AuthorTopic: Meanwhile back at the 'stead  (Read 206004 times)

Offline RE

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Battery Making
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2013, 05:12:20 PM »
Likewise, I have to get  batteries...but that needs to wait...batteries should always be the LAST item for an off-grid project, because as soon as you get them, you have to start feeding them...unless you can get them dry, which you used to be able to do, but not so much anymore.

Add this to your Projects from Windpower.org.  :icon_sunny:

How to Make Your Own Batteries


Looks like an Eddie Project to me!

Quote
Have you ever wanted to make your own homemade lead acid battery? Lead acid batteries were invented in 1912 and in essence haven't changed much since. Two plates of lead immersed in 30% sulphuric acid produce about 2V of electric potential after being charged at 2.15V or more. The greater the surface area, the greater the maximum current that can be taking in during charging, and given out by the battery cell. A lead acid cell is typically about 70% efficient - to get 100 AmpHours out you need to put 143 AmpHours in. At room temperature, charging a cell below 2.25V is 'safe' in that it will not cause gassing - at higher voltages water is split into hyrdogen and oxygen gasses. Deep cycle batteries are ideally charged at about 2.5V per cell. Forming the plates is the process of using crystal formation to roughen the surface of the plates, greatly increasing the surface area exposed to the electrolyte.

Thin plates very close together give the best maximum current, but are subject to distortion under heavy current, and corrode away more easily. Thick plates give a long life...

You might also look into buying a couple of these:

Quote



BATTERY SURRETTE 2V/3435 SOLAR BATTERY 2-YS-31PS
Renewable Batteries
Detailed Specifications for this Item

BATTERY SURRETTE 2V/3435 SOLAR BATTERY 2-YS-31PS

Item #: 2-YS-31PS
   
The Rolls Surrette 2-YS-31PS (2YS31PS) solar deep cycle battery is designed specifically for renewable energy applications and is backed by a 10 year warranty (3 year replacement, 7 years prorated) with an expected lifespan of 15-20 years.

The 2-YS-31PS (2YS31PS) is a modular construction 2-volt, dual container battery based on the high capacity YS plate. This unique battery design has each cell self-contained in a high temperature-retardant, durable polypropylene case. The outer container is made of high-density unbreakable polyethylene, providing double protection against breakage and leakage. Cell replacement is easy and quick using bolt-on connectors-allowing the battery to be assembled or repaired on location. These are the biggest and best batteries Rolls Surrette makes for the renewable market. The Rolls Surrette 2-YS-31PS (2YS31PS) battery is rated for 3300 cycles at a 50% depth of discharge.

Ideal for a larger battery bank of 2349AH at 48VDC utilizing 24 batteries. Recommended maximum battery bank size is 7047AH at 48VDC

Your Price:    $1,284.00

RE
Save As Many As You Can

Offline Eddie

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Re: Meanwhile back at the 'stead
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2013, 06:00:31 PM »
JD

Got an 11 hp Predator, on sale for $299, minus the 25% discount online coupon...it was less than $250 out the door. Gotta love those Chinese knock-offs. I'm told that the Harbor Freight engines are IDENTICAL to Honda...except that they are a MIRROR IMAGE, so no royalties paid. Parts interchange for the most part.

So now I need a big enough pulley to spin the Zena at 6500 rpm or higher, nearly double the 3600 max of the engine. The little frame from theepicenter.com looks like it will work perfectly, bolt holes line up, clearance looks good. I still have to check to make sure I can get the correct rotation on the Zena. I'll mount the engine on some 4X4's.

RE

Those Rolls Surette batteries are the shit. I already had my eye on them because of the double case and the 15-20 year expected life...far higher than just about any other lead acid battery. But I need 12 of the 2V ones minimum to build my 24V string. That's roughly 800 amp hours at the 5hr rate. Cost? About 15K. Almost 4 times the cost of equivalent golf cart batteries...but they sure are nice.

What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline RE

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Hydrogen Fuel Cell for the Toothstead
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2013, 10:19:24 PM »
Those Rolls Surette batteries are the shit. I already had my eye on them because of the double case and the 15-20 year expected life...far higher than just about any other lead acid battery. But I need 12 of the 2V ones minimum to build my 24V string. That's roughly 800 amp hours at the 5hr rate. Cost? About 15K. Almost 4 times the cost of equivalent golf cart batteries...but they sure are nice.

How about going with a Hydrogen Fuel Cell Generator and Electrolysis setup and store the Hydrogen in tanks?

Ballard 5KW Fuel Cell Generator




Perkin Elmer H2 Generator

No Maintenace H2 Generators
H2HydrogenGenerators.jpg

    Flow rate: > 99.9999% H2 / 0 - 10 bar
    Employ the latest electrolytic membrane technology (10 bar resistance)
    Include no maintenance auto-drying technology
    250 cc/min and 500 cc/min models are designed with cascading capability up to ten units
    Ideal as a feed gas for all GC detectors
    Provide auto shut-off for leak and water-off procedure feature for safety
    Offer audible alarms for variable operating conditions
    Fully supported by the PerkinElmer Service Organization
    Available in 5 models (see below)

This is the real CLASS for Electric Storage and Generation, quiet and clean too!

You can cut costs by building your own electrolysis setup, lots of YouTube instructionals for that.

If you call Ballard for Pricing, let us know how much the 5Kw unit costs.

RE

Save As Many As You Can

Offline Eddie

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Re: Meanwhile back at the 'stead
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2013, 05:36:23 AM »
Promising, but crazy expensive and too new for me to know much about. I saw a 100W device for sale for over $1600. For the moment, batteries are still the (relatively) low cost  storage solution available for home-made electricity. Unless you're a multinational corporation, of course.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Eddie

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Re: Making your own batteries
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2013, 06:49:04 AM »
A very interesting thought problem ( to someone like me, anyway) is "How would you, or could you, make your own batteries in a post-collapse, salvage economy world?"

A very short visit down history lane teaches us that both sulfuric acid and nitric acid are some of the most essential building blocks in the chemistry set that gave us the modern world. Not only is sulfuric acid the essential electrolyte for lead acid batteries, but it is used in the manufacture of both black powder and the more modern cordite powder we use in small arms ammunition.

Interesting to me how it can be used for powerful purposes, both peaceful and warlike.

I assume that the primary source of lead in a post-collapse world would be salvage. But H2SO4 would have to be produced in the medieval way, by burning sulfur with salt peter in the presence of steam. Salt peter can be produced from sources like guano, manure, or animal urine.

But sulfur is hard to come by. The most abundant source would be from calcium sulfate, which could be salvaged from...drywall. But it's complicated to make sulfur from calcium sulfate. You have to first turn it into sulfur dioxide and lime (also very useful)  by burning it in a reducing environment, usually done with (you guessed it) fossil fuels. You could probably do it with wood, though, in a retort.

The hard (maybe too hard) part comes at the end. To turn sulfur dioxide into elemental sulfur requires (damn) sulfuric acid...and a catalyst (double damn).

Work on that one, Godfather. It's a worthy pursuit. Meanwhile, maybe we can find some sulfur that fell off a rail car, beside the tracks.

I was once a freshman chemistry TA. Got a B.S. in chemistry too. Not that I learned much.



« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 12:37:04 PM by Eddie »
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Eddie

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Re:More on the Zena Welder
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2013, 09:52:05 AM »
Turns out that Zenas are built to rotate clockwise...most engines rotate counterclockwise...which creates a small problem with the way I wanted to mount the little welder/generator. Looks like the easiest fix is to ship the unit back to the manufacturer for a $100 mod, which mainly consists of installing a different fan, which also requires a longer shaft. Not a terrible issue, but I assume it will take a few weeks. I'll get it boxed and shipped before I leave town.

This is not a problem for those mounting a Zena on a truck or tractor...but if you want to run one off a small engine...get the CCW (actually bi-rotational) model in the first place.

One other issue, too. As I said before, it looked to me like the Zena requires a battery in its circuit..Called the manufacturer...turns out this is correct. So you need to charge said battery if you don't intend to keep it on a trickle charger all the time.

Too accomplish this, you need a voltage regulator (also supplied by Zena, for additional cost). I always intended to get a regulator anyway, since half of the purpose of the thing was to have a back-up generator. But the thing is that they have several different ones.

The best one they have ($275 worth) will charge either 12V or 24V, and it has a temp monitor that slows the unit down if it gets too hot...which won't happen unless you are attempting to charge a large battery bank (like my solar set-up, for instance). so I ordered one of those. The folks at Zena are good at figuring out exactly what you need, if you are smart enough to tell them what the unit will be used for.

So I can use the unit to charge the welder battery (12V) or, if needed, I can switch it to 24V and charge the off-grid bank, and it can run the 5-6 hrs it would take to recharge my (still hypothetical at the moment) 1000 AH bank of Rolls Surettes without danger of melting down from excess heat.

So...after the mod, I should be able to proceed as originally planned...and Zena is selling me the correct pulley to drive the welder, too, so I should only have to buy some bolts and washers and a drive belt.

The saga continues.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Snowleopard

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Re: Meanwhile back at the 'stead
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2013, 06:45:27 PM »
Those Rolls Surette batteries are the shit. I already had my eye on them because of the double case and the 15-20 year expected life...far higher than just about any other lead acid battery. But I need 12 of the 2V ones minimum to build my 24V string. That's roughly 800 amp hours at the 5hr rate. Cost? About 15K. Almost 4 times the cost of equivalent golf cart batteries...but they sure are nice.

Been looking at this battery problem myself.  Just getting started on the system research, but will probably end up with the cheapies, presuming i get that far!

I wonder if, compared to $uper lead acid batteries, one might be better off with nickel iron. Slightly le$$ and likely more lifetime. 

One foreign product example that looks reasonable - (not a recommendation):

http://ironedison.com/nickel-iron-ni-fe-battery

Only "Made in USA" company i could find is much more expensive,  looks hard to deal with, and quotes capacities in kwhrs (to confuse folks?):

 http://zappworks.com/battery_prices.htm

Any thoughts?
"A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest." -  Simon and Garfunkel

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: Making your own batteries
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2013, 06:48:19 PM »
A very interesting thought problem ( to someone like me, anyway) is "How would you, or could you, make your own batteries in a post-collapse, salvage economy world?"

A very short visit down history lane teaches us that both sulfuric acid and nitric acid are some of the most essential building blocks in the chemistry set that gave us the modern world. Not only is sulfuric acid the essential electrolyte for lead acid batteries, but it is used in the manufacture of both black powder and the more modern cordite powder we use in small arms ammunition.

Interesting to me how it can be used for powerful purposes, both peaceful and warlike.

I assume that the primary source of lead in a post-collapse world would be salvage. But H2SO4 would have to be produced in the medieval way, by burning sulfur with saltpeter in the presence of steam. Saltpeter can be produced from sources like guano, manure, or animal urine.
Whoa... slow down there, Eddie... I think you're way overcomplicating this... you're thinking like an industrialist... Nature make plenty of nitric and sulfuric acid on her own, those are the primary components of acid rain.  She can do the nitrogen oxides quite well with lightning flashes, she just needs a little help getting started with the sulfur oxides.  If you've got sulfur deposits to start with, great, but you don't need to make purified sulfur just to produce sulfuric acid.

My point is, you need to cut out as many steps as possible when you're going into a reduced-energy environment.
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline Eddie

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Re: Meanwhile back at the 'stead
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2013, 08:09:54 PM »
Those Rolls Surette batteries are the shit. I already had my eye on them because of the double case and the 15-20 year expected life...far higher than just about any other lead acid battery. But I need 12 of the 2V ones minimum to build my 24V string. That's roughly 800 amp hours at the 5hr rate. Cost? About 15K. Almost 4 times the cost of equivalent golf cart batteries...but they sure are nice.

Been looking at this battery problem myself.  Just getting started on the system research, but will probably end up with the cheapies, presuming i get that far!

I wonder if, compared to $uper lead acid batteries, one might be better off with nickel iron. Slightly le$$ and likely more lifetime. 

One foreign product example that looks reasonable - (not a recommendation):

http://ironedison.com/nickel-iron-ni-fe-battery

Only "Made in USA" company i could find is much more expensive,  looks hard to deal with, and quotes capacities in kwhrs (to confuse folks?):

 http://zappworks.com/battery_prices.htm

Any thoughts?

Nickel iron is the gold standard for off-grid batteries, but even more expensive than the Rolls Surettes. To compare apples to apples, look at the respective 5hr discharge rate. The Chinese batteries from beutilityfree.com are the least expensive...Zapps are substantially more as I recall.

Nickel iron batteries are hard to kill, from what I hear. They aren't the very best battery for any and all applications, but from my understanding, they probably are the best for off-grid systems if you can afford them. The plates in nickel iron batteries are not degraded by use...you supposedly only have to change electrolyte every 10-15 years, if they are properly maintained.

I was advised to start with golf cart batteries, because almost everyone ruins the first set of batteries they buy when they go off-grid. In the States, Sam's Club has the best price.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Eddie

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Re: Meanwhile back at the 'stead
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2013, 08:12:17 PM »
you're thinking like an industrialist..

I can't help it. It's my toilet training.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Eddie

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Re: Meanwhile back at the 'stead
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2013, 05:38:44 AM »


I learned a new word in my Permaculture Design Course....Picloram


Picloram is a systemic herbicide used for general woody plant control. It also controls a wide range of broad-leaved weeds, but most grasses are resistant. A chlorinated derivative of picolinic acid, picloram is in the pyridine family of herbicides.

Picloram can be sprayed on foliage, injected into plants, applied to cut surfaces, or placed at the base of the plant where it will leach to the roots. Once absorbed by the foliage, stem, or roots, picloram is transported throughout the plant.

Herbicides containing Picloram are sold under a variety of brand names. Dow Chemicals and now Dow AgroSciences sell herbicides containing it under the brand name Tordon.

During the Vietnam War, a mixture of picloram and other herbicides were combined to make Agent White (commercially available as Tordon 101) and Enhanced Agent Orange. Large quantities of these herbicides were sprayed by U. S. forces in areas where its long-term persistence was desirable, such as inland forests.

Picloram is the most persistent of its family of herbicides. It does not adhere to soil and so may leach to groundwater, and has in fact been detected there. It is degraded in soil and water mainly by microbes. Picloram has very little tendency to accumulate in aquatic life.

Gardeners who use dung as fertilizer should check to make certain that the animal source has not grazed on picloram treated hay, as the dung still has broadleaf killing potency.


Turns out that some unknown quantity of the Coastal Bermuda hay that folks buy to feed their horses is sprayed with this shit. It persists in soil for maybe 4-5 years. Certain garden veggies are particularly sensitive to it, including potatoes, tomatoes, and peas.

Obviously this is a potential problem with my Horseshit Project. And if I ever wanted to become a certified organic farm, the presence of this herbicide would disqualify my place, maybe permanently...I don't know.

The good news is that it doesn't affect corn, wheat, or grasses...so on areas that are designated for grass farming, the effects would be minimal. And it looks to me that by spreading the manure thinly and turning it with a disc, the sun would probably detoxify the manure in a few years.

You can test for  it by planting some pea plants in soil mixed with the suspect manure and comparing the seedlings with seedlings from a normal potting soil control. My first step is going to be that experiment. I hate to lose such a good source of carbon, especially after I've gone to such lengths to source the manure and get ready to haul it.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2013, 05:48:46 AM by Eddie »
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: Battery Making
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2013, 05:57:31 AM »


You might also look into buying a couple of these:

Quote



BATTERY SURRETTE 2V/3435 SOLAR BATTERY 2-YS-31PS
Renewable Batteries
Detailed Specifications for this Item

BATTERY SURRETTE 2V/3435 SOLAR BATTERY 2-YS-31PS

Item #: 2-YS-31PS
   
The Rolls Surrette 2-YS-31PS (2YS31PS) solar deep cycle battery is designed specifically for renewable energy applications and is backed by a 10 year warranty (3 year replacement, 7 years prorated) with an expected lifespan of 15-20 years.

The 2-YS-31PS (2YS31PS) is a modular construction 2-volt, dual container battery based on the high capacity YS plate. This unique battery design has each cell self-contained in a high temperature-retardant, durable polypropylene case. The outer container is made of high-density unbreakable polyethylene, providing double protection against breakage and leakage. Cell replacement is easy and quick using bolt-on connectors-allowing the battery to be assembled or repaired on location. These are the biggest and best batteries Rolls Surrette makes for the renewable market. The Rolls Surrette 2-YS-31PS (2YS31PS) battery is rated for 3300 cycles at a 50% depth of discharge.

Ideal for a larger battery bank of 2349AH at 48VDC utilizing 24 batteries. Recommended maximum battery bank size is 7047AH at 48VDC

Your Price:    $1,284.00

RE

Whats up working stiff city slickers?  :icon_mrgreen: :icon_sunny:

I have 6 of those 300lb 2v's which are "solid lead" wtf? :icon_scratch: plate and can be recond any number of times so can last forever. I have them and all the electronics mounted inside a shipping container so can not be stolen. The 8 panels are on top of the container roof stand up on an angle but I can drop them down flat and unseen. Meant to be good for a week of wet and cloudy weather running all house appliances.Will post the pics of the setup (eddie will have to stay sitting down for a while when he sees it or scare everyone around with a hardon.) It looks like the trunk of an after car on 'pimp my ride'!!!

The crazy thing is the laptop power supply does not like the output from that 3kw inverter and I have to go through a 300w little one from 2 x 12v (24v) regular size deep cycle batteries to power the thing im typing on.
ELEVATE YOUR GAME

Offline Eddie

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Re: Battery Making
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2013, 06:01:32 AM »
Out-fuckin'-standing!!!!

I want pics and details.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 06:09:19 AM by Eddie »
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: Solar Setup
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2013, 02:15:02 AM »
ok, im not good enough to find how to type under the pics, but below you see:

Yellow boxes contain 2volt batteries x 6 small wires record the temp and signal back to controllers. big wires obviously go from inverter.

Container is 20ft with 8x250w panels and room for 4 more if needed for EV needs depending on how often its driven and how far. These can tilt angle up or down, even lie flat to transport. Obviously it can be moved if you bring a 5 ton truck.

Big Grey box is the "TomahawkUSA" made in china 3000w inverter.On the right it has 3 AC outlets on left side u see a black and a red connection, thats neg and pos. all the functions and lights I dont need to know, just on, power save and off.
just below u see two big fat fuses.

3 smaller silver boxes are the solar to battery chargers. these read 13.5V during the day whirring away then are silent reading nothing at night. below those is a panel of trip switches like you normally find in a house. Unlike the meter box in your house this stuff gives you a headache from electromagnetic field in no time if you stay near it. Car radio doesnt work when you park next to it as shown.

The other pic shows the copper earth rod connected to container.

I have it in full sunlight morning to evening and facing due north for max performance. I hardly use any electricity, but its going to be the garage and charging station for a small electric car. More to come on that soon.

The panels are good for 15-20 yrs, the batteries can be reconditioned after about the same. You could theoretically keep the acid and distilled water to do that in there, and more panels as they are thin and flat and dont take up much room. There are racks set above all this for that purpose, but Im not going to that extreme now. The electronics may have malfunctioned by then anyway. Its very hard to steal anything inside it with 4 big solid lock mechanisms on the doors.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 02:58:31 AM by Uncle Bob »
ELEVATE YOUR GAME

Offline Eddie

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Re:Uncle Bob's Excellent Solar Set-up
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2013, 05:52:19 AM »
Thanks for the pics, Uncle Bob. Very nice set-up. I like the security offered by the metal container.

Was wondering about how the panels are wired. At 250W each, they must be 24V and not 12V panels...so the charge controllers are probably MPPT units to handle the higher voltage. Guessing it's 3 banks, with 3 panels in parallel on two of them and two in parallel on the third, unless the controllers allow higher than 24V input, which could be the case.

Would like to know the brand and specs on the three charge controllers. I can't immediately identify them.

Since the shipping container is effectively a Faraday Cage, it will protect much of your system if there ever was something like an EMP "event". Consider stockpiling a few extra panels inside the box as they would be what would get fried and need to be replaced after something like that. I'd want an extra charge controller or two as well.

Where is your generator? You have to feed those batteries if the sun doesn't shine.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 07:02:30 AM by Eddie »
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

 

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