AuthorTopic: Remember  (Read 24083 times)

Offline Eddie

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Re: Remember
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2013, 07:07:21 AM »
A major effect of the BUILDING of the atomic bomb was that it was in effect , the beginning of our secret military. Bureaucracies like the NSA and NRO trace their lineage directly back to the Manhattan project.

From essentially NO secret government in 1939... to today when we have an approximate 4 MILLION U.S, gov't employees with a job that they can't even talk about. I'd say that's been a slippery slope, and a huge contribution to the abuse and loss of our civil liberties.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Surly1

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Re: Remember
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2013, 07:24:34 AM »
A major effect of the BUILDING of the atomic bomb was that it was in effect , the beginning of our secret military. Bureaucracies like the NSA and NRO trace their lineage directly back to the Manhattan project.

From essentially NO secret government in 1939... to today when we have an approximate 4 MILLION U.S, gov't employees with a job that they can't even talk about. I'd say that's been a slippery slope, and a huge contribution to the abuse and loss of our civil liberties.

Indeed.

Another thought occurred the other day: cnsider the number of people who now have a financial stake in the Natioonal Security State. Not only the members of the client defense corporations, who have a direct stake and skin in the game, but now the 2) network of  contractors a la Snowden hired by the NSA to sift through data and create "actionable intelligence" (what did you reall think was in Dick Cheney's celebrated safe, Snickers bars?); militarized and SWAT-hardened local cops (think Barney Fife in SWAT armor and a tank); the armies of TSA drones emboldened to sexually assault those foolish enough to travel; and those "security firms" and individuals hired by a variety of alphabet agencies to "watch the watchers," and their name is legion.

At a time when young people are living six to a house because they can not find meaningful or remunerative work because we passed laws to encourage off-shoring of American jobs, employment can be found in these parasitic and pointless "security" endeavors, which have less utility that theatre, but which continue to serve to remind a pasive and feckless people that they are being watched. and listened to. And fondled. All with malice.

Make no mistake: this government fears the people.
“The old world is dying, and the New World struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters.”

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: Remember
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2013, 09:03:23 AM »
Certain things require no "more" evidence. They are a given. One day the sun hits peak hydrogen and the temporal illusion of sustainability will be obvious to those without foresight. Those schmoes are sure gonna be surprised, when they realize that regardless of what they did, or hoped, or worked for, their gardening plot and solar panels sure can't help out much when what they REALLY needed was to find a way to get a couple more billion tons a day of hydrogen fed to the local nuclear furnace to keep the lights on!
Actually MK you have it all wrong.  Global warming will do us in long before peak hydrogen.  The Sun is gradually heating up and within a billion years the Earth's oceans will have all boiled away.  Before that though, I've seen estimates that in as little as a million years there would need to be 0 carbon dioxide in the atmosphere to keep the average wet bulb temperature under 95 F, which is what humans need to survive.

This is the best argument against extinction, IMHO.  Letting ourselves go extinct is morally equivalent to suicide in my book.  The responsible thing to do is to stick around and clean up the mess we've made.
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline WHD

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Re: Remember
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2013, 10:55:26 AM »
Quote
and to win the war.

Dorian Gray could not have said it any better (or more rapaciously).

More evidence of unsustainability for you.  :icon_mrgreen:

Certain things require no "more" evidence. They are a given. One day the sun hits peak hydrogen and the temporal illusion of sustainability will be obvious to those without foresight. Those schmoes are sure gonna be surprised, when they realize that regardless of what they did, or hoped, or worked for, their gardening plot and solar panels sure can't help out much when what they REALLY needed was to find a way to get a couple more billion tons a day of hydrogen fed to the local nuclear furnace to keep the lights on!

I.E. More BAU, fuck the little guy, it goes without saying we had to drop those bombs on those little people, fuck them - from our resident troll, who thinks since peak hydrogen on the sun will come eventually, the only thing to be done is rape each other and the planet, to whatever degree we can.

I know you didn't say it exactly like that, troll. I'm just interpreting for you.  :icon_mrgreen:

WHD

Offline RE

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Re: Remember
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2013, 12:20:04 PM »
One day the sun hits peak hydrogen and the temporal illusion of sustainability will be obvious to those without foresight.

Anybody else notice that whenever Socrates is getting destroyed in an argument  he brings us Peak Hydrogen on the Sun? :icon_sunny:  How much mileage can he get from this strawman?  LOL.

RE
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Offline agelbert

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Re: Remember
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2013, 02:12:38 PM »
Quote
I.E. More BAU, fuck the little guy, it goes without saying we had to drop those bombs on those little people, fuck them - from our resident troll, who thinks since peak hydrogen on the sun will come eventually, the only thing to be done is rape each other and the planet, to whatever degree we can.

I know you didn't say it exactly like that, troll. I'm just interpreting for you.  :icon_mrgreen:

WHD


My dear fellow! I have now confirmed the fact that you can perceive MKing's rapaciously reprobate, felonious celebration of barbarity for fun and sadistic joy quite accurately! :emthup:

IOW you've got MKing's NUMBER!  :icon_mrgreen:   




MKing hard at troll duty.  :evil4:
Leges         Sine    Moribus      Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

Offline agelbert

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Manhattan Project = $20 billion All OTHER WWII explosives = $31.5 billion
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2013, 03:52:03 PM »
The Costs of the Manhattan Project

- All figures in constant 1996 dollars -

Expenditures through August 1945:*

*Includes costs from 1940-42 for the National Defense Research Council and the Office of Scientific Research and Development. Excludes $76 million spent by the Army Air Forces on Project SILVERPLATE from September 1943 through September 1945 (Project SILVERPLATE covered the modification of 46 B-29 bombers in support of the Manhattan Project, trained the personnel of the 509th composite bombing group, and provided logistical support for units based at Tinian Island, launching point for the attacks on Japan).

$20 billion  =  $29.8 billion in 2013


Comparison With Selected WWII Expenditures:

Cost data are for 1942-1945. The total cost to the United States for World War II was approximately $3.3 trillion.)

All bombs, mines and grenades — $31.5 billion  =   $46.2 billion in 2013

Small arms materiel (not incl. ammunition) — $24 billion
All tanks — $64 billion
Heavy field artillery — $4 billion
All other artillery — $33.6 billion

Atomic devices/bombs produced and date detonated:
 
Gadget   July 16, 1945   Alamogordo      
Little Boy    August 6, 1945   Hiroshima      
Fat Man   August 9, 1945   Nagasaki      
Bomb No. 4   unused      

Average cost per atomic device/bomb:
$5 billion        =         $7.5 billion in 2013
(GOLDEN DARWIN AWARDED 4 TIMES!)
 

WE DIDN'T NEED THE BOMB OR THE EXPENSE, PERIOD!

But SOMEBODY MADE A LOT OF MONEY...

Here's WHO:



Site/Project                                Then-year Dollars      Constant 1996 Dollars
 
OAK RIDGE (Total)                               $1,188,352,000   $13,565,662,000      
—K-25 Gaseous Diffusion Plant   $512,166,000   $5,846,644,000      
—Y-12 Electromagnetic Plant                    $477,631,000   $5,452,409,000      
—Clinton Engineer Works, HQ and central utilities   $155,951,000   $1,780,263,000      
—Clinton Laboratories                 $26,932,000   $307,443,000      
—S-50 Thermal Diffusion Plant   $15,672,000   $178,904,000      
HANFORD ENGINEER WORKS              $390,124,000   $4,453,470,000      
SPECIAL OPERATING MATERIALS   $103,369,000   $1,180,011,000      
LOS ALAMOS PROJECT                  $74,055,000   $845,377,000      
RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT   $69,681,000   $795,445,000      
GOVERNMENT OVERHEAD                  $37,255,000   $425,285,000      
HEAVY WATER PLANTS1                 $26,768,000   $305,571,000      

Grand Total                       $1,889,604,000      $21,570,821,000 =  $32,147,274,217 in 2013
 
   


Sources: Richard G. Hewlett and Oscar E. Anderson, Jr.,

The New World: A History of the United States Atomic Energy Commission, Volume 1, 1939/1946

(Oak Ridge, Tennessee: U.S. AEC Technical Information Center, 1972), pp. 723-724. Includes capital and operations costs from 1942 through 1945. Costs adjusted using a base year of 1944 (the year of highest Manhattan Project expenditures). Actual costs per facility per year are apparently unknown.  :evil4: 
1

Designed and constructed by E.B. Badger and Sons and the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company of Canada in Trail, British Columbia and by E. I. duPont de Nemours and Company in Morgantown, West Virginia, Montgomery, Alabama, and Dana, Indiana.
 
http://www.brookings.edu/about/projects/archive/nucweapons/manhattan
Leges         Sine    Moribus      Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

Offline agelbert

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Re: Remember
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2013, 04:26:43 PM »
     
Leges         Sine    Moribus      Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

Offline RE

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Re: Remember
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2013, 06:11:13 PM »

You might not like the facts of the physical world, but fortunately you not liking them doesn't make them go away.

The fact the Sun will eventually go Red Giant is not a fact of the physical world I lose the least bit of sleep over.  We have nearer term issues to deal with here. I can put off worrying about that one until I am reincarnated a bunch more times.

RE
Save As Many As You Can

Offline RE

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Re: Remember
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2013, 10:39:08 PM »

That is the spirit! Once you accept the doom of the species regardless of what and how and why we do things to each other and our planet, the much more jovial fellow you will be!

The fact in the the long run, the survival rate of everyone drops to ZERO (thank you Tyler Durden) is not a good rationale for turning the Planet into a Sewer and accelerating the process.  That is basically on a species level choosing Suicide as opposed to living out your lifespan and succumbing to Death from Old Age.

Quote
Excellent progress you are making! Pretty soon you might not even feel the urge to hide in the woods any more!

I'm not "Hiding in the Woods".  I am not doing subsistence living out in the Bush.  I just live in one of the lowest population zones on the Planet with the best resources still available that you can get a 24/7 Wireless Connection to the Internet.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE
Save As Many As You Can

Offline WHD

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Re: Remember
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2013, 10:52:15 PM »
Quote
The bombs were dropped. Japan surrendered in days. The guilt felt by those who always think there should be another way can in no way prove that without the bombs the Japanese would have surrendered in early August, 1945. Why? Because the bombs obviously worked, and that fact cannot be disputed without some convoluted, after the fact tap dancing.

Remember,

MKing will sanction the dropping of nuclear bombs on you if it will quell your rebellion.

WHD

Offline Surly1

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Re: Remember
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2013, 03:35:45 AM »
Trying to prove a negative never works. Maybe this could have happened, maybe that, maybe the tens of thousands of Marines and millions of Japanese estimated to be killed in an invasion from the sea might have happened, none of this really matters in light of what DID happen.

Two bombs were dropped. The war ended. The purpose of those bombs was to end the war. They worked.

Anything else is shoulda/woulda/coulda Monday morning quarterbacking.

MKing,
Your assertion is a post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy.
Funkyspec cites the relevant evidence, which you dismiss by asserting, "The bombs worked."
The bombs were unnecessary. Many military leaders now revered as near demigods said so. To expend on Funkyspec's:

You cannot prove the negative. And I am quite happy to break most things down to factual component pieces to make sure that it is always the other party having to come up with convoluted semantics to dodge basic, factual issues.

The bombs were dropped. Japan surrendered in days. The guilt felt by those who always think there should be another way can in no way prove that without the bombs the Japanese would have surrendered in early August, 1945. Why? Because the bombs obviously worked, and that fact cannot be disputed without some convoluted, after the fact tap dancing.

Quote from: Surly1
Like all Americans, I was taught that the U.S. dropped nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in order to end WWII and save both American and Japanese lives.
But most of the top American military officials at the time said otherwise.
The U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey group, assigned by President Truman to study the air attacks on Japan, produced a report in July of 1946 that concluded (52-56):
Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey’s opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945 and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated.

Thanks for putting a date on exactly when the Monday morning tap dancing officially began.

You are nothing of not consistent. A dependable and eager apologist for The Official Story and the Received Wisdom.

Coincidence is not causation. History, as you would know if you would allow any sunlight into the airless vault of your mind, is written by the winners. Other viewpoints are ignored, shunned, or ridiculed. In much the same way as you are doing here.

As a man I once worked for once said, "Often wrong, but never in doubt."
“The old world is dying, and the New World struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters.”

Offline RE

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Re: Remember
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2013, 03:58:43 AM »

You are nothing if not consistent. A dependable and eager apologist for The Official Story and the Received Wisdom.

Let me Translate that to Diner Lingo, RE style.  IMHO, Surly lacks enough Surliness.  :icon_mrgreen:

Socrates is a PUKE FACTORY.  The VOMIT coming off his keyboard will make you SICK.

I hope this makes it clear to the newbies.

RE
Save As Many As You Can

Offline Surly1

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Re: Remember
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2013, 12:06:04 PM »
You are nothing of not consistent. A dependable and eager apologist for The Official Story and the Received Wisdom.

Some might just call it "give reality a chance", but I understand the need for everything to fit into some greater, America is bad context, empire this, GMO that, regardless of the facts of the matter, the logical inconsistencies, those sorts of issues.

Quote from: Surly1
Coincidence is not causation.

Go teach your grandmother to suck eggs, this one gets taught in "How To Be A Scientist 101".

And sure, you are right, the Japanese were already preparing for the big surrender party on September 2, 1945 and the bombs just got in the way of collecting the sushi and saki for the party. Right.

Hey Dickless!

That's right.

You. Dickless.

I will not deal with the rest of your masturbatory diatribe, although rest assured I could dispatch it with the easy aplomb that I will this argument here.

Let's talk history, shall we? Let's consult the evidence. These are what the smart kids call facts.

Quote
   "It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima
    and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan.
    The Japanese were almost defeated and ready to surrender...in being
    the first to use it, we...adopted an ethical standard common to the
    barbarians of the Dark Ages."

    ---Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy,
    Chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during World War II

*
A timeline of events in the Pacific Theatre

January 1945 - *MacArthur forwarded to the President a Japanese offer
to surrender to which was exactly what we accepted 7 months later. Had
it been accepted when first offered, there would have been no heavy loss
of life on Iwo Jima (over 26,033 Americans killed or wounded,
approximately 21,000 Japanese killed) and Okinawa (over 39,000 U.S. dead
and wounded, 109,000 Japanese dead), no fire bombing of Japanese cities
by B-29 bombers (it is estimated that the dropping of 1,700 tons of
incendiary explosives on Japanese cities during March 9th-10th alone
killed over 80,000 civilians and destroyed 260,000 buildings), and no
use of the atomic bomb (200,000 killed). **
*
5 April 1945 -* Japan appointed Prime Minister Suzuki Kantaro who was
known to be a peace advocate.

*8 May 1945 -* Japan tried to surrender through the Soviet Union.

*June 1945 - *Both the US Army and Navy recommended to Truman that he
clarify the US demands in regard to the Emperor. It was recognized that
he was absolutely essential so he could order his men to lay down their
arms. Without him, there would have been anarchy in Japan.

*11 July 1945 -* Japan offered to surrender unconditionally, with one
exception - they wished to retain their monarchy. They didn't insist on
retaining Emperor Hirohito. They were willing to replace him with his
small son, for example. The US wouldn't even talk to them - the bomb was
dropped on them without the US ever responding to any of their peace
feelers. Since we let them keep their monarchy (they never
unconditionally surrendered - the US offered assurances to the Emperor
on August 11 after both bombs were dropped, when they had the
assurances they surrendered), there was no difference between this
offer and what happened on August 14. Every death after July 11, both US
and Japanese, was a war crime committed by Harry Truman. In July, Japan
was totally helpless and was being shelled from sea and air. Japan had
been bombed back to the stone age. Its population was facing imminent
starvation. Much of the Japanese Army was stranded in China or scattered
across islands like the Philippines or New Britain.

The Japanese Navy had, capable of unaided movement, two aircraft
carriers (one damaged) with no planes, three damaged cruisers, 41
destroyers, most damaged to some degree, and 59 submarines. There were
829 vessels incapable of movement, some lying on the bottom in shallow
water, some floating upside down, some listing, others awash.


Here are a few of the Japanese attempts to end the war in July:

Quote
July 11: "make clear to Russia... We have no intention of annexing or
taking possession of the areas which we have been occupying as a result
of the war; we hope to terminate the war".

July 12: "it is His Majesty's heart's desire to see the swift termination of the war".

Quote
July 13: "I sent Ando, Director of the Bureau of Political Affairs to
communicate to the [Soviet] Ambassador that His Majesty desired to
dispatch Prince Konoye as special envoy, carrying with him the personal
letter of His Majesty stating the Imperial wish to end the war" /(for
above items, see: U.S. Dept. of State, Potsdam 1, pg. 873-879). /

Quote
July 18:  "Negotiations... necessary... for soliciting Russia's good
offices in concluding the war and also in improving the basis for
negotiations with England and America." /(Magic-Diplomatic Summary,
7/18/45, Records of the National Security Agency, Magic Files, RG 457,
Box 18, National Archives). /

Quote
July 22: "Special Envoy Konoye's mission will be in obedience to the
Imperial Will. He will request assistance in bringing about an end to
the war through the good offices of the Soviet Government." The July
21st communication from Togo also noted that a conference between the
Emperor's emissary, Prince Konoye, and the Soviet Union, was sought, in
preparation for contacting the U.S. and Great Britain (/Magic-Diplomatic
Summary, 7/22/45, Records of the National Security Agency, Magic Files,
RG 457, Box 18, National Archives).

Quote
July 26  Japan's Ambassador to Moscow, Sato, to the Soviet Acting
Commissar for Foreign Affairs, Lozovsky: "The aim of the Japanese
Government with regard to Prince Konoye's mission is to enlist the good
offices of the Soviet Government in order to end the war."
/(Magic-Diplomatic Summary, 7/26/45, Records of the National Security
Agency, Magic Files, RG 457, Box 18, National Archives). /

1945 Truman used atomic bombs on two Japanese cities, Hiroshima on
August 6 and Nagasaki on August 9. Now generally considered a war crime,
at the minimum it was the murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent
civilians. There was no lack of military targets or a demonstration in a
remote place was possible, so the selection of targets is indefensible,
leaving aside the issue of whether the bombing was justified in the
first place. To make this decision Truman had to wave aside concerns
about post blast radiation, which was an unknown quantity at that time,
and even the possibility of an unstoppable chain reaction in the
atmosphere which would destroy the world. It was pointed out to him that
one bomb dropped on a city would have an effect undistinguishable from
and no greater than a big B-29 incendiary raid of the kind already in
progress, in terms of immediate casualties and total damage. In other
words, this was utterly senseless.


Whatever point Truman thought he was making was made with the first one.
Dropping the bomb to "end the war sooner" was a falsification of history
because Truman, in fact, lengthened the war in order to drop the bomb.
First he postponed the Potsdam Conference and thereby the Russian
declaration of war on Japan for two weeks until the bomb was ready and
then he had the language for assurances to the Emperor deleted so the
Potsdam Declaration would be unacceptable to the Japanese.

The US Strategic Bombing Survey explicitly stated that the war would
have ended sooner if they had chosen different targets – but the goal
was not to end the war but to support an invasion . As to the argument
that the bomb saved American lives - it is spurious to assert as fact
that obliterating Hiroshima in August was needed to obviate an invasion
in November - the date we had planned. The April 30, 1946 study by the
War Department's Military Intelligence Division concluded, "The war
would almost certainly have terminated when Russia entered the war
against Japan." This remains the only use of atomic weapons in anger.

Before the bomb was dropped, some scientists of the Manhattan Project
produced the Franck Report which questioned the ability of destroying
Japanese cities with atomic bombs to bring surrender when destroying
Japanese cities with conventional bombs had not done so. It recommended
a demonstration of the atomic bomb for Japan in an unpopulated area.

Facing the long-term consequences with Russia, the report stated
prophetically:

Quote
    "If no international agreement is concluded immediately after the
    first demonstration, this will mean a flying start of an unlimited
    armaments race."

The report pointed out that the United States, with its highly concentrated urban areas,
would become a prime target for nuclear weapons and concluded:
Quote
    "We believe that these considerations make the use of nuclear bombs
    for an early, unannounced attack against Japan inadvisable. If the
    United States would be the first to release this new means of
    indiscriminate destruction upon mankind, she would sacrifice public
    support throughout the world, precipitate the race of armaments, and
    prejudice the possibility of reaching an international agreement on
    the future control of such weapons."

Quote
When Eisenhower was told of the bomb he said: "...the Japanese were
ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful
thing." - Ike on Ike, Newsweek, 11/11/63

On August 8, 1945, after the atomic bombing of Hiroshima, Herbert Hoover
wrote to Army and Navy Journal, "The use of the atomic bomb, with its
indiscriminate killing of women and children, revolts my soul."

May of 1946 Hoover met with General Douglas MacArthur. Hoover recorded
in his diary, "I told MacArthur of my memorandum of mid-May 1945 to
Truman, that peace could be had with Japan by which our major objectives
would be accomplished.

"MacArthur said that was correct and that we would
have avoided all of the losses, the Atomic bomb, and the entry of Russia
into Manchuria."


The U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey group, assigned by President Truman to
study the air attacks on Japan, produced a report in July of 1946:

Quote
    "Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by
    the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the
    Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945 and in all
    probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered
    even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had
    not entered  he war, and even if no invasion had been planned or
    contemplated."


But feel free to ignore the testimony of those who were there, who witnessed what happened, who had the actual intelligence. Let's not believe Eisenhower, Mac Arthur, the historical record of the various offers of surrender, or the USSBS. Let's believe MKing because the the Official Wisdom is Good For Business.

Squat down and squeeze out another opinion, like a good corporate servant and acolyte.

I haven't had this much fun beating a troll since my TBP days.

Evidence. Get you some.

Thanks for playing our game.
“The old world is dying, and the New World struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters.”

Offline Surly1

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Re: Remember
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2013, 12:27:24 PM »

You are nothing if not consistent. A dependable and eager apologist for The Official Story and the Received Wisdom.

Let me Translate that to Diner Lingo, RE style.  IMHO, Surly lacks enough Surliness.  :icon_mrgreen:

Socrates is a PUKE FACTORY.  The VOMIT coming off his keyboard will make you SICK.

I hope this makes it clear to the newbies.

RE

Fell free to check out my latest for surliness. And I haven't even brought out the fastball yet.
MKing is no Smokey.
“The old world is dying, and the New World struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters.”

 

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