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Offline Palloy2

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Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2020, 09:53:19 PM »
Eddie: Our old friend Palloy thought that.....and he could still be proven correct.

Cam: I don't think I've heard of this Palloy guy. Was he once a regular on the Diner?

Palloy: Yes.  Still chopping wood and carrying water, although at MUCH slower rates and lighter loads.
I NEVER hated Eddie, I just am completely opposed to his mindset and the Great Amerikan Dream.
Despite what he says to the contrary, he was totally absorbed into the Amerikan propaganda :
work hard, "one of the good things about being self-employed is not being forced to retire at 70",
go to church every week, commies are bad, Putin is a thug, Kim is an inexperienced and unpredictable leader,
Iran's leaders are religious fanatics, Venezuela is authoritarian, (I forget what's wrong with Cuba, but they are BAD too).
He even voted for Trump.

The Collapse is going to be SLOW, but different rates across the world, and from multiple causes, and DD will be discussing them for ever.
One cause will be Peak Oil and Peak Energy, the transition to Renewables can never be completed, because there is not enough Energy to spare.
Another cause will be Climate Change.  Climate Change won't render the whole world uninhabitable overnight,
but it will cause increasing frequency of droughts, wildfires, floods, cyclones, coastal inundation and frost in springtime.
"We must support our farmers/fire-fighters/flood-rescuers" until crop-failure, fire and flood insurance becomes too expensive.
"We must protect the people from all infectious diseases", until we can't.
"We must ensure everyone has enough to eat, and clean water to drink", until we don't.
"We must have law and order", until the Police don't turn up for work.
"We must found a colony on Mars", until we realize the energy budget for it all,
and how much Martian "gold" will cost per ton delivered here on earth.

The charts for World GDP and World Energy Consumption over the last 200 years are identical.
About 90% of Energy Consumption is from fossil fuels, which creates GHG emissions that cause Climate Change.
So to stop Climate Change, we need to LOWER GDP.  Its an indisputable fact.
Ask Eddie, he'll tell you everything you need to know about why that's untrue and absurd, but its true all the same.
The only solution is to lower GDP, but it will never happen because the owners of the means of production (including propaganda) won't allow it.
Democracy has failed to do the will of the majority in every country where it has been tried, and it will fail over and over again in the future.
Switch off the electricity and see how fast it collapses.
"The State is a body of armed men."

Offline RE

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Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2020, 10:18:06 PM »
Eddie: Our old friend Palloy thought that.....and he could still be proven correct.

Cam: I don't think I've heard of this Palloy guy. Was he once a regular on the Diner?

Palloy: Yes.  Still chopping wood and carrying water, although at MUCH slower rates and lighter loads.
I NEVER hated Eddie, I just am completely opposed to his mindset and the Great Amerikan Dream.
Despite what he says to the contrary, he was totally absorbed into the Amerikan propaganda :
work hard, "one of the good things about being self-employed is not being forced to retire at 70",
go to church every week, commies are bad, Putin is a thug, Kim is an inexperienced and unpredictable leader,
Iran's leaders are religious fanatics, Venezuela is authoritarian, (I forget what's wrong with Cuba, but they are BAD too).
He even voted for Trump.

The Collapse is going to be SLOW, but different rates across the world, and from multiple causes, and DD will be discussing them for ever.
One cause will be Peak Oil and Peak Energy, the transition to Renewables can never be completed, because there is not enough Energy to spare.
Another cause will be Climate Change.  Climate Change won't render the whole world uninhabitable overnight,
but it will cause increasing frequency of droughts, wildfires, floods, cyclones, coastal inundation and frost in springtime.
"We must support our farmers/fire-fighters/flood-rescuers" until crop-failure, fire and flood insurance becomes too expensive.
"We must protect the people from all infectious diseases", until we can't.
"We must ensure everyone has enough to eat, and clean water to drink", until we don't.
"We must have law and order", until the Police don't turn up for work.
"We must found a colony on Mars", until we realize the energy budget for it all,
and how much Martian "gold" will cost per ton delivered here on earth.

The charts for World GDP and World Energy Consumption over the last 200 years are identical.
About 90% of Energy Consumption is from fossil fuels, which creates GHG emissions that cause Climate Change.
So to stop Climate Change, we need to LOWER GDP.  Its an indisputable fact.
Ask Eddie, he'll tell you everything you need to know about why that's untrue and absurd, but its true all the same.
The only solution is to lower GDP, but it will never happen because the owners of the means of production (including propaganda) won't allow it.
Democracy has failed to do the will of the majority in every country where it has been tried, and it will fail over and over again in the future.
Switch off the electricity and see how fast it collapses.

Palloy!  You're BACK!  :icon_sunny:

That was one long fucking Walkabout!

RE
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Offline Eddie

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Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2020, 10:19:02 AM »
Eddie: Our old friend Palloy thought that.....and he could still be proven correct.

Cam: I don't think I've heard of this Palloy guy. Was he once a regular on the Diner?

Palloy: Yes.  Still chopping wood and carrying water, although at MUCH slower rates and lighter loads.
I NEVER hated Eddie, I just am completely opposed to his mindset and the Great Amerikan Dream.
Despite what he says to the contrary, he was totally absorbed into the Amerikan propaganda :
work hard, "one of the good things about being self-employed is not being forced to retire at 70",
go to church every week, commies are bad, Putin is a thug, Kim is an inexperienced and unpredictable leader,
Iran's leaders are religious fanatics, Venezuela is authoritarian, (I forget what's wrong with Cuba, but they are BAD too).
He even voted for Trump.

The Collapse is going to be SLOW, but different rates across the world, and from multiple causes, and DD will be discussing them for ever.
One cause will be Peak Oil and Peak Energy, the transition to Renewables can never be completed, because there is not enough Energy to spare.
Another cause will be Climate Change.  Climate Change won't render the whole world uninhabitable overnight,
but it will cause increasing frequency of droughts, wildfires, floods, cyclones, coastal inundation and frost in springtime.
"We must support our farmers/fire-fighters/flood-rescuers" until crop-failure, fire and flood insurance becomes too expensive.
"We must protect the people from all infectious diseases", until we can't.
"We must ensure everyone has enough to eat, and clean water to drink", until we don't.
"We must have law and order", until the Police don't turn up for work.
"We must found a colony on Mars", until we realize the energy budget for it all,
and how much Martian "gold" will cost per ton delivered here on earth.

The charts for World GDP and World Energy Consumption over the last 200 years are identical.
About 90% of Energy Consumption is from fossil fuels, which creates GHG emissions that cause Climate Change.
So to stop Climate Change, we need to LOWER GDP.  Its an indisputable fact.
Ask Eddie, he'll tell you everything you need to know about why that's untrue and absurd, but its true all the same.
The only solution is to lower GDP, but it will never happen because the owners of the means of production (including propaganda) won't allow it.
Democracy has failed to do the will of the majority in every country where it has been tried, and it will fail over and over again in the future.
Switch off the electricity and see how fast it collapses.

Like every communist I ever met, you can only see the world in black-and-white. Your world is a fucking comic book.

To you, I'm the poster boy for a system you've hated for most of your life. In reality, I'm just a guy who grew up in that system, and tried to make the best of it. If I'd grown up under some other system, I'd have no doubt done the same.

Some people live their lives rebelling against something or other........and fighting for the changes they want to see...and on and on...and that's fine...but in my view it doesn't make them superior.....and it damn sure doesn't help them get along in the world...unless they ride the Revolution into power.....then they, without fail, become instantly corrupted......and just like the oligarchs they threw out.

Retirement is a scam and you know it. it's the brass ring for the working stiff, something to keep him getting up and getting to the coffee pot so he can show up for his meaningless job for 40 years.

Do you think Picasso wanted to retire at  65? Or Da Vinci?

How about your homeboys Stalin and Mao?

Nah, they were too busy causing the only mass-die-offs in modern history to retire. Too busy breaking more eggs to make some more omelets for the Workers.

Look at what they left.

Russia is run by the world's richest thug. His cut...half of everything.

China is run by the politburo using capitalist money to pay the workers their $5 a day. Progress (but lots of pollution).

And you did and still do hate me, or at least what I represent. Actually you always MAKE me into what you WANT to hate. You don't even see the real me. Nor do you wish to. You just need a bad guy in your comic book.

Btw, I did NOT vote for Trump, never supported Trump, and consider him more dangerous than Kim and all the Ayatollahs put together. I voted for Obama the first time....but he disappointed me mightily.....and so I wrote in a throw-away vote for Ron Paul in 2012. Obama won anyway. I voted for Clinton in 2016.....even though I really, really detested her and most of what she stood for.. I seldom am happy about voting. It's an exercise in frustration. There are never any good choices. I vote for the less bad..as best I can tell what that is. Often it's almost a toss-up.

And.....I'm not a Christian...at least not in the conventional sense of the word......although I was brought up in that religion. I'm not a participant in any organized religion, nor am I really a member of any organized political machine. I distrust most groups. I don't like decisions that are made by committee, and  I try to go my own way most of the time.

I vote against the worst idiots I see running for office and generally watch them get elected, like Trump, and Bush before him.

Quote
The Collapse is going to be SLOW, but different rates across the world, and from multiple causes, and DD will be discussing them for ever.
One cause will be Peak Oil and Peak Energy, the transition to Renewables can never be completed, because there is not enough Energy to spare.
Another cause will be Climate Change.  Climate Change won't render the whole world uninhabitable overnight,
but it will cause increasing frequency of droughts, wildfires, floods, cyclones, coastal inundation and frost in springtime.

All correct in my estimation. If you've been reading me, nothing I've said would contradict any of that.

I suspect you you just set up some kind of alert that let you know someone (me) mentioned you here. Or......have you been lurking the whole time?

I see that rumors of your death must have been greatly exaggerated.   lol..

Good. I'm glad. I admire you personally, in spite of your politics, which annoy me. For most of my life I tried to  ignore politics. But it isn't easy.

I mentioned you because it was always my impression you had a good handle on the IPCC climate models, and understood them way better than anyone here, especially me, since I never paid them the slightest attention. I figured the reality was worse than they were predicting and McPherson was probably more or less right.

And I figured CO2 would keep increasing because BAU would never voluntarily power down....no way, no how.

As it turns out I was wrong about my first assumption....so far the second assumption has held true. I still think most of the powering down will be forced....but it might come (as I remember you suggesting) in time to prevent the very worst of climate change.

Since you haven't been around......I finally decided to study the climate models and look at the data..because the media is nothing but lies....on both sides.

Turns out they weren't too bad, and maybe the mid-range predictions are closer to reality...at least so far. It is very early......I just wanted to know if climate change under the BAU scenarios really was going to lead to near-term extinction...since the XR people are now out there managing to convince the Great Herd of humans that it's about to happen.

My conclusion...the evidence suggests what you just wrote above....if climate change does  kill the entire human race, it will be slow and not in our lifetimes...probably not my kids lifetimes either.

The XR people aren't well educated on climate. They're just more communists trying to use the "climate issue" to further their rebellion against Global Capitalism....which is the real target.

Do you really think I'm a fan of global capitalism? Think again. I'm just not a joiner of stupid lost causes. Or a willing foolish participant in civil insurrections.

I go my own way. I didn't create global capitalism, and I'm not particularly a willing participant...any more than anyone else who is in any kind of local commerce or local service position. I was born into this time and place and circumstance.

People like you...want to USE people like me......to achieve your own ends. You want to turn people into cannon fodder for your revolution. And if the means to your ends leads to me getting  killed out on the barricades, well...you have no trouble justifying that.

It's completely  Machiavellian, your approach to political change.  Unfortunately, I wasn't born stupid, nor am I the typical uneducated schmuck.......typing and cut-and-pasting other peoples ideas on the internet.

Go ahead and try to turn young Cam if you can......you have lots of help here......the Don Quixotes of Doom here are all socialists looking to provide the same outcome for everyone.

Welcome back to the Diner. I'm about done with this forum.  You can have my place at the table.

I've been investigating collapse for about ten years. I have a much different view than when first read about PO in 2010..and started trying to figure out what it all meant. I have a pretty good handle on where we're headed, both short term and longer term....and I'm tired of arguing with fools...... and also very tired of being misrepresented by knaves....you are no fool........but you are a knave.

But...nevertheless.......I'm very glad you're still alive and kicking.

I'd appreciate an update on what you make out of the current real climate literature and the current models...and the way they fit the data so far. And what you think about tipping points...and if we've reached some of them (I think we have on the ice) and how that is likely to play out. My guess......in relatively smaller ways now....but much bigger ways in a couple of hundred years.

You never lied about that stuff, I don't think. I always respected your writing on PO and on climate.




« Last Edit: February 21, 2020, 10:29:16 AM by Eddie »
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Palloy2

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Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2020, 06:30:43 PM »
Quote
Eddie: People like you...want to USE people like me......to achieve your own ends. You want to turn people into cannon fodder for your revolution. And if the means to your ends leads to me getting  killed out on the barricades, well...you have no trouble justifying that.

It's completely  Machiavellian, your approach to political change.

Complete bullshit. I argued AGAINST people clashing with police in the streets, where the set pieces always favour the well-armed, well-trained squads.  I argue in favour of using darkness and quietness to go to an obvious government target and fire-bombing it and returning home un-arrested and un-harmed.  Wanting to turn people into cannon fodder is pure evil, and its disgusting that you would ever think of saying that.

Quote
How about your homeboys Stalin and Mao?

As I have said repeatedly, they have had a very bad press from the CIA and hence historians.  You have spent your whole life hearing the same pack of lies, and you haven't recognised it for the propaganda it was.  You believe it, all of it. 

You think Mao was a Communist, but he never did a thing that communists would want to do, apart from leading a "people's revolution".  What communist society would have ultra low wages ?  What communist society would trade pollution for jobs ?
But China has to remain a communist society in the Capitalist propaganda, because that makes them BAD people and OK to kill.

Stalin started with a broken, bankrupt, starving country and made it into the #2 superpower.  Free health and education, including university level.  He won WW2 (compare the areas of German control taken).  US outrage at his keeping of that territory caused the Cold War, while the US kept all it took and called it NATO, and STILL DOES.  The only thing he didn't do was make trendy new trash, which the sheep wanted.

Putin is currently the world's greatest statesman.  Imagine Trump or Clinton or Sanders talking to Erdogan about his Syrian push for the Turkish Empire.   Upon the breakdown of Ukraine, Putin took back the Crimea (given away by Kruschev in 1954), where the major naval base of Sebastopol is, WITHOUT KILLING ANYBODY, and was accused of "Aggression" !  The US of course has never been guilty of aggression, has it?

Eddie just swallows all the CIA propaganda about Putin being a thug.  He goes along with his ultra-capitalist Texan community, and never questions "the authorities".

Quote
... if climate change does  kill the entire human race, it will be slow and not in our lifetimes...

If a Peak Oil collapse occurs first, we might escape the worst of the Climate Change collapse, but otherwise the CC collapse will cause a collapse of Capitalism (via insurance premiums and infrastructure destr
Quote
uction).  The climate models work best for short-term predictions, then medium-term predictions and long-term predictions are silly, because we don't know what will happen and can't model it.  There are no "tipping points" seen in any of the models being modeled now.

Quote
You want to turn people into cannon fodder for your revolution.
Quote
It's completely  Machiavellian, your approach to political change.
Quote
you are a knave.
Er, what ?
Quote
I suspect you you just set up some kind of alert that let you know someone (me) mentioned you here.
No.

"The State is a body of armed men."

Offline Eddie

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Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2020, 07:07:51 AM »
Sorry I misrepresented you....so as you say.....you really want people like me to bomb government buildings.....like Timothy McVey, more or less. But with the aim of saving the planett and building better government.  Sounds a lot like the Unabomber Manifesto.....

So I wouldn't die on the barricades....I'd be shot by police as a terrorist or I'd rot in prison. No thank you anyway.


Fools and knaves....after ten years of studying collapse. I put most of the known writers on the subject into one of those two categories. Most are fools, pursuing some ideal. Don Quixotes of Doom is what I call them. The woods are full of 'em. Almost all the cut-and posters here fit that mold.

But there are some I'd call knaves....knaves have an agenda.....to get something from the people they influence. Those would include anybody who runs a site that has ad income, begs for Patreon support, or (like yourself) tries to organize people into armed groups  or into committing various acts of violent resistance to BAU.

Screen Shot 2020 02 23 at 8 57 53 AM
Screen Shot 2020 02 23 at 8 57 53 AM


My definition includes people who are willing to use collapse (which is a real circumstance we all have to deal with) as a lever arm to get people to support some highly questionable agenda they see as fundamental, either to their own ideals, or to obtain money, or both.

You, sir, are  a knave. A manipulator.

You came here originally hoping to find some willing eco-terrorists you could assist in carrying out some monkey-wrenching. You, in your house in the jungle, would have never been much at risk.....too bad nobody who read you here was willing. The idealists here are not young and hot-headed...and I'm not even an idealist....so it was never going to be me. I'm just glad there wasn't some dumb schmuck more than willing to participate. Maybe you've had better luck elsewhere. I hope not.

No alert? Maybe you dropped in at random a few days after I mentioned you for the first time in a year?  Amazing coincidence, I guess.

Global Capitalism is going to collapse regardless. You (and XR) need not worry. If you want to see a chart that's gone exponential, that's the one to look at. Wealth inequality is completely unsustainable.

Wealth is not merely moving uphill. It's all concentrating at the very nose-bleed tip-top. The .01% of the 1 %. At this rate, soon, one guy will own everything.

Therefore, something will change. If consumers have no money to drive the engine of global capitalism, it seizes.

 I'm not sure how it happens exactly. Perhaps the socialists really will have their day soon, and at the ballot box.....if the conservatives (Republicans here) don't completely corrupt the constitution . They are well on their way to trying to subvert the actual election process, rather than just being satisfied with getting most of what they want, most of the time. It's been mostly accomplished at the state level with Koch money, while the Democrats were busy diversifying themselves into irrelevancy. We're about to be Brazil.

I now think we see the US continuing to limp along....while much of the world gets de-powered in a cascading waterfall of collapse.

The rest of this century will see more mass migrations that we can even begin to think about....it's just starting.....







What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline azozeo

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Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2020, 09:06:09 AM »
Quote
Eddie: People like you...want to USE people like me......to achieve your own ends. You want to turn people into cannon fodder for your revolution. And if the means to your ends leads to me getting  killed out on the barricades, well...you have no trouble justifying that.

It's completely  Machiavellian, your approach to political change.

Complete bullshit. I argued AGAINST people clashing with police in the streets, where the set pieces always favour the well-armed, well-trained squads.  I argue in favour of using darkness and quietness to go to an obvious government target and fire-bombing it and returning home un-arrested and un-harmed.  Wanting to turn people into cannon fodder is pure evil, and its disgusting that you would ever think of saying that.

Quote
How about your homeboys Stalin and Mao?

As I have said repeatedly, they have had a very bad press from the CIA and hence historians.  You have spent your whole life hearing the same pack of lies, and you haven't recognised it for the propaganda it was.  You believe it, all of it. 

You think Mao was a Communist, but he never did a thing that communists would want to do, apart from leading a "people's revolution".  What communist society would have ultra low wages ?  What communist society would trade pollution for jobs ?
But China has to remain a communist society in the Capitalist propaganda, because that makes them BAD people and OK to kill.

Stalin started with a broken, bankrupt, starving country and made it into the #2 superpower.  Free health and education, including university level.  He won WW2 (compare the areas of German control taken).  US outrage at his keeping of that territory caused the Cold War, while the US kept all it took and called it NATO, and STILL DOES.  The only thing he didn't do was make trendy new trash, which the sheep wanted.

Putin is currently the world's greatest statesman.  Imagine Trump or Clinton or Sanders talking to Erdogan about his Syrian push for the Turkish Empire.   Upon the breakdown of Ukraine, Putin took back the Crimea (given away by Kruschev in 1954), where the major naval base of Sebastopol is, WITHOUT KILLING ANYBODY, and was accused of "Aggression" !  The US of course has never been guilty of aggression, has it?

Eddie just swallows all the CIA propaganda about Putin being a thug.  He goes along with his ultra-capitalist Texan community, and never questions "the authorities".

Quote
... if climate change does  kill the entire human race, it will be slow and not in our lifetimes...

If a Peak Oil collapse occurs first, we might escape the worst of the Climate Change collapse, but otherwise the CC collapse will cause a collapse of Capitalism (via insurance premiums and infrastructure destr
Quote
uction).  The climate models work best for short-term predictions, then medium-term predictions and long-term predictions are silly, because we don't know what will happen and can't model it.  There are no "tipping points" seen in any of the models being modeled now.

Quote
You want to turn people into cannon fodder for your revolution.
Quote
It's completely  Machiavellian, your approach to political change.
Quote
you are a knave.
Er, what ?
Quote
I suspect you you just set up some kind of alert that let you know someone (me) mentioned you here.
No.

Somebody SLAP ME......... Palloy is vertical. Quick, check goog earth for the red sea parting in 2020

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/OqCTq3EeDcY&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/OqCTq3EeDcY&fs=1</a>


Palloy, Violence begets violence. They're are better choices to beat these parasitic psychopaths
I know exactly what you mean. Let me tell you why youíre here. Youíre here because you know something. What you know you canít explain, but you feel it. Youíve felt it your entire life, that thereís something wrong with the world.
You donít know what it is but its there, like a splinter in your mind

Offline RE

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Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2020, 10:19:05 AM »

Fools and knaves....after ten years of studying collapse. I put most of the known writers on the subject into one of those two categories. Most are fools, pursuing some ideal. Don Quixotes of Doom is what I call them. The woods are full of 'em. Almost all the cut-and posters here fit that mold.

But there are some I'd call knaves....knaves have an agenda.....to get something from the people they influence. Those would include anybody who runs a site that has ad income, begs for Patreon support, or (like yourself) tries to organize people into armed groups  or into committing various acts of violent resistance to BAU.

So where do I fit in this taxonomy?  ???   :icon_scratch:  I'm not a "cut & poster" and I run no ads, have no paywall and don't try to organize people into armed groups.

Mainly, I just try to teach people how to Prep Up and examine the Economics and Psychology of Colllapse.

RE
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Online Surly1

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Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2020, 06:52:11 PM »

So where do I fit in this taxonomy?  ???   :icon_scratch:  I'm not a "cut & poster" and I run no ads, have no paywall and don't try to organize people into armed groups.

Mainly, I just try to teach people how to Prep Up and examine the Economics and Psychology of Colllapse.

RE

Perhaps one is a "cut-'n-paster" if one posts articles of interest to others.

This is what passive-aggressive behavior looks like.
"Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief. Do justly now, love mercy now, walk humbly now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it."

Offline Palloy2

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Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2020, 07:21:27 PM »
Quote
Eddie: My definition includes people who are willing to use collapse (which is a real circumstance we all have to deal with) as a lever arm to get people to support some highly questionable agenda they see as fundamental, either to their own ideals, or to obtain money, or both.

You, sir, are  a knave. A manipulator.

I have never been called a knave before, probably because it is an Old English word and no longer used.  Use collapse "as a lever arm" is also very unusual English.  I'm certainly not trying to make money out of rebellion, so that leaves supporting a highly questionable agenda I see as fundamental to my ideals.  I'm at a total loss to understand that.

When I see angry people marching in the streets and being confronted by well-armed, well-trained police, using batons, tear gas, pepper fog, water cannon, rubber bullets and percussion grenades, I say "That is not the way to do it.  They should use asymmetric tactics. The police can't guard everywhere, all the time, so catch them unawares.  The target should always be obvious and exclude harming "the people", and leaving behind your message daubed on a wall or the road."

I think that analysis has some value.  It certainly doesn't mean I am going to do it myself, as there isn't a military dictatorship here, and it doesn't mean I am trying to manipulate YOU into doing it. 

The ideas come from "Minimanual of the Urban Guerrilla" by Carlos Marighella, who was a guerrilla fighter against the military dictatorship in Brazil in 1969.  He ended up being ambushed by the police and shot dead.  www.palloy.earth/rebellion/urban_guerrilla.htm . He was a Marxist-Leninist but that is irrelevant to the rebellion side of things.  Obviously I wouldn't expect YOU to get involved, you being uninterested in politics and a millionaire, always whining about your taxes.  In the event of a collapse, you might want to look it up.  It all depends on how ANGRY you are.

The CIA's Freedom Fighters Manual for the Contras in Nicaragua sees it similarly "What the free Nicaraguan can do in order to tie down the Marxist Tyranny" www.palloy.earth/rebellion/freedom.fighters.manual.htm .
"The State is a body of armed men."

Online Surly1

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Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2020, 07:50:24 PM »
Hi Palloy,

New to see you on this side of the dirt. In re your new flame Putin,

Quote
Putin is currently the world's greatest statesman.  Imagine Trump or Clinton or Sanders talking to Erdogan about his Syrian push for the Turkish Empire.   Upon the breakdown of Ukraine, Putin took back the Crimea (given away by Kruschev in 1954), where the major naval base of Sebastopol is, WITHOUT KILLING ANYBODY, and was accused of "Aggression" !  The US of course has never been guilty of aggression, has it?

Eddie just swallows all the CIA propaganda about Putin being a
thug.

Fixed that for you.

One might wonder why critics of "the world's greatest statesman" so often end up dead? Sergei Skripal, Boris Nemtsov, Alexander Litvinenko, and journalists Anna Politkovskaya, Natalia Estemirova, Anastasiya Baburova, and others would all like a word.

And then there is Sergei Maqgnitsky.

You might wish to reply as regards state sponsored terror and murder with some classic whataboutism, such as the Global War on Terra@, and drone warfare and assassination from above. Cheerfully conceded. All of the perpetrators should stand hooded and cuffed in a docket in The Hague.

But meanwhile, I'm talking about Putin.
"Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief. Do justly now, love mercy now, walk humbly now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it."

Offline Palloy2

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Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2020, 08:39:10 PM »
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But there are some I'd call knaves....knaves have an agenda.....to get something from the people they influence. Those would include anybody who runs a site that has ad income, begs for Patreon support, or (like yourself) tries to organize people into armed groups or into committing various acts of violent resistance to BAU.

You can't be serious.  You think I'm trying to manipulate/organise Diners into armed groups ?  You are the one who is going on about guns all the time, and bringing up Ted Kaczynski, not me.  All I am saying is: "peaceful protest DOESN'T WORK to make governments change their minds", unless it is on a subject that doesn't matter to them, like same-sex marriage.  And voting once every four years DOESN'T WORK, the elite will always have more power, including ownership of all the media and control of the police.  CIA/FBI/NSA/MIC don't even have elections, and remain the same regardless of the President.  Company Directors have to be rich, and the workers don't have a say in the running of the company.

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so as you say.....you really want people like me to bomb government buildings
Who said anything about bombs?   I said gasoline, which is common and legal to own.  When sprayed from a squeezy bottle, it makes a splendid fuse to put you at a distance from the real action (see Mythbusters). Who said anything about "wanting" ? 

I think you have a screw loose. "Knave" indeed !

When economic collapse comes (for you a comfortable 20 years off in the future) you will be penniless and cut off from government agencies.  Your local community will meet to discuss the situation.  I want you to THINK about it now, as to what you will say.  Do you want "freedom and democracy" and everybody with guns again, and all the inequality it brings, or do you want to try something else ?  Nobody on the Diner wants to discuss this, but it could happen TODAY (well, Monday).
"The State is a body of armed men."

Offline Palloy2

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Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2020, 09:05:08 PM »
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Surly: One might wonder why critics of "the world's greatest statesman" so often end up dead?

So you think Putin is a thug.  But you don't know anything about what happens in Russia, only what you learn from the media.
 
So its what you see on TV and read in the newspapers and on Facebook.

Have you never heard it said that the CIA plants stories to demonise its enemies? Or that Russia is an oligarchy with all sorts of Mafia-like connections? 

And yet you have assessed all the evidence and come to a final conclusion that ... is exactly like what the CIA says it is.

You have been propagandised.
"The State is a body of armed men."

Offline Palloy2

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Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2020, 09:59:31 PM »
Complete non-sequitur.
There were 2 program on TV last night about North Korea, the first by Michael Palin (of Python fame).  Every single sentence in his script was "Everything seems perfectly normal, but that's because they have been told to look normal by the sinister state government apparatus."  It started with the station where his train entered NK from China, "Lots of military people present" - at the international border, no less!   It ended with the NK equivalent of "May Day" celebrations with the workers gathering in the park and singing and drinking and dancing into the night.  The people were very well-dressed and having a good time, but what about "somewhere else" where they are not so well-off, and tightly controlled by the brutal and dictatorial regime ?

The second was a US production  that relied on an ex-CIA psychologist, who specialised in what kind of people the leaders are.  He, not ever having met any of the Kims, said "You cannot understand Kim Jong Un without understanding Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il" and proceeded to tear them all apart.  The ONLY evidence came from defectors or captured NKs who hadn't committed suicide (like they had been told by the President).

You may remember the power struggle over a tree on the border, that had been planted by Kim Il Sung, and was blocking both side's view of the DMZ.  The US just went in and started trimming it, and when NK objected strongly, they came back and chainsawed it down.  When Kim Il Sung backed down, it was treated like a great victory for Freedom and Democracy.  "It was the only time Kim was ever known to back down."

No one asked "How can a communist country be run by a dynasty of dictators?" or if they were really dictators at all.

Thus is propaganda vented by the US on Australian TV.  Palin has gone down in my estimation.  No one could have swallowed that pathetic nonsense, or could they? 

"The State is a body of armed men."

Online Surly1

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Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2020, 04:04:16 AM »
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Surly: One might wonder why critics of "the world's greatest statesman" so often end up dead?

So you think Putin is a thug.  But you don't know anything about what happens in Russia, only what you learn from the media.
 
So its what you see on TV and read in the newspapers and on Facebook.

Have you never heard it said that the CIA plants stories to demonise its enemies? Or that Russia is an oligarchy with all sorts of Mafia-like connections? 

And yet you have assessed all the evidence and come to a final conclusion that ... is exactly like what the CIA says it is.

You have been propagandised.

I readily concede The CIA infiltration of all American media, made much easier by the fact that its practitioners are so easy to slobber on the phalluses of their paymasters. There is a reason real, authentic leftists have been deplatformed in this country for 40 years.

Stop assuming that anyone who disagrees with you is stupid. I've been filtering corporate agitprop to attempt to distill facts for nearly 50 years. Stick your sanctimony elsewhere.

That said, you have altogether too many bodies to bury-- literally-- to aver that Putin is not a thug. They mount like cordwood. Putin is what Trump aspires to be: a mafia-style authoritarian and a mob boss for whom murder is just another tool in the toolbox. All carefully deniable, of course. Putin is much smarter, with a KGB background and the capacity to read something more complicated than a gum-wrapper.

Like the leaders Trump praises: Kim, Duterte, Xi Jinping, el-Sisi, Erdogan.
"Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief. Do justly now, love mercy now, walk humbly now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it."

Offline azozeo

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Re: Gaining a more nuanced perspective on collapse
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2020, 10:54:11 AM »
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Eddie: My definition includes people who are willing to use collapse (which is a real circumstance we all have to deal with) as a lever arm to get people to support some highly questionable agenda they see as fundamental, either to their own ideals, or to obtain money, or both.

You, sir, are  a knave. A manipulator.

I have never been called a knave before, probably because it is an Old English word and no longer used.  Use collapse "as a lever arm" is also very unusual English.  I'm certainly not trying to make money out of rebellion, so that leaves supporting a highly questionable agenda I see as fundamental to my ideals.  I'm at a total loss to understand that.

When I see angry people marching in the streets and being confronted by well-armed, well-trained police, using batons, tear gas, pepper fog, water cannon, rubber bullets and percussion grenades, I say "That is not the way to do it.  They should use asymmetric tactics. The police can't guard everywhere, all the time, so catch them unawares.  The target should always be obvious and exclude harming "the people", and leaving behind your message daubed on a wall or the road."

I think that analysis has some value.  It certainly doesn't mean I am going to do it myself, as there isn't a military dictatorship here, and it doesn't mean I am trying to manipulate YOU into doing it. 

The ideas come from "Minimanual of the Urban Guerrilla" by Carlos Marighella, who was a guerrilla fighter against the military dictatorship in Brazil in 1969.  He ended up being ambushed by the police and shot dead.  www.palloy.earth/rebellion/urban_guerrilla.htm . He was a Marxist-Leninist but that is irrelevant to the rebellion side of things.  Obviously I wouldn't expect YOU to get involved, you being uninterested in politics and a millionaire, always whining about your taxes.  In the event of a collapse, you might want to look it up.  It all depends on how ANGRY you are.

The CIA's Freedom Fighters Manual for the Contras in Nicaragua sees it similarly "What the free Nicaraguan can do in order to tie down the Marxist Tyranny" www.palloy.earth/rebellion/freedom.fighters.manual.htm .


You sure know how to light up the crowd. 1 post & the blood pressure around this happy haunt has tripled. Atta' boy Palloy. (hey that rhymes)
Maybe I'll reincarnate as a cracker ass rappah'
I know exactly what you mean. Let me tell you why youíre here. Youíre here because you know something. What you know you canít explain, but you feel it. Youíve felt it your entire life, that thereís something wrong with the world.
You donít know what it is but its there, like a splinter in your mind

 

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