AuthorTopic: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.  (Read 1152 times)

Offline Eddie

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Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« on: June 28, 2020, 02:19:10 PM »
I've been watching snippets of David Fuller's series on the current state of the Intellectual Dark Web. Fuller is a decent journalist......which to me includes asking hard questions.....but without doing it just to grind some particular axe.

Eric Weinstein is about as close as America comes to having a voice of reason in the midst of this culture war.....which is what's going on these days.... A culture war driven by bad ideas being promulgated by extremists on all sides of the political spectrum...a polarized population of wrong-headed people who are all so are so sure their cause is the "just"  one...that they can abandon all reason and let their deeply held feelings tell them what is right and wrong.

And which allows bad faith actors to feel justified in shouting down anyone who might disagree, engaging in all.kinds of name-calling, race-baiting, and class-shaming... which they think is okay, because their cause is so overwhelmingly obviously just....to them, anyway.

Fuller has been interviewing all the people who had their 15 minutes of fame when the IDW came to the attention of the general public.....I'm not convinced this is the last word on it, but I admire what he's trying to do, which I think is a worthwhile exercise.

My view is that any POV that can't be completely unpacked in one Tweet these days is way too complicated for most modern day Americans to waste time thinking about..

Anyway, I was listening to this and at just past 29 minutes Eric talks about why he doesn't waste his time engaging certain people on his channel. He said (and I'm paraphrasing) it's because they refuse to follow the rules for a  meaningful discourse.  They just want to score points for whatever narrow POV they happen to espouse, and if trolling works, they're willing to be trolls.

This is what has happened to the Diner., and that is the reason I'm less interested each and every day with talking to the regulars who post here. I might be wrong, but I think a lot of people come here to read me, judged by the thread traffic, and I no longer want to give my support to a site that is run by people who are more than willing to lie for a  "good cause"...and who work so hard in support of a narrative that makes less and less sense all the time.

The Diner always had a left of center bias, which I was okay with.....but the Social Justice Activist tribe is so far out in left field...and the Diner is so committed to THE NARRATIVE, that I know I'll have to vote with my feet. I will miss my participation, just like I missed TBP when I decided I didn't agree with their right-wing message. In the subsequent years they've gotten even further out in right field...so I don't suppose it's surprising to see the Diner move hard in the other direction.

My best bet is to stop writing altogether. There is no longer a platform for a guy like me, AFAIK. I have no need to write anything in order to survive and thrive in the current collapse. My best interests are served by turning invisible, like so many early collapse writers have done. The Diner is not my last stand. I don't need to waste a lot of time calling out trolls and arguing with stupid people about things they only think they understand.

Not David Duke. Just a matter of time, though, right?

Fucking troll.

 


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Offline RE

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2020, 02:31:54 PM »

Eric Weinstein is about as close as America comes to having a voice of reason in the midst of this culture war.....which is what's going on these days...

No, it is Class Warfare not Culture Warfare, and so far your Class. the Rich Class is Winning.


You can leave the Diner if you can break the habit of writing what you think.  If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.  Don't fuck with me though, and don't play me a game of Chess either.  You will lose.

RE
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Offline Eddie

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2020, 02:47:46 PM »

Eric Weinstein is about as close as America comes to having a voice of reason in the midst of this culture war.....which is what's going on these days...

No, it is Class Warfare not Culture Warfare, and so far your Class. the Rich Class is Winning.


You can leave the Diner if you can break the habit of writing what you think.  If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.  Don't fuck with me though, and don't play me a game of Chess either.  You will lose.

RE

You are all about the class shaming.....and I never agreed and I still don't agree.

Fuck with you? Fuck with YOU?

I'm not fucking with you. I'm publicly divorcing myself from a site that has gone off in a direction I don't like, and which I will no longer support.


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Offline RE

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2020, 03:00:00 PM »
I'm not fucking with you. I'm publicly divorcing myself from a site that has gone off in a direction I don't like, and which I will no longer support.

Si it goes.  Evetrybody Knows.

RE
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Offline JRM

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2020, 03:16:24 PM »
I've been watching snippets of David Fuller's series on the current state of the Intellectual Dark Web. Fuller is a decent journalist......which to me includes asking hard questions.....but without doing it just to grind some particular axe.

Eric Weinstein is about as close as America comes to having a voice of reason in the midst of this culture war.....which is what's going on these days.... A culture war driven by bad ideas being promulgated by extremists on all sides of the political spectrum...a polarized population of wrong-headed people who are all so are so sure their cause is the "just"  one...that they can abandon all reason and let their deeply held feelings tell them what is right and wrong.

And which allows bad faith actors to feel justified in shouting down anyone who might disagree, engaging in all.kinds of name-calling, race-baiting, and class-shaming... which they think is okay, because their cause is so overwhelmingly obviously just....to them, anyway.

Fuller has been interviewing all the people who had their 15 minutes of fame when the IDW came to the attention of the general public.....I'm not convinced this is the last word on it, but I admire what he's trying to do, which I think is a worthwhile exercise.

My view is that any POV that can't be completely unpacked in one Tweet these days is way too complicated for most modern day Americans to waste time thinking about..

Anyway, I was listening to this and at just past 29 minutes Eric talks about why he doesn't waste his time engaging certain people on his channel. He said (and I'm paraphrasing) it's because they refuse to follow the rules for a  meaningful discourse.  They just want to score points for whatever narrow POV they happen to espouse, and if trolling works, they're willing to be trolls.

This is what has happened to the Diner., and that is the reason I'm less interested each and every day with talking to the regulars who post here. I might be wrong, but I think a lot of people come here to read me, judged by the thread traffic, and I no longer want to give my support to a site that is run by people who are more than willing to lie for a  "good cause"...and who work so hard in support of a narrative that makes less and less sense all the time.

The Diner always had a left of center bias, which I was okay with.....but the Social Justice Activist tribe is so far out in left field...and the Diner is so committed to THE NARRATIVE, that I know I'll have to vote with my feet. I will miss my participation, just like I missed TBP when I decided I didn't agree with their right-wing message. In the subsequent years they've gotten even further out in right field...so I don't suppose it's surprising to see the Diner move hard in the other direction.

My best bet is to stop writing altogether. There is no longer a platform for a guy like me, AFAIK. I have no need to write anything in order to survive and thrive in the current collapse. My best interests are served by turning invisible, like so many early collapse writers have done. The Diner is not my last stand. I don't need to waste a lot of time calling out trolls and arguing with stupid people about things they only think they understand.

Not David Duke. Just a matter of time, though, right?

Fucking troll.

 


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Sorry, Eddie, but it isn't what you say.  You have been invited to engage fully, but have almost completely failed to do so. I would listen to and watch the videos (and read the articles and essays)  you put up and comment on them. You ignored the ones I put up and did not comment at all.  You don't seem to be here to exchange and test ideas in a reasonable, gentlemanly fashion, as you say you do. You appear to be here to expound your point of view without responding to time-consuming efforts on the part of other participants. 

You accuse others of being trapped in their narrow little conceptual bubbles, unwilling to honestly entertain other viewpoints. But I see evidence of you doing just this... and holding tight to it day after week after month.

RE's posts in the "Forum" are pretty short on time and effort. But mine were well-considered, took time and effort... and I got almost nothing from you for my time and effort. You preferred to do battle with the one-liners and name callers instead.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 03:34:12 PM by JRM »
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline RE

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2020, 03:59:48 PM »

RE's posts in the "Forum" are pretty short on time and effort.

This true of late to an extent.  Do you know why?  Because nothing you say, write or link to can change Eddie's mind.  He is Rich and has too much to lose if the "Commies" take over.  He hopes Cpitalism will contine for the rest of his life and you know, it would be so nice if BLM just went away! He NEEDS those 3 houses, his Mercedes and his EV he worked so hard for! BLM and Social Justice ideas in general disturbs his Wa.  The Diner Kitchen has gotten too hot for Eddie, so he went Walkabout now.

So it goes.  Everybody Knows.

RE
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 04:02:25 PM by RE »
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Offline BuddyJ

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2020, 04:06:20 PM »
This is what has happened to the Diner., and that is the reason I'm less interested each and every day with talking to the regulars who post here. I might be wrong, but I think a lot of people come here to read me, judged by the thread traffic, and I no longer want to give my support to a site that is run by people who are more than willing to lie for a  "good cause"...and who work so hard in support of a narrative that makes less and less sense all the time.

I have posted 70 times in 4 years, and for the crime of knowing, and saying, that some militia moron shooting someone vandalizing some statute was hardly the big event it was being portrayed as, that I am a troll.

70 posts as of this morning. 4 years a lurker. Instant troll for daring to make a practical observation as to what is, or is not, an important sign of collapse.

I liked reading your stuff Eddie, because it isn't just a recycling of "if you make more than minimum wage you are scum" screed. In this world, people aren't allowed to succeed via hard work, only by standing on the backs of the oppressed can you, or anyone else, make it to the lofty position of having some stuff.

Quote from: Eddie
The Diner always had a left of center bias, which I was okay with.....but the Social Justice Activist tribe is so far out in left field...and the Diner is so committed to THE NARRATIVE, that I know I'll have to vote with my feet. I will miss my participation, just like I missed TBP when I decided I didn't agree with their right-wing message. In the subsequent years they've gotten even further out in right field...so I don't suppose it's surprising to see the Diner move hard in the other direction.

Ahh shit Eddie.

Quote from: Eddie
My best bet is to stop writing altogether. There is no longer a platform for a guy like me, AFAIK. I have no need to write anything in order to survive and thrive in the current collapse. My best interests are served by turning invisible, like so many early collapse writers have done. The Diner is not my last stand. I don't need to waste a lot of time calling out trolls and arguing with stupid people about things they only think they understand.

Ahh shit Eddie.


Offline Eddie

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2020, 04:15:48 PM »
@JRM

Sorry, but your obsession with what you perceive as so important about the two subjects you seem to be so passionate about......the one being Critical Theory and the other Postmodernism, seemed to me to be......first and foremost.....a way to just put more mud into already muddy waters......

My only forays in these admittedly complex and difficult subjects were made to shine just a bit of light on the behavior of some dangerous and reprehensible people who are driven by their own versions of these, not necessarily your versions.

And my  goal was not to make the definitive statement on what either of those two weighty subjects might mean in some other context....orto to you as an amateur armchair philosopher.....

I never wished for you to explain to me why every source I read was somehow "not the real Critical Theory" or the real postmodernism....and that the social critics who mentioned them, like Jordan Peterson, whom you have such a major hard-on for........although you never quite got to mentioning specifics yourself...., other than posting long videos by your favorite philosophers.

But you are quite sure that JP committed "fraud on mankind"....even though you never wrote a single sentence that might really explain your point.

JP's writing speaks for itself. Nothing you'v written about him...or any of the many, many attack pieces Surly ever posted, has ever really been the least bit persuasive. It's filling the space with shit,  Steve Bannon tactics.

You just like to take my threads off on obscure tangents that almost nobody understands or cares about, as far as I can see, At best you are a distraction. At your worst you'e laying down cover fire for the people I'm calling out.

@RE

More class shaming. Big surprise.  Yeah, I 'm just delusional.  And you're a collapse genius. Enjoy your fame.





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Offline RE

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2020, 04:22:19 PM »

@RE

More class shaming. Big surprise.  Yeah, I 'm just delusional.  And you're a collapse genius. Enjoy your fame.

I am not and have not ever been in this game for Fame.  If I was, I wouldn't be such an asshole.  lol.  I just call 'em as I see 'em.

And yes, I do Class Shaming, because Rich People need to be Shamed.  They consume too many resources.  Like Tall People.  You are Tall AND Rcih!  A double Whammy!

RE
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Offline JRM

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2020, 04:24:19 PM »
This is what has happened to the Diner., and that is the reason I'm less interested each and every day with talking to the regulars who post here. I might be wrong, but I think a lot of people come here to read me, judged by the thread traffic, and I no longer want to give my support to a site that is run by people who are more than willing to lie for a  "good cause"...and who work so hard in support of a narrative that makes less and less sense all the time.

I have posted 70 times in 4 years, and for the crime of knowing, and saying, that some militia moron shooting someone vandalizing some statute was hardly the big event it was being portrayed as, that I am a troll.

70 posts as of this morning. 4 years a lurker. Instant troll for daring to make a practical observation as to what is, or is not, an important sign of collapse.

I liked reading your stuff Eddie, because it isn't just a recycling of "if you make more than minimum wage you are scum" screed. In this world, people aren't allowed to succeed via hard work, only by standing on the backs of the oppressed can you, or anyone else, make it to the lofty position of having some stuff.

Quote from: Eddie
The Diner always had a left of center bias, which I was okay with.....but the Social Justice Activist tribe is so far out in left field...and the Diner is so committed to THE NARRATIVE, that I know I'll have to vote with my feet. I will miss my participation, just like I missed TBP when I decided I didn't agree with their right-wing message. In the subsequent years they've gotten even further out in right field...so I don't suppose it's surprising to see the Diner move hard in the other direction.

Ahh shit Eddie.

Quote from: Eddie
My best bet is to stop writing altogether. There is no longer a platform for a guy like me, AFAIK. I have no need to write anything in order to survive and thrive in the current collapse. My best interests are served by turning invisible, like so many early collapse writers have done. The Diner is not my last stand. I don't need to waste a lot of time calling out trolls and arguing with stupid people about things they only think they understand.

Ahh shit Eddie.


I'm not going to go back and excavate precise direct quotes around this, but I will say that I reject the notion that to succeed or to have success is about having stuff, or money, or property, or the historically recent commonplace markers of "success".   In my view, success aught to be evaluated at least as much by what one offers or gives to others which is of genuine value as it is to have a nice home and a reasonably healthy bank account, etc.

The dominant culture in the USA is blind to what I just said, mostly.  Success, we are told, is always mostly about "me" and what I have achieved or accomplished for myself (and maybe also my family -- usually in material terms more than relational ones).

That paradigm is so dead for me. But it is alive and well in the mainstream of America, unfortunately. 

Okay, back to my Swahili practice.   :laugh:
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline Eddie

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2020, 04:30:59 PM »

@RE

More class shaming. Big surprise.  Yeah, I 'm just delusional.  And you're a collapse genius. Enjoy your fame.

I am not and have not ever been in this game for Fame.  If I was, I wouldn't be such an asshole.  lol.  I just call 'em as I see 'em.

And yes, I do Class Shaming, because Rich People need to be Shamed.  They consume too many resources.  Like Tall People.  You are Tall AND Rcih!  A double Whammy!

RE

That tall accusation is a little off-base too . I am not 6'2'' as you once wrote (I'm assuming because everybody pretty much looks tall from your perspective, just like a lot of people who aren't rich appear to you to be rich).

I'm not even quite 5'11" now, which was the very tallest I might have once been. Just goes to show.
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Offline Cam

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2020, 04:33:25 PM »
I'm gonna miss your writing Eddie. You have a perspective that I like hearing, especially when I ask my big life questions.
As this world disintegrates, do what you can to help build what comes next.

Offline RE

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2020, 04:34:56 PM »

@RE

More class shaming. Big surprise.  Yeah, I 'm just delusional.  And you're a collapse genius. Enjoy your fame.

I am not and have not ever been in this game for Fame.  If I was, I wouldn't be such an asshole.  lol.  I just call 'em as I see 'em.

And yes, I do Class Shaming, because Rich People need to be Shamed.  They consume too many resources.  Like Tall People.  You are Tall AND Rcih!  A double Whammy!

RE

That tall accusation is a little off-base too . I am not 6'2'' as you once wrote (I'm assuming because everybody pretty much looks tall from your perspective, just like a lot of people who aren't rich appear to you to be rich).

I'm not even quite 5'11" now, which was the very tallest I might have once been. Just goes to show.

Really?  I could have sworn you were at least 6'.

Well, 5'11" is still too Tall.  In the New Eugenics Movement,  nobody over 5'9 gets to reproduce.  :icon_sunny:

RE
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Offline JRM

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2020, 04:37:20 PM »
@JRM

Sorry, but your obsession with what you perceive as so important about the two subjects you seem to be so passionate about......the one being Critical Theory and the other Postmodernism, seemed to me to be......first and foremost.....a way to just put more mud into already muddy waters......

My only forays in these admittedly complex and difficult subjects were made to shine just a bit of light on the behavior of some dangerous and reprehensible people who are driven by their own versions of these, not necessarily your versions.

And my  goal was not to make the definitive statement on what either of those two weighty subjects might mean in some other context....orto to you as an amateur armchair philosopher.....

I never wished for you to explain to me why every source I read was somehow "not the real Critical Theory" or the real postmodernism....and that the social critics who mentioned them, like Jordan Peterson, whom you have such a major hard-on for........although you never quite got to mentioning specifics yourself...., other than posting long videos by your favorite philosophers.

But you are quite sure that JP committed "fraud on mankind"....even though you never wrote a single sentence that might really explain your point.

JP's writing speaks for itself. Nothing you'v written about him...or any of the many, many attack pieces Surly ever posted, has ever really been the least bit persuasive. It's filling the space with shit,  Steve Bannon tactics.

You just like to take my threads off on obscure tangents that almost nobody understands or cares about, as far as I can see, At best you are a distraction. At your worst you'e laying down cover fire for the people I'm calling out.

@RE

More class shaming. Big surprise.  Yeah, I 'm just delusional.  And you're a collapse genius. Enjoy your fame.


Eddie, because you have often SEEMED to be intellectually honest, somewhat openminded and curious to learn about things, I tried to explain some things to you which you have obviously not invested enough time or thought to consider whether it may have value and pertinence to what we were discussing.  You were apparently only interested in expounding and expressing your own viewpoint, and not in learning other viewpoints--or knowledge--, or you would not have failed so miserably to know what and why I did as I did in response to you. 

Learning takes time and effort, and you didn't care enough to invest time or effort, as is obvious.  Therefore, most of what you have just said to me is just empty and meaningless gibberish.

I had hoped with you that learning could be a two-way street, but it is clear you prefer a one way street … and prefer your own voice to all others.

My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline JRM

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2020, 04:42:43 PM »
I may also stop coming around here, as most of the posting is not INQUIRY-oriented, but rather opinion-oriented. I much prefer what I call "collaborative inquiry" on many topics, but that's very rare around here, and when it appears it is fleeting.  I may be in my mid-fifties, but I like to learn something every day, and not just fractured factoids in isolation, but meaningful points in relation with other meaningful points. This place is mostly about bouncing sound bytes around as if it added up to intelligent conversation.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 06:08:16 PM by JRM »
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

 

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