AuthorTopic: Remember  (Read 23561 times)

Offline WHD

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Re: Remember
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2013, 06:52:38 PM »

Quote
But no estimates for the casualty projections for the invasion....why would such things even be made if everyone believed your story? Easy...you didn't tell the whole story, only the part related to survivor and winners guilt. Certainly someone as objective as you should have brought that up, unless of course you are afraid of the actual facts of what was being discussed at the time versus your one sided version? Apparently not everyone was standing around with their thumb up their asses suffering from "wishful thinking" about what the Japanese maybe, sorta, might, do.

So drop some nukes on women, children and old people. That'll show 'em.

Fuck you, MKing.  :( I think you will use that same rational for drone strikes and the like, here in America. 'May the most rapacious bastard win.'  What do you suppose Socrates would have to say about that? Where is Plato's  dialogue on the virtue of annihilating civilian populations, or the virtue of empire at all costs?

Sit on the tip of an upright warhead, troll. See how it feels.

WHD

Offline agelbert

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WHD
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2013, 07:49:48 PM »
WHD,
If you want to have a little fun with MKing, ask him how he would do in the Prisoner's dilemma?

It should be most entertaining. Don't forget to ask him to answer what he would decide in 5 consecutive iterations of the Prisoner's Dilemma.  :icon_mrgreen:


Quote
The normal game is shown below:



                              Prisoner B stays silent (cooperates)        Prisoner B betrays (defects)


Prisoner A stays silent (cooperates)
Each serves 1 year                Prisoner A: 3 years
                                                                                                         Prisoner B: goes free

Prisoner A betrays (defects) Prisoner A: goes free                       Each serves 2 years
                                         Prisoner B: 3 years


Here, regardless of what the other decides, each prisoner gets a higher pay-off by betraying the other ("defecting").

The reasoning involves an argument by dilemma:

B will either cooperate or defect.

If B cooperates, A should defect, since going free is better than serving 1 year.

If B defects, A should also defect, since serving 2 years is better than serving 3. So either way, A should defect. Parallel reasoning will show that B should defect.

In traditional game theory, some very restrictive assumptions on prisoner behaviour are made.

It is assumed that both understand the nature of the game, and that despite being members of the same gang, they have no loyalty to each other and will have no opportunity for retribution or reward outside the game.

Agelbert note: I.E. The prisoners are conscience FREE and quite RAPACIOUS! :evil4:

Most importantly, a very narrow interpretation of "rationality" is applied in defining the decision-making strategies of the prisoners.

Given these conditions and the payoffs above, prisoner A will betray prisoner B.

The game is symmetric, so Prisoner B should act the same way. Since both "rationally" decide to defect, each receives a lower reward than if both were to stay quiet.

Traditional game theory results in both players being worse off than if each chose to lessen the sentence of his accomplice at the cost of spending more time in jail himself.
[/color]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma

According to OUR Government and the Rand Corporation "rationalist", cold blooded, dispassionate, 'winning is all that counts' view of what DEFINES a RATIONAL, SUCCESSFULLY COMPETITIVE HUMAN BEING (Wall Street and Freud agree!), the above behavior is A-OKAY. The prisoners are NOT EXPECTED TO BE ALTRUISTIC and therefore will always end up serving more time than if the both had blindly trusted the other.

 
Leges         Sine    Moribus      Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

Offline RE

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Re: Remember
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2013, 08:11:56 PM »

Damn right there was causal correlation. Damn right September 2 was picked as the day, and by those who were THERE, on the side doing the surrendering, and it had nothing to do with the guilt ridden shoulda/woulda/coulda revisionist rewrite by the victors after the fact, who can only discuss what MIGHT have happened, versus what DID.

The thing I like about Socrates' posting is that he can accomplish what I never could, convincing Surly that the reintroduction of the Guillotine would be a good idea.  :icon_sunny:

Socrates appears at 2:05 in this video.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/lo5BBHtn4tM?feature=player_detailpage" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/lo5BBHtn4tM?feature=player_detailpage</a>

RE
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Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: Remember
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2013, 08:14:36 PM »
There was an interesting competition done vis-a-vis the prisoner's dilemma.  They had different programs compete against each other repeatedly, and it knew the identity of the other program and the result.  The one that was most successful?  Tit-for-Tat.  It always cooperated with another program the first time it encountered it ("Do unto others....") and subsequently always made the choice that the other program had made previously ("Eye for an eye....").
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline WHD

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Re: Remember
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2013, 08:23:10 PM »

Damn right there was causal correlation. Damn right September 2 was picked as the day, and by those who were THERE, on the side doing the surrendering, and it had nothing to do with the guilt ridden shoulda/woulda/coulda revisionist rewrite by the victors after the fact, who can only discuss what MIGHT have happened, versus what DID.

The thing I like about Socrates' posting is that he can accomplish what I never could, convincing Surly that the reintroduction of the Guillotine would be a good idea.  :icon_sunny:

Socrates appears at 2:05 in this video.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/lo5BBHtn4tM?feature=player_detailpage" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/lo5BBHtn4tM?feature=player_detailpage</a>

RE

gross.  :P

Offline RE

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Re: Remember
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2013, 08:34:33 PM »

gross.  :P

Gross is relative.

Below is REALLY GROSS.












RE
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Offline agelbert

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Re: Remember
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2013, 08:58:01 PM »
Quote
There was an interesting competition done vis-a-vis the prisoner's dilemma.  They had different programs compete against each other repeatedly, and it knew the identity of the other program and the result.  The one that was most successful?  Tit-for-Tat.  It always cooperated with another program the first time it encountered it ("Do unto others....") and subsequently always made the choice that the other program had made previously ("Eye for an eye....").

What about real people playing it?

Our government doesn't think a rational being is anything but automatically selfish. I can understand the one prisoner that KNOWS the other guy is going to remain silent deciding to ALSO remain silent. But neither of them KNOW that. The game theory assumption is that an average human is quite prone to give the other THIS:



Amorphophallus Titanium  :evil4:
Leges         Sine    Moribus      Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

Offline WHD

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Re: Remember
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2013, 08:58:43 PM »
RE,

Touche'  :'(

WHD
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 09:00:16 PM by WHD »

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: Remember
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2013, 09:50:56 PM »
What about real people playing it?

Our government doesn't think a rational being is anything but automatically selfish. I can understand the one prisoner that KNOWS the other guy is going to remain silent deciding to ALSO remain silent. But neither of them KNOW that. The game theory assumption is that an average human is quite prone to give the other THIS:
This is part of the reason people join gangs; it changes the payoff matrix.  If both prisoners are part of the same gang, now the guy who squeals no longer gets off; he either dies or has to go into the witness protection program.
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline Surly1

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Re: Remember
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2013, 06:10:46 AM »
Quote
Thanks for the history Surley. And for proving my point. Nowhere in there does it say the Japanese were preparing for a September 2 surrender party, just maybe they would, maybe they could, some Americans figured they might.

But no estimates for the casualty projections for the invasion....why would such things even be made if everyone believed your story? Easy...you didn't tell the whole story, only the part related to survivor and winners guilt. Certainly someone as objective as you should have brought that up, unless of course you are afraid of the actual facts of what was being discussed at the time versus your one sided version? Apparently not everyone was standing around with their thumb up their asses suffering from "wishful thinking" about what the Japanese maybe, sorta, might, do.


Afraid of nothing, especially teabagger trolls. As you will see. Keep your left up.


Quote
You want to pretend Operation Ketsu-Go wasn't being dreamed up? Discussed? Of course you do, because you only want a perspective which verifies your preconceived notions. Sorry Surly1.

Not at all. Let's review the bidding on Ketsu-Go.

For those light on history, Ketsu-Go was the plan developed by the Japanese High Command to defend the Japanese mainland. Near the end of 1944, the Japanese high command took stock. They had lost a succession of naval battles, including losing the Mariana Islands and the Battle of the Philippine Sea, at a high cost of men and materiel not easily replaced. Japan's planners realized that the decisive battle was likely to be fought on Japan's main islands. They reasoned well and planned accordingly. Sources say that Japanese strategists predicted correctly that Americans would assault Iwo Jima and then Okinawa, where the Japanese hoped fierce resistance would force a negotiated peace. The Japanese also prepared for an invasion of Japan from Okinawa. American fighter planes' range indicated where the landing would be -- on the island of Kyushu, and from there on to Tokyo. The Japanese called this plan Ketsu-Go, which I am unable to translate, but which either seems to mean "conclusion" and/or "a bite on the ass."

Quote
Japan was finished as a warmaking nation, in spite of its four million men still under arms. But...Japan was not going to quit. Despite the fact that she was militarily finished, Japan's leaders were going to fight right on. To not lose "face" was more important than hundreds and hundreds of thousands of lives. And the people concurred, in silence, without protest. To continue was no longer a question of Japanese military thinking, it was an aspect of Japanese culture and psychology.

- James Jones, WWII

By spring 1945, the emperor had his doubts. In Japan, the emperor's role was to sanction and ratify the government's unanimous decisions. In spite of the fact that the emperor had ratified this plan twice, in June 1945, both the emperor and his chief adviser, Marquis Koichi Kido, began to seek a diplomatic solution, asking the Soviet Union to mediate an end to the war. The emperor and his war cabinet also were also obliged to face facts, including reports that doubted Japan's ability to continue the war. One report stressed the depletion of Japanese industry, food was short, and a low fall rice harvest could mean mass starvation, and local police were concerned about popular unrest. Other reports said the Imperial Navy was done and the Imperial Army in China depleted, and busy with resistance forces. A historian, Edward Drea, observed that "The extremity of their situation actually propels them to seek a decisive battle before their condition becomes so hapless, they can't even do that."

Two weeks later, on June 22, the emperor did something highly unusual. He opened a conference with his war cabinet by announcing he wanted to send a special envoy to Moscow. The war cabinet agreed for different reasons. The peace faction hoped it would lead to peace; The hard-liners hoped it would keep the Soviet Union from declaring war. They clearly didn't read Stalin very well.

On July 27,  Japan's government ignored an Allied ultimatum from Potsdam, warning of "prompt and utter destruction" unless it surrendered unconditionally, it was still waiting to hear back from Uncle Joe. The Japanese were in the initial phases of planning Ketsu-go, and it may have been unclear to them whether they could enact the preparation and training phases in time.

Does this add to the record and consider Ketsu-go in context?


Quote
The beauty of reality is that even a lopsided censorship of history and careful assembly of only those wishing/hoping/guiltily wanting something else pales into insignificance in the face of reality.
//
Next time try not to give away your natural bias by highlighting only things supporting your view, it comes across as less "true believer" if you at least try to head off the obvious riposte. Not that it matters in this case, but you could have least tried to fire off a synapse or two on your own.

Lopsided censorship? I certainly understand how evidence one as fully invested in the received wisdom and official dogma as you.

For my part, I rely on the testimony of those who were there, rather than the musings of internet trolls who know only what they have been taught to parrot. Even Gen. George Marshall, who agreed with Truman's decision, did so but said that it was a political rather than a military decision.I also note that the only "lives" that figure into your calculus are American lives. Yes, I know that in the throes of prosecuting a war, from the US those are the only lives that matter. Yet there are such things as unintended consequences to our decisions. I believe it to be disingenuous in the extreme to ignore the precedent set by the use of this weapon, especially when strong and respected voices within the administration were counseling otherwise. Use of Atomic weapons on Hiroshima and nagasaki has been debated since we dropped those bombs. I am willing to believe that by this opening Pandora's box, history will judge us harshly.

Let's now resume our regularly scheduled programming, where you shill for the energy extraction industries and otherwise serve Mammon with a posture of a bended knee, head tilted back, lips parted, ready to accept the Koch.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline RE

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The Hiroshima Myth. Unaccountable War Crimes and the Lies of US Military History

By Dr. Gary G. Kohls
Global Research, July 31, 2013
Region: Asia
Theme: Crimes against Humanity
In-depth Report: Nuclear War


This coming Tuesday, August 6, 2013, is the 68th anniversary of the bombing of Hiroshima, the whole truth of which has been heavily censored and mythologized ever since war-weary Americans celebrated V-J Day 10 days later.

In the pitiful history lessons that were taught by my uninspired/bored history teachers (which seemed to be mostly jocks) came from patriotic and highly censored books where everything the British and US military ever did in war time was honorable and self-sacrificing and everything their opponents did was barbaric. Everybody in my graduating class of 26 swallowed the post-war propaganda in our history books. It was from these books that we learned about the “glorious” end of the war against Japan.

Of course, I now know that I had been given false information, orchestrated by war-justifying militarists (and assorted uber-patiotic historians) starting with General Douglas MacArthur. MacArthur successfully imposed total censorship of what really happened at Ground Zero. One of his first acts after taking over as viceroy of Japan was to confiscate and/or destroy all the photographic evidence documenting the horrors of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

 Back in 1995, the Smithsonian Institution was preparing to correct some the 50-year-old pseudo-patriotic myths by staging an honest, historically-accurate display dealing with the atomic bombings. Following the vehement, orchestrated, reactionary outrage emanating from right-wing veterans groups and other patriot groups (including Newt Gingrich’s GOP-dominated Congress that threatened to stop federal funding of the Institute), the Smithsonian was forced to censor-out all of the unwelcome but contextually important parts of the story. So again we had another example of politically-motivated groups heavily altering real history because they were afraid of revealing “unpatriotic” historical truths that might shake the confidence of average Americans in our leaders, sort of like the near-total media black-out about the controlled demolitions of the three World Trade Center buildings on 9/11/01 that killed thousands of innocent people and unleashed the dogs of war against innocents in Afghanistan (explore  www.ae911truth.org for the  documentation of that assertion).


Nagasaki on August 9, 1945

The Smithsonian historians did have a gun to their heads, of course, but in the melee, the corporate-controlled mainstream media – and therefore the public – failed to learn an important historical point, and that is this: The war could have ended in the spring of 1945 without the summer atomic bombs, and therefore there might have been no Okinawa bloodbath for thousands of American Marines and soldiers. Also there would have been no need for an American land invasion of Japan – the basis of the subsequent propaganda campaign that justified the use of atomic weapons on defenseless civilian populations and meets the definition of an international war crime and a crime against humanity.

American intelligence, with the full knowledge of President Truman’s administration, was aware of Japan’s desperate search for ways to honorably surrender months before Truman gave the fateful order to incinerate Hiroshima.

 Intelligence data, revealed in the 1980s, showed that the contingency plans for a large-scale US invasion (planned for no sooner than November 1, 1945) would have been unnecessary. Japan was working on peace negotiations through its Moscow ambassador as early as April of 1945. Truman knew of these developments because the US had broken the Japanese code years earlier, and all of Japan’s military and diplomatic messages were being intercepted. On July 13, 1945, Foreign Minister Togo said: “Unconditional surrender (giving up all sovereignty, especially deposing the Emperor) is the only obstacle to peace.”

Truman and his advisors knew about these efforts, and the war could have ended through diplomacy by simply conceding a post-war figurehead position for the emperor Hirohito – who was regarded as a deity in Japan. That reasonable concession was – seemingly illogically – refused by the US in their demands for unconditional surrender, initially demanded at the 1943 Casablanca Conference between Roosevelt and Churchill and reiterated at the Potsdam Conference between Truman, Churchill and Stalin. Still, the Japanese continued searching for an honorable peace through negotiations.

 Even Secretary of War Henry Stimson, said: “the true question was not whether surrender could have been achieved without the use of the bomb but whether a different diplomatic and military course would have led to an earlier surrender. A large segment of the Japanese cabinet was ready in the spring of 1945 to accept substantially the same terms as those finally agreed on.” In other words, Stimson felt that the US had unnecessarily prolonged the war.

After Japan did surrender, MacArthur allowed the emperor to remain in place as spiritual head of Japan, the very condition that coerced the Japanese leadership to refuse to accept the humiliating “unconditional surrender” terms.

So the two essential questions that need answering to comprehend what was going on behind the scenes are these:

1) Why did the US refuse to accept Japan’s only demand concerning their surrender (the retention of the emperor) and

2) why were the atomic bombs used when victory in the Pacific was already a certainty?

 Shortly after WWII, military analyst Hanson Baldwin wrote:

    “The Japanese, in a military sense, were in a hopeless strategic situation by the time the Potsdam Declaration (insisting on Japan’s unconditional surrender) was made on July 26, 1945.”

Admiral William Leahy, top military aide to President Truman, said in his war memoirs, I Was There:

    “It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons. My own feeling is that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages.”

And General Dwight D. Eisenhower, in a personal visit to President Truman a couple of weeks before the bombings, urged him not to use the atomic bombs. Eisenhower said  (in a 1963 interview in  Newsweek):

    “It wasn’t necessary to hit them with that awful thing . . . to use the atomic bomb, to kill and terrorize civilians, without even attempting [negotiations], was a double crime.”

There are a number of factors that contributed to the Truman administration’s decision to use the bombs.

1) The US had made a huge investment in time, mind and money (a massive 2 billion in 1940 dollars) to produce three bombs, and there was no inclination – and no guts – to stop the momentum.

2) The US military and political leadership – as did many ordinary Americans – had a tremendous appetite for revenge because of Pearl Harbor. Mercy wasn’t in the mindset of the US military or the war-weary populace, and the missions against Hiroshima and Nagasaki were accepted – no questions asked – by most of those folks who only knew the sanitized, national security version of events.

3) The fissionable material in Hiroshima’s bomb was uranium. The Nagasaki bomb was a plutonium bomb. Scientific curiosity was a significant factor that pushed the project to its completion. The Manhattan Project scientists (and the US Army director of the project, General Leslie Groves) were curious about “what would happen if an entire city was leveled by a single uranium bomb?” “What about a plutonium bomb?”

The decision to use both bombs had been made well in advance of August 1945. Accepting the surrender of Japan was not an option if the science experiment was to go ahead. Of course the three-day interval between the two bombs was unconscionably short if the Hiroshima bomb was designed to coerce immediate surrender. Japan’s communications and transportation capabilities were in shambles, and no one, not even the US military, much less the Japanese high command, fully understood what had happened at Hiroshima. (The Manhattan Project was so top secret that even Douglas MacArthur, commanding general of the entire Pacific theatre, had been kept out of the loop until five days before Hiroshima.)

4) The Russians had proclaimed their intent to enter the war with Japan 90 days after V-E Day (Victory in Europe Day, May 8), which would have been Aug. 8, two days after Hiroshima was bombed. Indeed, Russia did declare war on Japan on August 8 and was advancing eastward across Manchuria when Nagasaki was incinerated. The US didn’t want Japan surrendering to Russia or sharing the spoils of war.

Russia was soon to be the only other superpower – and a future enemy – so the first nuclear threat “messages” of the Cold War were sent. Russia indeed received far less of the spoils of war than they had anticipated, and the two superpowers were instantly mired in the Cold War stalemate that led to the unaffordable nuclear arms race and the possibility of total extinction of the human race. What did happen was the mutual moral and financial bankruptcies of both nations that occurred over the next couple of generations of military madness.

An estimated 80,000 innocent civilians, plus 20,000 weaponless young Japanese conscripts died instantly in the Hiroshima bombing. Hundreds of thousands more suffered slow deaths from agonizing burns, radiation sickness, leukemias, anemias and untreatable infections for the rest of their shortened lives. Generations of the survivor’s progeny were also afflicted with horrible radiation-induced illnesses, cancers and premature deaths, still going on to this very hour.

  Another shameful reality that has been covered up is the fact that 12 American Navy pilots, their existence well known to the US command, were instantly incinerated in the Hiroshima jail on the fateful day

So the official War Department-approved version of the end of the war in the Pacific contained a new batch of myths that took their places among the long lists of myths that Americans are continuously fed by our corporate, military, political and media opinion leaders, the gruesomeness of war being changed to glorification in the process. Among the other censored out realities include what really happened in the US military invasions and occupations of the countries of North Korea, Iran, Viet Nam, Laos, Cambodia, Lebanon, Granada, Panama, the Philippines, Chile, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Honduras, Haiti, Colombia, Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc, etc. This list doesn’t cover the uncountable secret Pentagon/CIA covert operations and assassination plots in the rest of the world, where as many as150 nations contain American military bases (permission lavishly paid for by bribery or threats of economic sanctions).

But somehow most of us still hang on to our shaky “my country right or wrong” patriotism, desperately wanting to believe the cunningly-orchestrated myths that say that the war-profiteering multibillionaire corporate elite (and their politicians, military leaders and media talking heads who are in their employ) only work for peace, justice, equality, liberty and “making the world safe” for predatory capitalism.

While it is true that the US military has faced down the occasional despot, with necessary sacrifice from dead and mortally-wounded (in body, mind and spirit) American soldiers and veterans, more often than not the rationalization for going to war are the same as those of the “godless communists”, the anti-American “insurgents” and “freedom fighters” who want to convince us Yankees to just go home where we belong.

August 6 and 9, 1945 are just two more examples of the brain-washing that goes on in all “total war” political agendas, which are always accompanied by the inevitable human slaughter that is euphemistically labeled “collateral damage” or “friendly fire”.

It might already be too late to rescue and resuscitate the humanitarian, peacemaking America that we used to know and love. It might be too late to effectively confront the corporate hijacking of liberal democracy in America. It might be too late to successfully bring down the arrogant and greedy ruling elites who are selfishly dragging our world down the road to our destruction. The rolling coup d’etat of what I call Friendly American Fascism may have already accomplished its goals.

  But there may still be some hope. Rather than being silent about the wars that the war-mongers are provoking all over the planet (with the very willing assistance of the Pentagon, the weapons industry and their lapdogs in Congress), people of conscience need to start learning the whole truth of history, despite the discomfort we will feel (cognitive dissonance) when the truth can’t be ignored any more.

We need to start owning up to America’s uncountable war crimes that have been orchestrated in our names. And then we need to go to the streets, publicly protesting and courageously refusing to cooperate with those who are transforming America into a criminal rogue nation that will eventually be targeted for downfall by its billions of suffering victims outside our borders, similar to what happened to Nazi Germany and Fascist Japan.

Doing what is right for the whole of humanity for a change, rather than just doing what is profitable or advantageous for our over-privileged, over-consumptive and unsustainable American way of life, would be real honor, real patriotism and an essential start toward real peace.
Save As Many As You Can

Offline WHD

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Re: Remember
« Reply #41 on: August 10, 2013, 08:34:58 PM »
Quote
Quote from: WHD on August 09, 2013, 06:52:38 PM


    Quote
MKing:
        But no estimates for the casualty projections for the invasion....why would such things even be made if everyone believed your story? Easy...you didn't tell the whole story, only the part related to survivor and winners guilt. Certainly someone as objective as you should have brought that up, unless of course you are afraid of the actual facts of what was being discussed at the time versus your one sided version? Apparently not everyone was standing around with their thumb up their asses suffering from "wishful thinking" about what the Japanese maybe, sorta, might, do.

WHD:
    So drop some nukes on women, children and old people. That'll show 'em.

MKing:
Pretty much.

'Nuff said, there.


Quote
    Fuck you, MKing.  :( I think you will use that same rational for drone strikes and the like, here in America. 'May the most rapacious bastard win.'

MKing:
Oh goodness me, more than a decade in day to day drilling and operations of the oilfield and I have never heard such language! What are you, 12?

Actually, I'm 40, and anytime you want to have a dancing contest, or a singing contest, or a baseball throwing contest, or a hockey skating contest, or a house building contest, or a food growing contest, or a swearing contest, or a sword fighting contest (we'll use wood swords so I don't kill you), or even bowling, I'm game.  ;D

Did you work with churchboys? I hear a bulk of them are meth addicts at this point.  :exp-evil:


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I am not aware of what Socrates might think on the topic of thinking that a military exists

Oh, I know it's out of context, but it's so choice! LOL

Quote
As far as annihilating civilian populations, it is convenient how your wrath appears only pointed at the Americans, versus say the Japanese at Nanking, the Romans and Carthage, and the hundreds of other examples of how the real world works across geography, culture and time.

Well, I am an American, not Japanese or Roman or Carthaginian. What'r u?

Quote
It is called WAR for a reason. Bad things happen during wars. All wars. Bad things are part and parcel of war. And WWII wasn't trying to sustain an empire for the US, you  do know that, right? You can equate a different kind of warfare, unmanned drones, undoubtedly with a complex and near incoherent convolution of random facts and speculation, with the fading days of an American Empire if you ignore the fact that America isn't an empire, and disproves those who want to claim it is one every time they take over a country and then have the audacity to hand it back to its rightful owners, but that angle doesn't tend to hold together very well either.

Better fits the definition of economic hegemony I suppose. Empire doesn't work.

Since you seem to love war so much then, does that make you a bad person? LOL So do you suppose any empire isn't going to pursue, achieve and attempt to maintain economic hegemony? Does an empire depose democratically elected heads of non-client states, replacing as head of new client state, puppet strong man? Or is that an economic hegemon? Wait?  :icon_scratch:

Like I said before, and I think anyone can figure out, you don't have any difficulty justifying dropping bombs on kids, babies, etc. Troll.

WHD










Offline Surly1

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The Hiroshima Myth. Unaccountable War Crimes and the Lies of US Military History

By Dr. Gary G. Kohls
Global Research, July 31, 2013
Region: Asia
Theme: Crimes against Humanity
In-depth Report: Nuclear War
Russia indeed received far less of the spoils of war than they had anticipated, and the two superpowers were instantly mired in the Cold War stalemate that led to the unaffordable nuclear arms race and the possibility of total extinction of the human race. What did happen was the mutual moral and financial bankruptcies of both nations that occurred over the next couple of generations of military madness.

An estimated 80,000 innocent civilians, plus 20,000 weaponless young Japanese conscripts died instantly in the Hiroshima bombing. Hundreds of thousands more suffered slow deaths from agonizing burns, radiation sickness, leukemias, anemias and untreatable infections for the rest of their shortened lives. Generations of the survivor’s progeny were also afflicted with horrible radiation-induced illnesses, cancers and premature deaths, still going on to this very hour.

  Another shameful reality that has been covered up is the fact that 12 American Navy pilots, their existence well known to the US command, were instantly incinerated in the Hiroshima jail on the fateful day

So the official War Department-approved version of the end of the war in the Pacific contained a new batch of myths that took their places among the long lists of myths that Americans are continuously fed by our corporate, military, political and media opinion leaders, the gruesomeness of war being changed to glorification in the process. Among the other censored out realities include what really happened in the US military invasions and occupations of the countries of North Korea, Iran, Viet Nam, Laos, Cambodia, Lebanon, Granada, Panama, the Philippines, Chile, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Honduras, Haiti, Colombia, Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc, etc. This list doesn’t cover the uncountable secret Pentagon/CIA covert operations and assassination plots in the rest of the world, where as many as150 nations contain American military bases (permission lavishly paid for by bribery or threats of economic sanctions).

But somehow most of us still hang on to our shaky “my country right or wrong” patriotism, desperately wanting to believe the cunningly-orchestrated myths that say that the war-profiteering multibillionaire corporate elite (and their politicians, military leaders and media talking heads who are in their employ) only work for peace, justice, equality, liberty and “making the world safe” for predatory capitalism.

While it is true that the US military has faced down the occasional despot, with necessary sacrifice from dead and mortally-wounded (in body, mind and spirit) American soldiers and veterans, more often than not the rationalization for going to war are the same as those of the “godless communists”, the anti-American “insurgents” and “freedom fighters” who want to convince us Yankees to just go home where we belong.

August 6 and 9, 1945 are just two more examples of the brain-washing that goes on in all “total war” political agendas, which are always accompanied by the inevitable human slaughter that is euphemistically labeled “collateral damage” or “friendly fire”.

It might already be too late to rescue and resuscitate the humanitarian, peacemaking America that we used to know and love. It might be too late to effectively confront the corporate hijacking of liberal democracy in America. It might be too late to successfully bring down the arrogant and greedy ruling elites who are selfishly dragging our world down the road to our destruction. The rolling coup d’etat of what I call Friendly American Fascism may have already accomplished its goals.

Terrific article, RE. Hadn't seen it.
Really encapsulates the consequences, intended or otherwise, of that decision.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline WHD

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Re: Remember
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2013, 08:30:00 AM »
Quote
I defend nothing but reality Surly1.

Far as I can tell, you have done nothing here but defend as a means to perpetuate the "reality" of the killing of women, children and old people, and the rape of the planet.

WHD

Offline WHD

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Re: Remember
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2013, 09:40:51 AM »
Far as I can tell, you have done nothing here but defend as a means to perpetuate the "reality" of the killing of women, children and old people, and the rape of the planet.

If you really mean that, then thank you for providing a real world example of why some people have only their labor to sell.

Thank you, MKing, for providing for us a real world example of one who is willing to sell his soul.

WHD

 

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