AuthorTopic: The Fox Den  (Read 17609 times)

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: The Fox Den
« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2013, 03:08:01 PM »
However, having said that, there is a lot of wisdom in the permaculture scene.  It's the best I've seen out there.  And permaculture design principals all make perfect sense and are an outstanding guide to help facilitate food production planning.  There is much to be gleaned from the permaculture principals is what I'm gettin' at, and it shouldn't be discarded as the product of marketing co-option with no intrinsic value to man. 

Having said all of that, the PDC is complete shit...I agree.  WTF I'm gonna pay 1000 dollars for a piece of paper?  So why don't we get together on somebodies property and install some rogue permaculture design as the central focus of the Convocation.  I've got plenty of holes need diggin' and food producing experiments need tweeking.  I've got a chicken keeping ecology that is ripe for evolution and transformation based on a bunch Diners throwing ideas off of each other.  We could keep a couple of campers/RV's on the property for while as well as tents.  I know you Doomer Boomers have them. 

So who all is interested in something like this?

Sound good to me, I certainly have enough on my plate as it is.  Here's what I had already planned to do if I were teaching the course:

1. Spend dozens of hours compiling the latest reference materials to put on discs to hand out to refer back to afterward
2. Make a special trip down to the Foxstead beforehand.
  a. Make sure all my systems were working
  b. Make accurate maps of the Foxstead and surrounding areas
  c. Inventory native and cultivated species on the Foxstead
3. Order copies of reference books in bulk
4. Make copies of the Foxstead maps for everyone, laminate several additional as working copies to use with dry erase markers
5. Make sure the material was organized in a manner to cover as effectively as possible in a short amount of time
6. Make sure meals, if any, are provided for
7. Make sure space is available for tenting
8. Make copies of everything that will be used during the PDC

And this is just what I've come up with before seriously starting to think about it.

Yes, I'd much rather just continue with my life and then drop everything for a couple days and head over and have a good time.  I don't need the headaches.
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline DoomerSupport

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Re: The Fox Den
« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2013, 04:34:06 PM »
However, having said that, there is a lot of wisdom in the permaculture scene.  It's the best I've seen out there.  And permaculture design principals all make perfect sense and are an outstanding guide to help facilitate food production planning.  There is much to be gleaned from the permaculture principals is what I'm gettin' at, and it shouldn't be discarded as the product of marketing co-option with no intrinsic value to man. 

Oh, there's no doubt about that !  Permaculture as such may be the only sustaining way to survive !!


When I just asked JMG what technologies he most wants to see survive and flourish, organic gardening and what we've learned about soil management in the last few decades was top of his list.

You'll have to wait for the podcast to know the other two.

Figured out how to convert to them to your walkerman for listening in the garden, BS?



Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: The Fox Den
« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2013, 06:06:21 PM »
Oh, there's no doubt about that !  Permaculture as such may be the only sustaining way to survive !!

All the stuff Mollison reaserched and wrote about is gold!  I took the course from 2 of his best pupils, but at least they are pretty much down to earth.

I spent weeks studying Sepp Holzer's farm in Austria while I was working over in Europe '89-'97.

Actually, this brings up another good point: the PDC really doesn't teach you Permaculture, especially when you take it as a one-week class.  I was lucky enough to take it as a 13-week class, but while that was great on the design side, implementation was nonexistent.  What it really does it gives you the framework you need to teach yourself Permaculture through practical experience.

Ideally, I would want to offer the PDC essentially for "free" -- maybe a few bucks to cover paperwork.  But it would be a 40 week, 30-40 hour a week course, with a very strong emphasis on hands on training.
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline RE

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IRL/Cyber Synergy for Permaculture Knowledge Distribution
« Reply #33 on: July 13, 2013, 06:13:21 PM »
Ideally, I would want to offer the PDC essentially for "free" -- maybe a few bucks to cover paperwork.  But it would be a 40 week, 30-40 hour a week course, with a very strong emphasis on hands on training.

How much has to be "Hands On"?  How much can be communicated through Video and online Seminars?

We could set up the Convocation as a 2-3 Day Intensive Introduction to PD at Four Quarters, and then offer anyone who comes to that a 1 year Ongoing Online Course with Lectures and Videos from Experts such as Toby Hemenway, JDW, WHD, LD, BC2K Roamer etc as a FREE BONUS for attending the Intensive Workshop.

Some of the software Haniel sent me to look at is Education software.  Haniel can jack this shit onto a website faster than you can say "TEOTWAWKI"  LOL.

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« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 06:16:52 PM by RE »
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Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: IRL/Cyber Synergy for Permaculture Knowledge Distribution
« Reply #34 on: July 13, 2013, 11:16:58 PM »
Ideally, I would want to offer the PDC essentially for "free" -- maybe a few bucks to cover paperwork.  But it would be a 40 week, 30-40 hour a week course, with a very strong emphasis on hands on training.
How much has to be "Hands On"?
To acquire the Certificate?  None of it.
To actually learn the skills?  Essentially all of it.

It would be amenable to an online treatment, but the interaction should go both all three ways, teacher-to-student, student-to-teacher, and student-to-student.  The students could put into practice the theories they learned in the intensive workshop and share the results.

One thing I think you missed was the scare quotes around the "free" for my ideal course.  Basically I would make it self-funding.  The students would not only grow and harvest their own food but also a surplus to sell at farmer's markets to cover their other costs.  Not only does this lower the costs for the students, but it gives them extremely valuable experience if they have any intention of making any kind of a living off of it, an area which is very poorly covered traditionally.
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline RE

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Re: IRL/Cyber Synergy for Permaculture Knowledge Distribution
« Reply #35 on: July 13, 2013, 11:49:01 PM »
Ideally, I would want to offer the PDC essentially for "free" -- maybe a few bucks to cover paperwork.  But it would be a 40 week, 30-40 hour a week course, with a very strong emphasis on hands on training.
How much has to be "Hands On"?
To acquire the Certificate?  None of it.
To actually learn the skills?  Essentially all of it.

It would be amenable to an online treatment, but the interaction should go both all three ways, teacher-to-student, student-to-teacher, and student-to-student.  The students could put into practice the theories they learned in the intensive workshop and share the results.

I am just looking for a way to synergize what can be done practically with the time most people have available by having some Intensive Time in an IRL Workshop, while extending out the Practical Application to each participant's Home Garden through the marvel of the Internet and Video.

Not knowing Jack Shit about this subject of course makes what I am about to write highly speculative.  The idea is that during the 2-3 day Intensive Workshop, the students are exposed to a variety of methods they are expected to then pursue on their Home Turf on returning home.  They have digi-cameras, and once at home they video/photograph their efforts as they proceed through the course of the season.  The Online Education Software package allows them to Upload this stuff, so the Teachers/Experts can view their progress and make criticisms/suggestions for improvement.  Problems with Pests, Climate Conditions etc can be discussed in a Virtual Classroom setting, where the other Students can also listen in on the discussions and gather more information applicable to their own situations.

In this way, you draw together what must be done Hands On Practically by each Student, while using the communication medium of the Internet to allow ALL the students distributed over various Locations and Climates to share their experiences and get further advice and tutelage from the Permaculture Pros.

If this idea flies, we set Aspie Haniel on the task of finding the right piece of Education Software to drop on the SUN  :icon_sunny: Website.

RE
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Offline BC2K

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Re: The Fox Den
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2013, 08:40:11 AM »
The ESTIA PDC course was given last year at our Epicenter Farm in Bucksport, Maine.  I took care of all the logistics, setting up the facilities, getting electrical power from a nice neighbor for the video projector, hauling spring water and wash water from town. Procuring food, materials, supplies and tools for evrything there.

Baths were taken care of by swimming in the nearby lake 1/4 mile away. It was hot, so those daily afternoon baths werw a relief. We had 2 compost toilets, and a rented porta-john (to appease the code inspector).

We had 14 university students who camped on-site for 10 days.  Meals were cooked in a kitchen pavillion by 3 sets of volunteers, each doing a 3 day stint, - one day was "brown-bag" for field trip to Eilliot Coleman's farm and the old Scott & Helen Nearing Foundation estate.

Charles and Julia Yelton, two of Mollisons original students in Australia, gave a VERY inensive course (reputed to be the best).  Every day had 8 -10 hours of lectures, demonstration and labs on every point of the permaculture scene.

Click for pics ==> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1366&bih=594&q=estia+epicenter&oq=estia+epicenter&gs_l=img.12...3381.6804.0.8934.15.7.0.8.8.0.106.677.5j2.7.0....0...1ac.1.19.img.nYHBoLuNfl8
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Offline DoomerSupport

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Re: The Fox Den
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2013, 11:02:16 AM »

Baths were taken care of by swimming in the nearby lake 1/4 mile away. It was hot, so those daily afternoon baths were a relief. We had 2 compost toilets, and a rented porta-john (to appease the code inspector).



That reminds me, how onerous are coding laws up there in Maine?  Was it a pain getting the permitting for all your unconventional building techniques?







Offline BC2K

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Re: The Fox Den
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2013, 12:08:15 PM »
Baths were taken care of by swimming in the nearby lake 1/4 mile away. It was hot, so those daily afternoon baths were a relief. We had 2 compost toilets, and a rented porta-john (to appease the code inspector).

That reminds me, how onerous are coding laws up there in Maine?  Was it a pain getting the permitting for all your unconventional building techniques?

It depends upon the town... the most rural ones are fairly relaxed. None are forced to adopt Maine codes except for septic system design requirements.

Bucksport has a large paper mill, the only "industry" per se on the mid-coast of Maine. Hence some of the attitudes are more critical. The buildings on the Estia 'stead were all "grandfathered" before Bucksport adopted several requirements of Maine's more nationally recognized building codes. 

Luckily, the only thing the code enforcement officer demanded out there at Estia (10 miles from town), was a porta-john, and a wastewater collection system for "gray water" as we had no leach field in place. We got around that by having and old 275 gallon flat oil tank with a big enough hole in the top to pour buckets of gray water in. We were allowed to simply dump it into a municipal sewer drain when needed, but since no one came out to check on it we simply watered the gardens with it. We only used Dr. Bronner's hippie-era biodegradable soap out there for everything.

As far as my own solar house is concerned, back when I built it in the mid-70's the only building code on the books here in town (other than sewer system specs) was "Tar paper must be covered within one year by siding."    ;D
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Offline GypsyMama

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Re: IRL/Cyber Synergy for Permaculture Knowledge Distribution
« Reply #39 on: July 15, 2013, 08:14:28 PM »
Ideally, I would want to offer the PDC essentially for "free" -- maybe a few bucks to cover paperwork.  But it would be a 40 week, 30-40 hour a week course, with a very strong emphasis on hands on training.
How much has to be "Hands On"?
To acquire the Certificate?  None of it.
To actually learn the skills?  Essentially all of it.

It would be amenable to an online treatment, but the interaction should go both all three ways, teacher-to-student, student-to-teacher, and student-to-student.  The students could put into practice the theories they learned in the intensive workshop and share the results.

I am just looking for a way to synergize what can be done practically with the time most people have available by having some Intensive Time in an IRL Workshop, while extending out the Practical Application to each participant's Home Garden through the marvel of the Internet and Video.

Not knowing Jack Shit about this subject of course makes what I am about to write highly speculative.  The idea is that during the 2-3 day Intensive Workshop, the students are exposed to a variety of methods they are expected to then pursue on their Home Turf on returning home.  They have digi-cameras, and once at home they video/photograph their efforts as they proceed through the course of the season.  The Online Education Software package allows them to Upload this stuff, so the Teachers/Experts can view their progress and make criticisms/suggestions for improvement.  Problems with Pests, Climate Conditions etc can be discussed in a Virtual Classroom setting, where the other Students can also listen in on the discussions and gather more information applicable to their own situations.

In this way, you draw together what must be done Hands On Practically by each Student, while using the communication medium of the Internet to allow ALL the students distributed over various Locations and Climates to share their experiences and get further advice and tutelage from the Permaculture Pros.

If this idea flies, we set Aspie Haniel on the task of finding the right piece of Education Software to drop on the SUN  :icon_sunny: Website.

RE

I find this idea to be very clever :)  Pretty genius, in fact :)  I'm surprised RE didn't call HIMSELF a genius after this post. 

I'm just now stepping into studying the permaculture scene,  and know that there are "online" courses...but this is idea of combining "hands-on" with a followup of video interaction among students and continued input from the instructors is F'in BRILLIANT!  I'd be all over being involved with this course if I happened upon it while searching for a way to obtain a PDC.  I think this is gold.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 05:48:59 AM by GypsyMama »

Offline RE

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Re: IRL/Cyber Synergy for Permaculture Knowledge Distribution
« Reply #40 on: July 15, 2013, 08:29:40 PM »
I'm surprised RE didn't call HIMSELF a genious after this post. 

I have GENIUS ideas so often that they appear normal to me.  :icon_mrgreen:


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Offline DoomerSupport

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Re: IRL/Cyber Synergy for Permaculture Knowledge Distribution
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2013, 09:18:18 AM »

I am just looking for a way to synergize what can be done practically with the time most people have available by having some Intensive Time in an IRL Workshop, while extending out the Practical Application to each participant's Home Garden through the marvel of the Internet and Video.

Not knowing Jack Shit about this subject of course makes what I am about to write highly speculative.  The idea is that during the 2-3 day Intensive Workshop, the students are exposed to a variety of methods they are expected to then pursue on their Home Turf on returning home.  They have digi-cameras, and once at home they video/photograph their efforts as they proceed through the course of the season.  The Online Education Software package allows them to Upload this stuff, so the Teachers/Experts can view their progress and make criticisms/suggestions for improvement.  Problems with Pests, Climate Conditions etc can be discussed in a Virtual Classroom setting, where the other Students can also listen in on the discussions and gather more information applicable to their own situations.

In this way, you draw together what must be done Hands On Practically by each Student, while using the communication medium of the Internet to allow ALL the students distributed over various Locations and Climates to share their experiences and get further advice and tutelage from the Permaculture Pros.

If this idea flies, we set Aspie Haniel on the task of finding the right piece of Education Software to drop on the SUN  :icon_sunny: Website.

RE

I find this idea to be very clever :)  Pretty genius, in fact :)  I'm surprised RE didn't call HIMSELF a genius after this post. 

I'm just now stepping into studying the permaculture scene,  and know that there are "online" courses...but this is idea of combining "hands-on" with a followup of video interaction among students and continued input from the instructors is F'in BRILLIANT!  I'd be all over being involved with this course if I happened upon it while searching for a way to obtain a PDC.  I think this is gold.

How to provide a living for multiple families from urban permaculture and aquaculture is something I've been working on for quite some time.

Take a team of three gardening enthusiasts who need work.  How many aquaculture and/or permaculture gardens can any two of them maintain on an ongoing basis?  How many people can they feed?  I say two people, because that allows the third to take time off from garden work to handle a farmers market stall and other work that is best done as a commons.

Organic gardening techniques are so far advanced from the skills previous generations had that it's not even the same playing field.  It provides tools to allow us to live off the land without destroying it. Maybe not 8 billion of us, but a significant number for the amount of usable biosphere we may have. Of all the technologies that Greer would save for the future, organic gardening techniques were top of is list, as he expounds on the in the forthcoming podcast.

Home owners trade garden space for a percentage of the food produced in that garden, on a sliding scale dependent on homeowner involvement.  A completely hands-off member might give up 50% of the produce, enjoying a basket of fresh produce each week much like a CSA customer. Another may be gardening enthusiast who wants to be part of the network and handles a lot of the day-to-day tasks and trades 20% of the food to the network.

A third is having trouble making the mortgage payment so does a lot of the work, gives up 50% of the produce and gets reimbursed from the cash raised selling at market. After a few months the original three split and this person starts joins one of the second-generation teams, helping a few more neighbors, making enough from their share of the farmers market/CSA share to keep the wolf from the door.

Three teams of three do not need three people at the farmers market. So out the the scheduling of two-can-handle-what's growing you have surplus time in the local "cells" for one person to spend a few hours every week making really good compost, or building an aquaculture setup in a new network-members back yard. 

As the team grows, you'll want to find a person really good at recycling materials to make the aquaculture equipment, keeping costs down. Those who need good, home grown food are often not in a position to afford an expensive setup.

For something to really help to "save as many as possible" it has to be cheap, easily to replicate, and grows naturally, like cell division. 

The danger is this becomes a pyramid scheme instead of a net.


Offline luciddreams

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Re: The Fox Den
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2013, 09:30:41 AM »
I'll tell you one thing I'm certain of when it comes to food.  I don't want my belly to be reliant upon annuals grown in a garden.  For the most part, IMO, annuals are just spice and extra nutrition but not calories.

Ideally I want all of my calories coming from food producing trees, perennials, and animal husbandry. 

Annuals just have too many pests. 

Offline Eddie

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Re: The Fox Den
« Reply #43 on: July 18, 2013, 09:34:43 AM »
There has been some complaining on the permaculture yahoo group here lately that TPTB have restricted farmers to selling ONLY the produce from their own gardens, and won't let them sell the produce produced at another local farm at the local farmers markets. This prohibits them from helping each other out and  means that they each have to pay for a booth. Whatever system you devise, it would be best to figure out a way to stay under the radar of Satan State and local authorities.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 09:41:32 AM by Eddie »
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Offline RE

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Re: IRL/Cyber Synergy for Permaculture Knowledge Distribution
« Reply #44 on: July 18, 2013, 09:38:13 AM »

The danger is this becomes a pyramid scheme instead of a net.

Well, since WHD now has Toby Hemenway signed on for a Podcast, I would say we are well on the way to getting a Permaculture Education Network (PEN Mightier than the Sword! LOL) started!  :icon_sunny:

RE
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 09:40:23 AM by RE »
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