AuthorTopic: Climate  (Read 1162 times)

Offline JRM

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Climate
« on: June 26, 2020, 09:57:32 AM »
There are already threads in here on climate, of course, but they all seemed to have elaborate titles, and I wanted my thread title to be bare bones simple, so here we are.

Now that we have a bare-bones simple thread title I will post in just a bit. Stay tuned.
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline JRM

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Re: Climate
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2020, 10:49:00 AM »
I'm just going to lay out some of my perspective on various climate issues and topics here.  This is not an essay, but rather a numbered series of comments as they occur to me.

1.  I see anthropogenic climate disruption as probably the central contextualizing social and political topic and issue of our time in history.  A contextualizing topic or issue is one which provides context for many other topics and issues.  So, for example, we cannot honestly and informedly discuss economics or general politics topics and issues without including climate in that discussion. To do otherwise is like sweeping an elephant under a rug. Edit: After some reflection, I would now say that the climate crisis is one of several related major top contextualizing issues of our time. Resource depletion is another major one which is just as important, as is the global biodiversity crisis. These three are deeply intertwined.


2.  Some regard our climate situation as "too late" -- and propose that there is little or nothing we can -- or should try -- to do to mitigate further harm to our climate system.  This is not my take.  There is much uncertainty about how anthropogenic climate disruption will unfold in the future. It may be that a set of self-reinforcing positive feedback loops have already been set in which may render our efforts rather futile, but I think the right thing to do is to radically reduce anthropogenic greenhouse gases even thought it is possible that we've already fucked things up this bad already.   It is possible that if we both reduce GHG dramatically and employ the various known, safe and natural means of drawing down carbon out of the atmosphere (e.g., through forest and farming practices), we may end up with an inhabitable Earth and a much lowered loss of biodiversity.  But, of course, many other things must be done to protect and preserve biodiversity which have little or nothing directly to do with greenhouse gases.

3.  I regard the de-growth movement as essential and crucial toward addressing both climate and the biodiversity crisis.

4.  Ecological design should be treated as a top level educational priority in K-12 schools, colleges and universities, having the same status as reading, writing and arithmetic.  All campuses should embody ecological design principles into their grounds and buildings, and students should spend some of their week gardening on campus as part of their curriculum.

5.  Every town and city should adopt permaculture practice as a civic priority, including permaculture education and land access for everyone.  Every city and town should have multiple community food forests both under public and private community ownership, with private food forests generally held in community land trust.

6. Every polity, everywhere, should begin implementing programs designed to phase out automobile dependency and use while encouraging the use of bicycles, pedestrianism and very lightweight, very small electric vehicles.

7. Every polity, everywhere, should mandate that any new buildings make optimal use of passive solar heating where this is a viable option.

8. Every polity, everywhere, should mandate that any new buildings make optimal use of passive cooling where this is viable and
necessary.

9. Land use regulations should be changed to allow for a lot more mixed use, thus allowing employment, shopping, etc., to be in walking and bicycling distance from home.

10. Building codes should be modified to allow for lower cost and "green" alternative housing, while also ensuring the safety of occupants.

11. Every village, town, city and county should implement programs meant to support and encourage food relocalization.

12. As automobiles are being phased out, car-coops should become widely available so that folks can opt out of personal car ownership while still having access to automobile use on occasion, so folks can get out of town for bit and go camping, fishing, or whatever.

13. Every town and city should have at least one physical indoor space where folks who care about and are working on these sorts of things can gather and informally (and formally) chat or discuss how we might transform our society so that we preserve a high quality of life for everyone while we follow a path of voluntary energy descent and ecologically sensitive economic and social practices.

I could go on, but that's enough of a start for now.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 01:13:19 PM by JRM »
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline Cam

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Re: Climate
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2020, 11:27:34 AM »

1.  I see anthropogenic climate disruption as probably the central contextualizing social and political topic and issue of our time in history.  A contextualizing topic or issue is one which provides context for many other topics and issues.  So, for example, we cannot honestly and informedly discuss economics or general politics topics and issues without including climate in that discussion. To do otherwise is like sweeping an elephant under a rug.


To me climate change and resource depletion are going to be the two factors causing us trouble for the next while. They both seem to be elephants in the room that few want to talk about, but at least climate change is being brought to the forefront more often now.

Quote

6. Every polity, everywhere, should begin implementing programs designed to phase out automobile dependency and use while encouraging the use of bicycles, pedestrianism and very lightweight, very small electric vehicles.


I intend to be a part of this one. We're currently having bike shortages here in Canada because, well, so many people are out buying bikes. They might just be doing it for recreation as bikes are mostly seen as toys here in Canada, but I'm sure as many people experience financial crunches they will find areas of the budget to cut fat off of. In my hometown specifically we're becoming more bike-friendly, which is the beginning of a feedback loop (hopefully). More people out biking because it's more pleasant, then more people advocating for better cycling accommodations and so on.

Once I get good enough at welding I'm gonna try my hand at making some little cargo bikes. I think once people discover that you don't NEED a 2 ton hunk of metal to get your groceries with, they'll run errands more on bikes. That, along with more bike friendly cities, makes me look forward to some changes in how people get around. I intend to be a part of these changes for sure.

And just about every other point you made has me nodding in agreement.

Offline JRM

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Re: Climate
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2020, 11:40:26 AM »
Hi Cam -

I started this thread because RE wanted me to spend some of my time in the Diner talking abut "collapse" topics, of which climate is one.  He was growing weary of having politics discussions overwhelm collapse discussions.

I see all of these things as interrelated. But I also see politics as inevitable and everywhere, as for me "politics" is about "worldmaking," (which I got from the philosopher Gabriel Rockhill), and we're all actually involved in worldmaking all the time, whether we are doing so deliberately and consciously or not.  (I think we should do it deliberately and consciously, as the outcome will be better if we do.)

Anyway, I agree entirely with your adding resource depletion into the mix. Climate disruption and resource depletion are deeply intertwined, and most of the best responses to one (and to collapse) are also our best responses to the other/s.
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline Eddie

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Re: Climate
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2020, 12:48:37 PM »
I thought climate was the horseman of the apocalypse that would take us down, but I was basing that on bad intel.......the bottom is  that there is some line that we might or might not have already crossed (nobody knows if we've crossed it, nobody, but it's agreed we're close)...and assuming that line has been crossed, there are some long term consequences coming that all the permaculture in the world won't fix.

And....I wasn't  figuring in a global pandemic, which I think will do more than anything to drive collapse for the next several months or even years.

But climate change  won't play out on the timeline suggested by the more hysterical voices.....it will play out over a few hundred years. The idea that we will soon experience  really widespread famine (particularly in the developed world) is an idea that has no real evidence to support it.

Like all political hot potatoes these days , there are radical groups using fear tactics and spewing  misinformation in order to advocate for what they see as a "just cause".

Once again, I say that the ends don't justify the means, if the means are unethical and based on a false narrative and emotional mob behavior. I go off on that a lot, but there is reason to do that.

New climate info out this last couple of months since I've written anything about it....... I need to see what is new to assimilate.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2020, 12:52:03 PM by Eddie »
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Offline JRM

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Re: Climate
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2020, 01:14:46 PM »
Passing note: I added an important addendum to my item 1. It is in green.
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline JRM

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Re: Climate
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2020, 01:27:18 PM »
14.  Policies should be adopted by cities, towns and/or states which effectively encourage the re-emergence of what has traditionally been called "the corner store" -- or widely distributed shops and stores, especially those offering everyday purchase type items like food. (One should not have to drive miles to purchase food, and walking and bicycling should be encouraged in this way as automobile dependency and use are phased out.
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline John of Wallan

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Re: Climate
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2020, 10:15:05 PM »
I'm just going to lay out some of my perspective on various climate issues and topics here.  This is not an essay, but rather a numbered series of comments as they occur to me.

1.  I see anthropogenic climate disruption as probably the central contextualizing social and political topic and issue of our time in history.  A contextualizing topic or issue is one which provides context for many other topics and issues.  So, for example, we cannot honestly and informedly discuss economics or general politics topics and issues without including climate in that discussion. To do otherwise is like sweeping an elephant under a rug. Edit: After some reflection, I would now say that the climate crisis is one of several related major top contextualizing issues of our time. Resource depletion is another major one which is just as important, as is the global biodiversity crisis. These three are deeply intertwined.


2.  Some regard our climate situation as "too late" -- and propose that there is little or nothing we can -- or should try -- to do to mitigate further harm to our climate system.  This is not my take.  There is much uncertainty about how anthropogenic climate disruption will unfold in the future. It may be that a set of self-reinforcing positive feedback loops have already been set in which may render our efforts rather futile, but I think the right thing to do is to radically reduce anthropogenic greenhouse gases even thought it is possible that we've already fucked things up this bad already.   It is possible that if we both reduce GHG dramatically and employ the various known, safe and natural means of drawing down carbon out of the atmosphere (e.g., through forest and farming practices), we may end up with an inhabitable Earth and a much lowered loss of biodiversity.  But, of course, many other things must be done to protect and preserve biodiversity which have little or nothing directly to do with greenhouse gases.



I agree with your ideas.
I fear that we are too late for a lot of organisms, particularly large vertibrates. I will not be doing nothing. I will be trying to reduce impacts. I have no faith in governments or much of my local humanity doing the same. We are too adicted to fosil fuels and feeling superior to care about doing anything which will be uncomfortable.

I thought climate was the horseman of the apocalypse that would take us down, but I was basing that on bad intel.......the bottom is  that there is some line that we might or might not have already crossed (nobody knows if we've crossed it, nobody, but it's agreed we're close)...and assuming that line has been crossed, there are some long term consequences coming that all the permaculture in the world won't fix.

And....I wasn't  figuring in a global pandemic, which I think will do more than anything to drive collapse for the next several months or even years.

But climate change  won't play out on the timeline suggested by the more hysterical voices.....it will play out over a few hundred years. The idea that we will soon experience  really widespread famine (particularly in the developed world) is an idea that has no real evidence to support it....

L

Hmmm. I must be one of these hysterical voices.
Its playing out now mate.
We who are well educated and live in the first world will be some of the last hit, but it will take decades not centuries.
Every bit of evidence I have seen shows us in population overshoot and climate change is reducing carying capacity dramatically. That which grows slowly can reduce quickly... A seneca cliff. I only need a few days without water or a few weeks without food to be a statistic. First world food supply is more fragile than you think.

JOW

Offline Surly1

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Re: Climate
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2020, 03:37:16 AM »
I thought climate was the horseman of the apocalypse that would take us down, but I was basing that on bad intel.......the bottom is  that there is some line that we might or might not have already crossed (nobody knows if we've crossed it, nobody, but it's agreed we're close)...and assuming that line has been crossed, there are some long term consequences coming that all the permaculture in the world won't fix.

And....I wasn't  figuring in a global pandemic, which I think will do more than anything to drive collapse for the next several months or even years.

But climate change  won't play out on the timeline suggested by the more hysterical voices.....it will play out over a few hundred years. The idea that we will soon experience  really widespread famine (particularly in the developed world) is an idea that has no real evidence to support it.

Like all political hot potatoes these days , there are radical groups using fear tactics and spewing  misinformation in order to advocate for what they see as a "just cause".

Once again, I say that the ends don't justify the means, if the means are unethical and based on a false narrative and emotional mob behavior. I go off on that a lot, but there is reason to do that.

New climate info out this last couple of months since I've written anything about it....... I need to see what is new to assimilate.

I find it baffling, and too voluminous to assimilate if you have ANYTHING else in life to do. And while the Guy McPherson hospice types strike me like followers of Marshall Applewhite... from what I can discern we don't have anything like several hundred years. Siberia hit 100F this past week. The net effects may jump right on our children.

One of the greatest problems we have in grappling with climate issues is the we do addition and subtraction well enough, but don't understand exponential functions, and climate effects seem to be manifesting much more quickly than predicted. And multiplying.
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Online Phil Rumpole

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Re: Climate
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2020, 03:47:25 AM »
People will not even switch off their engine of the big SUV that never leaves bitumen,  sitting in a traffic jam or waiting outside a shop where they ordered burgers or pizzas.

The entire right wing of politics and their voters rejects any limit to growth or climate change as a valid concept. They say C02 is plant food, so good for the earth. Half these people insist it's getting colder and going to freeze from a grand solar minimum. I think reading tealeaves must be a more exact science than predicting a pattern in something burning like the sun.

I do believe that ice core and tree ring data shows the earth spends more time frozen and the interglacial periods are very regular. That has to be caused by gravitational forces acting on the solar system and earth's orbit. I'm no expert, just my guess there. We are in fact past due to start an ice age, like the neglectful driver 500 miles past an oil change interval. I think that has spared us some effect of our last 100 years burn baby burn, growth at all cost paradigm.

See the latest Michael Moore film on utube free. It puts the lie to the myth of renewables on a grand scale. The wind and solar farms failed. Burning biomass seemed wrong when I heard about it a decade ago, I've been vindicated, it's deforestation in the name of green energy.

When all the Greta thunberg hoohaa broke out last year and world govts got behind her, it was fishy. Sure enough, the solutions touted, focussing on cows not cars were a joke.

I thought, if they're serious they will drastically cut down regular air travel for holidays, business, and govt entourage's of diplomats etc. They will drastically cut global container shipping and fast parcel freight, where vans don't need to be even 1/4 full to go deliver your eBay or Amazon Chinese order. I thought if they were serious they would make people work from home instead of wasting so much energy in commuting everyone.

It turned out all that happened by pure unintended consequence coincidence, about a year later.

No, they're not going to pay everyone trump checks or whatever industry bailout they're getting if they're lucky.

Unless someone can tell me how long helicopter money / ubi would go on without hyperinflation and why they would keep the current number of eaters on it indefinitely.

It doesn't matter if you cut a cities pollution by 50%, it doesn't reduce anything in the long run if the city is growing. In fact it's worse than that, because the more trees cut down for the city to expand the less photosynthesis available to counter its emissions.

Our debt based currency system requires constant exponential growth to not collapse. The money masters will not give that up.





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