AuthorTopic: Ships in Horrible Storms  (Read 4546 times)

Offline Phil Rumpole

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Re: Ships in Horrible Storms
« Reply #90 on: October 26, 2020, 02:07:36 PM »
If we can conclude that no socialism or Nazism was involved in those experiments and the only thing that is required is ideological posession, then ideological posession has nothing to do with rationalistic nihilism. You define ideological posession as only social pressure, authority and a power structure. These are as old as any herd species and in particular humans.

Rationalist ideologies and nihilist ideologies (they are two separate kinds) are obviously sub-species of ideologies in general. Anything can be considered an ideology. If you read a book by your favorite author, then start to view every aspect of the world through that author's lens, you have been possessed by an ideology. It happens to us all the time in modern society. It is when you cede your personal responsibility for critical thinking to a broad set of ideas.

Marxism is a rationalist ideology. Do you deny that? This ideology was undeniably what drove the Russian revolution and various other revolutions of the 20th century (Mao, Pol Pot, etc.). The possession of Soviet citizens, etc. by this ideology is what allowed the State to maintain their brutal policies over long periods of time.

National Socialism can also be considered a rationalist ideology, however it is also a good example of the fine line between rationalism and nihilism. Hitler wanted to create an ethno-nationalist, technocratic new world order, but when it became clear that was not happening, he simply wanted everything and everyone (including himself and his family) to be destroyed. It is the ultimate rejection of being itself.

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The peace deals you mentioned as an extention of moving embassy to Jerusalem and outraging the Arabs were gunboat diplomacy.

This is what I would call ideological possession. You are so enamored with the anti-Trump and, presumably, anti-Zionist ideas that, no matter what deals are struck and how many lives are saved in the region as a result, you will find a reason to call it a bad thing. If it comes from Trump and/or benefits Israel in any way, then it must be bad. You have ceded your critical thinking on this issue to the ideology.

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Logical conclusions from testing your theory are not bad faith, but if its a better explanation for you than Nietzsche being fallible, I will abide and stop kicking your sacred cow.

Of course Nietzsche was fallible, and there are quite a few arguments he made that I believe were off the mark. But the 20th century atrocities as a result of rationalist and nihilist ideologies rising up in the wake of the rejection of Western Christian values (the "death of God") was one that he got absolutely right, and that is evident to anyone who reads him critically.
We are giving your theory a fair test.

Europe and mankind had always been at war. The death of God made no difference to that. WW1 was not ideological, it was a powder keg of territorial dispute just needing a match. Even the Serb who shot Franz Ferdinand was not of any Nazi or Marxist ideology.

Hitler came to power because of hardship, hunger and hyperinflation. The same factors with the Soviet revolution. Both in the 20thC. Onerous taxation and opression leading to revolt was not new to the 20thC. The only things new were the level of population and technology to kill.

The war in the Pacific involved no Nazis or Soviets. So what ideology was at play there?

What ideology has kept the US busy fulfilling Nietzsche's nightmare not only in the 20th but we'll into the 21st C?



I asked twice why you mentioned Marxism in response to the question: "what ideology posessed the people involved in the American experiments specifically designed to explain the action of the nazi little cogs in the machine".

Now I ask again: why do you keep speaking of Marxism in response, unless you believe America is Marxist?

I do not suffer from any anti trump ideological posession. Pro trump posession may have driven you to think a mugging where the victim gives over his wallet and keeps his life if saving lives, if trump is the one giving the green light to the mugger. That's known as gunboat diplomacy. Zionism is an anihilist ideology.

  Freedumb & Demockracy are irrational ideologies. John the Revelator warned of the dire consequences from Patmos.
Nothing could be more irrational than this fight to keep BLM off of the fuselage and  LGBTQ 🌈 Pride flag off the tail of the B52.


 


« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 02:10:24 PM by Phil Rumpole »
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Offline Phil Rumpole

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Re: Ships in Horrible Storms
« Reply #91 on: October 26, 2020, 02:41:31 PM »
I used to identify with fundamentalist Christianity and that was ideological possession. I don't anymore, but it's always a risk that whatever system of religious thinking I get into could be another form of ideological possession. As a general rule, if the ideas you are enthralled with allow you to blame others for your problems or the world's problems, and abdicate you of personal responsibility, then it's an ideology which has possessed you.

My view right now is that all ancient, long-lasting religious traditions have evolved to guard against this ever-repeating phenomenon. It is what the Christian tradition is concerned with when it points to "demonic possession". It is also what the pagan traditions thought of as being possessed by the spirits of various gods.

You're not a Fundamentalist Christian anymore?  You no longer believe the Bible is literal truth?

RE

No. It is filled with Truths, but not when read literally.

I've been thinking all along that you have shifted the fixation from Christianity to reactionary right wing politics. Saying Christians mean only ideological posession by demonic possession really seals that.

There is no evidence religious ideology is any less genocidal than what you consider rationalist and nihilist. Every leap in technology has steadily facilitated it with greater efficiency throughout human history, there is no demarcation in the 1800s. You used to argue that men of faith in fact brought about science and invention. 
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 02:53:05 PM by Phil Rumpole »
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Offline RE

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Re: Ships in Horrible Storms
« Reply #92 on: October 26, 2020, 03:26:47 PM »

You're not a Fundamentalist Christian anymore?  You no longer believe the Bible is literal truth?

RE

No. It is filled with Truths, but not when read literally.
[/quote]

So when did you accept this New Truth?  What is still literal truth and what is not?  Was there a real Adam & Eve who spawned the human race?  How long ago did they live?  Did all creatures on Earth get killed in a flood?  Were they all packed on 1 boat to be Saved by Noah?  Did Mary have a Virgin Birth?

You can go into about any text and CHOOSE what you want to believe, but that doesn't make it true.  You also CHOOSE to believe many things written by others, Jordan Peterson and Karl Jung for example.  But you DISMISS about everything Karl Marx wrote as False.

So generally, your ideology is one of convenience.  Once Upon a Time when you were Admin at TAE, you believed in Peak Oil and oncoming Collapse of Industrial Civilization.  Then you repudiated all of it you wrote here and asked me to delete it all, which I refused to do.

So what do you believe NOW?  Is Collapse real and demonstrably in progress or not?

RE
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Online Ashvin

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Re: Ships in Horrible Storms
« Reply #93 on: October 26, 2020, 06:06:26 PM »
Quote

You're not a Fundamentalist Christian anymore?  You no longer believe the Bible is literal truth?

RE

No. It is filled with Truths, but not when read literally.

So when did you accept this New Truth?  What is still literal truth and what is not?  Was there a real Adam & Eve who spawned the human race?  How long ago did they live?  Did all creatures on Earth get killed in a flood?  Were they all packed on 1 boat to be Saved by Noah?  Did Mary have a Virgin Birth?

You can go into about any text and CHOOSE what you want to believe, but that doesn't make it true.  You also CHOOSE to believe many things written by others, Jordan Peterson and Karl Jung for example.  But you DISMISS about everything Karl Marx wrote as False.

So generally, your ideology is one of convenience.  Once Upon a Time when you were Admin at TAE, you believed in Peak Oil and oncoming Collapse of Industrial Civilization.  Then you repudiated all of it you wrote here and asked me to delete it all, which I refused to do.


My ideas evolve as I am exposed to more deep thinkers, yes. Carl Jung did a massive comparative study of nearly all ancient religious systems of thought, up to and including astrology and alchemy, and that is fundamentally how he discovered (or at least verified) the existence of the collective unconscious or "objective psyche", which has been supported by more recent studies in anthropology, evolutionary psychology and neuroscience.

He viewed scripture as mythologically (or "mytho-poetically"), i.e. symbolically, describing encounters between the personal ego and the transpersonal unconscious, the latter consisting of evolved archetypal patterns (instantiated in biology and culture) which can also be thought of as autonomous psychic contents or sub-personalities which are alive, i.e. what the ancients called gods and spirits. It's important to keep in mind, though, that all of these terms are abstract human representations of an underlying reality which is fundamentally ineffable, as all major ancient religious traditions hold as well. Ineffable is not the same as unknowable, though, and we experience this reality in all aspects of our lives and human culture.

Is it possible he got some key aspects of this "objective psyche" wrong? Yes, of course. I did not stop my considerations of it with him, and I see the same ideas hinted at (or sometimes explicitly stated) in many other visionary thinkers as well, from both the East and the West.

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So what do you believe NOW?  Is Collapse real and demonstrably in progress or not?

RE

You have to provide some kind of precise definition of "Collapse" here. I could ask five people on this forum what it means and get five different answers with very substantive differences.

In general, I don't think we can predict any large-scale outcomes of complex system dynamics in the next 50 years, as the margins of error get increasingly larger the farther we go out. I think this is also part of why the great religious traditions focus on individual transformation as the only reliable means of "changing the world". This seems so ludicrous to us know because we are so heavily steeped in the culture of philosophical materialism/rationalism.

Online Ashvin

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Re: Ships in Horrible Storms
« Reply #94 on: October 26, 2020, 06:33:39 PM »
We are giving your theory a fair test.

Europe and mankind had always been at war. The death of God made no difference to that. WW1 was not ideological, it was a powder keg of territorial dispute just needing a match. Even the Serb who shot Franz Ferdinand was not of any Nazi or Marxist ideology.

Hitler came to power because of hardship, hunger and hyperinflation. The same factors with the Soviet revolution. Both in the 20thC. Onerous taxation and opression leading to revolt was not new to the 20thC. The only things new were the level of population and technology to kill.

The war in the Pacific involved no Nazis or Soviets. So what ideology was at play there?

What ideology has kept the US busy fulfilling Nietzsche's nightmare not only in the 20th but we'll into the 21st C?

This has been explained over and over again to you. The fact that you still think of the entire 20th century in these terms means rationalism is alive and well.

Dostoevsky said, "without God, everything is permitted". Human beings have many deep-seated motivations which cannot be reduced to just material needs. Rationalism a priori excludes all of that from consideration, while materialism claims everything about the human being, including consciousness, can be reduced to mindless interactions between matter in space-time.

How could the exclusion of spiritual drives and values instantiated in our biology NOT effect the dynamics of modern human cultures and politics at a large scale? That is the real question.

Quote
I asked twice why you mentioned Marxism in response to the question: "what ideology posessed the people involved in the American experiments specifically designed to explain the action of the nazi little cogs in the machine".

Now I ask again: why do you keep speaking of Marxism in response, unless you believe America is Marxist?

Marxism is the rationalist ideology par excellence. You can see this clearly in any good account of the Soviet history, such as the Gulag Archipelago. He also shows how the individual moral failures of Soviet citizens made the brutalities of the Soviet state possible. Those social psyche experiments only lend support to his insights.

Quote
I do not suffer from any anti trump ideological posession. Pro trump posession may have driven you to think a mugging where the victim gives over his wallet and keeps his life if saving lives, if trump is the one giving the green light to the mugger. That's known as gunboat diplomacy. Zionism is an anihilist ideology.

Framing it in that way is clear evidence of ideological possession. Never mind the fact that millions of people in that region can now go to bed at night feeling a little more secure. Phil says this is bad for you and you should stay at arms with Israel until HIS idea of what is "right" comes to fruition.

 
Quote
Freedumb & Demockracy are irrational ideologies. John the Revelator warned of the dire consequences from Patmos.
Nothing could be more irrational than this fight to keep BLM off of the fuselage and  LGBTQ 🌈 Pride flag off the tail of the B52.

You mean to keep BLM and Antifa from getting in people's faces on the streets or in restaurants while they are enjoying a meal, asking them the modern leftist equivalent of "Heil Hitler!" to figure out where their "allegiances" lie and whether they are enemies to the "cause"? I can't wait to hear what excuse you serve up to downplay this one.

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/blm-invades-affluent-portland-suburb-demand-allegiance-shoppers-and-diners
"One of the Moms United for Black Lives carried a bullhorn and yelled at one man who was walking by: “Excuse me, Sir? Are you anti-racists? Can I get a Black Lives Matter?” He kept walking but it sounded like he answered, “Yes.”

She asked someone else, “How ’bout you?! Do Black Lives Matter?”

She then turned her sights on a woman sitting alone at a restaurant table on the corner.

The protesters surrounded the woman and mocked her as she recorded them with her phone. One of them said, “Damn! She’s super anxious!”

They asked her her name, and added, “Does your kid go to LO (Lake Osweg0) High? Do your kids go to LO High? Do they go to LO High?”

Offline Phil Rumpole

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Re: Ships in Horrible Storms
« Reply #95 on: October 26, 2020, 07:54:27 PM »
We are giving your theory a fair test.

Europe and mankind had always been at war. The death of God made no difference to that. WW1 was not ideological, it was a powder keg of territorial dispute just needing a match. Even the Serb who shot Franz Ferdinand was not of any Nazi or Marxist ideology.

Hitler came to power because of hardship, hunger and hyperinflation. The same factors with the Soviet revolution. Both in the 20thC. Onerous taxation and opression leading to revolt was not new to the 20thC. The only things new were the level of population and technology to kill.

The war in the Pacific involved no Nazis or Soviets. So what ideology was at play there?

What ideology has kept the US busy fulfilling Nietzsche's nightmare not only in the 20th but we'll into the 21st C?

This has been explained over and over again to you. The fact that you still think of the entire 20th century in these terms means rationalism is alive and well.

Dostoevsky said, "without God, everything is permitted". Human beings have many deep-seated motivations which cannot be reduced to just material needs. Rationalism a priori excludes all of that from consideration, while materialism claims everything about the human being, including consciousness, can be reduced to mindless interactions between matter in space-time.

How could the exclusion of spiritual drives and values instantiated in our biology NOT effect the dynamics of modern human cultures and politics at a large scale? That is the real question.

Quote
I asked twice why you mentioned Marxism in response to the question: "what ideology posessed the people involved in the American experiments specifically designed to explain the action of the nazi little cogs in the machine".

Now I ask again: why do you keep speaking of Marxism in response, unless you believe America is Marxist?

Marxism is the rationalist ideology par excellence. You can see this clearly in any good account of the Soviet history, such as the Gulag Archipelago. He also shows how the individual moral failures of Soviet citizens made the brutalities of the Soviet state possible. Those social psyche experiments only lend support to his insights.

Quote
I do not suffer from any anti trump ideological posession. Pro trump posession may have driven you to think a mugging where the victim gives over his wallet and keeps his life if saving lives, if trump is the one giving the green light to the mugger. That's known as gunboat diplomacy. Zionism is an anihilist ideology.

Framing it in that way is clear evidence of ideological possession. Never mind the fact that millions of people in that region can now go to bed at night feeling a little more secure. Phil says this is bad for you and you should stay at arms with Israel until HIS idea of what is "right" comes to fruition.

 
Quote
Freedumb & Demockracy are irrational ideologies. John the Revelator warned of the dire consequences from Patmos.
Nothing could be more irrational than this fight to keep BLM off of the fuselage and  LGBTQ 🌈 Pride flag off the tail of the B52.

You mean to keep BLM and Antifa from getting in people's faces on the streets or in restaurants while they are enjoying a meal, asking them the modern leftist equivalent of "Heil Hitler!" to figure out where their "allegiances" lie and whether they are enemies to the "cause"? I can't wait to hear what excuse you serve up to downplay this one.

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/blm-invades-affluent-portland-suburb-demand-allegiance-shoppers-and-diners
"One of the Moms United for Black Lives carried a bullhorn and yelled at one man who was walking by: “Excuse me, Sir? Are you anti-racists? Can I get a Black Lives Matter?” He kept walking but it sounded like he answered, “Yes.”

She asked someone else, “How ’bout you?! Do Black Lives Matter?”

She then turned her sights on a woman sitting alone at a restaurant table on the corner.

The protesters surrounded the woman and mocked her as she recorded them with her phone. One of them said, “Damn! She’s super anxious!”

They asked her her name, and added, “Does your kid go to LO (Lake Osweg0) High? Do your kids go to LO High? Do they go to LO High?”


I've given numerous reasons the radical theory to fit reality to Nietzsche just doesn't work, moving into intangible nonspecifics doesn't sway me.

The experiments conducted in the US involved participants saying their prayers at night in a Christian country, by scientists you used to claim were not incompatible with religion. This did not happen in bible banning USSR. They were not denied God, yet they were willing to torture and kill when told to do so, proving atheist ideology has no monopoly on atrocity.

This is one reason why Nietzsche wrote Beyond Good and Evil, to tell you american are not immune to everything you ascribe to only communists.

Speaking of the Bible and Christianity, if demonic possession only meant ideological posession, why did Jesus ask their name and cast them out, why isn't Noam Chomsky or Tomi Lahren sent to exorcise them with debate instead of priests with crosses, holy water and incense? Because Nietzsche spoke of personal priorities and motivations as 'demons' and reality must conform to him?

Rationalism doesn't deny spiritual urges. It simply comes to conclusions such as the universe, earth and life taking billions of years to create, which was considered heresy to say instead of 7 days at one point. If the greater the body of knowledge grows, the greater the gaping god shaped gap grows, nobody is prevented from explaining it with a creator.  The inquisitors and Salem Puritans witch-hunt  are examples of allowing for God doing nothing at all to prevent the worst atrocity.

 It does not diminish anyone's spirituality to be rational which is always optional, unless they are all study and no practice.

If you're familiar with the prominent late 19th philosophers, you should apply Soren Kierkegaard; "when you label me you negate me". I already said from the beginning, unprompted,  that I don't approve of every BLM members action such as stopping traffic or harrassing people going about their business. Yet you continually put me in this preconceived box that would give no quarter, like yourself.

If anything fulphils Dostoevsky 'without god anything is permitted', it's completely unequal treaties because might makes right and being as one-eyed as a penis.




 
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 08:17:46 PM by Phil Rumpole »
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Online Ashvin

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Re: Ships in Horrible Storms
« Reply #96 on: October 26, 2020, 08:33:15 PM »
Your radical theory makes assumptions. I have challenged those. You have not answered them.

For the 5th time, the experiments conducted in the US involved people saying their prayers at night in a Christian country. By scientists you used to claim were not incompatible with religion.

 This did not happen in bible banning USSR. They were not denied God.

What "radical theory"? That ideology was the driving factor behind the Communist and Nazi atrocities? Please cite a non-Marxist or non-Nazi who disagrees and I will consider it.

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This is one reason why Nietzsche wrote beyond good and evil, to tell you american are not immune to everything you ascribe to only communists, such as the Viet Cong who were still Bhuddist.

Who said Americans are immune to ideological possession? If anything I have been saying the exact opposite - every human being is susceptible to it and, in reality, experiences it. We see it happening in American right now at both extremes, but you are unwilling to entertain the possibility that it might be happening on the left political extreme (which has completed shoved out the "moderates").

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Speaking of the Bible and Christianity, if demonic possession only meant ideological posession, why did Jesus ask their name and cast them out, why isn't Noam Chomsky or Tomi Lahren sent to exorcise them with debate instead of priests with crosses, holy water and incense? Because Nietzsche spoke of personal priorities and mitivations as demons and reality must conform to him.

These are symbolic representations, in the following sense: "an artistic and poetic movement or style using symbolic images and indirect suggestion to express mystical ideas, emotions, and states of mind"

That was Dostoevsky's (and Jung's) whole point - no amount of rational argument will convince an ideologue to abandon their "cause", or stop worshipping their idols. They will always find reasons to "gain their point". Only spiritual guidance, i.e. deep introspection into our unconscious complexes, bringing them into the light of consciousness, can redeem us, i.e. repent and be baptized in Christ. Christ is the symbol of this individuating process. Rationalism is quite literally the antithesis of this symbol or the anti-Christ.

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20th C rationalism doesn't deny spiritual urges. It simply comes to conclusions such as the universe and earth and life taking billions of years to create, which was considered heresy to say instead of 7 days at one point. The inquisitors and Salem Puritans witch-hunt  are examples of allowing for God doing nothing at all to prevent the worst atrocity.

 It does not diminish anyone's spirituality to be rational which is always optional, unless they are all study and no practice.

Of course it does. I already defined philosophical rationalism for you. It is NOT simply being rational or using your intellect, it is believing reality can only be explained in terms of reasoned out concepts rather than inner experience.

Quote
If you're familiar with the prominent late 19th philosophers, you should apply Soren Kierkegaard; "when you label me you negate me".

Kierkegaard was very similar to Dostoevsky in his existential thinking, and existential philosophy is diametrically opposed to rationalism. They were both huge influences on Nietzsche and Jung. Also thinkers like Rudolf Steiner, who wrote, Friedrich Nietzsche, Fighter for Freedom (freedom of the "soul").

The quote you mention is a perfect example of what rationalism tells us to do - only consider what we can label with our cognitive intellectual categories. I suspect you feel the need to defend rationalism only because it is undeniably linked with Marxism and you associate anyone who attacks Marxist ideology with alt-right, pro-Trump, pro-American patriot, or whatever cognitive categories you label everything on the "other side" with.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11153-019-09732-z
"While there has been considerable interest in the writings of Søren Kierkegaard and Fyodor Dostoevsky, both of whom are considered seminal existential thinkers, relatively little has been said about similarities in their thought. In this paper, I propose to read their philosophical and literary works together as texts that offer an elaborate model of an existential religious transformation. Both Kierkegaard and Dostoevsky sketch a path leading from the inauthentic, internally fragmented and egotistic self to the authentically Christian, humble and loving individual."

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I already said from the beginning, unprompted,  that I don't approve of every BLM members action such as stopping traffic or harrassing people going about their business. Yet you continually put me in this preconceived box that would give no quarter, like yourself.

You approve of their ideology, maybe unconsciously. That is why you either ignore or downplay everything they do, hence your equally unprompted comment, "Nothing could be more irrational than this fight to keep BLM off of the fuselage".
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 08:37:24 PM by Ashvin »

Online Ashvin

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Re: Ships in Horrible Storms
« Reply #97 on: October 26, 2020, 08:44:02 PM »
Quote
The experiments conducted in the US involved participants saying their prayers at night in a Christian country, by scientists you used to claim were not incompatible with religion. This did not happen in bible banning USSR. They were not denied God, yet they were willing to torture and kill when told to do so, proving atheist ideology has no monopoly on atrocity.

This just further supports Nietzsche's point about the "death of God" in the West (which was the region he was obviously concerned with), which you keep denying for who knows what reason. Maybe because Nietzsche was such a devastating critic of socialist ideology, you want so desperately to prove him wrong.

Offline Phil Rumpole

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Re: Ships in Horrible Storms
« Reply #98 on: October 26, 2020, 09:38:22 PM »
 
Stop reducing yourself to a polarity simpleton and tuning out everything I say critical of the left, communism, Marxism to negate me by labelling me. My  stance is u are the one helping the Marxist  aim of destabilization and defeat by ensuring a house divided can not stand. I simply enjoy the decline, call me an anarchist instead.

The evidence of your eyes and ears: churches, mosques, temples, synagogues and an ever expanding industry of self help books full of that dangerous new age and eastern philosophy you warned against are spirituality in action. Yes Hitler and Stalin burnt them all, but they're gone and we still have what you say is rationalism, not throttling all transcendent soul urge.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 09:42:06 PM by Phil Rumpole »
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Offline Phil Rumpole

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Re: Ships in Horrible Storms
« Reply #99 on: October 26, 2020, 09:51:21 PM »
May I ask what the gospels or modern day exorcists are symbolising by casting out demons?

Your theory was the major wars of the 20th C were caused by nihilist and rationalist ideology, and that these cause greater atrocity and casualties.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 10:01:48 PM by Phil Rumpole »
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Re: Ships in Horrible Storms
« Reply #100 on: October 27, 2020, 01:50:49 AM »
Your theory was the major wars of the 20th C were caused by nihilist and rationalist ideology, and that these cause greater atrocity and casualties.

Yes, the ideas here are:

1- Rationalism & Nihilism are the cause of Wars.

2- Wars today are more destructive because they are driven by Rationalism & Nihilism.

The problem is neither of these suppositions is true despite what Nietze might have thought before descending into madness.  The main causes of WW1 & WW2 was to gain control over the thermodynamic supplies of fossil fuels.  Rationalism & Nihilism are not the CAUSE of all this mayhem, they are an effect of it.  Nietze didn't "predict" these outcomes, he just was extrapolating on what was occuring in his own time.  He was to a large extent correct,but that doesn't make his reasoning correct.  WW1 & WW@ were fought over the Energy resource.  18th & 19th century wars were fought over the Food resource.

RE
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Re: Ships in Horrible Storms
« Reply #101 on: October 27, 2020, 09:03:48 AM »
Your theory was the major wars of the 20th C were caused by nihilist and rationalist ideology, and that these cause greater atrocity and casualties.

Yes, the ideas here are:

1- Rationalism & Nihilism are the cause of Wars.

2- Wars today are more destructive because they are driven by Rationalism & Nihilism.

The problem is neither of these suppositions is true despite what Nietze might have thought before descending into madness.  The main causes of WW1 & WW2 was to gain control over the thermodynamic supplies of fossil fuels.  Rationalism & Nihilism are not the CAUSE of all this mayhem, they are an effect of it.  Nietze didn't "predict" these outcomes, he just was extrapolating on what was occuring in his own time.  He was to a large extent correct,but that doesn't make his reasoning correct.  WW1 & WW@ were fought over the Energy resource.  18th & 19th century wars were fought over the Food resource.

RE

The fact that the Renaissance, Reformation, Scientific Revolution, etc. elevated Reason and Rationality to an exalted status, to the exclusion of the "spirit" or "soul", is not even debatable. Everyone, including the empiricists and rationalists, admit that this is what happened. Poets like John Milton and Shakespeare (two of the best in the English language) wrote about the negative effects of this transition extensively. If anyone was truly ahead of their times, it was people like them.

You also have philosophers like Immanuel Kant, who wrote A Critique of Pure Reason, and influenced generations of idealist philosophers which came after him. Then you have the era of the Romantic poets, such as William Blake, Coleridge, Wordsworth, Emerson etc., who were absolutely responding to the rationalist domination of their times. So no, we do not need Nietzsche to see this rationalist specter haunting the West well before his time. He and a few others were good at diagnosing exactly where it would lead, though.

For Phil, or anyone else who thinks WWII was primarily a manifestation of material hardships and NOT ideology, please explain WHY the Germans decided to ramp up their extermination campaigns as they were losing the war, taking resources from the war effort to the effort of murdering people en masse before the allies got there. Explain WHY Hitler wanted to see the entire German nation and people consumed by fire at the end, and WHY he and Eva Braun killed their children and themselves in a bunker while the German cities burned. If you cannot see that these behaviors are the result of ideological possession, then I don't know how else to explain it to you.

https://www.orwell.ru/people/blake/wb_en#:~:text=British%20poet%2C%20painter%2C%20visionary%20mystic%2C%20and%20engraver%2C%20who,and%20considered%20Newtonian%20science%20to%20be%20superstitious%20nonsense.
"British poet, painter, visionary mystic, and engraver, who illustrated and printed his own books. Blake proclaimed the supremacy of the imagination over the rationalism and materialism of the 18th-century. He joined for a time the Swedenborgian Church of the New Jerusalem in London and considered Newtonian science to be superstitious nonsense. Misunderstanding shadowed his career as a writer and artist and it was left to later generations to recognize his importance."

"To see a world in a grain of sand
And heaven in a wild flower
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand
And eternity in an hour."
(from ‘Auguries of Innocence’)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 09:06:02 AM by Ashvin »

Online Ashvin

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Re: Ships in Horrible Storms
« Reply #102 on: October 27, 2020, 09:11:49 AM »
May I ask what the gospels or modern day exorcists are symbolising by casting out demons?

Your theory was the major wars of the 20th C were caused by nihilist and rationalist ideology, and that these cause greater atrocity and casualties.

Exorcism symbolizes the act of confronting your demons and dispelling them, which is why we still use that same language when talking about people confronting their psychological states, character flaws, etc. I never said rationalism had a monopoly on ideologies, there are clearly religious ideologies as well. It is no coincidence that the most violent conflicts within the Church happened with the protestant reformation, which very much embraced rationalist modes of interpreting scripture.

Offline Eddie

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Re: Ships in Horrible Storms
« Reply #103 on: October 27, 2020, 09:20:39 AM »


I think your take on the Nazis here is correct. When I read your comment, it made me think of Lee Miller and her photos. This is the mayor of Leipzig, his wife, and his daughter....all who committed suicide rather than face the end of their ideology.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 11:23:14 AM by Eddie »
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline RE

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Re: Ships in Horrible Storms
« Reply #104 on: October 27, 2020, 11:19:27 AM »


I think your take on the Nazis here is correct. When I read your comment, it made me think of Lee Millar and her photos. This is the mayor of Leipzig, his wife, and his daughter....all who committed suicide rather than face the end of their ideology.

I wonder what they took?  Give me a double dose.

RE
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