PE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd"> Community Owned Doomstead

Poll

Would you consider in participating in this type of farm?

Yes
10 (90.9%)
No
1 (9.1%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Voting closed: February 15, 2013, 06:04:46 PM

AuthorTopic: Community Owned Doomstead  (Read 58777 times)

Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: Community Owned Doomstead
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2013, 01:43:48 AM »
This lefty doom tribe is doomed, so you got free abortion, gay marriage and no guns, everything you need to survive andf thrive, whooooaaaaahhhh dont lay that trip on me, chill out dude.  Lol!!
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Online RE

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Re: Community Owned Doomstead
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2013, 02:37:31 AM »
This lefty doom tribe is doomed, so you got free abortion, gay marriage and no guns, everything you need to survive andf thrive, whooooaaaaahhhh dont lay that trip on me, chill out dude.  Lol!!

Argument Framing and Disinformation off the keyboard of the Oz Nazi Shrink.  :icon_mrgreen:

First off, I am Lefty, and is there any BIGGER Gun Freak on the Diner?

Second, fuck GAY Marriage, I am against Marriage altogether, Hetero or Homo.  It's a legal construct of the state.

Far as Abortion is concerned, if it's not FREE, it's EXPOSURE time for Infants the Tribe cannot support!  Your choice Conservatard, STARVE poor kids after they are born or put them out of misery beforehand.

A REAL Lefty has CFS! You frame the argument around the Illuminati definition of Lefty.

RE
« Last Edit: February 08, 2013, 03:57:03 AM by RE »
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Offline luciddreams

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Re: Community Owned Doomstead
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2013, 04:28:01 AM »
Gonna read that piece after this comment RE.

Lot's of people would label me a liberal hippie type as well, but I wouldn't label myself that way.  I've hung out with them and I don't really get along well with the whole passive aggressive limpness.  Men acting like their dicks have atrophied and women acting like they are plugged into the source and have divine messages for everybody in which they have rolled up into a cigarette composed of special herbs.  If your lucky enough they might pass it your way.  I don't have time for that self aggrandizement.  Your not saving the Earth you douche!!  The Earth does not give a shit about your crusades.  If you choke to death on carbon in a bed of Styrofoam the Earth will just cover that shit up with more Earth and move on. 

If I had to chose I'd rather hang out with the liberal lefty.  Republicans are just selfish greedy pricks whom have no idea that Steven Colbert is practicing sarcasm (no really, I know a couple whom think Colbert is a raging republican).  Basically Democrats are pussies in denial and republicans are retarded.  I don't get along with either, which mostly means I don't get along with anybody in this country.  Not unless they could care less about politics in general. 

GO, you are right about the elder problem.  I've noticed that problem and it's a big one.  Not to disrespect any of you older gents here, but for the most part the "elders" these days have their fucking heads up their asses.  The world has become an orphanage that has mutinied.  No moral compass, no leadership, just a free for all with each contestant bashing the others brains out to get theirs. 

I'm very interested in Roamer's project.  I think it could work, but it's gonna take the right combination of people with the same vision.  I also think a couple of elders that are respected by the majority is necessary.  Without that mechanism for dispute resolution it's just a matter of time before a carcegoma grows and fucks it all up.  I know The Farm is still alive and kickin', but it's the exception to the rule, and I'm pretty sure they have elders holding it together now.  My understanding is that the Farm really is an exceptional anomaly in intentional living. 

Online RE

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RE: The Old Storyteller
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2013, 04:44:58 AM »

There was little thought behind the line and perhaps I should have thought more carefully about typing it as it gives a message I was not intending to give. I generally have a habit of putting a posters name in bold when posting; that habit goes with this post as well as many others. As for why I singled RE out that came about for several reasons. I did that because I made the assumption he was the one who would provide the initial funding and planning to this project plus I felt this was initially his idea. It was these reasons why I selected him. As for who actually runs the project once it out of the ground and beyond the concept stage who knows...

One would assume he would be one of the major influences of such a group but I do know from my limited experience that the power dynamics will evolve in time due to the ambitions, workload, capability and charisma that each member brings to the group. There is the possibility of a political overthrow occurring or an open challenge to the power structure or other abuses to the system put in place. For too long the method of organisation through hierarchy (reinforced with money and wealth) has gone on for so long, become so ingrained,  that there could certainly be a push to bring the community to that direction much to the chagrin of its founding members. I suppose some safeguards could be put in place to avoid that, one seems to be through the sharing and elimination of money as the main medium of exchange but then even this may not be enough to stop things in the long run.

Saying all that, I think these are just details that while perhaps important in the future should not be issues that people get too caught into. I think the main issue is interest and how many people you could get to agree on a time and place for this project to become viable.

Blah.  This kind of speculation gets me pegged with Jim Jones and David Koresh.

First off, it is highly unlikely I show up at ALL at this Doomstead Diner Physical.  I am just trying to facilitate the development of such Bugout Locations for Needy Diners who are not Flush Enough with FRNs now to do it on their own. I drop in some Seed Money is all, and reserve the right to show up one day if things CRAP OUT for me on the Last Great Frontier.  It's a HEDGE for me.

If I DID happen to show up after a few Diners got it Up & Running and have been busting ass for a year, are they supposed to grovel at my feet?  Hopefully I get some Respect for my efforts to get it off the ground, but I am just another Grunt when I show up.  Whoever has been there Organizing and making it WORK is the Leader.

To be HONEST because I am an entertaing fellow and I do know a LOT and am pretty old and experienced and financed a decent part of it, Tribe membes will listen to me, but I would be stupid to mess with whoever was leading, if he was doing a decent job of it anyhow.

I see myself as an Old Storyteller in such a Tribe, not the Leader.  I would hope to communicate Lessons from History and my Experience to younger more physically able Leaders.  I would hope they would LISTEN to me.

I do not want to be Jim Jones or David Koresh. I just want to finish my life in some peace, and help my friends to make it THROUGH the Zero Point.

RE
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Offline luciddreams

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Re: Community Owned Doomstead
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2013, 05:02:24 AM »
RE, I understand your concern with being turned into a Koresch or Jones, but I don't think that's the case here.  I don't get that from anything Monsta wrote.  Nobodies drinking any koolaid, at least not from what I've seen in this crowd the short time I've been here.  That's part of the problem I think.  Too many of us are strong individuals who aren't going to freely give up our autonomy. 

Speaking just for myself, I would give up that autonomy and follow, but not easily or quickly.  It would take time interacting with any "leader" before I would follow.  That's the rub though isn't it.  This sort of thing takes leadership, and that's been my point.  Not necessarily an "elder," as I have been saying, but at least a strong and capable leader.  Respect is essential, and that respect doesn't just descend from the ether. 

I think the reality here is that whomever brings the most money/assets to the project becomes the default leader.  Isn't that how this works?  Maybe not here, with this crowd, and I don't think this dynamic is necessary...just likely. 

Online RE

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Re: Community Owned Doomstead
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2013, 05:32:27 AM »
RE, I understand your concern with being turned into a Koresch or Jones, but I don't think that's the case here.  I don't get that from anything Monsta wrote.  Nobodies drinking any koolaid, at least not from what I've seen in this crowd the short time I've been here.  That's part of the problem I think.  Too many of us are strong individuals who aren't going to freely give up our autonomy. 

Speaking just for myself, I would give up that autonomy and follow, but not easily or quickly.  It would take time interacting with any "leader" before I would follow.  That's the rub though isn't it.  This sort of thing takes leadership, and that's been my point.  Not necessarily an "elder," as I have been saying, but at least a strong and capable leader.  Respect is essential, and that respect doesn't just descend from the ether. 

I think the reality here is that whomever brings the most money/assets to the project becomes the default leader.  Isn't that how this works?  Maybe not here, with this crowd, and I don't think this dynamic is necessary...just likely.

Well, I am  bit Gun Shy on this, because along the way here I often have been accused of being an incipien Demagoague, and on bigger scales than David Koresh or Jim Jones too.  Think Uncle Joe Stalin.  LOL.

So no, Monsta really did not write this, not even in Subtext, it is my projection from it, my basic FEAR when I try tp promote such ideas.

As you say though, with THIS CROWD, here on the Diner I don't think most would easily succumbe to a Demagogue.  Far as De Facto Leadership goes for coughing up the most MONEY, that is entirely cultural.  Trust me, when the monetary system collapses, this will be rendered MEANINGLESS.  That is why I write.  See, my words have more real VALUE than the money does.  The words earn the respect.  They are more important than the Boozebucks.

RE
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Offline luciddreams

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Re: Community Owned Doomstead
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2013, 06:28:45 AM »

Well, I am  bit Gun Shy on this, because along the way here I often have been accused of being an incipien Demagoague, and on bigger scales than David Koresh or Jim Jones too.  Think Uncle Joe Stalin.  LOL.

So no, Monsta really did not write this, not even in Subtext, it is my projection from it, my basic FEAR when I try tp promote such ideas.

As you say though, with THIS CROWD, here on the Diner I don't think most would easily succumbe to a Demagogue.  Far as De Facto Leadership goes for coughing up the most MONEY, that is entirely cultural.  Trust me, when the monetary system collapses, this will be rendered MEANINGLESS. That is why I write.  See, my words have more real VALUE than the money does.  The words earn the respect.  They are more important than the Boozebucks.

RE

Yeah, money doesn't mean shit to me, even now, not where any type of respect is concerned at least.  However, it's still how we get shit done, and we are living in that paradigm now.  Maybe it will change, but I'm not betting on that happening anytime soon.  Money is the main problem where intentional living is concerned.  That is, if you have it you can buy yourself a place, but if you don't your shit out of luck. 

If we are to believe that money will be rendered pointless, than why should it be such a big deal from the start of this intentional doom community?  It should just be, do we have enough of it to accomplish the goal?  Not, each person must have it to participate.  The problem being we need the money to buy the land and raw materials that will be needed.  We need the money to pay for existence until such a point where we are close to self sustaining (but that will never really happen...not completely).  I guess my point is that bringing money into the equation with regards to who can participate is limiting.  It will take people like WHD and me out of the mix because we can't afford to participate.  Yet money will be rendered pointless right?  As you have said RE.  I'm not attacking here.  I'm just bringing up a valid point. 

Based on what WHD has said in the past at his blog, I'm sure he'd jump at the chance to make something like this a reality.  His skills would be priceless and exactly what's needed. 

I think this type of thing is necessary.  If the future is as fucked as we all say it is than what are we waiting for?  I'm sure all of you boomer doomers have enough change to make something like this a reality.  Probably in the neighborhood of 200-300,000 dollars would make it happen.  I think being able to purchase the land outright would be most necessary.  Finding the right spot is imperative.  By this I mean a spot where local government won't swoop in and remove all of the composting toilets and tell all us dirty hippies to get a hair cut and a real job.  I've heard areas of Kentucky and Tennessee are hands off. 

I can say that if this was something that was to become a reality, and not just a bunch of talking...as in the the boomer doomer benefactors collectively agreed to cough up the money and buy the land...I'd throw all in with my family.  I'd change my current course and continue to forgo medical insurance and all of that pretend security while having a wife and two children to care for and feed.  I gotta say I'd have a condition.  I'd be bringin' my model 94 30/30 and it would be mine, not collective.  I know how to use it.  I put food on the table with it.  I'm not leaving it behind. 

All of this to say that I would seriously do something like this, and I would bring a family with me.  There's a difference between fantasizing about this on a forum and the reality.  So what is it?  Are we just having a group circle jerk...jackin' each other off, or is this going to get momentum and become a reality?  According to you, RE, any day now the dollar can tank and TEOTWAWKI can occur.  I'm not sure I believe that exactly, but I do feel the urgency.  I do realize that nursing has the potential to become a clusterfuck in a cage.  It's just the best I've got right now. 

So what's it gonna be?  What are we talking about here? 

Online RE

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Re: Community Owned Doomstead
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2013, 06:58:28 AM »
]So what's it gonna be?  What are we talking about here?


My best guess is we are in the Twilight Zone, somewhere between the knowledge of reality and the consequences of our obligations.

Every step we take is  a progress of sorts.  LD, can you really wrap your mind around how long and hard I have worked just to get to HERE, where we can talk such things and not be ridiculed for it? I have been at this for more than 4 years explicitly, and can only now achieve such discussions at all.

I really got no CLUE at the moment what might work itself out.  Roamer is looking at WI locations, I wrote my sister to scope out the Ozarks one.

Can some Old Jackass Boomers with some Cash get together with some Numbskull GenX andd Millenials with some skills and make a Better Tomorrow?  HTF do I know?  I'm NOT Nostradamus.

I am not a QUITTER though either, so I keep on PLUGGING.

Time will Tell how it Goes. Everybody Knows.

RE
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Offline luciddreams

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Re: Community Owned Doomstead
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2013, 07:19:39 AM »
]So what's it gonna be?  What are we talking about here?


My best guess is we are in the Twilight Zone, somewhere between the knowledge of reality and the consequences of our obligations.

Every step we take is  a progress of sorts.  LD, can you really wrap your mind around how long and hard I have worked just to get to HERE, where we can talk such things and not be ridiculed for it? I have been at this for more than 4 years explicitly, and can only now achieve such discussions at all.

I really got no CLUE at the moment what might work itself out.  Roamer is looking at WI locations, I wrote my sister to scope out the Ozarks one.

Can some Old Jackass Boomers with some Cash get together with some Numbskull GenX andd Millenials with some skills and make a Better Tomorrow?  HTF do I know?  I'm NOT Nostradamus.

I am not a QUITTER though either, so I keep on PLUGGING.

Time will Tell how it Goes. Everybody Knows.

RE

Sure, I can wrap my mind around the time you've spent building this platform...in my own way at least.  I for one am very grateful for what you have done.  That's how these things get started...if they are to succeed at least.  Sometimes willy nilly muddling works, but it's better to have a plan, especially when you are talking about uprooting lives.  This is where the rubber meets the road isn't it?  What has been the point of the Diner RE?  Why did you start it up?  Why do you continue with it?  "Save as many as you can" indeed. 

In response to what I bolded;  I'm not asking you to be a nostradamus.  Can this work?  I guess if there's enough money and enough able bodies that are willing to do the work than it can work.  What's going to stop it from working?  I've expressed my greatest concerns.  Namely leadership and money, but I believe these things can be worked through.  I think the most important thing is having a shared vision.  A direction.  Goals.  What is the point of this?  To build a doomer village?  You've put all of this work into maintaining this virtual space.  A much needed one.  But it's all fun and games until we actually do something about it.  Is the DD just a virtual club where we hang out and chew the fat?  Or is there a higher purpose?  If you had a higher purpose for the DD what is it if not a doomer village in reality? 

One thing I like about this growing plan is that I think we all agree in the CFS principal.  The time I've spent with the permaculture/transition types have been informative.  Their Achilles heal has always been the topic of security.  Since they are composed of liberal hippie douches they never want to talk about security.  They just want to ignore guns altogether.  Those pesky evil things that should be banished to space.  That's not reality.  Guns will be necessary for a TEOTWAWKI scenario.  People who know how to use them will be necessary as well.  I'm not trying to take the conversation off the deep end, but I'm saying I think this crowd won't shy away from gun reality. 

I think the model should be to create a doomer village with plans to operate in the here and now.  That is, schemes to make money by growing legal plants.  I've been cultivating skills with fermentation.  That's one thing I can bring to the table.  I'll also be bringing small children to the table.  I think children are necessary for many reasons in a community.  They bring a point to the whole thing. 

Online RE

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Re: Community Owned Doomstead
« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2013, 07:48:51 AM »
  I think children are necessary for many reasons in a community.  They bring a point to the whole thing.

Indeed, kids are the REASON.

WHD knows my work with kids, nobody else here does.  Kids are Legacy, and the Future.

No more  from my keyboad tonight.  Gotts get some sleep.

RE
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Offline Golden Oxen

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Re: Community Owned Doomstead
« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2013, 08:01:58 AM »
Quote
Sure, I can wrap my mind around the time you've spent building this platform...in my own way at least.  I for one am very grateful for what you have done. 

Same with me, I just love the Diner,  but the DM hates conservatives, it's just heartbreaking. That constant disapproval and scolding from our master. It gives me terrible feelings of rejection and persecution.

Sometimes I just feel like lying and declaring myself a Lefty, so I can belong, but if the DM asks me for proof I'm screwed, and I don't want to chance ending up you know where.

Lucid, take a good honest look at me and tell me please, "What's Not to Love"  :exp-grin: :exp-grin: :laugh:

                                               
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Offline luciddreams

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Re: Community Owned Doomstead
« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2013, 08:20:15 AM »
Every group needs a good punching bag GO.  I'm sure you will fit the bill :laugh:

Left/right...republican/democrat...hippy douche/conservative prick...who gives a shit.  At the end of the day it's about tolerance.  We don't all have to agree about politics, religions, sex, or any of the other taboo subjects.  What we have to agree on is when it's time to start diggin' holes, growing food, and building commons. 

Offline Golden Oxen

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Re: Community Owned Doomstead
« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2013, 09:18:00 AM »
Every group needs a good punching bag GO.  I'm sure you will fit the bill :laugh:

Left/right...republican/democrat...hippy douche/conservative prick...who gives a shit.  At the end of the day it's about tolerance.  We don't all have to agree about politics, religions, sex, or any of the other taboo subjects.  What we have to agree on is when it's time to start diggin' holes, growing food, and building commons.

 :emthup: :emthup: :emthup: :emthup: :emthup:
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Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: Community Owned Doomstead
« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2013, 05:20:41 PM »
Roamer, are you waiting on legal advice or something?

Some very good points made so far. I hadnt picked up RE was a lefty in all this time, seemed more apolitical. FWIW I vote GREEN, even though I dont like their social engineering, I make a statement that the earth and environment come FIRST for me, that aside I believe in Libertarianism, hate big gov, hate regulations.

I agree totally with LD about the way-lefty and permaculturalists ignoring a need for security. Any ecovillage around is going to be a sitting duck for theives. These people are into sustainability but I think have no clue about collapse. I was once invited by some people I met at a bar to go to a "forest-rave", but I couldnt spend too muh time with those people for the same reasons as LD, although I like women bushy not bald ;) having said that I believe eco-activists are true heroes, and the guys who circle and board whaling ships with harpoons in rubber zodiacs are no pussies. It pisses  me off the MSM framing the agenda with asking a poll on whether they should have to pay for the expenses of the navy bringing them back, and a majority of sheeple agreeing.

GO, youve stood up for and argued your opinions and political position just fine so far, so why stop? I dont believe in politics or religion being taboo because of upsetting people, polite company requires that tact, but not among real friends anyway. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and im happy to hear it, thats the diner spirit.

On leadership, i suggest a council of 5 or 7, odd number is essential to avoid a tie, and not more or it holds things up. Calling it "council of elders" enshrines respect for elders experience, although you would need a limit when an elder steps down and they appoint a new one. Younger people would make their case in a meeting to get their influence of opinion heard. Men using force or women using sex to influence a council member would be a serious offence to the Constitution.

Actually if its all lefty, that would be the other way round, we have representation of females, gays and ethnic minority, and disability. In a poker playing trumping order. female trumps male, gay female trumps female, black gay female trumps that, and black lesbian retarded female trumps that. JUST KIDDING!!! :icon_mrgreen:








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Offline luciddreams

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Re: Community Owned Doomstead
« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2013, 06:37:27 PM »
I think a good place to start with this is to figure out how many people you would need to get it going.  I'm gonna shoot from the hip and say five to six able bodied men.  Somewhere in the neighborhood of a squad.  I learned in JROTC that 7 to 8 people are the most people that one person can successfully lead. 

A leader will also be important, but one that has no problems following and is tempered and humble enough to not let the position go to their head.  That takes an exceptional person.  I think WHD is an obvious candidate for the position (as is Hepp, but he's across the pond and building his own doomstead so...).  Where you at WHD?  It's not like you have a job.  Why haven't you responded to this thread?  Also, it's important I think to point out that that those five to seven people are not counting whatever elders can be drummed up.  That is a different type of leadership.  I think at least one, preferably three, would be a good number of elders. 

I think somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 acres would be sufficient.  More would be better.  Woods would be essential as would water.  But talking about the geographic needs are not necessary here.  We all know what's needed.  That's the easy part. 

Once these people are assembled and pledged to the project what's left is money.  Pending we get the money together, we pool all resources, buy the land, and begin. 

At that point the DD can become a recruiting site for all interested.  A maximum number of people would have to be figured out from the start. 

At this point I've talked to my wife about it.  She's interested and says she would do it but she wants me to have the RN license first.  Naturally she wants the ability to acquire money (and so do I).  Yet for my part, this area is negotiable.  If things happened fast I'd consider going all in and making this project my hedge against TEOTWAWKI.  It's pretty much exactly what I resigned from the Matrix to achieve.  The opportunity just never presented itself to me so I had to look for another way.  The nursing bit is really just a necessity for me to acquire the money I need to make something like this happen.  That's my end goal.  A permaculture haven for those exiting the Matrix to come to and thrive.  If what we are talking about doing never fleshes out, eventually, I'll do it myself.  It will just be five years or so before I can build myself up with enough societal paper verification to get that money. 

So that being the case.  That is, the point of my schooling right now is just to get to the point where I'll have the money to do this.  If it can be done without playing the game I'd actually prefer that.  I suppose what's left is for me to shut up, sit back, and see how this fleshes out. 

 

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