AuthorTopic: Things that work: Solar inverters  (Read 466 times)

Offline Nearingsfault

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Things that work: Solar inverters
« on: February 18, 2020, 08:54:45 AM »
So I have decided my lesson is learned and I will steer away from any and all political subjects.
On to better things:
As some of you know I will be building a new homestead starting this year and taking  probably a year or more for the home part alone. After looking into the energy tea leafs I have decided in the immediate term to go all electric for heating and cooking. I'm not quite sure if the energy profile of the house will work for this or not due to some restrictions placed on ontario homes of no more then 10kW of net metered feed. This causes problems because in this climate that limits you to about 12000 kW of production per year credited to you. Yes that is a lot but maybe not enough for an all electric home in a climate with 6 months of heating. So how do you win? I came across this company while researching a system for a client. He did most of the discovery I did the project oversight and commissioning.  Company website: https://www.sol-ark.com/
Here is a decent video...
 <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/BOtJ0MnY8W8" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/BOtJ0MnY8W8</a>
Conventional inverters use a large transformer as their heart to convert Battery dc electricity to ac more common in homes. They are great machines but eat up a lot of energy to heat loss and don't do peak load well in some situations. High frequency inverters have been around a long time but are mostly limited to cheap consumer crap. So What if you took the reliability of low frequency inverters and matched it to the efficiency of high frequency? There you have it that is the heart of the Sol ark inverters. But wait it gets more fun!  Usually in traditional inverter systems you bolt on charge controllers to the outside as needed. It adds cost and wiring complexity and additional losses. So what if you incorporated two charge controllers into your system? Remember that 10Kw cap common to a lot of North American jurisdictions? What if you made the charge controller so huge you could attach 16500 watts of solar panels to it but have it only send 10kW to the grid to stay legal?  Then what if you built in a priority load feature so if you batteries were full and you were selling as much as you could you could also say heat water or run an AC?  Yup all there all built in.  Then lets say you are a doomer what about solar flares? lightning? emp? Well there is an emp add on lab tested for the system ... I'm quite enamored with this little baby right now... We will see if the budget allows but this will be my number one item on my go to the mat budget negotiations...  All this started based on Eddie's net metered system install last year that got me thinking what I would want to see...
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 08:57:32 AM by Nearingsfault »
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline Eddie

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Re: Things that work: Solar inverters
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2020, 09:58:53 AM »
I ended up bailing on my system to avoid the debt I was going to have to get into...and now the great tax incentives are gone........ :icon_scratch:

I will build a system somewhere, someday. I have nearly 5kW in panels in storage....I'm always glad to hear your plans and what you've built. Wish you lived closer so I could beg you for free help all the time.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: Things that work: Solar inverters
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2020, 10:08:19 AM »
I ended up bailing on my system to avoid the debt I was going to have to get into...and now the great tax incentives are gone........ :icon_scratch:

I will build a system somewhere, someday. I have nearly 5kW in panels in storage....I'm always glad to hear your plans and what you've built. Wish you lived closer so I could beg you for free help all the time.
sol ark makes an 8kw battery based grid tied inverter as well... I think if you have the grid you should use it... the 8kw will take 10kw plus and send 7.5kw to the grid... they are a texas company as well...
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline K-Dog

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Re: Things that work: Solar inverters
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2020, 12:24:29 PM »
Eddie can count his gold and fuck the world.  It is not all about making a profit.  This looks very interesting.  If it cost more cents per watt at the end of the day and less of the planet is eaten it is a good deal and a great hobby.  Hobbies cost money.



I need to know more but this diagram suggests that the inverter can charge batteries and provide power to the grid at the same time.  An algorithm could work together with a perpetual calendar and light sensors to figure out how to charge batteries with maximum efficiency so to reach full charge at sundown.  That would let a maximum amount of power be converted directly to the mains with high efficiency since it is not stored.

If the warm transformer is used to provide heat some of the efficiencies of switching power supplies are negated I think.  I do not think anybody has studied this to see how much of that heat can be recovered and put to good use.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 12:33:43 PM by K-Dog »
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: Things that work: Solar inverters
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2020, 12:35:44 PM »
So... in hybrid systems the inverter can charge batteries and send power to the grid at the same time. Usually you can program the parameters you want them to prioritize. In battery back up systems the batteries more or less live in float so as to not wear out unless there is an outage. You could prioritize grid charging and allow a certain percentage of battery capacity to be used before it stopped sending to the grid but that makes no sense. If the grid goes down it instantly switches to inverting and powers the priority load panel to the capacity of the inverter limited by the battery bank size and the solar panels ability to recharge them... best of the off grid and grid connected world...
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline K-Dog

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Re: Things that work: Solar inverters
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2020, 12:45:10 PM »
So... in hybrid systems the inverter can charge batteries and send power to the grid at the same time. Usually you can program the parameters you want them to prioritize. In battery back up systems the batteries more or less live in float so as to not wear out unless there is an outage. You could prioritize grid charging and allow a certain percentage of battery capacity to be used before it stopped sending to the grid but that makes no sense. If the grid goes down it instantly switches to inverting and powers the priority load panel to the capacity of the inverter limited by the battery bank size and the solar panels ability to recharge them... best of the off grid and grid connected world...

Essentially you are telling me that the battery system is held in standby unless the grid goes down.  If it keeps the batteries alive longer that makes sense.  Finding where a sweet spot to use batteries could be very complicated.  If the grid power is dirty natural gas, using up some battery might be the right thing to do.  But how much?  The grid also always has transmission losses.  What is the lowest carbon path?

This gets deep into systems theory but so far people only write books about such things.
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline Eddie

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Re: Things that work: Solar inverters
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2020, 01:08:40 PM »
Eddie can count his gold and fuck the world.  It is not all about making a profit.  This looks very interesting.  If it cost more cents per watt at the end of the day and less of the planet is eaten it is a good deal and a great hobby.  Hobbies cost money.

I don't currently own any gold, and I'm not sure why you keep finding new reasons to attack me over stupid shit....but let me cordially invite you to go fuck yourself.

You have turned into a total asshole. I can't believe it.

Sorry I don't agree with you precisely on climate. Your ad hom comments are getting tedious. Do you really want to go this route? I can give it back just as good as you can dish out, big man.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline K-Dog

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Re: Things that work: Solar inverters
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2020, 03:11:12 PM »
Eddie can count his gold and fuck the world.  It is not all about making a profit.  This looks very interesting.  If it cost more cents per watt at the end of the day and less of the planet is eaten it is a good deal and a great hobby.  Hobbies cost money.

I don't currently own any gold, and I'm not sure why you keep finding new reasons to attack me over stupid shit....but let me cordially invite you to go fuck yourself.

You have turned into a total asshole. I can't believe it.

Sorry I don't agree with you precisely on climate. Your ad hom comments are getting tedious. Do you really want to go this route? I can give it back just as good as you can dish out, big man.

I figured that would be your reaction.  You dish it out and can't take it.  Here is what you dished out.

I ended up bailing on my system to avoid the debt I was going to have to get into...and now the great tax incentives are gone........ :icon_scratch:


You are an unapologetic capitalist with assets that put you in the 1%.  You don't have debt.  And stop with the insults and buck up.  You make statements and I have every write to respond to their negativity.  At this point consider it a moral obligation.  If you know what that is.  You insult so much I doubt you do.

Your comment was negative.  It is not all about 'debt'.  Some of us, not you, believe doing things to cut carbon emissions should be done even if it costs money.  We are not all misers.  That is the hobby side I mentioned which your negativity attacks.  Your comment provided no encouragement. 

« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 03:16:31 PM by K-Dog »
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: Things that work: Solar inverters
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2020, 03:14:34 PM »
So... in hybrid systems the inverter can charge batteries and send power to the grid at the same time. Usually you can program the parameters you want them to prioritize. In battery back up systems the batteries more or less live in float so as to not wear out unless there is an outage. You could prioritize grid charging and allow a certain percentage of battery capacity to be used before it stopped sending to the grid but that makes no sense. If the grid goes down it instantly switches to inverting and powers the priority load panel to the capacity of the inverter limited by the battery bank size and the solar panels ability to recharge them... best of the off grid and grid connected world...

Essentially you are telling me that the battery system is held in standby unless the grid goes down.  If it keeps the batteries alive longer that makes sense.  Finding where a sweet spot to use batteries could be very complicated.  If the grid power is dirty natural gas, using up some battery might be the right thing to do.  But how much?  The grid also always has transmission losses.  What is the lowest carbon path?

This gets deep into systems theory but so far people only write books about such things.
the decision to sell or not is programmed in. Right now using money as a metric it makes no sense to deplete the battery to feed the grid. Clever people are working out better arrangements though. That diversion load heating a cement slab in winter or over cooling a house during sunnier part of the day are two good examples of out of the box easy to apply options. California and Hawaii I believe both have peak Kw hr pricing on high demand days where you can pay $6 or more per kw hr for power used above a set norm... in those cases using the battery would make sense. They call that peak shaving and you are going to see a lot of that in the future. The sol ark will do that...
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: Things that work: Solar inverters
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2020, 03:16:42 PM »
Eddie can count his gold and fuck the world.  It is not all about making a profit.  This looks very interesting.  If it cost more cents per watt at the end of the day and less of the planet is eaten it is a good deal and a great hobby.  Hobbies cost money.

I don't currently own any gold, and I'm not sure why you keep finding new reasons to attack me over stupid shit....but let me cordially invite you to go fuck yourself.

You have turned into a total asshole. I can't believe it.

Sorry I don't agree with you precisely on climate. Your ad hom comments are getting tedious. Do you really want to go this route? I can give it back just as good as you can dish out, big man.

I figured that would be your reaction.  You dish it out and can't take it.  Here is what you dished out.

I ended up bailing on my system to avoid the debt I was going to have to get into...and now the great tax incentives are gone........ :icon_scratch:


You are an unapologetic capitalist with assets that put you in the 1%.  You don't have debt.  And stop with the insults and buck up.  You make statements and I have every write to respond to their negativity.  At this point consider it a moral obligation.  If you know what that is.  You insult so much I doubt you do.

Your comment was negative.  It is not all about 'debt'..  Some of us, not you, believe doing things to cut carbon emissions should be done even if it costs money.  We are not al misers..  That is the hobby side I mentioned which your negativity attacks.  Your comment provided no encouragement.
please keep this shit out of my thread... if you cant then the diner will loose yet another poster who does shit...
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline K-Dog

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Re: Things that work: Solar inverters
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2020, 03:22:45 PM »
I will do that but you have to tell Eddie the same. And it is not all shit which I'll explain in a new comment.
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline K-Dog

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Re: Things that work: Solar inverters
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2020, 03:30:22 PM »
The new comment.

I'm not point any fingers at anybody and everybody cool off right away because to be clear I do not say I am better than anybody else.

But, saving money conserving batteries, worrying about tax incentives are two behaviors that will lead to more carbon being released not less.

Doom has many perspectives and private prepping is only one of them.

As long as you guys are on the grid you use more energy than everyone else not less.  Can you admit or not or do you even understand that you do.  I want to know.

Half-on half-off would be a different story.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 03:32:26 PM by K-Dog »
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline Nearingsfault

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Re: Things that work: Solar inverters
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2020, 04:07:06 PM »
The new comment.

I'm not point any fingers at anybody and everybody cool off right away because to be clear I do not say I am better than anybody else.

But, saving money conserving batteries, worrying about tax incentives are two behaviors that will lead to more carbon being released not less.

Doom has many perspectives and private prepping is only one of them.

As long as you guys are on the grid you use more energy than everyone else not less.  Can you admit or not or do you even understand that you do.  I want to know.

Half-on half-off would be a different story.
that is a fundamental difference. I believe the quickest way to innovate and decarbonize is through financial pressures so maximizing return on investment on solar incentivises private capital to invest in it building solar capacity without society at large bankrupting itself...
Off grid systems sized properly with ample solar and battery banks would break even with the grid if you were a small user of electricity with a grid charge reflective of the true cost of the grid without subsidy. If you have to rely heavily on a propane genny and propane heat... you will use more energy then a grid connected home...
If its important then try something, fail, disect, learn from it, try again, and again and again until it kills you or you succeed.

Offline K-Dog

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Re: Things that work: Solar inverters
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2020, 04:38:31 PM »
The new comment.

I'm not point any fingers at anybody and everybody cool off right away because to be clear I do not say I am better than anybody else.

But, saving money conserving batteries, worrying about tax incentives are two behaviors that will lead to more carbon being released not less.

Doom has many perspectives and private prepping is only one of them.

As long as you guys are on the grid you use more energy than everyone else not less.  Can you admit or not or do you even understand that you do.  I want to know.

Half-on half-off would be a different story.
that is a fundamental difference. I believe the quickest way to innovate and decarbonize is through financial pressures so maximizing return on investment on solar incentivises private capital to invest in it building solar capacity without society at large bankrupting itself...
Off grid systems sized properly with ample solar and battery banks would break even with the grid if you were a small user of electricity with a grid charge reflective of the true cost of the grid without subsidy. If you have to rely heavily on a propane genny and propane heat... you will use more energy then a grid connected home...

I want to reiterate that I am not being a moral policeman about any of this.  I am trying to develop clarity about how everything interconnects.  There are some things which are counter-intuitive about how everything works.  If someone is actually using more energy than average to develop a system that leads to greater resilience I actually approve of what they are doing!  But that is dangerous to state after saying I'm making this about the facts and not being a moral policeman.

It is interesting you advocate electric heat.  That is an unpopular point of view but I agree with you.  People complain about electric devices being left on and wasting power and such criticism is often legitimate and accurate.  But if you are in a well insulated home it can eliminate fossil fuel use.  The qualifier is that it has to offset coal and gas use.

Describing things from a financial sense that people can understand I agree with.  Yet is complicated and a lot of claims are made.  I looked at the website for the Sol-Arc equipment.  There is 'marketing' to decipher.  I'm not saying if the equipment is good or bad; just that there is marketing to wade through. 

Looking at it all I realized if a person just looked at off grid from strictly economic points of view; only looking at 'the numbers' they might elect not to use their equipment and defeat the whole purpose of going off grid in the first place.  They certainly would not change lifestyles because they would be under no pressure to do so. 

« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 04:42:38 PM by K-Dog »
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

Offline K-Dog

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Re: Things that work: Solar inverters
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2020, 05:15:52 PM »
I finished watching the video.  It all looks very expensive and hats off to anyone with the guts to dive into this swamp.  That includes Eddie.
Under ideal conditions of temperature and pressure the organism will grow without limit.

 

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