AuthorTopic: Getting a conceptual and theoretical handle on bailouts  (Read 930 times)

Offline RE

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Re: Getting a conceptual and theoretical handle on bailouts
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2020, 08:20:57 PM »
A more complete Bibliography of Econ articles on the Diner Blog:

Money Valve I, Money Valve II, Money Valve III, Money Valve IV,David Korowicz Podcast:Financial Contagion & Tipping Points,Financial WWIII, Of Heat Sinks & Debt Sinks: A Thermodynamic View of Money,Theory of Everything I, Theory of Everything II, Energy-Money Equilibrium I, Energy-Money Equilibrium II, Energy-Money Equilibrium III,Da Fed: Central Banking According to RE,Kurrency Kollapse,Large Public Works Projects I,Large Public Works Projects II,Large Public Works Projects III,Waste Based Society I, Waste Based Society II, Waste Based Society III,Smokin' Economista Crack,Demand Destruction, Swissie Capitulation,Energy & Banking Criminal Racketeering,Economic Ebola,Competitive Currency Devaluation & Deflation,Inflation, Deflation & FOOD!,Financial WWIII: Secessions, Sanctions & Anti-Dollars, Anti-Dollars III: Fining Putin,Anti-Dollars II,Anti-Dollars,Eurobanksters Pray for Jesus,Wealth Confiscation & Destruction,Monetary Kabuki,Peak Credit,Fictional Wealth & Putin's Billions,Student Loan Forgiveness,Deflation Doom,The Death of Debt,Emerging Markets & Peripheral Currency Collapse,Tower of Babel Moment,Submerging Markets,Musical Dollars,Energy, Money & Gold,History & Future of Coinage & Money,The Future of Money,Whither Gold?,Conduits,The Crucifixion of Money,Banks: Unsafe at Any Speed,More Musings on Money,Liquidity Traps & Asset Class Sinkholes,Small Bizness in the Sea of Irredeemable Debt,Now Why Don't They SHOP?,Debt Monetization Economics,Financing the Industrial Revolution,Manufacturing Money,Capital Controls,F7 Print Button in Lockup,Moving Beyond Capitalism,On Dignity & Comparative Wealth,Avalanche Theory of Debt Cascade Failure,The Concepts of Money & Capital,Dollar-Oil Nexus,Hyperinflation vs. Deflation: Rebutting FFOA,Hyperinflation vs. Deflation Continued,Energy, Money & Oil: Inter-relationships,Banksters go ALL IN,History of Economic Collapse & the End of the Age of Oil,Capital Flight & Unions: 40 years of History in the FSoA,Hyperinflation or Deflation?,In the Debtrix, there is no Red Pill,
RE
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Offline JRM

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Re: Getting a conceptual and theoretical handle on bailouts
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2020, 08:25:39 PM »
PS -

"the whole field of inquiry" is -- to anyone paying attention recently --  no longer circumscribed to "Economics" or "Sociology" or "Political Philosophy (or political science) or "Anthropology" or Ecology..., History   and on and on and on. Those who are not partially acquainted with all of these fields -- and many more besides -- on some basic but adequate level are clueless idiots these days  -- in any of these disciplines, or the trans- and inter- disciplinary spaces now opening up, which reveal the utter stupidity of a lack of general education bla bla bla.

In other words, all things interconnect, inter-influence, affect one another not so much in a linear causal chain but in a wild west, wooly, difficult to discern way.

Knowing and understanding this is crucial to any future worth living in. IMO.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 08:40:08 PM by JRM »
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline Surly1

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Re: Getting a conceptual and theoretical handle on bailouts
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2020, 03:31:01 AM »

All the goldbugs believe in Austrian Economics......this is Ron Paul's belief system too. They do a pretty good job of pointing out the flaws in the Fed...but they have their own blind spots. Mike Maloney is an Austrian guy. So is Peter Schiff. So is Jim Rickards. I used to read all those guys...

The Fed is run by Keynesian economists...but they took Keynes' methods, which had merit, and used them to justify generations of inflationary policies that led to the current asset bubbles......which we all agree can't be inflated forever.

The important thing to remember is that the US government and the Federal Reserve bank are co-conspirators in a system that has run amok over time.

The banks have provided the legislative branch with a bottomless checkbook that never has to be balanced.....and the government has in turn left it almost 100% to tthe banks to decide how much money gets printed, and who gets credit....and at what rates.

The Federal Reserve is supposed to have two missions...originally their mission was maintaining stable prices and " moderate" long-term interest rates. Later it was added that they should maintain full employment.

In my adult life interest rates have been all over the map.....and the employment rate numbers have had to be  seriously massaged by changing the criteria to make things always look better than they are.......yet the Fed still has complete control over money.  It's because they allow the government to spend money we don't have.

Inflation is a hidden tax on people who have no wealth assets...it turns out to be convenient for the government and the banks. But inflation cannot continue in a finite world with depleted real assets and limits to growth.

That's the whole enchilada. All you need to know.

This is as succinct as a haiku. A tip of the hat to you, Eddie. A thing of beauty.
The only thing I might add is WHY the Fed allows the government to spend money it doesn't have. That's the petrodollar, backed by the world's largest nuclear arsenal.
"Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief. Do justly now, love mercy now, walk humbly now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it."

Offline Surly1

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Re: Getting a conceptual and theoretical handle on bailouts
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2020, 03:33:18 AM »
This is good stuff for me too absolutely. Do either of you know any good sources to learn more about how the financial system works? Books, videos, courses? All I've got really is Mr Maloney and he has an axe to grind as you said.

Books/videos that I would have as recommended reading would be Chris Martenson's crash course. The main takeaways from that book can also be viewed on youtube for free. Energy and the wealth of nations by Charles Hall is also a good read for a system level anaylsis of money and energy. In terms of the Diner I wrote a four part series called money and wealth:

Money & Wealth: Part I
Money & Wealth: Part II
Money & Wealth: Part III
Money &Wealth: Part IV

I also wrote articles on energy and system based analysis that could get people up to speed. Simply google "monsta666 doomstead diner" and you will see stuff I wrote on the diner. RE has also written articles that are insightful in this topic.  There is a two part series he wrote called Energy-Money equilibrium which is worth reading:

Energy-Money Equilibrium: The Value of Money in the Age of Oil

While it is good to have a knowledge of how the monetary works and the significance of exopential growth it is also useful to know how it fits into the greater energy and ecosystem. Unlike what is taught in conventional economics the world economy is merely a sub-system to our ecosystem so a grasp of system based thinking is needed. For systems based thinking limits to growth is a good book to get started with. Ultimately though, and this is something I cannot stress enough, is you need to develop a good sense of critical thinking. Don't assume anyone is right (including me). Challenge everything and learn to search and verify statements other people say. I would even go as far as to question your own basic assumptions because we can all be guilty of cognitive bias. Challenge yourself, read opinions that do not align with your beliefs and try and understand the logic of others even if it seems extreme. Remember when people were ridiculing the protestors that wanted to lift lockdown measures? Try and imagine a logical situation why people do such things and try and not dismiss out of hat.


 :emthup: :emthup: :emthup:
There has in the past been a wealth of good articles in the Diner about the relationship between money and energy.
"Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief. Do justly now, love mercy now, walk humbly now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it."

Offline Surly1

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Re: Getting a conceptual and theoretical handle on bailouts
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2020, 04:31:31 AM »
So far economically our government seems to be handling it well; balancing economic support for industry and employers while providing helicopter money to those stuck at home. To quantify they upped parent benefits if you have kids at home and delivered $500 per week of quarantine for self employed people. Those forced out of work got expedited employment insurance worth 55 percent of wages. Employers who kept people on the rolls got up to 75 percent of wages covered... bamks were given money to not call loans, some bailouts some politics but most parties and provincial governments seem to be playing nice for now. The cost will be huge but we are a small population sitting on a shit tonne of resources, pretty well educated and in good health. At some time the whole western world economy goes kaput but at least here we are used to being a small economy not calling the shots. We already weathered one economic cataclysm when the world economy switched from Britain to the us...

What a stark contrast to the madness unfolding around us down here.
Not being governed by a paranoid schizophrenic probably helps, as well.
"Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief. Do justly now, love mercy now, walk humbly now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it."

Offline Cam

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Re: Getting a conceptual and theoretical handle on bailouts
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2020, 05:06:02 AM »
A more complete Bibliography of Econ articles on the Diner Blog:

<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2014/05/25/the-money-valve/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Money Valve I[/url], <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2014/06/01/the-money-valve-ii/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Money Valve II[/url], <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2014/06/08/the-money-valve-iii/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Money Valve III[/url], <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2014/06/15/the-money-valve-iv/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Money Valve IV[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2013/07/13/podcast-david-korowicz-financial-contagion-tipping-points/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">David Korowicz Podcast:Financial Contagion & Tipping Points[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2014/04/17/financial-wwiii/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Financial WWIII[/url], <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2014/12/30/of-heat-sinks-debt-sinks-a-thermodynamic-view-of-money/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Of Heat Sinks & Debt Sinks: A Thermodynamic View of Money[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/03/20/theory-of-everything-part-i/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Theory of Everything I[/url], <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/03/22/theory-of-everything-part-ii/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Theory of Everything II[/url], <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/02/28/energy-money-equilibrium-the-value-of-money-in-the-age-of-oil/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Energy-Money Equilibrium I[/url], <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/02/29/energy-money-equilibrium-ii-the-modern-era-and-the-jenga-paradox/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Energy-Money Equilibrium II[/url], <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/03/01/energy-money-equilbrium-iii-the-future-of-money-in-the-end-game/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Energy-Money Equilibrium III[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/02/24/da-fed-central-banking-according-to-re/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Da Fed: Central Banking According to RE[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2015/03/14/kurrency-kollapse-to-print-or-not-to-print/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Kurrency Kollapse[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/03/03/large-public-works-projects-part-i/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Large Public Works Projects I[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/03/05/large-publics-works-projects-part-ii/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Large Public Works Projects II[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/03/06/large-public-works-projects-iii-spwps-and-the-flintstone-project/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Large Public Works Projects III[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/06/07/waste-based-society/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Waste Based Society I[/url], <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/06/08/waste-based-society-ii-vendor-financing-planned-obsolescence/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Waste Based Society II[/url], <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/06/12/waste-based-society-iii-solutions-and-alternatives/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Waste Based Society III[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2015/03/07/smokin-economista-crack/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Smokin&#39; Economista Crack,[/url]<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2015/02/26/demand-destruction/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Demand Destruction[/url], <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2015/01/18/swissie-capitulation/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Swissie Capitulation[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2014/12/21/energy-banking-criminal-racketeering/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Energy & Banking Criminal Racketeering[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2014/11/25/economic-ebola/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Economic Ebola[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2014/11/18/competitive-currency-devaluation-deflation/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Competitive Currency Devaluation & Deflation[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2014/09/26/inflation-deflation-food/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Inflation, Deflation & FOOD![/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2014/09/13/financial-wwiii-secessions-sanctions-anti-dollars/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Financial WWIII: Secessions, Sanctions & Anti-Dollars[/url], <a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2014/08/02/anti-dollar-iii-fining-putin/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Anti-Dollars III: Fining Putin[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2014/07/28/anti-dollars-ii/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Anti-Dollars II[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2014/07/25/anti-dollars/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Anti-Dollars[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2014/07/13/eurobanksters-pray-for-jesus/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Eurobanksters Pray for Jesus[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2014/07/06/wealth-confiscation-destruction/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Wealth Confiscation & Destruction[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2014/06/09/monetary-kabuki/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Monetary Kabuki[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2014/05/11/peak-credit-podcast/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Peak Credit[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2014/05/05/fictional-wealth-putins-billions/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Fictional Wealth & Putin&#39;s Billions[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2014/04/24/student-loan-forgiveness/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Student Loan Forgiveness[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2014/04/19/deflation-doom/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Deflation Doom[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2014/03/16/the-death-of-debt/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">The Death of Debt[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2014/02/15/emerging-markets-peripheral-currency-collapse/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Emerging Markets & Peripheral Currency Collapse[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2013/10/13/tower-of-babel-moment/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Tower of Babel Moment[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2013/09/15/submerging-markets/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Submerging Markets[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2013/06/22/musical-dollars/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Musical Dollars[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2013/05/25/energy-money-gold/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Energy, Money & Gold[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2013/04/28/history-future-of-coinage-money/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">History & Future of Coinage & Money[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2013/04/21/the-future-of-money/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">The Future of Money[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2013/04/14/whither-gold/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Whither Gold?[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2013/04/07/conduits/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Conduits[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2013/03/31/easter-2013-the-crucifiction-of-money/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">The Crucifixion of Money[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2013/03/17/banks-unsafe-at-any-speed/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Banks: Unsafe at Any Speed[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2013/02/19/more-musings-on-money/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">More Musings on Money[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2013/02/16/liquidity-traps-asset-class-sinkholes/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Liquidity Traps & Asset Class Sinkholes[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2013/02/06/small-bizness-in-the-sea-of-irredeemable-debt/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Small Bizness in the Sea of Irredeemable Debt[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2013/01/27/now-why-dont-they-shop/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Now Why Don&#39;t They SHOP?[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2013/01/12/debt-monetization-economics/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Debt Monetization Economics[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/08/30/financing-the-industrial-revolution/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Financing the Industrial Revolution[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/07/03/manufacturing-money/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Manufacturing Money[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/06/14/capital-controls/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Capital Controls[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/06/02/f7-print-button-in-lock-up/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">F7 Print Button in Lockup[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/05/30/moving-beyond-capitalism/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Moving Beyond Capitalism[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/05/29/on-dignity-and-comparative-wealth/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">On Dignity & Comparative Wealth[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/05/27/avalanche-theory-of-debt-cascade-failure/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Avalanche Theory of Debt Cascade Failure[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/05/27/the-concepts-of-money-and-capital-the-debate-continues/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">The Concepts of Money & Capital[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/05/26/the-dollar-oil-nexus/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Dollar-Oil Nexus[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/05/23/hyperinflation-vs-deflation-rebutting-fofoa/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Hyperinflation vs. Deflation: Rebutting FFOA[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/05/20/hyperinflation-vs-deflation-continued/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Hyperinflation vs. Deflation Continued[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/05/12/energy-oil-money-interrelationships/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Energy, Money & Oil: Inter-relationships[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/05/09/the-banksters-go-all-in/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Banksters go ALL IN[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/04/23/the-history-of-money/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">History of Economic Collapse & the End of the Age of Oil[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/04/13/capital-flight-and-unions-40-years-of-economic-history-in-the-fsofa/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Capital Flight & Unions: 40 years of History in the FSoA[/url],<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/04/01/hyperinflation-or-deflation/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">Hyperinflation or Deflation?,[/url]<a href="http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2012/06/19/in-the-debtrix-there-is-no-red-pill/" target="_blank" title="Doomstead Diner">In the Debtrix, there is no Red Pill,[/url]

RE

Damn the Diner has been a productive place over the years eh? Thank you RE!

Offline luciddreams

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Re: Getting a conceptual and theoretical handle on bailouts
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2020, 07:05:58 AM »
My understanding of economics is a basic and simplistic understanding, but it makes sense to me so I will share.

Money is the ability to buy goods and services.  Goods and services are a product of energy.  The predominant energy our civilization uses is petroleum.  Money is essentially petroleum.  At least in the real world.  Whoever controls the majority of the worlds oil reserves ultimately controls the value of money. 

Digibits are the modern version of money.  Digibits are infinite in nature.  They can "print" as many digibits as they want to.  What effect does that have on the value of energy in the real world though?  Not much.  When they make trillions of more digibits and most of them end up staying at the top.  Trillions more digibits really just end up making billionaires more billions.  Hardly any of those digibits trickle down to the working class. 

Does printing trillions more digibits have an effect on the cost of goods and services to the middle class?  The middle class is effectively the bulk of the economy.  We are the engine of the economy.  We supply the bulk of the taxes that the government uses and make a GDP possible in the real world. 

Further, creating digibits does not mirror the cash that ends up in the real world, so it can easily be adjusted, figures can be jiggered to reflect whatever statistics they want. 

Like I said, my view is very simplistic, but I feel that it's accurate. 

As an example, the last time something like this happened was the response to the 2008 fiasco.  They created a couple trillion dollars for the bailout.  What was the effect that it had on the economy of the middle class?  That was 12 years ago.  We kept working and paying our bills.  We have all been buying goods and services.  Lot's of working class people lost their retirements.  They lost their 401k, or at least it was greatly diminished.  We've all been buying groceries, gas, paying our mortgages or rent, paying for communication and entertainment.  The world went on almost as if nothing at all had happened.  I remember watching congress vote on the bailout in 2008.  I remember being blown away by the trillions they had voted to print (ultimately at least).  I think initially it was 900 billion.  We used to talk about the national budget in the billions, then it changed to trillions, and I suppose eventually we will be talking about it in the zillions. 

Life will go on.  The economy will go on.  As long as we have the energy to continue creating the economy than we will have the economy as it is now. 

In the end it always comes down to recoverable petroleum energy.  That's how our economy really pays for the work of creating itself.  Digibits are just the means of control used by the billionaire masters at the top of the pyramid.  Digibits are only as real as the energy that sustains them. 

Having said all of that, essentially the show must (and will) go on, until something not of the economy comes and destroys it.  Like the coronavirus.  The virus does not care about mans economy.  Man's economy can do very little about the virus.  You may as well call the coronavirus nature.  Granted, it is possible that it's nature that's been altered by man.  Perhaps man created this particular virulent strain of the coronavirus.  But it's still a natural vector.  Just look at the Spanish flu.  My point here is that something like we are dealing with now is a game changer that no amount of digibits can fix.  I don't think that the virus will accept digibits.  The virus appears to be destroying man's economy.  The virus is more powerful than all of the zillions of digibits. 

Eventually man will become to plentiful.  He will overshoot Earth's carrying capacity.  That will be corrected.  If this is not that event than something else will be.  How many meatsacks can the Earth support?  My guess, if we aren't already at that number, we are close.  Something is bound to break around the 10 billion mark.  And what is responsible for the exponential rise in our numbers over the past century?  Petroleum. 

It always comes back to the energy. 

Offline Eddie

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Re: Getting a conceptual and theoretical handle on bailouts
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2020, 07:55:09 AM »
Can somebody help me out.....I'm trying to remember the guy who was probably among the first to make YT videos about debt based money. Before Chris Martenson...before everybody.

All I can remember is that he was an early blogger whose personal history involved working on WS...maybe he was a Canadian....Jesuit schooled as I remember....he was on a mission from God to change things.....he eventually quit blogging. I got the impression he might be entering the priesthood as an alternative to trying to change the world.

I know I posted some of his stuff way back...and even looked him up again years later to see if he ever went back to blogging....he didn't.

He had a pyramid graphic....debt based money pyramid...how wealth flows to the top. He was great....

Maybe a J name? Jason something? Not sure on that part.

Been obsessing about this now for 24 hours....lol
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline JRM

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Re: Getting a conceptual and theoretical handle on bailouts
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2020, 08:02:39 AM »
While petroleum has long been a crucial component of "the economy," it's going way too far to identify money with petroleum. It's not going too far to connect or associate money and petroleum. But when we identify money with petroleum -- i.e., "$ = petro"-- that's just not so.

I often put the phrase "the economy" in quotes, because I have a particular lens, or angle, or set of goggles, I use when thinking about "the economy" and it's not at all like the set of goggles most economists use, nor most people in general.  My goggles are anthropological, and for me an 'economy' is best understood, first and foremost, as that portion of social and cultural life which falls under the heading of "material culture" in anthropological terms. So, for me, an economy is best understood as the means by which people access their most basic human needs, such as food, shelter, water..., basic material needs. Humans have always had extras in relation to basic human needs, but they were always a tiny fraction of "the economy". Now, in the so-called developed world, our basic needs are no longer central to our 'economy'.  They are no longer at the core of the economy. They are not even secondary, but tertiary to the basic form and structure of "the economy". That is, we do not have a needs-based economy. We have a luxury economy.  Very little of what we imagine to be essential to our lives is actually essential. 

Automobiles are the supreme example here. Most Americans imagine automobiles are a necessary part of our lives. But that's utter bullshit. When we have a thorough look at the concrete particulars of automobiles and the "car culture" in the USA from the lens of ecological anthropology, the entire phenomenon reveals itself for what it really is -- a material manifestation of mass insanity.  The same is true of those vast fields of skyscrapers in cities like New York, Seattle, Hong Kong.... (By the way, all of those ribbons of concrete and asphalt seen in cities and between them are part of the fabric of the automobile, not something separate from the automobile. Same with big box stores and fast food chains with drive-through purchasing. It's a single fabric, warp and woof.  And NONE of it is necessary.  We could walk away from it all and we'd all be better off. In material culture terms, we'd be fine. We'd still have three meals a day, shelter, medicine.... (But medicine would not bankrupt us like it does in America now, if you have to have some minor surgery or something.)

Check out this graph.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/TEG50rHIcTI/AAAAAAAAN_k/P2vYUl5VwpU/s1600/farmjobs.jpg

Ever since the advent of agriculture, until very recently in human history, most everyone was directly involved in providing food for themselves and their communities.  Now, in the USA, less than 2% are doing so.  As machines came to gobble up those human labor hours per capita, folks were free to use their time differently. But they still had to have a means of livelihood, but in the so-called "developed world," livelihood and real needs (and necessities -- which are slightly distinct categories) became increasingly disentangled.   

What is a livelihood?:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livelihood

Most people in the so called "developed world" now depend utterly upon a luxury economy in order to have a livelihood! That is, to eat and house and clothe ourselves we need to overproduce and overconsume in an ecological anthropology sense.  If we stop overproducing and overconsuming, in the currently constructed material culture, we lose access to our most basic human needs. This is mass insanity! And money in this context is not best understood as petroleum, but the "lifeblood" of the madness I just illustrated.

Most of us can't see this madness, don't see it as madness. It takes practice and time to see it for the madness it is. We're brainwashed to call this system "progress" and "success" and "advancement".... But it is screaming madness, for sure. It may have been less mad had we kept its footprint much smaller and the world population of humans to around, say, 2 billion or less.  But one of the symptoms of this particular madness is that it has a major growth fetish. It wants to turn the whole of the natural world into itself. It is like the Borg on Star Trek that way. It wants to consume EVERYTHING. It has a voracious apatite and no real ability to be reasonable, rational or sane.  Money is its blood.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 08:25:04 AM by JRM »
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline luciddreams

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Re: Getting a conceptual and theoretical handle on bailouts
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2020, 08:27:07 AM »
While petroleum has long been a crucial component of "the economy," it's going way too far to identify money with petroleum. It's not going too far to connect or associate money and petroleum. But when we identify money with petroleum -- i.e., "$ = petro"-- that's just not so.

I often put the phrase "the economy" in quotes, because I have a particular lens, or angle, or set of goggles, I use when thinking about "the economy" and it's not at all like the set of goggles most economists use, nor most people in general.  My goggles are anthropological, and for me an 'economy' is best understood, first and foremost, as that portion of social and cultural life which falls under the heading of "material culture" in anthropological terms. So, for me, an economy is best understood as the means by which people access their most basic human needs, such as food, shelter, water..., basic material needs. Humans have always had extras in relation to basic human needs, but they were always a tiny fraction of "the economy". Now, in the so-called developed world, our basic needs are no longer central to our economy. They are no longer at the core of the economy. They are not even secondary, but tertiary to the basic form and structure of "the economy". That is, we do not have a needs-based economy. We have a luxury economy.  Very little of what we imagine to be essential to our lives is actually essential. 

Automobiles are the supreme example here. Most Americans imagine automobiles are a necessary part of our lives. But that's utter bullshit. When we have a thorough look at the concrete particulars of automobiles and the "car culture" in the USA from the lens of ecological anthropology, the entire phenomenon reveals itself for what it really is -- a material manifestation of mass insanity.  The same is true of those vast fields of skyscrapers in cities like New York, Seattle, Hong Kong.... (By the way, all of those ribbons of concrete and asphalt seen in cities and between them are part of the fabric of the automobile, not something separate from the automobile. Same with big box stores and fast food chains with drive-through purchasing. It's a single fabric, warp and woof.  And NONE of it is necessary, crucial or necessary.  We could walk away from it all and we'd all be better off. In material culture terms, we'd be fine. We'd still have three meals a day, shelter, medicine.... (But medicine would not bankrupt us like it does in America now, if you have to have some minor surgery or something.)

Check out this graph.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/TEG50rHIcTI/AAAAAAAAN_k/P2vYUl5VwpU/s1600/farmjobs.jpg

Ever since the advent of agriculture, until very recently in human history, most everyone was directly involved in providing food for themselves and their communities.  Now, in the USA, less than 2% are doing so.  As machines came to gobble up those human labor hours per capita, folks were free to use their time differently. But they still had to have a means of livelihood, but in the so-called "developed world," livelihood and real needs (and necessities -- which are slightly distinct categories) became increasingly disentangled.   

What is a livelihood?:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livelihood

Most people in the so called "developed world" now depend utterly upon a luxury economy in order to have a livelihood! That is, to eat and house and clothe ourselves we need to overproduce and overconsume in an ecological anthropology sense.  If we stop overproducing and overconsuming, in the currently constructed material culture, we lose access to our most basic human needs. This is mass insanity! And money in this context is not best understood as petroleum, but the "lifeblood" of the madness I just illustrated.

Most of us can't see this madness, don't see it as madness. It takes practice and time to see it for the madness it is. We're brainwashed to call this system "progress" and "success" and "advancement".... But it is screaming madness, for sure. It may have been less mad had we kept its footprint much smaller and the world population of humans to around, say, 2 billion or less.  But one of the symptoms of this particular madness is that it has a major growth fetish. It wants to turn the whole of the natural world into itself. It is like the Borg on Star Trek that way. It wants to consume EVERYTHING. It has a voracious apatite and no real ability to be reasonable, rational or sane.  Money is its blood.

I don't disagree with your sentiment.  I agree with it, but I'm talking about the world as it is, not as it should or could be. 

How is money not petroleum?  Can you imagine what would happen to the real world if we were to run out of petroleum energy tomorrow...just as a thought experiment as I know it doesn't happen that way in reality.  There is no economy without petroleum, at least not this economy. 

Would the world be a better place without petroleum?  Eventually...maybe...depending on how much technology we could hold on to.  You don't have to go very far into history to see that in many ways our lives are much better now.  Go back to say 1860 and have a look.  Medicine then was shirtless doctors covered in blood sawing off limbs.  A bit of laudanum or chloroform was all the soldier could hope for.  Literal piles of limbs feet high as the field surgeon tossed another leg or arm onto it.  Infant mortality was a lot higher.  Average life expectancy was around 40 years old.  What made all of that better?  Just a simple catheter used to to give fluids or medicine intravenously is made of plastic which is a petroleum byproduct. 

Not only does petroleum provide our civilization with the energy necessary to operate, it also provides us with the bulk of the materials we use by way of plastic.  Money is nothing without petroleum. 

Offline luciddreams

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Re: Getting a conceptual and theoretical handle on bailouts
« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2020, 08:33:10 AM »
Can somebody help me out.....I'm trying to remember the guy who was probably among the first to make YT videos about debt based money. Before Chris Martenson...before everybody.

All I can remember is that he was an early blogger whose personal history involved working on WS...maybe he was a Canadian....Jesuit schooled as I remember....he was on a mission from God to change things.....he eventually quit blogging. I got the impression he might be entering the priesthood as an alternative to trying to change the world.

I know I posted some of his stuff way back...and even looked him up again years later to see if he ever went back to blogging....he didn't.

He had a pyramid graphic....debt based money pyramid...how wealth flows to the top. He was great....

Maybe a J name? Jason something? Not sure on that part.

Been obsessing about this now for 24 hours....lol

Is this like a riddle Eddie?  Are you making a point?  The "lol" on the end makes me think I'm missing something. 

Offline Eddie

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Re: Getting a conceptual and theoretical handle on bailouts
« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2020, 08:46:29 AM »
Can somebody help me out.....I'm trying to remember the guy who was probably among the first to make YT videos about debt based money. Before Chris Martenson...before everybody.

All I can remember is that he was an early blogger whose personal history involved working on WS...maybe he was a Canadian....Jesuit schooled as I remember....he was on a mission from God to change things.....he eventually quit blogging. I got the impression he might be entering the priesthood as an alternative to trying to change the world.

I know I posted some of his stuff way back...and even looked him up again years later to see if he ever went back to blogging....he didn't.

He had a pyramid graphic....debt based money pyramid...how wealth flows to the top. He was great....

Maybe a J name? Jason something? Not sure on that part.

Been obsessing about this now for 24 hours....lol

Is this like a riddle Eddie?  Are you making a point?  The "lol" on the end makes me think I'm missing something.

No, just sincerely trying to find some old stuff I liked years and years ago now.  I am thinking now his name was Jason Schnabel....but I can't find anything under that name anymore that is relevant. Maybe I have the name slightly wrong. Just hoping somebody on the Diner might recall.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline RE

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Re: Getting a conceptual and theoretical handle on bailouts
« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2020, 10:06:12 AM »
Can somebody help me out.....I'm trying to remember the guy who was probably among the first to make YT videos about debt based money. Before Chris Martenson...before everybody.

All I can remember is that he was an early blogger whose personal history involved working on WS...maybe he was a Canadian....Jesuit schooled as I remember....he was on a mission from God to change things.....he eventually quit blogging. I got the impression he might be entering the priesthood as an alternative to trying to change the world.

I know I posted some of his stuff way back...and even looked him up again years later to see if he ever went back to blogging....he didn't.

He had a pyramid graphic....debt based money pyramid...how wealth flows to the top. He was great....

Maybe a J name? Jason something? Not sure on that part.

Been obsessing about this now for 24 hours....lol

Damon Vrabel.  He has a lot of vids up.  Here's #1.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/lT4VXF1XJYk" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/lT4VXF1XJYk</a>

RE
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Re: Getting a conceptual and theoretical handle on bailouts
« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2020, 10:19:45 AM »

Damn the Diner has been a productive place over the years eh? Thank you RE!
YW.

That's just my stuff.  There's a lot of good econ articles from Steve Ludlum (Steve from Virginia) also.  Here's one:

http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/blog/2014/06/06/aimless-circling-of-doom/

Here's a vid with Steve, Gail Tverberg, Ugo Bardi, Monsta & me:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/BnByO2E1Y4w" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/BnByO2E1Y4w</a>

RE



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Offline Eddie

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Re: Getting a conceptual and theoretical handle on bailouts
« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2020, 11:56:10 AM »
Can somebody help me out.....I'm trying to remember the guy who was probably among the first to make YT videos about debt based money. Before Chris Martenson...before everybody.

All I can remember is that he was an early blogger whose personal history involved working on WS...maybe he was a Canadian....Jesuit schooled as I remember....he was on a mission from God to change things.....he eventually quit blogging. I got the impression he might be entering the priesthood as an alternative to trying to change the world.

I know I posted some of his stuff way back...and even looked him up again years later to see if he ever went back to blogging....he didn't.

He had a pyramid graphic....debt based money pyramid...how wealth flows to the top. He was great....

Maybe a J name? Jason something? Not sure on that part.

Been obsessing about this now for 24 hours....lol

Damon Vrabel.  He has a lot of vids up.  Here's #1.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/lT4VXF1XJYk" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/lT4VXF1XJYk</a>

RE

Boy..I wasn't that close, was I?  Thank you!

I recommend Damon Vrabel to anybody who never watched him in the old days.        :)
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

 

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