AuthorTopic: Thoughts on Liquid Doomstead Investing  (Read 2518 times)

Offline roamer

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Thoughts on Liquid Doomstead Investing
« on: March 10, 2013, 12:34:15 PM »
Trying to develop a prospectus and was going through some logic on how to pitch this to investors and found that I am not certain that a full buy in on behalf of investors is the only approach, nor even the best overall approach for us.  I think there are liquid win-win solutions for investors and doomstead diners that support our primary objectives.  Please read through the following and comment.

Background
It remains unclear exactly how long the dynamics of the current industrial paradigm will hold out, it is clear though that on a finite planet the unquestioned paradigm of growth can not hold and in many countries has begun to rupture.  The time has come to lay the seeds for the future, not just for yourself but for the survival of humanity.
We are entering a period of re-emergent but networked tribalism.  This dynamic is largely unavoidable, economic collapse pushes people back to their default family , friends or core tribal modes of organization.   What makes this period interesting is that through networking these groups efforts can be amplified through the power of the network.  As entropy and lack of resources for growth overwhelms the top heavy bloated hierarchies of industry these networks will be the likely successors.
The only real question is what type of networked tribe do you want to be part of?  We at the doomstead diner are constructing a networked tribe around a few very simple core goals.
Goals:
1. Develop resilient, simple post fossil infrastructure
   -Hydroponic, and aquaculture systems
   -Simple integrated thermal and electrical systems
   -Low cost mobile and permanent natural building techniques
2. Transform as much land as possible into productive perennial agriculture
   -Plant as many food trees as possible
   -Develop soil through intensive hugelculture and composting
   -Design water ways for maximum function and minimum run off on land
   -Develop rich productive pastures through proper intensively managed rotational grazing
3. Develop a Strong Resilient Networked Tribe
This is of course the most important goal.  By building the infrastructure and pioneering the land it is my hope that we can assemble multiple core groups of people networked across the country.  In a sense we are building the infrastructure so that we can build this tribe and network.  I’m of the field of dreams philosophy “if you build it they will come”.  We need concrete roots in the ground examples for the future tribes to ralley around.  We are planting seeds and building nuclei and hubs ultimately so that the tribe has openings to emerge more fully when the time comes.
Strategy:
The main barrier to development of this type of network is accessing the land to plant the seeds and development infrastructure for growth of this network.  It has been noted by several here that the older generation has the capital and the younger the time and bodies to do this work.  However investing in communally owned properties has and likely will remain a serious sticking point to most investors.  We are still within a paradigm where individual property ownership of commons remains the norm.  Undoubtedly this paradigm will need to be challenged, but the it is a hard nut to crack, do we really want to be the first??
I believe an alternative more effective strategy may exist to support our three primary goals.
People who want to invest and grow this type of network can do so risk free by simply financing outright a piece of property.  They finance it and have the final say, they can end their land use agreement at any time they want, which ends the potential “illiquidity” problem for them.  All we ask from them is the use of the land to support our sustainable agricultural methods for a contracted period of time on contract terms (ie animal killing is allowed)  It can be a win win proposition.  The landowner gets tenants that build topsoil, he can also hire said tenants to plant perennial agricultural and install long term resilient infrastructure on his property. 
What this requires though is that the pioneering members commit to being semi nomadic.  We also have to abandon notions of ever owning the land outright in the near future and instead come to see ourselves as seed planters for a different time period that has not quite yet arrived.

The upside to this could be significant.  If we develop successful semi nomadic farming techniques where we are comfortable with 1-3 yrs on a property during development phases, this could open the doors on many pieces of property.
Ultimately the more land we colonize with trees and pasture and resilient infrastructure the better our networked tribes odds of success.  It matters little to me who has a piece of paper claiming land ownership.  The real goal is that we must convert land to post industrial farming systems and simultaneously teach and develop a networked tribe.  If we restrict ourselves to investors who are willing to fork over on a permanent investment  we will greatly narrow our scope of potential impact.  If we open ourselves up as land colonizers and develop suitable tactics for surviving this type of semi nomadicism we could potentially gain access to many pieces of property and be able to bring in many people into our open, emergent tribal network.

Thoughts, problems, comments??

Offline RE

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Re: Thoughts on Liquid Doomstead Investing
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2013, 01:11:31 PM »
Thoughts I will share in a PM mostly.

Here I will just say right now ALL Real Estate, communal OR private is an Illiquid Investment.  It ain't easy to unload ANY property now, just as WHD, Surly, LD et al.  The folks selling raw property in Newton County aren't unloading it so fast either.

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Offline WHD

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Re: Thoughts on Liquid Doomstead Investing
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2013, 02:19:58 PM »
Roamer,

To be contrary:  as always, where does the money come from? Suppose landowner X says, "here is a piece of property, but I don't have any money to spend on the buildout." What about the daily necessities of the builders, seed, even minimal infrastructure, etc? If say, there are six of us building this, to walk away when we are done, off to new adventure - Who manages what we have created, once we are gone? Depending on the climate, food trees need love, esp when young. Garden beds need tending or they would be taken over by unfriendly annual grasses. Who manages the green houses/hydroponic/aqua culture set up? Who manages the animals? Whatever landowner isn't going to be able to handle it, and yet isn't necessarily going to invite whomever to come live there. I don't see how we can build all that without training those who are going to live there, in the management of it. It seems to me too, additionally, the ones with money to spend on such a set up are much LESS likely to be the type who want to manage it, particularly if their only or even primary role in the land was in purchasing it.   

I still don't see it, in any case, until you have set up a kind of home base/model. Proven yourself, so to speak, mastered the basics of the transition. People aren't going to pay you to experiment, generally, unless they expect some financial return leeching off your future performance,
 
Otherwise, yeah, I can totally see you as Chief of a little roving tribe of permaculture design wizards, someday - though maybe not until after the current paradigm is sufficiently bust.  :-\

Then again, if you participate in an emerging tribe, we document the whole process in video, blogs, etc, make a name for ourselves, the new paradigm might emerge for us in innumerable ways we can't yet imagine.  :icon_mrgreen:


Offline roamer

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Re: Thoughts on Liquid Doomstead Investing
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2013, 03:30:00 PM »
RE, I don't think productive farmland has any liquidity troubles, we are looking at currently non productive land which is why it won't sell.  Buying marginal land and having the soil upgraded on it and tree crops planted on it sounds like a wise investment in my book, if the markets stay around it should hold value better then anything else in depression, if they go away what better spot to try to survive collapse??

WHD,
We become a mobile tribe complete with full line of mobile infrastructure.  We come to property build a large earthworks thermal power station and dock to it with our yurts and trailers.  Similarly we roll out our hydroponic and aquaculture systems for temporary purposes. If the owner wants these systems built and maintained permanently we can do so, if he wants us off at any point it becomes his problem to figure out how to maintain it, we'd always be happy to consult or send a couple of our field techs out there for a fair rate to keep things up.  You are right if they are going to invest in trees they had better be ready to invest in making certain they are taken care of until they are strong enough to fend for themselves.  I will say though that once rugged tree crops like hazlenuts establish themselves they can fend for themselves quite well. 
There is off course a market for animals so they would come and go with us. The pastures would just get a little wild without them but not the end of the world for the owner.

I actually like the economics of being a seasonal pastoral nomad.  Rotationaly graze and make high end cheeses all summer, slaughter and make high end sausages cured meats all fall, sell off remaining herd and migrate south to a desert for rent free warm yurt living all winter.  No machinery needed, no hay to make, just seasonal buy in and sell off.  It'd work because we could more less much off the industrial ag system to mooch off of and not have to incur costs of keeping herd over winter, we'd pay a bit of a premium on spring buy in, but it'd work.  It'd also be building our clients soil since we'd have such low overheads and could afford to not push the land.

I do agree with you both though that demonstration of Doomstead Core Site is first step.  Just want to make certain the vision and discussion does not stall on one doomstead.  This thread is a seed and reminder for future discussions.

Offline WHD

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Re: Thoughts on Liquid Doomstead Investing
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2013, 06:15:07 PM »
Quote
I do agree with you both though that demonstration of Doomstead Core Site is first step.  Just want to make certain the vision and discussion does not stall on one doomstead.  This thread is a seed and reminder for future discussions.

I'm trying to imagine the caravan. Yurts, hydroponics equipment, greenhouse equipment, fish tank liner/materials, fish, gardening equipment, thermal earth station material, people, chickens, etc. Sounds interesting, as long as there are fossil fuels, working vehicles and some relative security. As long as you have that, I imagine with the proper crew you could travel as you like, where you like - if you can find land to host you. Which you might. An idea is a seed, and I think that seed has a mutation that could be viable. :icon_sunny:

Offline RE

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Re: Thoughts on Liquid Doomstead Investing
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2013, 06:44:14 PM »
Quote
I do agree with you both though that demonstration of Doomstead Core Site is first step.  Just want to make certain the vision and discussion does not stall on one doomstead.  This thread is a seed and reminder for future discussions.

I'm trying to imagine the caravan. Yurts, hydroponics equipment, greenhouse equipment, fish tank liner/materials, fish, gardening equipment, thermal earth station material, people, chickens, etc. Sounds interesting, as long as there are fossil fuels, working vehicles and some relative security. As long as you have that, I imagine with the proper crew you could travel as you like, where you like - if you can find land to host you. Which you might. An idea is a seed, and I think that seed has a mutation that could be viable. :icon_sunny:

Probably would all fit in a Big Rig.  Knew that CDL would come in handy someday.  LOL.

Seriously, the Polynesians took all their domesticated crops and animals with them in their canoes. So when the gas runs dry the best idea would be to work the length of a navigable river.  On the occassions you need to transport overland, you do it like the Vikings did, portage the boats.

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Offline roamer

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Re: Thoughts on Liquid Doomstead Investing
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2013, 07:34:25 PM »
WHD, I think the paradox of the end of the oil age is that we will have oil all the way until the end.  Used to dream about how to retrofit vehicles with wood burning steam engines, but have come to think very differently about it lately.  Society and the economy will crumble long before the pumps run dry.  I think too when you consider that even if we moved bi annually across say 3000 miles the total fuel bill would stay below $2000, commuters have it worse rent + fuel bill.  As to weight space concerns, one family a one ton diesel truck a 35' vehicle and 26k gross to play with, I'd have no problem being a mobile pastoralist. I basically lived on the road for three years of my life with four guys building towers, it is not a problem at all, I happen to love it.  If I could be transported in time I'd be living the ultimate nomadic pastoralists dream.

RE, Now you are even more steps ahead in the timeline than me.  By the time we are to boats and rivers though I think the end of oil has come and gone.  I admit though I got a soft spot in my heart for viking tactics, they did after all briefly set up shop in north america all via boats, they were pretty damn resilient pastoralists as a whole too.  Jared Diamond in Guns Germs and Steel has it wrong about them in Greenland too, they adapted and lived there for 300 years, about as long as the US will last in infinitely worse conditions, furthermore they didn't collapse there, evidence shows they just went back to iceland.  For northern climates I think old norse culture has alot to teach us about resilient post fossil living strategies, from architecture to agriculture to culture and spirituality.  They adapted there whole culture to embrace the hardship of the lands they occupied, what little is recorded is incredibly beautifully deep and epic and yes often tragic.  I should start a separate thread on norse pastoralism actually it is quite relevant because they survived without much soil and with relatively high populations almost solely through pastoral-ism.   America never developed efficient pastoralism because we just expanded west and continued our wasteful farming practices and then proceeded to get bailed out by industrialisation.  Our culture has zilch in its memory banks for the type of ag we are going to have to practice in the future. 



Offline luciddreams

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Re: Thoughts on Liquid Doomstead Investing
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2013, 07:39:35 PM »
very interesting thread.  I talked to Roamer tonight before I read it.  So we talked about a lot of what he wrote here already.  His ideas are gold IMO.  Pure gold that we, as a group, are manipulating with our minds influence on reality...collectively at this point.  We are using the Matrix's blind spot to ensure a viable future for our progeny.  This is 21st century, post-petroleum, networked tribalism as a seed that is just now germinating.  We are all participating in something that couldn't have been envisioned before.  At least not the way it's being expressed. 

At any rate.  Roamer will be here Saturday for us to figure out how we can initiate the first beginnings of a Foxstead with Diners living at it here, on the property I'm living on now.  There is 100 acres or so (locked up in in-law, in-law Whoville land) that is just pasture right now overtaken with local "weeds."  Dude just pays to have it bush hogged twice a year to keep it in agriculture land for tax purposes...although I'm not exactly sure how he's doing that.  I just know if it loses "agriculture" status, it brings a heavy back tax fee to the tune of 40,000 or so. 

I talked to this man before about keeping goats on the land.  I was standing at the edge of my back yard leaning on the chain link fence, and he was on the other side...his side...and we were watching the guy he was paying to use his tractor to bush hog the land.  When I asked him about the goats, the first thing he said, was that he'd "have to see a profit from the git go." 

I imagine we could work a deal.  Especially since the land used to belong to his daddy, who's house I'm living in now.  I'm tellin' you...you can't make this shit up.  It even comes complete with an Evangelical, bible tote'n, snake handlin' Satan worshiper.  I met his ass...he called the cops on me recently because his sister (my wife's geriatric aunt) didn't answer the phone. 

But pending things fall through in the Palookaville sector of Whoville, we'll still have enough on my 1.6 acres to get some Earth Work Power prototypes off the ground...as well as some rogue permaculture.  Not to mention I have 4 acres of forest land in the middle of an upstate area we could potentially play with. 

Point is, not to get too specific, seeing as how we have a paying thread on the details of said plans, and due to the nature of these gold filtered ideas, that the Foxstead is about to be official on my land.  Roamer, GM, and I will know for certain this Sunday.  So stay tuned to the Foxstead channel.  I'm trying to juggle the Foxstead reality with the my ass has 13 hours of college to balance, along with permaculture, daddy, husband, and daddy again.  Good things are going to happen. 

If you care about the future, and you are reading this rather peculiar thread, you should want to help make these ideas a reality.   :icon_sunny:

bob

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Re: Thoughts on Liquid Doomstead Investing
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2013, 09:20:54 PM »
All good points all round here.

LD, Hard for me to get my head around a bible totin snake handling satanist who calls the cops on you because someone doesnt answer the phone!? It must be almost too tempting to knock him out. Anyway if you can work around the asshole, maybe try and negotiate a 1 yr lease on the 100 acres over the fence. That way you only need to raise in the short term the capital for that year, all your buidings go on your side of the fence that way you dont break the pasture only zoning and you dont lose your buildings if you stop leasing.

Sorry I dont follow the protected (from the poor) thread dedicated to working out a way to help the poor to prep up lol. Anyway i dont see why such details should not be private not everyones business, so not a criticism of it, just irony doesnt escape.

WHD makes a good point that the owners of any doomstead need to be trained in its ongoing use, cant have plants and animals dying once the DD crew are gone.

Roamer makes a good point in cleared land being worth much more than bush blocks without established water etc and I believe the rest of his idea is quite sound. If the Ashram was the first project of that type,  the chairman would pay for everything and send the DD consultants back with a few bucks to pay for leasing fields or the gear they need to do other jobs. Thinking of how many people going out of biz in the US 2nd hand pickups and tools are probably going very cheap. You could also have a good demo and testimonial.


Offline RE

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Re: Thoughts on Liquid Doomstead Investing
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2013, 09:43:19 PM »


Sorry I dont follow the protected (from the poor) thread dedicated to working out a way to help the poor to prep up lol. Anyway i dont see why such details should not be private not everyones business, so not a criticism of it, just irony doesnt escape.

The details gotta be private for many reasons.

First off, we discuss ACTUAL LOCATIONS with PRICES, so some Pigman Reader seeing a Good Deal could scarf up the property before the Poor Folks nail it down.

Second, we discuss Ideas which are Proprietary Information.  Since Copyright Law is for the RICH to protect their ideas, Poor Folks gotta keep their Hot Sauce Recipes SECRET. LOL.

Finally, we are going through many False Leads, Dreamy Hopefullness, Depression & Disappointment, very Manic-Depressive on Foxsteader really. LOL.  Until something is nailed down, we don't need to subject the world at large to the Mood Swings.  :icon_sunny:

Finally here, WTF do you post as a Guest? Just join already.  At your posting rate, you'll earn a FREE Backroom Key in a few months.

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bob

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Re: Thoughts on Liquid Doomstead Investing
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2013, 10:01:33 PM »
Dont get me wrong RE, I understand all the planning details dont need to be everyones business. I had 800 posts up when I decided to take a back seat, Im happy to hear the announcements and just post on the public threads, Only problem is cant get message.

Offline RE

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Re: Thoughts on Liquid Doomstead Investing
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2013, 10:20:35 PM »
Dont get me wrong RE, I understand all the planning details dont need to be everyones business. I had 800 posts up when I decided to take a back seat, Im happy to hear the announcements and just post on the public threads, Only problem is cant get message.

I'll never comprehend that one. That is like Nobody Quitting & Joining, Quitting & Joining.  If you get ticked off, just sign out.  Even GO who I Napalmed didn't Quit, he's still on the Member List.  Makes no sense whatsoever.

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Offline WHD

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Re: Thoughts on Liquid Doomstead Investing
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2013, 10:32:50 PM »
Quote
WHD, I think the paradox of the end of the oil age is that we will have oil all the way until the end.  Used to dream about how to retrofit vehicles with wood burning steam engines, but have come to think very differently about it lately.  Society and the economy will crumble long before the pumps run dry.

Most of the oil that continues to exist, I actually expect to stay in the ground. So much of our oil now is coming from extreme drilling/etc techniques in impossible places, which if the financial credit markets go into systemic free fall, that could mean the end of extreme oil extraction, in the wake of the social chaos resulting from a few billion clueless people who think cheap fuel is a God given right, faced with intractable shortages. The $2000 fuel bill you mentioned assumes everything stays more or less normal, which I'm not assuming people like you and me are going to have access to oil, all that much longer. Esp if global war commences exponentially post haste. Anyway, don't forget about the wood-fired steam thing (except for the fact that I can imagine much of north America deforested to heat people's crackerbox homes, post oil crunch, post fracking bubble pop.)  :icon_mrgreen: Imagine climate change when humanity starts to revert back to coal and wood. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention the effect of climate change in all this. Oh, and all those asteroids and what not that seem to be whizzing by and crashing into us with disturbing regularity of late. Keep in mind, mass extinctions keep to a rough 65 million year cycle. LOL

Cheery thoughts, before bed tonight. Don't know if I'm right, just writing the thoughts as they come to me.


Offline RE

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Re: Thoughts on Liquid Doomstead Investing
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2013, 11:28:16 PM »
Oh, and all those asteroids and what not that seem to be whizzing by and crashing into us with disturbing regularity of late. Keep in mind, mass extinctions keep to a rough 65 million year cycle. LOL

I'm cool with the Asteroid long as Ground Zero for Touchdown is the Cabin.

What a way for a Doomer to go to the Great Beyond! Be the FIRST Homo Sapiens to be Wiped Out in the Mass Extinction of the Species!  Talk about winning the Doom LOTTO!  LOL.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/y4dhvm9ivGQ" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/y4dhvm9ivGQ</a>

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Offline luciddreams

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Re: Thoughts on Liquid Doomstead Investing
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2013, 05:47:59 AM »
Sorry I dont follow the protected (from the poor) thread dedicated to working out a way to help the poor to prep up lol. Anyway i dont see why such details should not be private not everyones business, so not a criticism of it, just irony doesnt escape.

I see the irony, but the Foxstead planning is being kept private for some pretty obvious reasons.  We've got to make this thing work before we can help anyone. 

 

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