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Offline RE

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Zombie Rehab: Coming Sunday to a Laptop Near You
« Reply #270 on: June 19, 2013, 07:05:59 PM »
OK!  My Text for the Zombie Rehab Blog Article is now basically complete, coming in around 2600 words this time, with no Quotes.  May get a bit larger before I publish for the Sunday Brunch article.

For the rest of the participants here in the thread, I encourage you also to write an article on this topic for the Blog.

As a Teaser, here are my Concluding 2 Paragraphs from ZOMBIE REHAB:

Quote
Difficult decisions are coming down the pipe here for everyone, regardless of whether you are a Diner or a Zombie at the moment.  Being aware, preparing and so forth does provide an Advantage for Survival, but it most certainly does not resolve the most DIFFICULT questions that will arrive when real SCARCITY problems hit in the area of JIT Food Distribution.  If you accept the idea that MANY people are going to DIE here once the Conduits of Industrialized living begin to fail earnestly and in Cascade Fashion, then if YOU are to SURVIVE, inevitably you will end up watching many other people, even LOVED ONES, DYING.

How can you live with this problem?  How can you make such a Die Off JUST?  These are the problems we consider every day inside the Diner, and I suspect some of the other Bloggers here will also respond to the questions in their own way as well.  I applaud that, because it is a Conversation we all must have, because this Problem is QUITE REAL, and you cannot WISH IT AWAY.

RE
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Offline RE

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Zombie Rehab
« Reply #271 on: June 23, 2013, 02:12:28 AM »
Zombie Rehab by Diner Neo-Tribal Darwinist Godfather RE now UP on the Diner Blog for Sunday Brunch!

Hoping to get perspectives on this also from LD, Ashvin and Agelbert to make a Series out of it.

RE
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Offline luciddreams

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Re: Zombie Rehab
« Reply #272 on: June 23, 2013, 09:17:38 AM »
Zombie Rehab by Diner Neo-Tribal Darwinist Godfather RE now UP on the Diner Blog for Sunday Brunch!

Hoping to get perspectives on this also from LD, Ashvin and Agelbert to make a Series out of it.

RE

Great piece RE :emthup:

My question is about looking at just the "carrying capacity" of a doomstead for a tribe.  Because that doomstead won't be in a vacuum and there will be other outlets for acquiring food for survivors for some time to come. 

I guess what I'm saying is that I wonder about calculating the amount of people whom can cooperatively take care of the tribes calorie needs.  I can imagine enlisting new arriving Zombies to help acquire much needed supplies from the failed periphery of society.  As a form of test.  "Go and acquire these items that we need and have been unable to acquire, and if you do that you can have a place here." 

Just saying that my concern is that trying to figure out how many people can exist in a post-petroleum human tribe based solely on what can be grown seems somewhat unrealistic to me as there will be industrial calories that can be obtained for quite some time for survivors.  Especially in a pandemic die off. 

Also.  I don't want to turn my Zombie family away from the foxstead, and I don't want to ask any member of the foxstead to do it either.  However this means that effectively there is no vetting process for who becomes a part of our tribe. 

I'm thinking now that the answer to our predicament is to make a Zombie right of passage into post-petroleum human status post collapse.  So we figure out what that will be and write it into the foxstead prospectus.  You pay the 10 grand and get your 1/3 acre at the foxstead under the condition that if you have family show up post collapse that they be subjected to this test.  The test will inherently be dangerous...as it should be.  But you've got to put some skin in the cooperation game of collective survival to reap the fruit of the collective labor. 

It's not eugenics.  It's transforming Zombies into humans in a post collapse world.  I think I can help with this due to my natural zombie whispering abilities   ;D

Offline RE

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Re: Zombie Rehab
« Reply #273 on: June 23, 2013, 03:35:09 PM »
Zombie Rehab by Diner Neo-Tribal Darwinist Godfather RE now UP on the Diner Blog for Sunday Brunch!

Hoping to get perspectives on this also from LD, Ashvin and Agelbert to make a Series out of it.

RE

Great piece RE :emthup:

My question is about looking at just the "carrying capacity" of a doomstead for a tribe.  Because that doomstead won't be in a vacuum and there will be other outlets for acquiring food for survivors for some time to come. 

I guess what I'm saying is that I wonder about calculating the amount of people whom can cooperatively take care of the tribes calorie needs.  I can imagine enlisting new arriving Zombies to help acquire much needed supplies from the failed periphery of society.  As a form of test.  "Go and acquire these items that we need and have been unable to acquire, and if you do that you can have a place here." 

Just saying that my concern is that trying to figure out how many people can exist in a post-petroleum human tribe based solely on what can be grown seems somewhat unrealistic to me as there will be industrial calories that can be obtained for quite some time for survivors.  Especially in a pandemic die off. 

Also.  I don't want to turn my Zombie family away from the foxstead, and I don't want to ask any member of the foxstead to do it either.  However this means that effectively there is no vetting process for who becomes a part of our tribe. 

I'm thinking now that the answer to our predicament is to make a Zombie right of passage into post-petroleum human status post collapse.  So we figure out what that will be and write it into the foxstead prospectus.  You pay the 10 grand and get your 1/3 acre at the foxstead under the condition that if you have family show up post collapse that they be subjected to this test.  The test will inherently be dangerous...as it should be.  But you've got to put some skin in the cooperation game of collective survival to reap the fruit of the collective labor. 

It's not eugenics.  It's transforming Zombies into humans in a post collapse world.  I think I can help with this due to my natural zombie whispering abilities   ;D

Thanks LD.

As I mentioned on the SUN  :icon_sunny: Board, if you are one of the Investors who has a Campsite, you pretty much can let as many as you feel like taking in onto the site, even though only 4-6 are "recommended.  This will not however entitle them to any of the production off the Foxstead LLCs.  If they can acquire food/money otherwise and said money still works, they will do fine.

Far as becoming true Tribe members goes, at first they are just Guests before they become Diners.  They'll have to Post Up a few times to get a better idea of whether they fit as a Diner.  :icon_mrgreen:  We can subject them to Napalm Contests to test their mettle!  LOL.

Seriously, as long as a person isn't a troublemaker and mostly keeps to themselves in their tent on some relatives campsite, they don't have to Dance around the Campfire naked with Orange Afro Wigs on to stay there.  Only if they cause trouble or dissention would you need a process for pitching them off the island.

The long term proceedure for testing Reproductive Age adolescents is one that probably doesn't need to be addressed for a while.  General Die Off might occur so fast that there is lots of land freely available for any survivors to go an start a New Foxstead.  At the same time though, just because there is lots of available land doesn't mean you want to make the same mistake again and go willy-nilly procreating exponentially.  So this will need to be addressed over time.

RE
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Offline JoeP

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Re: Zombie Rehab
« Reply #274 on: June 23, 2013, 04:34:32 PM »
First, we had this:

This may have already been covered and I missed it - my apology in advance.

Let's just say a family member of a Foxsteader that is considered a "zombie" shows up at a SUN location (post-collapse

eating cabbage) and says "I'm XYZ's cousin and I just didn't see shit happening this way"...and the related SUN family is

maxed out on their "family membership" quota.  What is the SUN protocol?...and for giggles, let's just say this intruder is

"kinda likeable".   :icon_mrgreen:

This is a question to be asked on the SUN  :icon_sunny: board, not here.

RE

And then we just get this:


As I mentioned on the SUN  :icon_sunny: Board, if you are one of the Investors who has a Campsite, you pretty much

can let as many as you feel like taking in onto the site, even though only 4-6 are "recommended.  This will not however

entitle them to any of the production off the Foxstead LLCs.  If they can acquire food/money otherwise and said money

still works, they will do fine.

Far as becoming true Tribe members goes, at first they are just Guests before they become Diners.  They'll have to Post

Up a few times to get a better idea of whether they fit as a Diner.  :icon_mrgreen:  We can subject them to Napalm

Contests to test their mettle!  LOL.

Seriously, as long as a person isn't a troublemaker and mostly keeps to themselves in their tent on some relatives

campsite, they don't have to Dance around the Campfire naked with Orange Afro Wigs on to stay there.  Only if they

cause trouble or dissention would you need a process for pitching them off the island.

The long term proceedure for testing Reproductive Age adolescents is one that probably doesn't need to be addressed

for a while.  General Die Off might occur so fast that there is lots of land freely available for any survivors to go an start a

New Foxstead.  At the same time though, just because there is lots of available land doesn't mean you want to make the

same mistake again and go willy-nilly procreating exponentially.  So this will need to be addressed over time.

RE


This is hilarious.   I guess it's back to "allowable for public viewing" again.   
just my straight shooting honest opinion

Offline RE

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Re: Zombie Rehab
« Reply #275 on: June 23, 2013, 06:18:29 PM »
This is hilarious.   I guess it's back to "allowable for public viewing" again.

Gimmee a break.  I am Throwing a Bone to the Hoi Polloi to encourage them to Pony Up for SUN  :icon_sunny: Board priviledges.  :icon_mrgreen:

It's BAITING Joe.  Did you ever go Fishing?  LOL.

RE
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Offline JoeP

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Re: Zombie Rehab
« Reply #276 on: June 23, 2013, 06:42:03 PM »
This is hilarious.   I guess it's back to "allowable for public viewing" again.

Gimmee a break.  I am Throwing a Bone to the Hoi Polloi to encourage them to Pony Up for SUN  :icon_sunny: Board priviledges.  :icon_mrgreen:

It's BAITING Joe.  Did you ever go Fishing?  LOL.

RE


OK.  So this means it's an advertising thing and you are the only one here capable of deciding when it's appropriate to do so?
 
just my straight shooting honest opinion

Offline RE

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Re: Zombie Rehab
« Reply #277 on: June 23, 2013, 06:53:09 PM »

OK.  So this means it's an advertising thing and you are the only one here capable of deciding when it's appropriate to do so?

Something like that.  ;)

I actually did think about this before I wrote the response, and was 50-50 on whether to put it up or move it over to the SUN  :icon_sunny: Board.  I decided to drop it on here because it is pretty slow lately so I figured it might perk things up.

Executive Godfather Decisionmaking.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE
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Offline agelbert

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Re: Zombie Rehab
« Reply #278 on: June 23, 2013, 07:52:50 PM »
RE,
I just read your excellent summary of the monumental gut wrenching decisions a doomer community is faced with after TSHTF. :emthup:

Quote
So, in this situation, are John & Kirsten OBLIGATED to take in Jon, Kristen, Robert, Samantha, Papa & Mama onto the Doomstead?

OBLIGATED?

1) You are making a valid case that the MAIN OBLIGATION of the doomsteaders is to the other doomsteaders.

2) Furthermore, you are adding the RATIONALLY perceived harm to said doomsteaders by adding more people due to the fact that they are over the planned group size for the land as it is.

You are saying that, as long as "2)" isn't the case, it's okay to take added people.

BUT if "2)" IS the case, there is an OBLIGATION to the other doomsteaders to deny entry to any and all comers.

When you ask, "What is JUST behavior?", you are, because of minimum human nutritional needs, REQUIRING that any ethical considerations about helping people in need MUST be shelved under condition "2)" as CFS. 

IOW, ethics are a luxury produced by having plenty of food and must be dispensed with when there isn't enough food for the survival of the community.

In my view, if sliding scale ethics can be considered JUST BEHAVIOR in even ONE situation, then ethics is, and always was, an illusion.

My life experiences have convinced me that ethical behavior is the only truly JUST behavior. Mind/spirit over matter and all that. :icon_mrgreen:

Here's what I would do. I would perform a modification of a Sophie's choice type decision.  :P

Since, as a member of the doomsteader community, I am well versed in survival techniques and the newcomer family members are not, I'll give up my position for their's. I would let the wife and children decide individually as well whether to stay and deny or go and trade places.

At the anger of my fellow doomsters that I had just won the Darwin award I would offer a compromise. I will appropriate some more land so the new members would be able to join the community without straining the resources.

They say, okay, go and take all the newcomers with you and come back when you have X acres of adjacent, or at least less than a day's travel from here, land. Have a nice day.

And that's how tribes form and wars for resources occur...

I can sit here in the comfort of my home and say I wouldn't kill other people to take their land because it is unethical. I can say I would rather die than kill people for resources. I can say that it's not ethical to engage in that behavior as a Christian. BUT, as YOU say, if all this ethics we humans believe in is SUBORDINATE to nutritional needs, I would "go barbarian"  and feel "justified" in TAKING whatever I could TAKE.

Maybe you are right, RE, that Homo SAP lives by BREAD (physical nutrition) ALONE. Maybe you are right that friendly, civilized, respectful and cordial behavior is merely a function of a full stomach, a roof over your head, good clothing and excellent health. Maybe you are right that all those niceties are a convenient veneer that we cover ourselves with when there is plenty to go around.

But I don't think so. And I'm willing to bet my life on it. I've done it before so I'll be better prepared next time. I won't hesitate as I did that day on the beach before doing the ETHICAL thing.


See you on the other side.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 07:56:55 PM by agelbert »
Leges         Sine    Moribus      Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

Offline RE

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Re: Zombie Rehab
« Reply #279 on: June 23, 2013, 08:26:07 PM »

But I don't think so. And I'm willing to bet my life on it. I've done it before so I'll be better prepared next time. I won't hesitate as I did that day on the beach before doing the ETHICAL thing.


See you on the other side.


For myself Agelbert, when the time comes for a decision as to whether I with my PAD are to continue living off the proceeds of the Foxstead LLCs or whether a younger, healthier Worthy Refugee who can better help the Tribe survive will be allowed a Place at the Campfire, this is the day I take the Last Kayak Trip Out to Sea.  Those are my ethics.  I will Suicide for the continued existence and betterment of the Tribe.

Far as I know however, Christians believe Suicide is a Mortal Sin.  Where do you stand on that one?

RE
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Offline agelbert

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Re: Zombie Rehab
« Reply #280 on: June 23, 2013, 08:34:53 PM »
Quote
Far as I know however, Christians believe Suicide is a Mortal Sin.  Where do you stand on that one?

RE


Well, it depends. :icon_mrgreen: If you are giving your life to save another life, it's NOT ONLY not a sin, IT's the HIGHEST VIRTUE YOU CAN ACHIEVE AS A CHRISTIAN.

John 15:13 Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

So I suspect JC would HONOR your kayak ride, rather than condemn it AS LONG AS you were convinced that your action would increase the viability of your friends.

So basically, we agree there.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 08:37:14 PM by agelbert »
Leges         Sine    Moribus      Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

Offline RE

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Re: Zombie Rehab
« Reply #281 on: June 23, 2013, 08:51:26 PM »
Quote
Far as I know however, Christians believe Suicide is a Mortal Sin.  Where do you stand on that one?

RE


Well, it depends. :icon_mrgreen: If you are giving your life to save another life, it's NOT ONLY not a sin, IT's the HIGHEST VIRTUE YOU CAN ACHIEVE AS A CHRISTIAN.

John 15:13 Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

So I suspect JC would HONOR your kayak ride, rather than condemn it AS LONG AS you were convinced that your action would increase the viability of your friends.

So basically, we agree there.

Well, the Last Kayak Trip Out to Sea is not my PREFERRED Ticket to the Great Beyond.  I'd more hope to sit in a Blind with my recently Field Amputated Gangrenous Legs by LD with my Barrett .50 Cal taking out the Army of the Illuminati as my friends make their Getaway.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ut7aMC9POyo?feature=player_detailpage" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/Ut7aMC9POyo?feature=player_detailpage</a>

Where do you think JC stands on that one?  How about you?

RE
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Offline Eddie

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Re: Zombie Rehab
« Reply #282 on: June 24, 2013, 07:04:28 AM »
RE
Do you really have a Barret .50? If so, I'm a little jealous. I decided some time back, though, that my .45-70s would have to suffice if I needed a high mass bullet.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline DoomerSupport

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Re: GM and LD said
« Reply #283 on: June 25, 2013, 06:06:47 PM »
Coming late to the party again, a couple of comments but busy right now, will be a few days before i get through this thread.

It is clear from the above quote that you are quite human because, as Maslow's hierarchy attests, lack of peer group acceptance is painful.

Maslow's hierarchy also gives potential insights into how people will behave when the ladder is pulled out from under them and higher needs are no longer met.


Quote
Well my friend, there are over 450 people in the Doomstead Diner. I wager that over 80% are "keeeping a low profile" about the matrix as a way of avoiding ostracism. Are they zombies?   :icon_scratch:

And keeping a low profile here as well.   :icon_scratch:


Quote
I studied your zombie research. Are you aware that the Libertarians have their own definition for a zombie that is QUITE mainstream right now among Republican circles as well? ANYBODY that works in a bureaucracy (i.e. GOVERNMENT JOB) is a zombie to them. If you don't own your own business or work in private enterprise, you are a dead beat zombie useless eater sponging off all those "job creator" predators out there that do "so much" to "help" the US economy.

Right label, wrong reasons.  Right that their job requires a functioning government to feed and clothe them, wrong in that they are seeing government as the problem, rather than a small part of a bigger problem.


Quote
If I had a nickel for everytime I heard that HORSESHIT from IDIOTS that have never been sweating bullets controlling air traffic, I would be rich. 
 


So yeah, the word "ZOMBIE" is a button pusher for me because of its propagandist use to demonize millions of town, county, state and federal employees.

It is a gross generalization put out there for the SOLE PURPOSE of trashing the commons, destroying good government (what's left of it), and funneling MORE profit into predatory capitalist pockets. :emthdown:

Of course.  You co-opt the terms.  Had the 9th circuit ruled in favor of Seattle city versus the Yellow Pages industry, within a year the term "opt-in" in the yellow pages context would have meant, in common parlance, opting into receiving the yellow pages via an electronic delivery.  So any publicity of the term "opt-in", had San Francisco's similar legislation succeeded, been associated with "I can sign up to get an electronic copy" and not "I have to sign up if I want a physical copy (the law we were fighting).

In the modern world, you define the battlefield, not the weapons, if you want to win.



Offline RE

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Re: GM and LD said
« Reply #284 on: June 25, 2013, 06:15:15 PM »
Quote
Well my friend, there are over 450 100 people and 350 Bots in the Doomstead Diner. I wager that over 80% are "keeeping a low profile" about the matrix as a way of avoiding ostracism. Are they zombies?   :icon_scratch:

Fixed that for you.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE
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