AuthorTopic: How Rich are you? What is your Class? Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution of Global Resources?  (Read 606 times)

Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 36736
    • View Profile


youtube-Logo-4gc2reddit-logoOff the keyboard, microphone & camera of RE



Follow us on Twitter @doomstead666

Friend us on Facebook



Published on The Doomstead Diner March 24, 2019



 



Image result for class war



Discuss this article at the Economics Table Inside the Diner



 



Inside the Diner we are having our regular debate on what it means to be "Poor", "Middle Class" or Rich?  Diners have the full variety of opinions on this, which usually suit their own perception of themselves and how they want others to perceive them.  Is there a way to cut through this variety of opinion to come to some reasonable definition of what any of these terms actually MEAN?  It often seems quite hopeless getting any agreement on this between the Diners, but in doing some research on the topic yesterday, I ran across a great website which has a Calculator allowing you to place yourself in the Global Ranking of Rich People on Earth.



I started doing this research after watching a video recommended by another Diner, a TED talk given by a Scandinavian Sociologist Harald Eia concerned with the topic of "Where in the World is it easiest to get RICH?"






Harald came up with the result that you stand the best chance of getting rich in the Social Democracies of places like Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Iceland.  He came up with this result by looking at the number of people with a net worth of $30M or better per capita by country.  This is something of a surprise to people who buy into Capitalist doctrine that High Taxes and the Social Welfare State are a drain on their incomes, but not much of a surprise to me because I already knew there were tons of filthy rich people in Scandinavia.



Now, the first problem here is defining "Rich" as $30M or better.  At this "watermark" (the speaker's terminology) there are only around 180K people globally.  That is out of 7.5B!  It works out to 0.0024% of the Global Population.  Do we really only define "Rich" people as being not just members of the 1%, but you gotta be in the top .0024% ?  That is a pretty stiff requirement to consider somebody rich, IMHO.  You know the rich people in your neighborhood by the carz they drive, the McMansions they live in, the restaurants they frequent and how often they take expensive vacations.



The second major issue with his methodology is it defines your Wealth by your Net Assets, not by your income.  To me, your wealth is not defined by what your total assets are, but rather how much disposable income you have in any given week/month/year to play with after you cover your rent, your car payment, your communications bill, your food, your fuel, etc.  So for me, wealth is more defined by Income than Net Assets.



I began to wonder what the situatioin was for people who were below that Stratospheric figure of $30M?  Was there a way to find out where the people with a Net Worth of $10M stood?  $3M? $1M? $100K? etc.  As it turns out, THERE IS!  You can find out on the Global Rich List calculator, and not only by Net Assets but by Income also!



So, I took 3 Hypothetical People and gave them some numbers to plug in to the calculator, and got the results for them.  Here they are below:



 



1- Fixed Income Frank



Frank is living on his Social Security and small Pension after working in various Middle Class jobs making the Median Salary for the time for 40 years.  He rents an apartment, has a couple of old carz and has a small Nest Egg to carry him through emergencies.  Here are Frank's Global Numbers:






 






 



Professional Pete:



Pete works in IT as a website developer for a local corporation.  He has worked up to a middle management position working for this corporation for over 20 years.  He grosses around $80K/year and he takes home about $60K after taxes, utilities, insurance etc.



 






 






 



Biz Owner Bill



Bill owns an Auto Repair and Body Shop biz in Springfield, MO as well as a couple of smaller ancillary biznesses, an Auto Zone franchise and an interest in the local NASCAR Dirt Racing Track.  He was born to Dirt Poor sodbusters in the Ozarks and bootstrapped himself up like Horatio Algier to become a Bizness Leader in his community.  He complains all the time about his onerous tax burden when out drinking with his buddies.



 






 






 



Now, as you can see, even if you are at the lower end of  relatively poor people in the FSoA living on a fixed pension and Social Security, relative to the rest of the Global population you are still doing quite well, Inside the top 7% in terms of Assets and 2% in terms of Income.  The cost of living is also quite different in Amerika than in say Mexico, so by itself this doesn't tell you how Rich or Poor you are for an Amerikan living in Amerika.  If you go ex-Pat, your status can change drasticlly of course.



So in order to get a good idea where these Asset and Income levels put you at relative to the rest of Amerikans, you have to drill down and isolate just this portion of the table.  Below is how our 3 hypothetical subjects rank out relative to each other.  Fixed Income Frank is in RED, Professional Pete is in PURPLE and Biz Owner Bill is in GREEN.  Assets calibrated from 8% on down in .2% increments, Income from 3% on down in .05% increments.



 






 



Based on the above chart, it becomes quite easy to determine who is Rich and who is Poor in Amerika.  Middle Class is a bit more difficult to peg, and can differ markedly depending whether you are looking at Assets or Income.



Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution curve for the World and for your country?  Do the numbers match your self-perception and self-identification?  How do you think this skewed Wealth Distribution can be rectified, or does it even need to be rectified?  Do you think Capitalism or Socialism is the better system to distribute diminishing Total Wealth on a resource depleted planet?  Do you have an alternative to suggest rather than one of these choices?  Come join us Inside the Diner to discuss thes important questions as the Collapse of Industrial Civilization bears down upon us all.



 



 



 


SAVE AS MANY AS YOU CAN

Offline Eddie

  • Global Moderator
  • Master Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 17327
    • View Profile
Now, the first problem here is defining "Rich" as $30M or better.  At this "watermark" (the speaker's terminology) there are only around 180K people globally.  That is out of 7.5B!  It works out to 0.0024% of the Global Population.  Do we really only define "Rich" people as being not just members of the 1%, but you gotta be in the top .0024% ?

Problem?

 He's a sociologist, and he defined his parameters. He was specifically looking for what he defined as ultra high net worth individuals. He wasn't trying to define the term rich, which means completely different things to different people.

The second major issue with his methodology is it defines your Wealth by your Net Assets, not by your income.  To me, your wealth is not defined by what your total assets are, but rather how much disposable income you have in any given week/month/year to play with after you cover your rent, your car payment, your communications bill, your food, your fuel, etc.  So for me, wealth is more defined by Income than Net Assets.

Wealth and income are two different things. This is a an important distinction, and you shouldn't conflate the two. This is something that amounts to a common mistake, not a way to get to the truth of anything. Only poor people think high net income equals wealth. Rich people know better than that.

We all know that (a) the world is overpopulated and (b) that something like 70% of the world' population live on less than $10 a day. This skews all your numbers for those of us who live in the first world....and truthfully, the second world too. Office workers in Bangkok make $800/month.

But that is income. And most people on the planet have low incomes and almost zero wealth. You can feel bad about it, but using it to make middle class Americans look shockingly rich is just a game that some people play....the Wealth Inequality Game.

Oh, look how rich you are!!!  You don't deserve all that wealth. What about the starving children in __________. (Choose your favorite 3rd world country.)


Not wealth. Your examples don't really even make sense. It looks like you randomly assigned different amounts of wealth to your various examples based on....what?  " What you think is "normal" or "average"? Whatever, you made it up, or somebody did.

 And apps like that one are fairly suspect, in the way they're constructed. But assuming the numbers are even correct by somebody's math, it's fairly meaningless.

So I don't see what you're trying to prove here. Neither me nor the guy who did the TED Talk made any moral judgments.

Here's an example. If I live and retire at 70 and my wife is alive, the two of us will make $7700/month from Social Security.  If I have retired my debt, I will have maybe that much again from cash flow on my assets. So that's high income, compared to most people.

But it isn't wealth.

My wealth is the assets I own. Equity in my business. Equity in my house. Equity in my farm property. Equity in the seven rental properties I own. Equity in my life insurance policy. The value of my stocks and/or cryptos. Gold and silver, if I have any. The value of my tractor. The value of my livestock, if I have any.

I don't measure my wealth or my income against some $2/day number dreamed up by some non-profit. I measure it against my own achievements and my own estimates about what kind of income I'm likely to need to live the way I want to live. Because that's what matters to me. I certainly don't give a flying fuck if it suits you or your commie peanut gallery on the Diner

And none of this has much to do with the TED Talk. I'm not an ultra high net worth individual. Not even close.



« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 10:04:04 AM by Eddie »
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 36736
    • View Profile

Wealth and income are two different things. This is a an important distinction, and you shouldn't conflate the two. This is something that amounts to a common mistake, not a way to get to the truth of anything. Only poor people think high net income equals wealth. Rich people know better than that.


Well, the Global Rich List website provides a calculator for both parameters, so clearly they think both are important measures for determining how rich you are.

What's the purpose?  To try and get some kind of reasonable definition of when you leave the Poor to become Middle Class, and when you leave the Middle Class to become Rich.  Until we have a definition we can agree on, we can't discuss the issue in any reasonable fashion.

RE
SAVE AS MANY AS YOU CAN

Offline Nearingsfault

  • Waitstaff
  • ***
  • Posts: 990
    • View Profile
<p style="text-align: right;">
   <a href="http://theeasiestpersontofool.blogspot.com/2018/09/responding-to-collapse-part-2-climate.html" rel="attachment wp-att-28599" target="_blank"><img alt="youtube-Logo-4" class="alignleft size-full wp-image-28599" height="54" src="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/youtube-Logo-4.png" width="58" />[/url]<img alt="gc2" class="alignleft size-medium wp-image-25628" height="48" src="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/gc2-300x203.gif" width="71" /><a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/globalcollapse/" target="_blank"><img alt="reddit-logo" class="alignleft size-thumbnail wp-image-26444" height="53" sizes="(max-width: 53px) 100vw, 53px" src="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/reddit-logo-150x150.png" srcset="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/reddit-logo-150x150.png 150w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/reddit-logo-300x300.png 300w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/reddit-logo.png 512w" width="53" />[/url]Off the keyboard, microphone & camera of RE
</p>
<p style="text-align: right;">
   Follow us on Twitter <a href="https://twitter.com/Doomstead666" target="_blank" title="Diner Tweets"><strong>@doomstead666</strong>[/url]


   Friend us on <a href="https://www.facebook.com/DoomsteadDiner" target="_blank" title="Diner Facebook"><strong>Facebook</strong>[/url]
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   Published on <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog" target="_blank"><strong>The Doomstead Diner</strong>[/url]<strong> </strong>March 24, 2019
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   <img alt="Image result for class war" class="irc_mi" data-iml="1553410112758" height="440" onload="typeof google==='object'&&google.aft&&google.aft(this)" src="https://www.datocms-assets.com/4857/1523077851-wealth2.jpg" style="margin-top: 0px;" width="542" />
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   Discuss this article at the<strong> Economics Table</strong> Inside the Diner
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   
</p>
<p>
   <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/forum/index.php" target="_blank"><strong>Inside the Diner</strong>[/url] we are having our regular debate on what it means to be "Poor", "Middle Class" or Rich?  Diners have the full variety of opinions on this, which usually suit their own perception of themselves and how they want others to perceive them.  Is there a way to cut through this variety of opinion to come to some reasonable definition of what any of these terms actually <strong>MEAN?</strong>  It often seems quite hopeless getting any agreement on this between the Diners, but in doing some research on the topic yesterday, I ran across a great website which has a Calculator allowing you to place yourself in the <strong>Global Ranking of Rich People on Earth</strong>.
</p>
<p>
   I started doing this research after watching a video recommended by another Diner, a TED talk given by a Scandinavian Sociologist Harald Eia concerned with the topic of "Where in the World is it easiest to get <strong>RICH</strong>?"
</p>
<p>
   <iframe allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="432" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/A9UmdY0E8hU" width="768"></iframe>
</p>
<p>
   Harald came up with the result that you stand the best chance of getting rich in the Social Democracies of places like Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Iceland.  He came up with this result by looking at the number of people with a net worth of $30M or better per capita by country.  This is something of a surprise to people who buy into Capitalist doctrine that High Taxes and the Social Welfare State are a drain on their incomes, but not much of a surprise to me because I already knew there were tons of filthy rich people in Scandinavia.
</p>
<p>
   Now, the first problem here is defining "Rich" as $30M or better.  At this "watermark" (the speaker's terminology) there are only around 180K people globally.  That is out of 7.5B!  It works out to 0.0024% of the Global Population.  Do we really only define "Rich" people as being not just members of the 1%, but you gotta be in the top .0024% ?  That is a pretty stiff requirement to consider somebody rich, IMHO.  You know the rich people in your neighborhood by the carz they drive, the McMansions they live in, the restaurants they frequent and how often they take expensive vacations.
</p>
<p>
   The second major issue with his methodology is it defines your Wealth by your Net Assets, not by your income.  To me, your wealth is not defined by what your total assets are, but rather how much disposable income you have in any given week/month/year to play with after you cover your rent, your car payment, your communications bill, your food, your fuel, etc.  So for me, wealth is more defined by Income than Net Assets.
</p>
<p>
   I began to wonder what the situatioin was for people who were below that Stratospheric figure of $30M?  Was there a way to find out where the people with a Net Worth of $10M stood?  $3M? $1M? $100K? etc.  As it turns out, <strong>THERE IS!</strong>  You can find out on the <a href="http://www.globalrichlist.com/wealth" target="_blank"><strong>Global Rich List</strong>[/url] calculator, and not only by Net Assets but by Income also!
</p>
<p>
   So, I took 3 Hypothetical People and gave them some numbers to plug in to the calculator, and got the results for them.  Here they are below:
</p>
<p>
   
</p>
<p>
   <span style="font-size:22px;"><strong>1- Fixed Income Frank</strong></span>
</p>
<p>
   Frank is living on his Social Security and small Pension after working in various Middle Class jobs making the Median Salary for the time for 40 years.  He rents an apartment, has a couple of old carz and has a small Nest Egg to carry him through emergencies.  Here are Frank's Global Numbers:
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-1.png" rel="" style="" target="" title=""><img alt="" class="alignnone size-large wp-image-40019" height="463" src="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-1-1024x661.png" style="" title="" width="717" srcset="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-1-1024x661.png 1024w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-1-300x194.png 300w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-1-768x495.png 768w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-1.png 1116w" sizes="(max-width: 717px) 100vw, 717px" />[/url]
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-1.png" rel="" style="" target="" title=""><img alt="" class="alignnone size-large wp-image-40020" height="392" src="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-1-1024x560.png" style="" title="" width="717" srcset="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-1-1024x560.png 1024w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-1-300x164.png 300w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-1-768x420.png 768w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-1.png 1126w" sizes="(max-width: 717px) 100vw, 717px" />[/url]
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   
</p>
<p>
   <span style="font-size:22px;"><strong>Professional Pete</strong></span>:
</p>
<p>
   Pete works in IT as a website developer for a local corporation.  He has worked up to a middle management position working for this corporation for over 20 years.  He grosses around $80K/year and he takes home about $60K after taxes, utilities, insurance etc.
</p>
<p>
   
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-2.png" rel="" style="" target="" title=""><img alt="" class="alignnone size-large wp-image-40021" height="489" src="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-2-1024x698.png" style="" title="" width="717" srcset="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-2-1024x698.png 1024w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-2-300x205.png 300w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-2-768x524.png 768w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-2.png 1088w" sizes="(max-width: 717px) 100vw, 717px" />[/url]
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-2.png" rel="" style="" target="" title=""><img alt="" class="alignnone size-large wp-image-40023" height="375" src="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-2-1024x536.png" style="" title="" width="717" srcset="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-2-1024x536.png 1024w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-2-300x157.png 300w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-2-768x402.png 768w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-2.png 1146w" sizes="(max-width: 717px) 100vw, 717px" />[/url]
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   
</p>
<p>
   <span style="font-size:22px;"><strong>Biz Owner Bill</strong></span>
</p>
<p>
   Bill owns an Auto Repair and Body Shop biz in Springfield, MO as well as a couple of smaller ancillary biznesses, an Auto Zone franchise and an interest in the local NASCAR Dirt Racing Track.  He was born to Dirt Poor sodbusters in the Ozarks and bootstrapped himself up like Horatio Algier to become a Bizness Leader in his community.  He complains all the time about his onerous tax burden when out drinking with his buddies.
</p>
<p>
   
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-3.png" rel="" style="" target="" title=""><img alt="" class="alignnone size-large wp-image-40024" height="498" src="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-3-1024x712.png" style="" title="" width="717" srcset="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-3-1024x712.png 1024w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-3-300x209.png 300w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-3-768x534.png 768w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Assets-3.png 1082w" sizes="(max-width: 717px) 100vw, 717px" />[/url]
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-3.png" rel="" style="" target="" title=""><img alt="" class="alignnone size-large wp-image-40026" height="400" src="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-3-1024x572.png" style="" title="" width="717" srcset="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-3-1024x572.png 1024w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-3-300x168.png 300w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-3-768x429.png 768w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-Calculator-Income-3.png 1110w" sizes="(max-width: 717px) 100vw, 717px" />[/url]
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   
</p>
<p>
   Now, as you can see, even if you are at the lower end of  relatively poor people in the FSoA living on a fixed pension and Social Security, relative to the rest of the Global population you are still doing quite well, Inside the top 7% in terms of Assets and 2% in terms of Income.  The cost of living is also quite different in Amerika than in say Mexico, so by itself this doesn't tell you how Rich or Poor you are for an Amerikan living in Amerika.  If you go ex-Pat, your status can change drasticlly of course.
</p>
<p>
   So in order to get a good idea where these Asset and Income levels put you at relative to the rest of Amerikans, you have to drill down and isolate just this portion of the table.  Below is how our 3 hypothetical subjects rank out relative to each other.  Fixed Income Frank is in <span style="color:#FF0000;"><strong>RED</strong></span>, Professional Pete is in <span style="color:#800080;"><strong>PURPLE</strong></span> and Biz Owner Bill is in <span style="color:#008000;"><strong>GREEN</strong></span>.  Assets calibrated from 8% on down in .2% increments, Income from 3% on down in .05% increments.
</p>
<p>
   
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-FSoA-Normalized.png" rel="" style="" target="" title=""><img alt="" class="alignnone size-large wp-image-40025" height="430" src="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-FSoA-Normalized-1024x614.png" style="" title="" width="717" srcset="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-FSoA-Normalized-1024x614.png 1024w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-FSoA-Normalized-300x180.png 300w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-FSoA-Normalized-768x461.png 768w, http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Wealth-FSoA-Normalized.png 1229w" sizes="(max-width: 717px) 100vw, 717px" />[/url]
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   
</p>
<p>
   Based on the above chart, it becomes quite easy to determine who is <strong>Rich</strong> and who is <strong>Poor</strong> in Amerika. <strong> Middle Class</strong> is a bit more difficult to peg, and can differ markedly depending whether you are looking at Assets or Income.
</p>
<p>
   Where do you fit in the Wealth Distribution curve for the World and for your country?  Do the numbers match your self-perception and self-identification?  How do you think this skewed Wealth Distribution can be rectified, or does it even need to be rectified?  Do you think Capitalism or Socialism is the better system to distribute diminishing Total Wealth on a resource depleted planet?  Do you have an alternative to suggest rather than one of these choices?  Come join us <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/forum/index.php" target="_blank"><strong>Inside the Diner</strong>[/url] to discuss thes important questions as the <strong>Collapse of Industrial Civilization</strong> bears down upon us all.
</p>
<p style="text-align: center;">
   
</p>
<p style="text-align: right;">
   
</p>
<p>
    </p>

I think fixed income Frank is close to underfunded and will have to watch his pennies closely.  I find Professional Pete must be living above his means because with that income his savings are weak; 20 years at $60000 he should be reading the Money Mustache guy! Business bill seems to be doing better than any grease monkey I've ever met and 90 percent of small business owners I know. I punched in my own numbers; Made me feel very well off.
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline K-Dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Sous Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 2956
    • View Profile
    • K-Dog

Wealth and income are two different things. This is a an important distinction, and you shouldn't conflate the two. This is something that amounts to a common mistake, not a way to get to the truth of anything. Only poor people think high net income equals wealth. Rich people know better than that.


Well, the Global Rich List website provides a calculator for both parameters, so clearly they think both are important measures for determining how rich you are.

What's the purpose?  To try and get some kind of reasonable definition of when you leave the Poor to become Middle Class, and when you leave the Middle Class to become Rich.  Until we have a definition we can agree on, we can't discuss the issue in any reasonable fashion.

RE

It already has served a purpose.  As I know a bit more about RE and Eddie than the average reader, and since I certainly know my own situation the calculator shows that the Capitalism/Socialism debate in the Diner is being conducted by white old farts all of whom are in the upper 2% of global income/assets.

Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 36736
    • View Profile

I think fixed income Frank is close to underfunded and will have to watch his pennies closely. [/quote]

Of course he is underfunded!  That's why he is in the "Poor" category! lol.  It is however the situation that about 40% of Amerikan retired people are in.

Quote
I find Professional Pete must be living above his means because with that income his savings are weak; 20 years at $60000 he should be reading the Money Mustache guy!

That's debatable.  Depends how often his cars broke down and whether his kids need orthodontics and whether he stayed healthy.

 
Quote
Business bill seems to be doing better than any grease monkey I've ever met and 90 percent of small business owners I know. I punched in my own numbers; Made me feel very well off.

Obviously, you have never known any Body Shop owners in Springfield, MO.  My nephew raced on the NASCAR dirt track there.  The guy who owned the majority interest in the track had the biggest car repair and body shop in SW Missouri.  He ran some nice carz.

Care to share with us where you fall in percentages on the Global Rich scale?

RE
SAVE AS MANY AS YOU CAN

Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 36736
    • View Profile

Wealth and income are two different things. This is a an important distinction, and you shouldn't conflate the two. This is something that amounts to a common mistake, not a way to get to the truth of anything. Only poor people think high net income equals wealth. Rich people know better than that.


Well, the Global Rich List website provides a calculator for both parameters, so clearly they think both are important measures for determining how rich you are.

What's the purpose?  To try and get some kind of reasonable definition of when you leave the Poor to become Middle Class, and when you leave the Middle Class to become Rich.  Until we have a definition we can agree on, we can't discuss the issue in any reasonable fashion.

RE

It already has served a purpose.  As I know a bit more about RE and Eddie than the average reader, and since I certainly know my own situation the calculator shows that the Capitalism/Socialism debate in the Diner is being conducted by white old farts all of whom are in the upper 2% of global income/assets.

Being in the upper2% Globally doesn't mean a whole lot when you have the Ameikan CoL to pay to live.  That's why you have to isolate that portion of the table to get comparitive measures of Amerikans.

RE
SAVE AS MANY AS YOU CAN

Offline knarf

  • Global Moderator
  • Master Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 11146
    • View Profile

Wealth and income are two different things. This is a an important distinction, and you shouldn't conflate the two. This is something that amounts to a common mistake, not a way to get to the truth of anything. Only poor people think high net income equals wealth. Rich people know better than that.


Well, the Global Rich List website provides a calculator for both parameters, so clearly they think both are important measures for determining how rich you are.

What's the purpose?  To try and get some kind of reasonable definition of when you leave the Poor to become Middle Class, and when you leave the Middle Class to become Rich.  Until we have a definition we can agree on, we can't discuss the issue in any reasonable fashion.

RE

This was about 2 years ago....



This one is about 4 years old



HUMANS ARE STILL EVOLVING! Our communities blog is at https://openmind693.wordpress.com

Offline Nearingsfault

  • Waitstaff
  • ***
  • Posts: 990
    • View Profile

I think fixed income Frank is close to underfunded and will have to watch his pennies closely.

Of course he is underfunded!  That's why he is in the "Poor" category! lol.  It is however the situation that about 40% of Amerikan retired people are in.

Quote
I find Professional Pete must be living above his means because with that income his savings are weak; 20 years at $60000 he should be reading the Money Mustache guy!

That's debatable.  Depends how often his cars broke down and whether his kids need orthodontics and whether he stayed healthy.

 
Quote
Business bill seems to be doing better than any grease monkey I've ever met and 90 percent of small business owners I know. I punched in my own numbers; Made me feel very well off.

Obviously, you have never known any Body Shop owners in Springfield, MO.  My nephew raced on the NASCAR dirt track there.  The guy who owned the majority interest in the track had the biggest car repair and body shop in SW Missouri.  He ran some nice carz.

Care to share with us where you fall in percentages on the Global Rich scale?

RE
[/quote]
1 percent income and 4 percent wealth.
It is skewed though as I included baby money in there. For 2 kids under 8 and as a single parent I receive about $1100 a month. Then there is health care which is not factored in; at my income I do not have to pay a supplement and receive full coverage but no dental which I self insure for the kids and I. Life insurance is odd I don't know how to calculate that. That and it reflects only the immediate picture since I spent many years earning far less.   
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 36736
    • View Profile
That and it reflects only the immediate picture since I spent many years earning far less.

Oh of course.  Same here.  I spent many years earning a good deal more, and a few years earning less.  It's only a measure of your current situation.

RE
SAVE AS MANY AS YOU CAN

Offline Eddie

  • Global Moderator
  • Master Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 17327
    • View Profile

Wealth and income are two different things. This is a an important distinction, and you shouldn't conflate the two. This is something that amounts to a common mistake, not a way to get to the truth of anything. Only poor people think high net income equals wealth. Rich people know better than that.


Well, the Global Rich List website provides a calculator for both parameters, so clearly they think both are important measures for determining how rich you are.

What's the purpose?  To try and get some kind of reasonable definition of when you leave the Poor to become Middle Class, and when you leave the Middle Class to become Rich.  Until we have a definition we can agree on, we can't discuss the issue in any reasonable fashion.

RE

It already has served a purpose.  As I know a bit more about RE and Eddie than the average reader, and since I certainly know my own situation the calculator shows that the Capitalism/Socialism debate in the Diner is being conducted by white old farts all of whom are in the upper 2% of global income/assets.

Right... in "global wealth inequality"  terms, it makes us look like we're about the same. Which isn't even true, really. But if you use some greatly skewed baseline that compares us both to a street kid in Pakistan, , it appears that way. Which was my point.

"Global Rich Lists" wouldn't even exist if somebody didn't have an agenda aimed at making western people more inclined to view grinding poverty in the 3rd world poverty as a "problem" needing to be "fixed". They aren't put up by real rich people trying to see if they're better off than their neighbors across the street.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 36736
    • View Profile
We're no closer here to getting a definition of Poor, Middle Class and Rich to work with.

RE
SAVE AS MANY AS YOU CAN

Offline Eddie

  • Global Moderator
  • Master Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 17327
    • View Profile
"Middle class" is a loaded word, just like 'rich' is a loaded word.

Most Americans are taught that if they have income above the poverty line, then that makes them middle class. Especially if they can hit that magic "median household income" number, which is now just over 60K.

Median net worth is about 97K. But older married people my age are worth 3 times that much.

How rich is that really? Well, if you put your 300k into a CD in the bank, it will return a whopping $700/ month...add that to your average Social Security check and it gets you to a whopping $2K per month.

So how middle class is that?  It's below the poverty line for a family of four. Spare me your middle class retirement. It sucks.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 36736
    • View Profile
Paranthetically, Harald Eia who gave the TED talk isn't a practicing professional sociologist who works in academia.  He graduated witha "Candidates Degree" which is roughly equivalent to a Master's.  He's a Documentary filmmaker and comedian on Norwegian TV who is obviously on his own agenda.

Harald Eia - Brainwash




Here's one of his documentary series:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/cVaTc15plVs" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/cVaTc15plVs</a>

You can find more of the episodes HERE.

RE
SAVE AS MANY AS YOU CAN

Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 36736
    • View Profile
"Middle class" is a loaded word, just like 'rich' is a loaded word.

Most Americans are taught that if they have income above the poverty line, then that makes them middle class. Especially if they can hit that magic "median household income" number, which is now just over 60K.

Median net worth is about 97K. But older married people my age are worth 3 times that much.

How rich is that really? Well, if you put your 300k into a CD in the bank, it will return a whopping $700/ month...add that to your average Social Security check and it gets you to a whopping $2K per month.

So how middle class is that?  It's below the poverty line for a family of four. Spare me your middle class retirement. It sucks.

They may be "loaded" words, but we use them all the time when discussing wealth, and are commonly used by politicians, media, protesters, etc.

If we don't have a definition of what they mean, discussing this topic is impossible.

We are no closer to such a definition.

RE
SAVE AS MANY AS YOU CAN

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
6 Replies
2460 Views
Last post June 15, 2014, 07:09:02 PM
by Palloy
Oil: A Fit of Peak

Started by Thomas Lewis Energy

1 Replies
448 Views
Last post May 10, 2015, 02:29:15 PM
by MKing
3 Replies
613 Views
Last post November 09, 2017, 04:10:10 AM
by RE