup.org.uk/Blog/nitrogen-a-driver-of-global-food-insecurity  No easy walk away from that system.

I think the workable answers will be ugly combinations of systems nobody much likes.  Such as devoting massive wind energy to production of ammonia for continued chemical commodity farming enhanced with robots and some cover cropping and strip tillage to mitigate microbial and runoff problems.
could not agree more.how we make it work if we can will be totally different then what came before. I won't comment on her I really don't know enough about her work. She's been in the green world a long time so I have some exposure nonetheless. I was looking into nitric acid generation using electric arcs. Very neat but very power intensive. In off grid solar up north we are running into a problem. We are sizing arrays More and more for winter production and end up with this huge surplus production come summer. Even more then we can use for electric hot water. I suppose car charging is a possibility but its seasonal so why not nitric acid generation. The small holder needs to use as much appropriate tech as he can and innovate to change the equation not hold onto a past that was not all great...

There's ALWAYS a way to use up excess electricity.  You could hydrolize water to make hydrogen and run your tractor on that.

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Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: 🌽 Vandana Shiva on the Smallholder Farmers Who Feed the World
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2018, 08:12:47 PM »
cooking maybe. hydrogen is hard on iron engine blocks...
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline RE

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Re: 🌽 Vandana Shiva on the Smallholder Farmers Who Feed the World
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2018, 08:18:50 PM »
cooking maybe. hydrogen is hard on iron engine blocks...

They have buses that run on hydrogen.

Alternatively, you can produce electricity from it directly with a hydrogen fuel cell and run your tractor electric.

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Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: 🌽 Vandana Shiva on the Smallholder Farmers Who Feed the World
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2018, 08:23:29 PM »
ever priced one? I have...
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline RE

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Re: 🌽 Vandana Shiva on the Smallholder Farmers Who Feed the World
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2018, 08:29:32 PM »
ever priced one? I have...

Not cheap, of course.  Run a Steam Engine.


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Offline roamer

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Re: 🌽 Vandana Shiva on the Smallholder Farmers Who Feed the World
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2018, 09:04:56 AM »
We are sizing arrays More and more for winter production and end up with this huge surplus production come summer. Even more then we can use for electric hot water. I suppose car charging is a possibility but its seasonal so why not nitric acid generation. The small holder needs to use as much appropriate tech as he can and innovate to change the equation not hold onto a past that was not all great...

It'll probably be a two step process that first produces hydrogen https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/07/ammonia-renewable-fuel-made-sun-air-and-water-could-power-globe-without-carbon

Sounds too complicated but given the importance and energy density of ammonia I think it will be exactly what we need to do with surplus renewable energy.  It'll be the green currency of the renewable world....about 50 years in the future when oil dynamics and wars and what not play out IMO anyway.

Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: 🌽 Vandana Shiva on the Smallholder Farmers Who Feed the World
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2018, 12:58:43 PM »
We are sizing arrays More and more for winter production and end up with this huge surplus production come summer. Even more then we can use for electric hot water. I suppose car charging is a possibility but its seasonal so why not nitric acid generation. The small holder needs to use as much appropriate tech as he can and innovate to change the equation not hold onto a past that was not all great...

It'll probably be a two step process that first produces hydrogen https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/07/ammonia-renewable-fuel-made-sun-air-and-water-could-power-globe-without-carbon

Sounds too complicated but given the importance and energy density of ammonia I think it will be exactly what we need to do with surplus renewable energy.  It'll be the green currency of the renewable world....about 50 years in the future when oil dynamics and wars and what not play out IMO anyway.
I was imagining nitric acid then neutralized with limestone or wood ash for a good all around fertilizer. I know ammonia can also be used as a gasoline replacement. There is the pesky problem that it's the building block for explosives though...
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline RE

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Re: 🌽 Vandana Shiva on the Smallholder Farmers Who Feed the World
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2018, 03:33:10 PM »
We are sizing arrays More and more for winter production and end up with this huge surplus production come summer. Even more then we can use for electric hot water. I suppose car charging is a possibility but its seasonal so why not nitric acid generation. The small holder needs to use as much appropriate tech as he can and innovate to change the equation not hold onto a past that was not all great...

It'll probably be a two step process that first produces hydrogen https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/07/ammonia-renewable-fuel-made-sun-air-and-water-could-power-globe-without-carbon

Sounds too complicated but given the importance and energy density of ammonia I think it will be exactly what we need to do with surplus renewable energy.  It'll be the green currency of the renewable world....about 50 years in the future when oil dynamics and wars and what not play out IMO anyway.
I was imagining nitric acid then neutralized with limestone or wood ash for a good all around fertilizer. I know ammonia can also be used as a gasoline replacement. There is the pesky problem that it's the building block for explosives though...

Explosives are very handy for getting rid of tree stumps.

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Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: 🌽 Vandana Shiva on the Smallholder Farmers Who Feed the World
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2018, 04:27:06 PM »
We are sizing arrays More and more for winter production and end up with this huge surplus production come summer. Even more then we can use for electric hot water. I suppose car charging is a possibility but its seasonal so why not nitric acid generation. The small holder needs to use as much appropriate tech as he can and innovate to change the equation not hold onto a past that was not all great...

It'll probably be a two step process that first produces hydrogen https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/07/ammonia-renewable-fuel-made-sun-air-and-water-could-power-globe-without-carbon

Sounds too complicated but given the importance and energy density of ammonia I think it will be exactly what we need to do with surplus renewable energy.  It'll be the green currency of the renewable world....about 50 years in the future when oil dynamics and wars and what not play out IMO anyway.
I was imagining nitric acid then neutralized with limestone or wood ash for a good all around fertilizer. I know ammonia can also be used as a gasoline replacement. There is the pesky problem that it's the building block for explosives though...

Explosives are very handy for getting rid of tree stumps.

RE
as if I needed more projects with a real chance of causing myself bodily harm...
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline RE

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Re: 🌽 Vandana Shiva on the Smallholder Farmers Who Feed the World
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2018, 04:36:13 PM »
We are sizing arrays More and more for winter production and end up with this huge surplus production come summer. Even more then we can use for electric hot water. I suppose car charging is a possibility but its seasonal so why not nitric acid generation. The small holder needs to use as much appropriate tech as he can and innovate to change the equation not hold onto a past that was not all great...

It'll probably be a two step process that first produces hydrogen https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/07/ammonia-renewable-fuel-made-sun-air-and-water-could-power-globe-without-carbon

Sounds too complicated but given the importance and energy density of ammonia I think it will be exactly what we need to do with surplus renewable energy.  It'll be the green currency of the renewable world....about 50 years in the future when oil dynamics and wars and what not play out IMO anyway.
I was imagining nitric acid then neutralized with limestone or wood ash for a good all around fertilizer. I know ammonia can also be used as a gasoline replacement. There is the pesky problem that it's the building block for explosives though...

Explosives are very handy for getting rid of tree stumps.

RE
as if I needed more projects with a real chance of causing myself bodily harm...

Bah.  As Eddie says, damn the realities, live life!  You haven't lived until you have blown up something.  Explosions were one of the few things that got my students excited about chemistry when I was teaching HS.

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