AuthorTopic: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.  (Read 1153 times)

Offline JRM

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2020, 04:45:48 PM »
"At best you are a distraction."

 -- Eddie

What a pal.
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline RE

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2020, 04:49:14 PM »
Oh Good Grief.  ANOTHER Quitting Post!   ::)



"I'm not gonna play in this Sandbox anymore!  Waa, waa, waa."

Just get the fuck over it for crying out loud!

RE
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Offline JRM

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2020, 05:16:40 PM »
"This stuff is not easy for me to understand in five minutes, therefore I choose to misrepresent it and pretend like it's an irrelevant distraction."
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline Surly1

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2020, 05:42:01 PM »
I may also stop coming around here, as most of the posting is not INQUIRY-oriented, but rather opinion-oriented. I much prefer what I call "collaborative inquiry" on many topics, but that's very rare around here, and when it appears it is fleeting.  I may be in my mid-fifties, but I like to learn something every day, and not just fractured factoids in isolation, but meaningful points in relation with other meaningful points. This place is mostly about bounding sound bytes around as if it added up to intelligent conversation.

The Forum used to be more along those lines, but has become very contentions lately vis a vis racial power relations. I am confident it will become more so again.

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Offline monsta666

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2020, 05:53:39 PM »
Probably be best to close that BLM thread. At least put it on cool down for a week. Everyone has said their piece and at this point people are just repeating themselves and getting pissed off in the process. Perhaps with that thread shut for a week it will allow for the opportunity for more productive topics to be discussed. As JRM alluded to I would like the topics to be more inquiry driven but one can only hope...

Offline JRM

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2020, 06:13:18 PM »
Probably be best to close that BLM thread. At least put it on cool down for a week. Everyone has said their piece and at this point people are just repeating themselves and getting pissed off in the process. Perhaps with that thread shut for a week it will allow for the opportunity for more productive topics to be discussed. As JRM alluded to I would like the topics to be more inquiry driven but one can only hope...

I'm not in favor of closing threads. I am in favor of collaborative inquiry as the basic style and approach here, but that would require commitment and effort to cultivate. I don't think it usually happens without commitment and effort.  I'm willing to give it a shot.
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline Cam

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2020, 06:23:14 PM »
Probably be best to close that BLM thread. At least put it on cool down for a week. Everyone has said their piece and at this point people are just repeating themselves and getting pissed off in the process. Perhaps with that thread shut for a week it will allow for the opportunity for more productive topics to be discussed. As JRM alluded to I would like the topics to be more inquiry driven but one can only hope...

This sounds like a good idea to me. I like asking big questions because I tend to get very wise responses, but anything inquiry driven sounds like more fun to me than reading people rip one another apart over a political issue.
As this world disintegrates, do what you can to help build what comes next.

Offline JRM

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2020, 06:40:50 PM »
Eddie is probably gone for good now.  And it is never nice or fair to argue against someone who is not present to argue on their own behalf.  So I'll be as kind as I can be, and as sensitive to him as is reasonable.

I honestly believed that in our conversations on BLM that both Critical Theory and postmodernism were beneficial to the conversation, rather than distracting from it, because (a) both had been misrepresented and maligned by the principal advocates which Eddie had brought forth to explain and defend Eddie's views on BLM.  And (b), because some of the conceptual frame and "tools" brought forth in these traditions were directly applicable to the nature of the debate and dialogue around BLM -- especially with regard to the motif of "science" versus "scientism" -- or the "naturalization" process which so often operates unconsciously (because it manifests as a kind of ideology, in the critical sense of that term).  Basically, BLM was being accused from several sides (including external sources) of being anti-scientific and irrational (because anti-scientific).  This, to my mind, makes Critical Theory's conceptual toolbox very relevant to the discussion! And it makes some of the items in the postmodernist toolbox quite relevant.

Two of the most common ways of shutting down a basically philosophical conversation is to either "naturalize" principal claims in an argument or to lean on some other absolutism, such as a theological claim which is not open to question.  Either "Nature makes it so" or "God makes it so".  Either approach slams the dialogue shut. 

Human beings, in my view, have no Absolute access to Absolute knowledge about our world. Reason, in my view, does not require Absolute certainty, and cannot function where Absolute Certainty pretends to be present.  Even the "laws" of logic are open to discussion, debate and controversy -- as anyone here can learn in an hour of googling on the web.

That said, I am a very strong believer in arithmetic, gravity and the applicability of basically Newtonian physics in most everyday applications. I like science, and value it tremendously.  But Wittgenstein's later in life discovery about language and logic was a profound one, and he gave up the notion and quest of human access to utter and final, Absolute Certainty.

Scientism is a persuasive illusion. But it is an illusion.  And the usefulness of science doesn't require a scientistic misunderstanding of the virtues of science.   Absolute certainty is neither necessary or useful in a reasonable life.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 06:47:03 PM by JRM »
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline RE

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2020, 07:35:55 PM »
I will not lock this thread at the moment.  If Monsta, Surly or K-Dog want to do that, they can.

Diners go Walkabout all the time.  Eddie went Walkabout for several months once.  So did Surly.  I have put myself in the Cooler a few times when I was getting too pissed off by what was ongoing inside the Diner.

If enough people do not buy what you are selling, it can be very frustrating.  Most Diners do not buy what Eddie sells, they won't eat at his Table. I think at the moment only LD will drink the Eddie Kool Aid.

I hope he returns, I like crossing swords with him.  lol.  But this is his choice to make.  If he can't take the Heat, it's time to get out of the Kitchen.



RE
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 07:42:29 PM by RE »
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Offline JRM

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2020, 07:45:54 PM »
I think we should get past the "crossing swords" and "doing battle" frame on what goes on here, or ought to be.  You know, the war metaphor.

A much more productive approach, in my opinion, would be what I have called "collaborative inquiry," an atmosphere in which we do challenge one another from time to time, but with the primary intention of exploring and discovering -- learning -- together.  With kindness, respect, appreciation and good will as the major flavor of the great dining at the Diner. 

Everyone here has useful knowledge and understanding, and we should appreciate one another more and be respectful and kind rather than combative or even competitive.  This doesn't mean we should not challenge mistaken facts or express doubt about perspectives, but can we try and do it in a spirit of caring for one another and what we're exploring together?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 07:47:33 PM by JRM »
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline RE

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2020, 07:52:29 PM »
I think we should get past the "crossing swords" and "doing battle" frame on what goes on here, or ought to be.  You know, the war metaphor.

A much more productive approach, in my opinion, would be what I have called "collaborative inquiry,"



Face punching happens regularly on the Diner.

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Offline JRM

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2020, 07:59:38 PM »
And farting, too.

My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline RE

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2020, 08:01:55 PM »
And farting, too.

Indeed.  Passing Gas is a popular Diner pastime.  ;D

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Offline Phil Rumpole

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2020, 12:04:09 AM »

RE's posts in the "Forum" are pretty short on time and effort.

This true of late to an extent.  Do you know why?  Because nothing you say, write or link to can change Eddie's mind.  He is Rich and has too much to lose if the "Commies" take over.  He hopes Cpitalism will contine for the rest of his life and you know, it would be so nice if BLM just went away! He NEEDS those 3 houses, his Mercedes and his EV he worked so hard for! BLM and Social Justice ideas in general disturbs his Wa.  The Diner Kitchen has gotten too hot for Eddie, so he went Walkabout now.

So it goes.  Everybody Knows.

RE

I prefer you expressing your own original opinions and cutting to the chase, that's being creative and concise. Pure academics can learn more and more, about less and less, until they know everything about nothing.

Women are like hurricanes: Wet and wild when they come, take your house when they leave

Offline Phil Rumpole

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Re: Name Calling Is Not A Coherent Argument.
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2020, 12:34:06 AM »
I've been watching snippets of David Fuller's series on the current state of the Intellectual Dark Web. Fuller is a decent journalist......which to me includes asking hard questions.....but without doing it just to grind some particular axe.

Eric Weinstein is about as close as America comes to having a voice of reason in the midst of this culture war.....which is what's going on these days.... A culture war driven by bad ideas being promulgated by extremists on all sides of the political spectrum...a polarized population of wrong-headed people who are all so are so sure their cause is the "just"  one...that they can abandon all reason and let their deeply held feelings tell them what is right and wrong.

And which allows bad faith actors to feel justified in shouting down anyone who might disagree, engaging in all.kinds of name-calling, race-baiting, and class-shaming... which they think is okay, because their cause is so overwhelmingly obviously just....to them, anyway.

Fuller has been interviewing all the people who had their 15 minutes of fame when the IDW came to the attention of the general public.....I'm not convinced this is the last word on it, but I admire what he's trying to do, which I think is a worthwhile exercise.

My view is that any POV that can't be completely unpacked in one Tweet these days is way too complicated for most modern day Americans to waste time thinking about..

Anyway, I was listening to this and at just past 29 minutes Eric talks about why he doesn't waste his time engaging certain people on his channel. He said (and I'm paraphrasing) it's because they refuse to follow the rules for a  meaningful discourse.  They just want to score points for whatever narrow POV they happen to espouse, and if trolling works, they're willing to be trolls.

This is what has happened to the Diner., and that is the reason I'm less interested each and every day with talking to the regulars who post here. I might be wrong, but I think a lot of people come here to read me, judged by the thread traffic, and I no longer want to give my support to a site that is run by people who are more than willing to lie for a  "good cause"...and who work so hard in support of a narrative that makes less and less sense all the time.

The Diner always had a left of center bias, which I was okay with.....but the Social Justice Activist tribe is so far out in left field...and the Diner is so committed to THE NARRATIVE, that I know I'll have to vote with my feet. I will miss my participation, just like I missed TBP when I decided I didn't agree with their right-wing message. In the subsequent years they've gotten even further out in right field...so I don't suppose it's surprising to see the Diner move hard in the other direction.

My best bet is to stop writing altogether. There is no longer a platform for a guy like me, AFAIK. I have no need to write anything in order to survive and thrive in the current collapse. My best interests are served by turning invisible, like so many early collapse writers have done. The Diner is not my last stand. I don't need to waste a lot of time calling out trolls and arguing with stupid people about things they only think they understand.

Not David Duke. Just a matter of time, though, right?

Fucking troll.

 


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/GGtWwln491U&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/GGtWwln491U&fs=1</a>

I was thinking probably not David D, but Tommy Robinson. Then I watch vid and find this guy mentioning Tommy. Note what he says about racists like him walking the fine public v private line. Read Knarfs article about the accidental radio on in squad car capturing 3 officers talking about enjoying killing blacks. How many more conversations go on not caught like that? On the news last week a swat type team was caught out here with something similar.  The attitude is prevalent. Half the white people Im friends with have been posting up or messaging me things falling not far short. All in the wake of BLM. It's not hard at all for such kindred spirits to find each other.

On trolling, he is not using it in the same sense as you. He refers to being in bad faith, but you are calling me a troll in the same way a zerohedge crackpot dismisses Pepe Escobar as a China troll.

Theres no need to quit, just quit the admin family therapy mudwrestling and leave the topic alone. Nobody wants to waste any more time and energy on it. I for one, will choose to believe you are not racist but incapable of understanding and drop it. There are many other important developments going on now to talk about
« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 12:43:23 AM by Phil Rumpole »
Women are like hurricanes: Wet and wild when they come, take your house when they leave

 

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