AuthorTopic: Never Stop Running, Napalm Girl  (Read 49062 times)

Offline g

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Re: Never Stop Running, Napalm Girl
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2013, 04:43:22 AM »

Israel to my knowledge has never promised to annihilate Iran, that ass hole that was running Iran was clearly a loose cannon looney tune imho.

Judge by ACTIONS not WORDS.  What are the ACTIONS of Israel WRT the Palestinians?

When Israel hands over all their Nukes for destruction, they hold a moral high ground.  Long as they have them, they are on the Moral Low Ground and everyone around them should be free to make their own Bombs.

RE

There's words and then there's Words.

Public threats of annihilation from a head of state to a neighbor country should be taken seriously by the people responsible for the defense of that nation in my view.

You and I have the luxury of looking at it from a different perch.

Offline Ashvin

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Re: Never Stop Running, Napalm Girl
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2013, 05:42:24 AM »
GO is right, this thread is rife with over-generalizations and over-extrapolations about "war".

Ray went from a heart-rending example of innocents maimed by military strikes to the conclusion that all wars at all times are examples of "mass psychotic hypnosis" and absolutely unjustifiable evils. Where exactly do we draw the line between justified "personal grievances" and "war"?

Mking went from valid examples of lives saved by military intervention to the implication that every US-sponsored war of the 20th century was justified as well as every military action taken during those wars.

RE, your comments have been surprisingly "turn the other cheekish" so far!

Offline Eddie

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Re: Never Stop Running, Napalm Girl
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2013, 06:40:24 AM »
Over-generalizations? Really?

Ray cuts through the bullshit and gets it 100% right in my opinion. When it comes to war, it's the regular folks who pay the price. And it's the banking elites that feed on the corpses of our sons and daughters.

The bond market was invented to finance wars, and if war is good for business, it is best for those at the very, very top of the debt based  money pyramid.

Americans are mostly delusional about war, except for the few who manage to have the exceedingly bad luck or bad judgment to end up in a place where shit get blown up in your face. We are all too easy to sell on war, and it is made worse by the macho posturing of the legions of military vets like the ones Ray was talking about, the ones who never actually get shot at. Most of us....almost all of us...have been completely insulated from war's reality.

And war is what has bankrupted our treasury. Wars are expensive, and we have sold our children into slavery already, to pay for them.

Great article, Ray. I was very moved by your words.





What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline monsta666

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Re: Never Stop Running, Napalm Girl
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2013, 06:48:15 AM »
There's words and then there's Words.

Public threats of annihilation from a head of state to a neighbour country should be taken seriously by the people responsible for the defense of that nation in my view.

You and I have the luxury of looking at it from a different perch.

Actions are more important than words ALWAYS. If the two conflict one must was always judge what a person does rather than what he says. I think this point is even more relevant today when deceit is so rife and doing what is right is frowned upon and doing what is easy (even if wrong) is encouraged. Israel may not of directly said they want to annihilate other Arab nations (although that point is very debatable) their actions of not only possessing nuclear weapons but being advocates and even instigators in funding many opposition rebel groups, supply with arms etc. shows their true intentions.

As already alluded too, warfare need not be direct and simply the denial of critical resources/services can be enough to destroy a country. The US along with many allies have not only supplied arms to dictators and rebel groups to undermine democracies but at the same time they have also instigated long standing economic sanctions that does much to make the life of J6P more difficult. Places like Syria, Iran, Sudan and even more recently Somalia are all black listed from the financial markets because they are deemed untrustworthy. This action does nothing to stop dictators but it does prevent individuals in those said countries from resources readily available in the world market. The problem here, is much of these sanctions and their effects are not documented by the western media in any meaningful detail. I also suspect there is a good probability that Israel probably did say something to the effect of destroying Iran or some Arab nation but what are the chances it would be broadcast on the MSM of the US? I feel there are greater odds of Bernanke advocating a return to the gold standard than that showing Israel say such things in the news.

In the end I think the important point to recognise is in this day and age there are no good guys at the top; only self-interests. You do not get to the top echelons of society these days without being mentally deranged in one way or another. Nearly everything at the top is smoke and mirrors; you see this in all facets of life from finance, economics, politics and social policy. I am sure you can find examples of this madness for me.

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: Never Stop Running, Napalm Girl
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2013, 07:00:40 AM »
This is one I think the libertarians got right.  They are opposed to the initiation of force.   If one country is invaded, not only can they defend themselves, but other countries can help them.  That is the only kind of war that is justified, and only for the one side.

What about the case of Civil War though where the fight is between factions within a given country?  What about when one or both factions are being supported by arms merchants from without who have a specific agenda to destabilize Da Goobermint of a country in order to get a Regime Change that will be amenable to their interests?

If you say it is "Justifiable War" if you oppose the Initiation of Force, what about the situation where one side is systematically deprived of basic resources (aka FOOD) an finally strikes out Violently to oppose this?  Who initiated the Violence here, the side that controlled economic resources or the side that started shooting the people controlling the resources?
Well that depends on how they are being "deprived"... I find that is a ripe word for doublespeak... after a JIT collapse the unprepared masses would probably claim that the people who have built up a stockpile are depriving them of food by not sharing and try to take it by force.  In that case the masses are the initiators of force.

On the other hand, if there is some land that hasn't been used for years and people try to grow some food on it to feed themselves and they get kicked off, that's a different story.
Quote
Obama tries to Justify the Syrian War he is pushing for as a "Humanitarian" effort to restore "Democracy".  War Mongers just about always Propagandize the war they are undertaking as one that will Save People, Hitler's Campaign on the Propaganda level was he was trying to Save Aryans, not Kill Jews.

Self Defense in theory is justifiable, but often Self Defense has an aggressive component to it.  Very hard to sort out who is the Righteous one, especially in Civil Wars.
True civil wars are definitely something other countries should stay out of, because it is so hard to tell who the enemy is.

Part of the problem though is the distinction between "nation" and "state".  We still have that connotation when we talk about the "Cherokee nation", for example.  Places like Rwanda are different nations put together under a single state by colonial powers.  A lot of that need to be undone.

Of course war is war be it civil or otherwise.

There is a different distinction between a civil war and a country to country war in my opinion. It is just plain obvious.

My problem with the libertarian view is genocide. How do you stand by and watch hundreds of thousands of innocent people slaughtered by evil thugs. This is where I always felt the UN should play a role, not individual countries, and send troops to stabilize the mayhem.

Of course this is easier said than done, but I feel the concept is valid. Syria is not a genocide situation yet, such as Rwanda, but genocide is something the civilized world should come together on and intervene in with an international military force, not civil unrest within countries.

Even as writing this and playing devil's advocate with myself there are probably exceptions to my broad generalization.

How about Israel, who has a next door neighbor building a nuke that promises to blow them off the face of the earth.?

The wait until you are attacked meme doesn't work too well in that situation. War is just too complicated I guess to make general statements about, except that it should definitely be avoided if at all possible.
Genocide is definitely a problem, but it is generally a nation-vs.-nation problem, even when it is within the same state, so it doesn't really qualify as a true civil war.

Generalizations are valid but they are not hard rules.  They definitely need judgement in their application.

The part I find ironic is that most of us have benefited from policies of keeping out of civil wars and genocides.  If the Europeans had intervened, the southwestern border of the United States might very well be West Virginia.  And then the US would not have been strong enough to defeat Germany in World War 2, so it's not just Americans who benefitted.
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline g

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Re: Never Stop Running, Napalm Girl
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2013, 08:02:37 AM »
Over-generalizations? Really?

Ray cuts through the bullshit and gets it 100% right in my opinion. When it comes to war, it's the regular folks who pay the price. And it's the banking elites that feed on the corpses of our sons and daughters.

The bond market was invented to finance wars, and if war is good for business, it is best for those at the very, very top of the debt based  money pyramid.

Americans are mostly delusional about war, except for the few who manage to have the exceedingly bad luck or bad judgment to end up in a place where shit get blown up in your face. We are all too easy to sell on war, and it is made worse by the macho posturing of the legions of military vets like the ones Ray was talking about, the ones who never actually get shot at. Most of us....almost all of us...have been completely insulated from war's reality.

And war is what has bankrupted our treasury. Wars are expensive, and we have sold our children into slavery already, to pay for them.

Great article, Ray. I was very moved by your words.

Nirvana is a wonderful place alright Doc, very pleasant. A world where everyone refuses to fight; unfortunately it is currently a pipe dream.

We live in a world where you best have a powerful military, it's just a fact. War is an evil that has to prepared for in the world of today, you can hate it all you want, but it is a cruel fact of life.


Offline Eddie

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Re: Never Stop Running, Napalm Girl
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2013, 08:40:01 AM »
War is an evil that has to prepared for in the world of today, you can hate it all you want, but it is a cruel fact of life.

I've spent my whole life, ever since I was maybe 12 years old anyway, trying to figure out how to stay the fuck out of war...and I've been successful. Now I mostly worry about my kids. To me, it's been a major blessing of this lifetime that I have never had to be in the military...never had to live in the aching fear of dying  from a bullet or a bomb...never heard artillery, never got carpet bombed.

It's been a minor miracle, and one I'm grateful for.

We surely do understand very well how to prepare for war. What we don't know how to do is to prepare for peace. And I doubt anything is apt to change. The important thing is to try, the best we can, to withdraw our support, financial and otherwise, for an enterprise that is so obviously wrong.

Ray is correct in his assessment that it s only when regular people show their opposition to war, in numbers, that we have any chance of influencing the decision to wage war. That can, or at least it occasionally has in the past, made a difference. So...I'm anti-war. It's the right position, for the right reasons, at the right time...now.

Nirvana was just a garage band from Seattle.


« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 09:06:20 AM by Eddie »
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline g

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Re: Never Stop Running, Napalm Girl
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2013, 08:54:45 AM »
War is an evil that has to prepared for in the world of today, you can hate it all you want, but it is a cruel fact of life.

I've spent my whole life, ever since I was maybe 12 years old anyway, trying to figure out how to stay the fuck out of war...and I've been successful. Now I mostly worry about my kids. To me, it's been a major blessing of this lifetime that I have never had to be in the military...never had to live in the aching fear of dying  from a bullet or a bomb...never heard artillery, never got carpet bombed.

It's been a minor miracle, and one I'm grateful for.

We surely do understand very well how to prepare for war. What we don't know how to do is to prepare for peace. And I doubt anything is apt to change. The important thing is to try, the best we can, to withdraw our support, financial and otherwise, for an enterprise that is so obviously wrong.

Ray is correct in his assessment that is only when regular people show their opposition to war, in numbers, that we have any chance of influencing the decision to wage war. That can, or at least it occasionally has in the past, made a difference. So...I'm anti-war. It's the right position, for the right reasons, at the right time...now.

Nirvana was just a garage band from Seattle.

It is not your ideals and the correctness of your observations I am arguing with Doc, it is the reality of it currently.

You are quite fortunate others did your fighting for you. It was my fate also to escape combat, I was drafted into the Vietnam horror, and ended up the company clerk of an engineering company in Germany.

Whatever, I am with you 100% in spirit, but the facts of our current situation force it to be merely a dream of a world without evil.

Offline RE

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Re: Never Stop Running, Napalm Girl
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2013, 03:05:00 PM »
RE, your comments have been surprisingly "turn the other cheekish" so far!

I am Pro-Guillotine and Anti-War.  :icon_mrgreen:

Wars, particularly in the Modern Era have been run by the Elite, for the Elite with J6P used as Cannon Fodder.  So I don't support this Violence.  IMHO, when told by the Elite that you should go to War, you should Shoot the Elite.  This is Violence I support.   THIS would Save a lot of lives.

RE
Save As Many As You Can

Offline monsta666

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Re: Never Stop Running, Napalm Girl
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2013, 03:47:23 PM »
Wars, particularly in the Modern Era have been run by the Elite, for the Elite with J6P used as Cannon Fodder.  So I don't support this Violence.  IMHO, when told by the Elite that you should go to War, you should Shoot the Elite.  This is Violence I support.   THIS would Save a lot of lives.

I wonder how many lives would have been saved if every elite who shouted war or declared war before WWII started was murdered. Would the ensuing civil wars from the successful assassinations lead to less bloodshed and less suffering to J6P or would we get multiple fanatical factions fighting tooth and nail in the power vacuum that was created after the top dog was beheaded? Such has been the story in places like Libya and Iraq. Although I will say that those countries, unlike many nations in Europe at the time, were previously run by long-standing ruthless dictators so the power vacuum from such a killing may not have been so great.

Offline RE

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Re: Never Stop Running, Napalm Girl
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2013, 04:03:41 PM »

I wonder how many lives would have been saved if every elite who shouted war or declared war before WWII started was murdered. Would the ensuing civil wars from the successful assassinations lead to less bloodshed and less suffering to J6P or would we get multiple fanatical factions fighting tooth and nail in the power vacuum that was created after the top dog was beheaded? Such has been the story in places like Libya and Iraq. Although I will say that those countries, unlike many nations in Europe at the time, were previously run by long-standing ruthless dictators so the power vacuum from such a killing may not have been so great.

A big part of the reason the bloodshed goes on for so long in Libya and Iraq is because the CIA keeps it going by resupplying rival factions and assassinating leaders as they emerge.  Left to their own devices, I suspect by now some faction would have taken over control.

RE
Save As Many As You Can

Offline Snowleopard

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Re: Never Stop Running, Napalm Girl
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2013, 08:10:05 PM »

Israel to my knowledge has never promised to annihilate Iran, that ass hole that was running Iran was clearly a loose cannon looney tune imho.

Judge by ACTIONS not WORDS.  What are the ACTIONS of Israel WRT the Palestinians?

They hand over a place they can stay, as far away from the school buses full of children they would like to blow up as possible, and let them live in some form or fashion. Those Israeli's must be pretty forgiving, most humans after having met those who find the murder of school children and other random civilians as amusing would have earned themselves nothing more than being put down like a rabid animal, having demonstrated zero concern for the sanctity of human life.

They say a terrorist is a man with a bomb, who doesn't have an air force to deliver it. 

The children blown up by the Israeli air force (& tanks, artillery etc.)  simply do not get the same media coverage.  When coverage was likely, the Israelis (accidently, of course) targeted some media people.  Few want that job now. 

The terrorist, as you point out, may merit treatment as a rabid dog, should he survive that long.  But the fighter-bomber pilot (who may actually kill more children) is commonly considered a hero??   :icon_scratch:



"A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest." -  Simon and Garfunkel

Offline RE

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Re: Never Stop Running, Napalm Girl
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2013, 10:18:47 PM »
Tell it to the Carthaginians. That war ended so well there aren't even any of them left to lament the fine land and city they once had.

There are still plenty of Carthaginians, just nowadays they are called Tunisians.  Romans defeating Carthaginians in the Punic Wars didn't eliminate the population, it just changed the Ruling Elite.  I doubt this improved the life of the typical Carthaginian much and in fact the Wars still rage on in this part of the world.  The Japanese being defeated in WWII didn't change the ruling Elite there at ALL, and given Fukushima and the disaster modernity has brought to the islands of Honshu and Hokkaido, it's pretty hard to make a case their lives were improved by the War.  The FSoA "won" that war, but we are still stuck with the same Scumbags running the show as before also while life gets a little worse every day with this bunch of Fascists in charge.

Wars are fought at the behest of the Elite as a means for them to retain power.  J6P is expendable Cannon Fodder and rarely through history has seen said Wars do much to change anything besides the Nameplates on the Parking Spots around the Castle.  Said dynamic occurred through the period of expanding levels of energy extraction and is unlikely to work similarly in the reverse direction.

War is basically the Will to Power run amok, which historically speaking has done no good for the vast majority of the population, who if they don't get sent to the Great Beyond as a casualty of the War, are equally fucked in its aftermath until the next one comes up.  Accessing the thermodynamic energy of fossil fuels first and then Nuke Puke made this situation a good deal worse of course by making it still bigger and global, but assuming we avoid an ELE, things should improve in the future as the available energy with which to wage War and maintain the Conduits decreases.

RE
Save As Many As You Can

Offline Surly1

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Re: Never Stop Running, Napalm Girl
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2013, 01:42:18 AM »
3) Tell me again, how many Nankings the Japanese have committed since surrendering to America at the end of WWII? Seems like war worked pretty well for stopping the Japanese from committing further atrocities for probably your, and my, lifespan. If that isn't a good example of "working like a damn charm" I don't know what is.

More history learnin' for everyone!

Yes Ray, according to the prevailing logicairless world in which MKing dwells, it was the lessons drawn from the salutary administration of nuclear weapons on civilian populations that has prevented them from committing another Nanking since 1945. Had nothing to do with American occupation, Japanese constitution, etc...

Ray need make no reply to the end justifies the means moral relativist who is immune to empathy or fellow feeling and blind to drawing lessons from history. Don't dare lecture ANYONE about history here.



You have already demonstrated lack of standing.

Now I have to go spray the troll off my shoes.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 02:08:03 AM by Surly1 »
"...reprehensible lying communist..."

Offline Surly1

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Re: Never Stop Running, Napalm Girl
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2013, 01:46:51 AM »

Israel to my knowledge has never promised to annihilate Iran, that ass hole that was running Iran was clearly a loose cannon looney tune imho.

Judge by ACTIONS not WORDS.  What are the ACTIONS of Israel WRT the Palestinians?

They hand over a place they can stay, as far away from the school buses full of children they would like to blow up as possible, and let them live in some form or fashion. Those Israeli's must be pretty forgiving, most humans after having met those who find the murder of school children and other random civilians as amusing would have earned themselves nothing more than being put down like a rabid animal, having demonstrated zero concern for the sanctity of human life.

Interesting to see MKing's concern for schoolchildren who are not Palistinian or Japanese.

Another moment of moral uplift from the Mossad's man at the Diner, happy to shill for the Zionist Apartheid State.
"...reprehensible lying communist..."

 

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