AuthorTopic: Can white people experience racism?  (Read 957 times)

Offline knarf

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Can white people experience racism?
« on: May 29, 2020, 01:15:30 PM »

It all comes down to power (Picture: Ella Byworth for Metro.co.uk)

In its most simplistic definition, racism is prejudice or discrimination directed at someone of a different race – based on the belief that your own race is superior. Taking this definition at its word, then, would suggest that it is possible for a person of any race to experience racism if someone treats them badly for this reason – even white people. But this definition of racism leaves out one crucial element: The power structures that uphold and perpetuate racism. Racism doesn’t exist in a vacuum. It exists within a hierarchical structure with power at its core. Racism only works because one group has power and other groups do not. And it is white people who – historically, and in the West at least – hold the power when it comes to racial divides, thanks to centuries of Eurocentric beliefs and structures that continue to privilege and centre whiteness. Think about it in terms of the effects If an ethnic minority person treats a white person badly because of inherent prejudice against white people, that is wrong and completely unacceptable, but the wider ramifications are likely to be less significant than if it were the other way around. If a white person treats an ethnic minority badly because of the colour of their skin, not only is it morally wrong, it can also have serious and dangerous implications for the life and prospects of that person. Prejudice against white people might make individuals feel bad, but prejudice against ethnic minorities can lead to structural, systemic and lasting disadvantages (in education, healthcare, disproportionate policing, career prospects, among other areas), and this is what makes it racism. White people would only experience racism if the existing power structures enabled prejudice against them to cause this kind of widespread negative impact – as it does for people of colour. But that’s not how society currently works. Can white people experience racial prejudice? In a word, yes. Stereotypes and negative beliefs about white people are examples of racial prejudice – but not racism. Which, to be clear, is still wrong. Prejudice directed at any group based on a set of pre-conceived assumptions is never a good thing, and almost always leads to behaviour that is hurtful and causes harm. The difference between racial prejudice and racism is the lack of any power structure weighted in favour of a particular race. ‘There is no doubt that white people can experience discrimination, harassment and be the victim of prejudice,’ explains psychologist and anti-racism scholar Guilaine Kinouani. ‘We could even argue in some contexts they can be the victims of racial hatred. However, no matter how condemnable these acts or attitudes are, we should be careful, as has been now argued for decades, not to confuse individual acts of prejudice or bigotry with racism, which, as a system, is ubiquitous and determinative of life course, opportunities and experiences.’

White people can indeed face stereotypical assumptions based on their skin colour and hence encounter racial prejudice. But this cannot be called racism, because of the inherent systemic imbalance of power between those with lighter skin colour and people of colour. Racial prejudice can affect people on an individual level, but it would not have the same effect on a larger social and cultural level because it is only when stereotypes are bolstered by power, such as through a eurocentric model of thinking, that it creates systemic and structural racism and oppression that people of colour have encountered throughout history. Dr Pragya Agarwal, author and behavioural scientist Guilaine adds that racism as a system is supported by institutional power and historical myths about the socially constructed inferiority of certain groups; people of colour. ‘It is a system which has a history spanning several centuries, a system which has become part of the very fabric of our society and, which ultimately continues to place increased worth on the lives and bodies of white people,’ explains Guilaine.

‘Fundamentally, without socially sanctioned power, what we’re only ever going to be left with is racial bigotry rather than a system of racial oppression. ‘This distinction matters, and erasing it is not only intellectually lazy and disingenuous, but it is also harmful, creates false equivalencies and therefore feeds racial illiteracy. Further, it stops us from tackling structural issues.’ The terms ‘racism’ and ‘prejudice’ are not interchangeable, and to remove the element of power from the definition of racism is overly simplistic and ignores the real and damaging impact racism has on the lives of ethnic minorities. What is ‘reverse racism’? ‘Reverse racism’ is the concept that the dominant racial group in a society – white people – can experience racism at the hands of minority groups. People of colour can be accused of ‘reverse racism’ when they carve out safe spaces for themselves. For example, a ‘black girls fitness club’ might be accused of ‘reverse racism’ for not including white people in their group. But most race academics regard ‘reverse racism’ as a myth. They say it doesn’t exist because of the one-way nature of those all-important power structures mentioned above. The theoretical ‘black girls fitness club’ is necessary because white people are, by default, welcome in any fitness group, whereas black women may feel excluded or unwelcome in spaces where they are a minority. That is the difference.

White American activist Tim Wise explains it really succinctly in a 2002 essay: ‘”n*gger” was and is a term used by whites to dehumanise blacks, to imply their inferiority, to “put them in their place” if you will, the same cannot be said of “honky”: after all, you can’t put white people in their place when they own the place to begin with. ‘Power is like body armour,’ Tim continues. ‘And while not all white folks have the same degree of power, there is a very real extent to which all of us have more than we need vis-à-vis people of colour: at least when it comes to racial position, privilege and perceptions.’ It isn’t hard to understand why some people may argue for the existence of ‘reverse racism’. Most white people will face hardships and struggles, and the privileges that come with whiteness aren’t in any way a guarantee of an easy life. So, to some, to say that white people cannot experience racism implies that all white people have an easy life. But that’s not what it means at all. It does not mean that white people don’t have struggles, or face prejudice, discrimination or any other kind of hardship. It simply means that when it comes to racism specifically, the structures of society mean white people will always hold more power than people of colour.


We need to be able to talk about racism.

his series is an in-depth look at racism in the UK in 2020. We aim to look at how, where and why racist attitudes and biases impact people of colour from all walks of life. It's vital to improve the language we have to talk about racism and start the difficult conversations about inequality. We want to hear from you - if you have a personal story or experience of racism that you would like to share get in touch: metrolifestyleteam@metro.co.uk Do you have a story about an experience of racism that you would like to share? Get in touch: MetroLifestyleTeam@metro.co.uk. MORE: People of colour have to ‘code-switch’ to fit in with white norms MORE: Muslims experience ‘shared suffering’ when other Muslims go through trauma MORE: Institutional racism is more harmful than individual racism

https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/09/can-white-people-experience-racism-12340542/
« Last Edit: May 29, 2020, 04:13:30 PM by knarf »
Mark Twain — 'There are many humorous things in the world; among them, the white man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages.'

Offline Eddie

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Re: Can white people experience racism?
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2020, 02:54:41 PM »

It all comes down to power (Picture: Ella Byworth for Metro.co.uk)

In its most simplistic definition, racism is prejudice or discrimination directed at someone of a different race – based on the belief that your own race is superior. Taking this definition at its word, then, would suggest that it is possible for a person of any race to experience racism if someone treats them badly for this reason – even white people. But this definition of racism leaves out one crucial element: The power structures that uphold and perpetuate racism. Racism doesn’t exist in a vacuum. It exists within a hierarchical structure with power at its core. Racism only works because one group has power and other groups do not. And it is white people who – historically, and in the West at least – hold the power when it comes to racial divides, thanks to centuries of Eurocentric beliefs and structures that continue to privilege and centre whiteness. Think about it in terms of the effects If an ethnic minority person treats a white person badly because of inherent prejudice against white people, that is wrong and completely unacceptable, but the wider ramifications are likely to be less significant than if it were the other way around. If a white person treats an ethnic minority badly because of the colour of their skin, not only is it morally wrong, it can also have serious and dangerous implications for the life and prospects of that person. Prejudice against white people might make individuals feel bad, but prejudice against ethnic minorities can lead to structural, systemic and lasting disadvantages (in education, healthcare, disproportionate policing, career prospects, among other areas), and this is what makes it racism. White people would only experience racism if the existing power structures enabled prejudice against them to cause this kind of widespread negative impact – as it does for people of colour. But that’s not how society currently works. Can white people experience racial prejudice? In a word, yes. Stereotypes and negative beliefs about white people are examples of racial prejudice – but not racism. Which, to be clear, is still wrong. Prejudice directed at any group based on a set of pre-conceived assumptions is never a good thing, and almost always leads to behaviour that is hurtful and causes harm. The difference between racial prejudice and racism is the lack of any power structure weighted in favour of a particular race. ‘There is no doubt that white people can experience discrimination, harassment and be the victim of prejudice,’ explains psychologist and anti-racism scholar Guilaine Kinouani. ‘We could even argue in some contexts they can be the victims of racial hatred. However, no matter how condemnable these acts or attitudes are, we should be careful, as has been now argued for decades, not to confuse individual acts of prejudice or bigotry with racism, which, as a system, is ubiquitous and determinative of life course, opportunities and experiences.’

White people can indeed face stereotypical assumptions based on their skin colour and hence encounter racial prejudice. But this cannot be called racism, because of the inherent systemic imbalance of power between those with lighter skin colour and people of colour. Racial prejudice can affect people on an individual level, but it would not have the same effect on a larger social and cultural level because it is only when stereotypes are bolstered by power, such as through a eurocentric model of thinking, that it creates systemic and structural racism and oppression that people of colour have encountered throughout history. Dr Pragya Agarwal, author and behavioural scientist Guilaine adds that racism as a system is supported by institutional power and historical myths about the socially constructed inferiority of certain groups; people of colour. ‘It is a system which has a history spanning several centuries, a system which has become part of the very fabric of our society and, which ultimately continues to place increased worth on the lives and bodies of white people,’ explains Guilaine.

‘Fundamentally, without socially sanctioned power, what we’re only ever going to be left with is racial bigotry rather than a system of racial oppression. ‘This distinction matters, and erasing it is not only intellectually lazy and disingenuous, but it is also harmful, creates false equivalencies and therefore feeds racial illiteracy. Further, it stops us from tackling structural issues.’ The terms ‘racism’ and ‘prejudice’ are not interchangeable, and to remove the element of power from the definition of racism is overly simplistic and ignores the real and damaging impact racism has on the lives of ethnic minorities. What is ‘reverse racism’? ‘Reverse racism’ is the concept that the dominant racial group in a society – white people – can experience racism at the hands of minority groups. People of colour can be accused of ‘reverse racism’ when they carve out safe spaces for themselves. For example, a ‘black girls fitness club’ might be accused of ‘reverse racism’ for not including white people in their group. But most race academics regard ‘reverse racism’ as a myth. They say it doesn’t exist because of the one-way nature of those all-important power structures mentioned above. The theoretical ‘black girls fitness club’ is necessary because white people are, by default, welcome in any fitness group, whereas black women may feel excluded or unwelcome in spaces where they are a minority. That is the difference.

White American activist Tim Wise explains it really succinctly in a 2002 essay: ‘”n*gger” was and is a term used by whites to dehumanise blacks, to imply their inferiority, to “put them in their place” if you will, the same cannot be said of “honky”: after all, you can’t put white people in their place when they own the place to begin with. ‘Power is like body armour,’ Tim continues. ‘And while not all white folks have the same degree of power, there is a very real extent to which all of us have more than we need vis-à-vis people of colour: at least when it comes to racial position, privilege and perceptions.’ It isn’t hard to understand why some people may argue for the existence of ‘reverse racism’. Most white people will face hardships and struggles, and the privileges that come with whiteness aren’t in any way a guarantee of an easy life. So, to some, to say that white people cannot experience racism implies that all white people have an easy life. But that’s not what it means at all. It does not mean that white people don’t have struggles, or face prejudice, discrimination or any other kind of hardship. It simply means that when it comes to racism specifically, the structures of society mean white people will always hold more power than people of colour.


We need to be able to talk about racism.

his series is an in-depth look at racism in the UK in 2020. We aim to look at how, where and why racist attitudes and biases impact people of colour from all walks of life. It's vital to improve the language we have to talk about racism and start the difficult conversations about inequality. We want to hear from you - if you have a personal story or experience of racism that you would like to share get in touch: metrolifestyleteam@metro.co.uk Do you have a story about an experience of racism that you would like to share? Get in touch: MetroLifestyleTeam@metro.co.uk. MORE: People of colour have to ‘code-switch’ to fit in with white norms MORE: Muslims experience ‘shared suffering’ when other Muslims go through trauma MORE: Institutional racism is more harmful than individual racism

https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/09/can-white-people-experience-racism-12340542/

Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/09/can-white-people-experience-racism-12340542/?ito=cbshare
Twitter: https://twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/MetroUK/[/b]

I tried hard to let this one just go by....but I'm not.....sorry about that..

To quote the author:

In its most simplistic definition, racism is prejudice or discrimination directed at someone of a different race – based on the belief that your own race is superior.

The idea that a 30 year old lifestyle writer from Sheffield, England can somehow tell me anything I don't already know about this subject, which has been front and center for my entire life....for 60 plus years......and have the  message NOT be simplistic....is pretty unlikely.

I find this patronizing.....and although well-meant....even a little insulting. It's the equivalent of me telling you what Buddhism "really means", Knarf.

I remember apartheid. My school was integrated the fourth grade. I watched the civil rights marches on television, and I remember Emmet Till. I remember the day Martin Luther King was assassinated.

I've also experienced reverse discrimination...because there are places, lots of them, where black and brown people do have the power. Like Mexico and the VI. See how far your white privilege gets you in a Mexican jail. Money is a better bet.

And  yellow people. Try China. Put all the Chinese racists in a room with all the white racists and you'd be hard pressed to see anybody white IN that crowd.

I don't need a person of color or a white liberal to 'splain racism to me.....and tell me what a white person can and can't experience. This is a facile explanation of a really complicated subject.

I also grew up in the American South, and I know what a real racist is......no problem.  I've known redneck racists and I've known intellectual racists. I've even known very  well-intentioned patriarchal racists who truly cared about black people. I wrote about that here.

Rich ones and poor ones. The racists in my acquaintance have all been white...but that's because of where I live.

It is this NARRATIVE..... of  pervasive, modern, ongoing, INSTITUTIONAL racism that this author wants to sell me......that I don't  buy. Because I remember what that was like, really like, back when it was a lot more of a real thing than it is now.

Feel free to delete this response before Surly even sees it. I know what he thinks about it.
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Offline knarf

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Re: Can white people experience racism?
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2020, 04:23:20 PM »

Yea, I agree that particular view is warped that you emphasized. I was seeing if anyone has elucidated the difference of individual's being racist creeps, and institutional racism...it's history ( in all countries )... and it appears to be a part of culture building everywhere. I can understand it from an anthropological lens...protect your family and tribe from the dangerous unknown, but then I see it being politicized in ALL different manners and statistics, and social movements about how inequality effects those of color more the whites. It is insane how each of us HAVE to have some opinion about it. It needs fixing, that's all I can conclude.


I tried hard to let this one just go by....but I'm not.....sorry about that..

To quote the author:

In its most simplistic definition, racism is prejudice or discrimination directed at someone of a different race – based on the belief that your own race is superior.

The idea that a 30 year old lifestyle writer from Sheffield, England can somehow tell me anything I don't already know about this subject, which has been front and center for my entire life....for 60 plus years......and have the  message NOT be simplistic....is pretty unlikely.

I find this patronizing.....and although well-meant....even a little insulting. It's the equivalent of me telling you what Buddhism "really means", Knarf.

I remember apartheid. My school was integrated the fourth grade. I watched the civil rights marches on television, and I remember Emmet Till. I remember the day Martin Luther King was assassinated.

I've also experienced reverse discrimination...because there are places, lots of them, where black and brown people do have the power. Like Mexico and the VI. See how far your white privilege gets you in a Mexican jail. Money is a better bet.

And  yellow people. Try China. Put all the Chinese racists in a room with all the white racists and you'd be hard pressed to see anybody white IN that crowd.

I don't need a person of color or a white liberal to 'splain racism to me.....and tell me what a white person can and can't experience. This is a facile explanation of a really complicated subject.

I also grew up in the American South, and I know what a real racist is......no problem.  I've known redneck racists and I've known intellectual racists. I've even known very  well-intentioned patriarchal racists who truly cared about black people. I wrote about that here.

Rich ones and poor ones. The racists in my acquaintance have all been white...but that's because of where I live.

It is this NARRATIVE..... of  pervasive, modern, ongoing, INSTITUTIONAL racism that this author wants to sell me......that I don't  buy. Because I remember what that was like, really like, back when it was a lot more of a real thing than it is now.

Feel free to delete this response before Surly even sees it. I know what he thinks about it.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2020, 04:30:06 PM by knarf »
Mark Twain — 'There are many humorous things in the world; among them, the white man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages.'

Offline luciddreams

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Re: Can white people experience racism?
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2020, 04:55:26 AM »
I didn't read the article, but I'd like to answer the question.  The answer is yes, white people can experience racism.  Also, I don't like the term "reverse racism" because it makes no sense.  If you belong to a race than racism can pertain to you.  Wouldn't "reverse racism" just mean loving another race?  As in not being racist. 

A recent anecdote from my life as a trucker:

I haul chemicals in a very large tanker.  To deliver those chemicals I have to use 20 foot long hoses and sometimes I may need to use three sections of hose.  I also use all manner of fittings to hook up to the customers end.  Every customer is different.  At any rate, after delivery I have to take the tank to a tank wash.  I drop the tank and fill out some paperwork.  Then I have to get my hoses and fittings washed.  It usually takes about five minutes for the tank wash employee to clean a hose and a fitting. 

Occasionally here recently I have to use the tank wash in Atlanta.  Literally every employee is black.  I can tell by the way they look at me, ignore me when I'm seeking direction on what to do, or otherwise try to get their attention that they hate me because I'm white.  I am very polite when interacting, as I am with all people.  I say ma'm and sir no matter who you are.  I say please and thank you.  I smile at you.  I am polite and respectful and I don't give a rats popcorn fart what color your skin is.  It changes nothing about how I view you or treat you.

Yesterday they made me wait an hour before they cleaned my hoses and fittings.  I had been away from my family for a week.  I was going home after I got my hoses cleaned.  I just had to sit and wait longer because I'm white.  It comes from a place of racism.  Because I'm white and they hate me.  You can tell when someone hates you because of the color of your skin because of the way they look at you.  Like you are dog shit on the bottom of their shoe. 

This is how you create a racist out of someone who is not a racist.  The natural reaction is to want to hate back.  It's especially egregious because it has nothing to do with your character.  It's not something you can do anything about.  It shouldn't matter, but it does. 

I run into black people who look at me like I'm dog shit all of the time in my travels.  They don't know me.  Doesn't matter.  They hate me because I'm white. 

Do I have white privilege?  Yep.  Sure do.  I know that exists as well.  Is that my fault?  Nope, sure isn't.  Should I deprive my children of a better life simply because they are my white children?  Nope.  How is that fair to them?  They don't care what color your skin is either.  We all want to provide our children with a better life.  Well...most of us do.  Growing up without a father does not generally cultivate upright men.  It tends to cultivate baby men who wear their pants around their ankles and who stare at people of a different color like they are dog shit simply because they are a different color.  That's racism no matter what your color. 

So yes, white people can most certainly experience racism.  I do all of the time.  I run into people who hate me just because I'm white.  They will make me wait longer just because I'm white.  I had nothing to do with the history of slavery or Jim Crowe laws in this country.  I've never been prejudice.  I didn't even understand the concept as a child.  Now I have to resist the impulse to be racists and hate back.  That's the way these things work.  Hate only makes more hate.  Only love creates more love.  The thing to do with hate is to love it back. 

Racism is a scourge to our one race that is Homo Sapiens.  Wise man my ass. 

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Re: Can white people experience racism?
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2020, 07:21:08 AM »
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Offline K-Dog

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Re: Can white people experience racism?
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2020, 08:25:38 AM »
Yes
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Re: Can white people experience racism?
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2020, 08:32:58 AM »
Yes

Obviously.  Just take a trip to China or Japan.  You are "Gaijin".  They look at Caucasians as inferior, just as Whites in this country see Blacks as inferior.  As I have written on many occasions before on this topic, Racism has its roots in Economics, it's not really about skin color.  I'm not going to rehash that one for the umpteenth million time.

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« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 09:01:20 AM by RE »
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Offline K-Dog

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Re: Can white people experience racism?
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2020, 08:38:43 AM »
The article is like something written well but the paper it was written on was crumpled up and somehow the contents got crumpled too.  Nice pictures.

I started reading it and somewhere in the roller coaster of reading it about half way through I paused.  A nauseous ride which should be smooth over a simple concept made overly complicated.  I figured a woman must be behind this self-serving morass so I stopped and checked.

I had a fifty fifty chance but not really.  Women take more words to explain the same thing.  I'm not judging.  On average it is a fact. 
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Re: Can white people experience racism?
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2020, 08:51:39 AM »
Yes

Not in the FSoA.
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Re: Can white people experience racism?
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2020, 08:57:52 AM »
The idea that a 30 year old lifestyle writer from Sheffield, England can somehow tell me anything I don't already know about this subject, which has been front and center for my entire life....for 60 plus years......and have the  message NOT be simplistic....is pretty unlikely.

I hear you.

Here is how it is for me.  I grew up where everyone was white.  My dentist was Japaneses about the only Asian I knew.  He was in a WWII internment camp.  A gentile man who passed on a buddhist calmness to me.  Blacks I knew because they were flown in by my fathers church from Africa as guests to talk about civil rights and stuff.  Missionaries had something to do with that action.  Obama's daddy came over with similar connections.

This meant that on a day to day basis I was not infected with racism.  For the most part the whites were third and fourth generations immigrants from Scandinavia and that influence had civilized the local American population with brains.  But people had come from other parts of the country and they had brought their vile disgusting shit with them.  It was my first experience with alien lizard blood and I saw how those of the racist reptile brain could walk among us and pass for normal.  Then I moved and I have seen ugly racism from both sides all my life and I don't need anyone else telling me about it. 

Hard core black white haters are every bit as ugly as a pink good old white boys with a third grade educations who think they are better than everyone else.  And who hate whites the most.  Japanese.  I was once in a situation where I was able to overhear six Japanese businessmen who thought they were alone.  I did not even half to speak Japanese.  The rule was they were not suppose to speak Japanese and practice their English in America.  That was the way the guy in charge wanted it.  Convenient for me.  I was a bellhop in a high end hotel and just around a plant out of sight.

Ugly, fortunately they are not all like that.  Racism favors the dull and every culture has a bell curve.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 09:42:51 AM by K-Dog »
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Re: Can white people experience racism?
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2020, 09:05:35 AM »
Yes

Not in the FSoA.

In the FSoA, Whites are the Ruling Class, just as in China the Han are the Ruling Class.  Uhgyurs are the Blacks in China, the Underclass.  It's economics, not Skin Color.

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« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 09:08:49 AM by RE »
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Offline K-Dog

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Re: Can white people experience racism?
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2020, 09:28:35 AM »
Yes

Not in the FSoA.

In the FSoA, Whites are the Ruling Class, just as in China the Han are the Ruling Class.  Uhgyurs are the Blacks in China, the Underclass.  It's economics, not Skin Color.

RE

As a white when do I get my share of free stuff?  I have worked all my life and I had good jobs because I educated myself.  I admit I may have gone to the best public school in the country in a time of Camelot but nobody was excluded where I was from going there.  The community believed education was the future.  That is how it was.  College I paid for.  All of it.  I paid tuition by working menial jobs the same way immigrants to this country do to climb their way up the social ladder.  I strategically picked companies with tuition reimbursement and used their programs to the max.  I did not get a special ride other than being lucky and for that I am grateful.  I started at minimum wage.

The fact is there is a white ruling class in America but it is based on MONEY and it is white because history worked out that way.  To the few with all the money who are in charge everyone else is a nigger regardless of skin color.  It has to be that way for them because the existing arrangement is not based on justice or equity.  Were the existing system based on merit then power would shift within a generation away from current power-holders and those in charge don't want that to happen.
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Offline knarf

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Re: Can white people experience racism?
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2020, 11:55:16 AM »
I lived in East New York city, for about 8 months, at the second to last stop of the overhead subway train. The building I moved into had rats at least 8 inches long running around eating the garbage folk had thrown out their windows in the high rise old tenement building. The neighborhood was about 80% Blacks and 20% Puerto Ricans. A guy pulled a gun on me in the street, he says "What the hell you doing here!" and wanted to rob me. I felt hated every time I walked down the street, went into buildings and even in rooms with others. When playing in another band I was in Atlantic City playing at the Playboy Casino. One day I drove my 1975 VW bug down to the beach to meet a friend, and I had to park my car across the great divide. A SIX lane road in front of the Casino's. On one side Casino's, the BOARDWALK, the beach and the Atlantic Ocean... on the other side a huge community of mainly Blacks in run down houses and Apts.. I got back to my car and noticed somethings were missing. My basketball, Jam box ( I used a lot to tape practices ), and my new high top sneakers.  :) I played in a Black based band in a mid sized bar in the Black section of Oakland, Calif..  I thought some of those dudes were going to lynch me when they saw I was playing guitar in this "soul" band. NOW, I am watching as the neighborhoods of marginalized folk riot in cites all over the US, and we have a dangerous President that is a malignant force.
  We have a monstrous problem/s to address, NOW!
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 05:23:40 PM by knarf »
Mark Twain — 'There are many humorous things in the world; among them, the white man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages.'

Offline Mrs-Dog

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Re: Can white people experience racism?
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2020, 04:23:09 PM »
The author of "Can White People Experience Racism" while hopefully well intentioned, redefines racism. To be sure and not add subjectivity, I consulted the dictionary: "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior." I'm confused. Referring to forms needing to be filled out when I was growing up, Race had boxes Black, White or Other. I thought then, as I do now, that "Race" didn't refer to ethnicity. In my mind, the reference was made concerning collective people, irrespective of skin color. A quick reference to the dictionary again "A race is a grouping of humans based on shared physical or social qualities into categories generally viewed as distinct by society." The box I checked was Other. Ethnically I am Eurocentric and Filipino. This, arguably, allowed me to witness first hand, prejudice on all sides. The reference to 'honky' and all things relating to Caucasians, used in the perjorative, were made non-haltingly, as were references relating to Blacks and Asians. As a teen, when I became aware that the use of racial epithets were wrong and said so, I was told on multiple occasions that it was ok, because the speaker 'considered me white' and in other groups I was told that 'You're a woman of color-right?' and continued denegrating whites.
Back to the topic at hand, can white people experience racism. I'm going to express several instances that I've experienced. My husband is white and these things occured while married. During our 4th/5th year of marriage, we lived in a large apartment complex in suburban Seattle and had a three year old son. Children played in our common areas, in what was our 'backyards.' A boy years older than my son was bullying him. At that time, a neighbor told me that the boy's mother was furious at my husband for 'watering down the race,' and having a child with me. The woman was so incensed, that she criticised most things about me, including that 'there was something wrong with me, that I had make up on by 9 o'clock in the morning!' I was told that she said these things, prejudical and more in the presence of her son and the neighbor's children. We all are aware how beliefs can be transferred, and this was evident, here. She ranted about my husband's comingling races, hating him. Then not allowing her children to play with our son. I tried having a conversation with her, but she was in full rant and I considered it futile. Fortunately we moved, shortly thereafter.
Apparently and unknowingly, we jumped from the pan into the fire. We moved into a house in a different suburban area, but close to Seattle. As my husband tried building a fence to HOA codes around the property, not only was the fence having to be measured to 6' exact specifications as dictated by the HOA President, but the neighbor hurriedly planted little trees overlapping our property line which halted his building. We had to hire someone to measure our exact property line for him to continue. This needed to be done as the fence had to be built on a hill that dropped onto our property, the top of which belonged to us. The County deputies were called multiple times by the neighbor as my husband had to stand on inches of the neighbor's property to build it. They planted more trees in various areas of what was our property, tried to claim a large tree that was ours, and called the deputies each time and inbetween. We tried speaking with her but she screamed personal attacks at me. Was this about trees and property? Finally, our son was riding his bike in the cul-de-sac and he ran in saying he thought someone was going to shoot him. When asked, he said that there was a red light that shining on him, scoping him, coming from the neighbor's house. Why would anyone do that to a child? I called the deputies then. We told them of months of trying to build the fence and attempts at stopping this, by the neighbors, of no support from the HOA (yet another story for another time), and the harassment we experienced. They went to speak with the neighbors, then came back to tell us that if the neighbors called them again, they were not responding because the neighbor is racist and she doesn't think I belonged in that neighborhood.
The last experience I'll illustrate was when we were on vacation in southern California. My watch stopped, and I needed a new battery. The watch was a gift to me from my mother and free batteries were provided for the life of the watch, wherever the watches were sold, as stated by the certificate that came in the container. We found a shopping mall with a store that sold the brand. We went to Costa Mesa shopping mall, found the store and I went to the counter where I stood for a very long time, without being asked if I needed assistance. After watching several clerks doing nothing demonstrable but talking to eachother, I asked if someone would please help me. The woman snapped "We're busy! Wait!" What seemed like a long time later, how would I know I didn't have a workable watch, my husband approached me asking what was taking so long. As I was telling him they wouldn't help me, two approached him, asking if they could help him.
As an on-going awareness process all City employees are required to take many societal classes on various topics; from racism to sexism to transexualism, but prior to those I've been acutely aware that discrimination does not have to be overt.
As the other half of these experiences, perhaps He can share some thoughts...

Offline knarf

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Re: Can white people experience racism?
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2020, 01:18:32 PM »
The author of "Can White People Experience Racism" while hopefully well intentioned, redefines racism. To be sure and not add subjectivity, I consulted the dictionary: "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior." I'm confused. Referring to forms needing to be filled out when I was growing up, Race had boxes Black, White or Other. I thought then, as I do now, that "Race" didn't refer to ethnicity. In my mind, the reference was made concerning collective people, irrespective of skin color. A quick reference to the dictionary again "A race is a grouping of humans based on shared physical or social qualities into categories generally viewed as distinct by society." The box I checked was Other. Ethnically I am Eurocentric and Filipino. This, arguably, allowed me to witness first hand, prejudice on all sides. The reference to 'honky' and all things relating to Caucasians, used in the perjorative, were made non-haltingly, as were references relating to Blacks and Asians. As a teen, when I became aware that the use of racial epithets were wrong and said so, I was told on multiple occasions that it was ok, because the speaker 'considered me white' and in other groups I was told that 'You're a woman of color-right?' and continued denegrating whites.
Back to the topic at hand, can white people experience racism. I'm going to express several instances that I've experienced. My husband is white and these things occured while married. During our 4th/5th year of marriage, we lived in a large apartment complex in suburban Seattle and had a three year old son. Children played in our common areas, in what was our 'backyards.' A boy years older than my son was bullying him. At that time, a neighbor told me that the boy's mother was furious at my husband for 'watering down the race,' and having a child with me. The woman was so incensed, that she criticised most things about me, including that 'there was something wrong with me, that I had make up on by 9 o'clock in the morning!' I was told that she said these things, prejudical and more in the presence of her son and the neighbor's children. We all are aware how beliefs can be transferred, and this was evident, here. She ranted about my husband's comingling races, hating him. Then not allowing her children to play with our son. I tried having a conversation with her, but she was in full rant and I considered it futile. Fortunately we moved, shortly thereafter.
Apparently and unknowingly, we jumped from the pan into the fire. We moved into a house in a different suburban area, but close to Seattle. As my husband tried building a fence to HOA codes around the property, not only was the fence having to be measured to 6' exact specifications as dictated by the HOA President, but the neighbor hurriedly planted little trees overlapping our property line which halted his building. We had to hire someone to measure our exact property line for him to continue. This needed to be done as the fence had to be built on a hill that dropped onto our property, the top of which belonged to us. The County deputies were called multiple times by the neighbor as my husband had to stand on inches of the neighbor's property to build it. They planted more trees in various areas of what was our property, tried to claim a large tree that was ours, and called the deputies each time and inbetween. We tried speaking with her but she screamed personal attacks at me. Was this about trees and property? Finally, our son was riding his bike in the cul-de-sac and he ran in saying he thought someone was going to shoot him. When asked, he said that there was a red light that shining on him, scoping him, coming from the neighbor's house. Why would anyone do that to a child? I called the deputies then. We told them of months of trying to build the fence and attempts at stopping this, by the neighbors, of no support from the HOA (yet another story for another time), and the harassment we experienced. They went to speak with the neighbors, then came back to tell us that if the neighbors called them again, they were not responding because the neighbor is racist and she doesn't think I belonged in that neighborhood.
The last experience I'll illustrate was when we were on vacation in southern California. My watch stopped, and I needed a new battery. The watch was a gift to me from my mother and free batteries were provided for the life of the watch, wherever the watches were sold, as stated by the certificate that came in the container. We found a shopping mall with a store that sold the brand. We went to Costa Mesa shopping mall, found the store and I went to the counter where I stood for a very long time, without being asked if I needed assistance. After watching several clerks doing nothing demonstrable but talking to eachother, I asked if someone would please help me. The woman snapped "We're busy! Wait!" What seemed like a long time later, how would I know I didn't have a workable watch, my husband approached me asking what was taking so long. As I was telling him they wouldn't help me, two approached him, asking if they could help him.
As an on-going awareness process all City employees are required to take many societal classes on various topics; from racism to sexism to transexualism, but prior to those I've been acutely aware that discrimination does not have to be overt.
As the other half of these experiences, perhaps He can share some thoughts...

First of all, it is really refreshing seeing a female post on the Diner! I can't even remember the last one. Curious.


Thank you for taking the time to tell us of your experiences with being a victim of all sides of racism. I am really glad you found a Deputy that could really see how prejudice your neighbor is/was and no more harassment from responding Deputies to your residence by a terribly ignorant couple. Fear and hatred of others is a pandemic that has been ongoing for centuries/millennia.
I happen to be a 1/4 Portuguese. I am darker than most white people I have seen. I could blend in with the Puerto Rican community when I lived in Far East New York.  :) I have been spared all prejudice except by Blacks coming down on me. I was attacked by about 8 teenage Black kids walking to a friends house in town, Columbia, Mo, who chased me down and even followed me when I ran across a 4 lane road to get away. They wanted to rob me. So I turned around to face them, and just as I did one of the young men had found a glass soda bottle and was jumping over his friends bringing down the bottle to my head. I lifted my left arm ( had a thick jacket on ) and the bottle busted all over the place as it hit my forearm.  Then I ran straight at them screaming at the top of my lungs "I am going to kill you all." They panicked and all ran away, and I ran full speed the next three blocks to my friends house. I have been told many times that I should of just given them my wallet, but I never thought of doing that. About the exact same thing happened when I was living on Haight St. in San Francisco. Men in a car tried to shake me down, by calling me names and threatening me once, and on walking into the Park I was tailed and harassed under a short tunnel by a small gang of teenage Black kids. Those things scared the piss out of me, but I was just 17 at the time. The time I fought back I was 47. 30 years of this shit everywhere and I had had it!

Thanks again for speaking out. Somehow our citizens have got to grow/wake the fuck up. I am still bewildered on how we are going to do that.
 
Mark Twain — 'There are many humorous things in the world; among them, the white man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages.'

 

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