PE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd"> It's Evolution Baby!!

Poll

Evolution V's Creationism

God created everything
Evolution created everything
Everything has always existed and had no beginning
We were genetically modified by Visiting Extraterrestrial Beings
Mostly Evolution after Creation, with periodic adjustments to the Model (so the Godfather can vote)...(and RE's a limp noodle)

AuthorTopic: It's Evolution Baby!!  (Read 5797 times)

Offline luciddreams

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It's Evolution Baby!!
« on: October 16, 2013, 02:00:33 AM »
Feathered Dinosaur
Feathered Dinosaur

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VIICComplexity.shtml

Quote
Co-opting: The intermediate stages of a complex feature might have served a different purpose than the fully-fledged adaptation serves. What good is “half a wing?” Even if it’s not good for flying, it might be good for something else. The evolution of the very first feathers might have had nothing to do with flight and everything to do with insulation or display. Natural selection is an excellent thief, taking features that evolved in one context and using them for new functions.

Uncle Bob said:


Quote
We are therefore  emotional beings more than rational. Thinking is just a tool we developed as our brains either evolved or were genetically engineered visitors which is more plausible to me and supported. To me saying we evolved the ability to speak and therefore think in language and then numbers is saying birds evolved wings to fly out of appendages to propel. The thing would have had to become useless in its current application supporting weight on land before becoming usefull to work entirely differently to fly. That is not natural selection at work.

http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/forum/index.php?topic=1905.30




Far as I know we haven't debated the merits of natural selection and evolution yet here on the Diner (I'm sure it's been done here, but not since I've been around, or I haven't seen it), so here we go.  I think, given the ongoing spiritual debating, that this would be a good place to go.  I've never studied up on the topic really.  I've read Origin of Species and covered it briefly in Bio 101 15 years ago, but never done too much thinking on it myself.  I have, however, in the brief thinking on the subject, found difficulty as UB has. 

JW posted a picture of a flying squirrel as evidence of appendages that can also be used for gliding...which isn't quite flight, but it's a neat trick out of nature IMO.  Seems intermediate feathered appendages, or simple light sensing eye spots like with the flatworm, could be showing the intermediate steps on the way to flight and vision.  Still feathers for display are a far cry from flight. 

I suppose I'm on the fence with this issue.  It's no slam dunk either way.  Typically it's either evolution or creationism.  It's usually either scientific Atheism or Theist Creationism.  I'd like to offer a third option, and that option will likely throw this thing back into spirituality, but I figured I'd give spirituality board a rest and honor science.  That third option is the one I believe (for now) and that is that eyes and flight were not created and did not evolve.  It sounds preposterous I know.  I hold that these things are, and have always been.  Eyes, brains, and wings have always existed and had no beginning.  But there are obvious problems with this thinking.  For instance, what of the non-flying dinosaurs with feathers?  What of things going extinct.  If they've always been how could they then cease to be?  Yet I maintain that this is just the way it is.

Things just are.  Science is mostly us figuring out how things are put together.  Yet quantum physics shows us that the simple act of observing changes the nature of the observed, so can we ever know?  If science must honestly conclude that it can't know because the observation, the thing we must have to verify, changes the results.  I believe that is referred to as a "God Joke."   :laugh:

So if science can't know then it's anybodies guess really.  I've read before, somewhere, that when the Buddha was asked whether God existed or not, he said "it does not matter."  That's my stance.  It doesn't matter whether wings were created or evolved.  Wings are as is flight.  That's not good enough for our big brains though.  We want to know, but in this case I believe we never will. 

So what is it Diners?  I imagine my view will be mine alone among this crowd.  So who believes in evolution, and who believes God created everything...or...breaking the binary...who agrees with my preposterous view that everything has always just been? 

So, in ending, here is a great video from one of my all time favorite bands (second next to U2 :D ) Pearl Jam. 

Do the Evolution

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/aDaOgu2CQtI?feature=player_detailpage" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/aDaOgu2CQtI?feature=player_detailpage</a>
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 02:05:12 AM by luciddreams »

Offline RE

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Re: It's Evolution Baby!!
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2013, 02:10:33 AM »
I can't vote in this poll with the current choices.  You need more Options.

I personally think God Created the Universe and Life, but after Creation has let the system Run basically unimpeded, and Evolution has occurred through the time period since Creation.  I say "basically" unimpeded" because MOST of the time it works this way, but PERIODICALLY there is interference from God when the whole experiment is running poorly.  During said periods you get Extinction Level Events, radically New Species appearing etc.

Can you add a Choice to the Poll for "Mostly Evolution after Creation, with periodic adjustments to the Model"?

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Offline luciddreams

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Re: It's Evolution Baby!!
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2013, 02:38:32 AM »
Done...with a parenthetical addendum...or two :laugh:

Offline RE

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Re: It's Evolution Baby!!
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2013, 03:29:56 AM »
Done...with a parenthetical addendum...or two :laugh:

I voted, "limp noodle" editorializing by SC White Trash and all.  :icon_sunny:

You wanna TAKE ON this "Limp Noodle" on the pages of the Doomstead Diner Fuckface?  Go for it!  I will carve you up like Thanksgiving Turkey.  :icon_mrgreen:  We shall see who has more Limp Keyboard Fingers here.  You know how much dirt you can pitch with a Shovel out of a Hole You Dig?  Up that one by 2-3 Orders of Magnitude for what I can (will, and DO!!) pitch off my keyboard on a daily basis.  I will grind you to DUST!)  LOL.

Ima just sayin'.  In the Words of Will Sonnet, "No Brag, Just FACT."  :icon_mrgreen:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/9j1qkorFszY?feature=player_detailpage" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/9j1qkorFszY?feature=player_detailpage</a>

Love ya dude.  :icon_sunny:

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Offline luciddreams

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Re: It's Evolution Baby!!
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2013, 03:35:52 AM »
What are you gonna carve up RE? 

My choice of monikers for name calling?   :laugh:

I mean I hardly disagree with you on anything big...at least nothing worth arguing about.  So you don't really have anything to destroy me over. 

I mean it's not like you can prove that God created this mess and then let it evolve.  It's all just opinion.  White trash...geesh...what cause I live in a double wide next to a trailer park that I don't pay for :laugh:  I don't even smoke cigarettes or have a mullet.

You crack me up.   ::)

Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: It's Evolution Baby!!
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2013, 05:16:13 AM »
Double wide eh? Im reminded of those cruel jokes about my mama... that I made myself. Junior and I live in a shed (barn) and its ok.

Anyway the big yeti wants to know how or if he evolved LOL.

Short answer is I dont know and cant come up with anything that gives me much confidence. I know the hominid fossil record is extremely lacking. They dont have hundreds of bones or skulls, just a few and those are mostly pretty busted up and put back together like a puzzle.

For that reason where we people are concerned Im inclined to believe the record of the ancients whose writings and picture records show visitors and their technology, as well as all the experimentation.

Then again when I was on a safari in kenya I saw how leopards and cheetahs like to drag their kill near a shady tree. At the same time I saw how sneaky the monkeys were stealing cameras and food.

Monkeys would have seen the cheetah eating the carcass and come down from a tree to try some. As hyenas or jackals or vultures approached  the hands with opposing thumbs that were useful for HOLDING branches suddenly became useful for holding a femur or humerus and throwing or brandishing. The monkey was now getting a degree of independence via defence. He could break off a branch or pick up a broken branch any time too. Picking up a burning branch meant scaring away even bigger threats, and later moving into cold regions. All of africa is in climate that is  agreeable enough not to need clothes or fire to keep warm enough not to freeze.

Apes dont carry tools very far and chuck them if they use a stick etc pretty soon after being finished hitting whatever. So as the theory goes, they had already evolved enough OR been injected with alien dna enough to have a brain capable of keeping the stick or even better BURNING stick at all times out in the open. They then could wander around safe from lions and bears etc, crossed what are now seas when the water level was lower and went to asia via europe, americas via siberia etc.

Now I know I often defer to hindu philosophy, and I noticed Ashvin read some very vedic notions into the bible that I never picked up reading the bible myself. Namely the idea of the cycle of destruction. Basically the idea of Kali yuga etc cycle lasting 5000 yrs approx is simply not supported by the fossil record.

Yes we have all these civilizations suddenly popping up about 5000 yrs ago on average on every continent and that HAS to be due to alien intervention, BUT wtf is the record of it happening the previous times?! NOt there, nada zero zip. Only  a few various semi ape hominids for  a few million years  with fully modern humans for a million years, and neanderthals in the 'old world' up until about a quarter million yrs ago.

So while I can easily see the cycle since civilization arose around 5-6'000 yrs ago becoming all evil and needing flushing as per the kali yuga cycle, I really cant see it having happened any other time, such as if Noahs Ark Deluge had happened say 10-12,000 yrs ago. Or Toba blew its top whenever.

People aside now looking at all other forms of "creation", I vaguely have a best guess that with non-linnear time we are all co-creators somehow. Ideas not  necessarily in words format are easily telepathic and the ideas are dreamed into existence. The aboriginals actually call the creation the 'dreamtime' and 'dreaming' and refer to 'my dreaming'.

The obvious question then is 'but where did it start, how did it start?'. I can only say that my mind thinks the answer lies in nonlinnear time, and definite deja vu confirms time is non-linnear.

But I suspect you cannot ever understand it within the framework of our intellects. You have to break through and experience it happening by connecting with your source, your infinite potential.

WHD often obliquely seems to allude to the principle that some swami's speak about and even bruce springsteen sings of.

You reading this WHD what say you?

This is probably the most way out there theory I ever put forward here, if its even understandable lol.

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Offline Eddie

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Re: It's Evolution Baby!!
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2013, 07:53:42 AM »
I can't vote either. None of the choices quite fits my POV.

My view:

God is, was and always shall be.

We are God, or at least we are a manifestation of God, which is to say, the same thing. We are not separate from God. We just feel separated from God, because our consciousness is very limited. Feeling separated from God is a part of what it is to be human.

Evolution, as an explanation of animal and human development, has very little (nothing really) to do with whether God exists, or who or what God is...Evolution of species appears to be a scientifically provable phenomenon. Lots of evidence exists to support it.

I just see evolution is a part of how God works. Part of what God is. Part of What Is, period.Great thinkers and writers of the past, who lacked the evidence we have, could not have been expected to make this phenomenon fit into their story line.

Science, after all,  is just a logical way of human understanding that we've come up with to try to make the confusing pieces of the Universe make sense and fit into our story line as best we can. Science is a way of sorting facts. Facts that sometimes appear to conflict with one another.

Magic is a way of human understanding that doesn't necessarily require facts to fit into the puzzle that is the Whole Enchilada. Lacking facts, "magic" is the default human explanation of physical phenomena.

The  line between magic and science is fuzzy for most humans. Cell phones are science...but only to the Science Priests...the engineers. For the rest of us, they're magic. No? Then fix yours the next time it breaks.

The problem we have here, this "fight" between science and religion ( not just over evolution...evolution is just one battle in a broader war)  comes from a failure on the part of some religious people to understand that the great religious books of the past are full of magical explanations for things. Not because the writers wanted to make shit up, but because they just lacked clear knowledge. And since many religious folks feel that whatever version of their Bible or other Holy Book is the literal, infallible, final, Word of God, they can't reconcile new data with the magical explanations of the past.

They are constantly having to struggle to fit new data into an old story line that doesn't seem to be compatible with what science is finding out...and since science has progressed very rapidly over recent generations, it's getting harder to do, and requires an increasing level of imagination, with the alternative being a rejection of science, because...well, it's easier and cleaner and requires No Thinking.

But a clearer understanding of the physical reality of the Universe does not make any argument against the existence of God, nor should it.  It's completely tangential. And if one recognizes that the Holy Books are the stuff of myth and metaphor rather than Dictation from God, then you can reconcile science and religion with no problem.

You'd think so, anyway.




« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 08:23:42 AM by Eddie »
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Offline agelbert

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Re: It's Evolution Baby!!
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2013, 12:55:40 PM »
Eddie said,
Quote
The problem we have here, this "fight" between science and religion ( not just over evolution...evolution is just one battle in a broader war)  comes from a failure on the part of some religious people to understand that the great religious books of the past are full of magical explanations for things. Not because the writers wanted to make shit up, but because they just lacked clear knowledge. And since many religious folks feel that whatever version of their Bible or other Holy Book is the literal, infallible, final, Word of God, they can't reconcile new data with the magical explanations of the past.

They are constantly having to struggle to fit new data into an old story line that doesn't seem to be compatible with what science is finding out...and since science has progressed very rapidly over recent generations, it's getting harder to do, and requires an increasing level of imagination, with the alternative being a rejection of science, because...well, it's easier and cleaner and requires No Thinking.

Well said!  :emthup:

That said, the Procrustean bed many fundies have made for themselves applies to the evolutionary true believing fundamentalists that view any questioning of Darwin's flawed theory as sacrilege worthy of scorn and ridicule. IOW, these "scientists" are rejecting the scientific method when new scientific discoveries in
1. cell machinery,
2. multiple symbiotic relationships in widely divergent species with no "evolutionary: common ancestor,
3. fossil record showing no transitional life forms (unless the definition of "transitional" becomes rather pliant in its magical thinking story telling imagination - speculation without evidence is not science - calling "evidence" an interpretation of fossils as transitional life forms is an opinion, not evidence),
4. sudden appearance of related species genera of the same family in the fossil record
5. dating assumptions in rock strata despite several issues with dating methods (one dating method showing radically different age than others yet the one producing the more "acceptable" (tens to hundreds millions of years older REQUIRED for ACCEPTABLE  natural selection) age being the one given "scientific" credibility, etc.

What I'm saying is that what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Darwin himself and famous evolutionist scientists like Dawkins admit the following:


Darwin's worry



Dawkins on the  Cambrian "sudden planting" of many COMPLETE life forms



Fossil Record Scientific Reality without Storytelling and Magical Thinking




Fatal flaw in Theory of Evolution envisioned by Darwin


And what is the modern response to all the above by the alleged hard boiled scientists that allegedly are not tied to religious superstition and fairy tails with flights of imaginative fancy about this, that and the other came to be?

They come up with even more improbable scenarios that boggle the mind of any mathematician performing probability and statistics; I.E. "CO-evolution to produce symbiotic mechanisms IN A SINGLE life cycle of a species!" (Millions of years don't apply because, according to evolutionary theory, if an "evolutionary advantage" mutation expresses itself in a species (In Zoology I was taught that having two penises was an evolutionary advantage for the crocodile. I suppose they figured one of them could be used as a fish lure or he still could procreate if another crock ate his in a fight - that sure sounds like opinion and story telling rather that scientific evidence to me. ;) it is necessary for that beneficial mutation to begin to be used or it will be "selected out". Do you see the problem here? The other side of the symbiosis HAS to connect up in an extremely short period of time or one side gets lost.

This is a scientific Procrustean bed they are trying to stuff the Theory of Evolution in by calling on the CO-evolution magical thinking. Why is it magical and unscientific? Because CO-evolution without intelligent design requires several times more time than the universe age. Yes. I know, some will say that then maybe he universe IS 100 billion years or so old. They'll say ANYTHING to avoid giving the "GOD DID IT" hypothesis and scientific credibility whatsoever.

Your statements apply correctly to the Goose (the fundies). This is how they ALSO apply to the Gander (evolution true believers).


In regard the Evolutionists:"they can't reconcile new data with the magical explanations of the past (see Darwin's worries above).

They are constantly having to struggle to fit new data into an old story line that doesn't seem to be compatible with what science is finding out...and since science has progressed very rapidly over recent generations, it's getting harder to do, (see 1 through 5 above) and requires an increasing level of imagination, (see CO-evolutionary symbiosis and dual crocodile penises) with the alternative being a rejection of science, because...well...

they will be forced to go the intelligent design route and believe our biosphere was put here by ET scientists doing a science experiment or, horror of horrors, the God of all creation.

Evolutionist in the face of proven Creation:

I'm a sort of fundy but I agree with you that there is a lot of non-scientific imagination in the Bible that does NOTHING to reduce the veracity of the message from God to us about how to behave if we want to reach our full potential. I basically could care less if God did it through evolution, mud puddles with Darwinian and Einsteinian brain cells thrown in one day when God had nothing better to do or if the ETs God made long before he made us are running a science experiment.  :icon_mrgreen:

But if people who claim to have the scientific method enshrined right up there with the tablets Moses was given are going to tell me they will ONLY support evidence based on the scientific method, they should shit can the Theory of Evolution and be ready to shit can anything else that doesn't "fit" into the Procrustean Bed called the Theory of Evolution. Otherwise, they are as guilty of turf protecting, non-thinking, BULLSHIT as the overly zealous fundies.

I will not EVER accept science fiction as science fact. It's time to move on to something more credible than "the mud puddle PLUS a few billion years equals the biosphere". 

Read more here:.

http://renewablerevolution.createaforum.com/general-discussion/darwin/

« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 01:00:53 PM by agelbert »
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Offline Eddie

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Re: It's Evolution Baby!!
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2013, 01:22:38 PM »
Your statements apply correctly to the Goose (the fundies). This is how they ALSO apply to the Gander (evolution true believers).

Fair enough. The thing is that science is supposed to be evidence based.

If the preponderance of evidence suggests something different than what's been previously accepted, we have to modify our current theory. That's how science works. If we have fixed beliefs that science has given us the ultimate explanation, and that no room exists for questioning...then that isn't science any more.
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Offline RE

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Re: It's Evolution Baby!!
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2013, 02:27:10 PM »
Your statements apply correctly to the Goose (the fundies). This is how they ALSO apply to the Gander (evolution true believers).

Fair enough. The thing is that science is supposed to be evidence based.

If the preponderance of evidence suggests something different than what's been previously accepted, we have to modify our current theory. That's how science works. If we have fixed beliefs that science has given us the ultimate explanation, and that no room exists for questioning...then that isn't science any more.

I gotta try and get George Mobus in on this one.  LOL.

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Offline luciddreams

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Re: It's Evolution Baby!!
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2013, 02:59:50 PM »
well ya'll taught me to try and do a damn poll on something ::)

So either God did it, ET's did it (but they themselves were created by God so essentially they're just middle men), or a process that seems to be science fiction did it (evolution). 

I suppose my position, that creation has just always been is my position alone.  Although, admittedly, everything just always being makes as much sense as God creating everything.  Still, who created God?  If God had no beginning, than why couldn't creation have no beginning?  If God had no creator than why could creation have no creator?  I mean essentially it comes down to the fact that something came from nothing...be it God, or random species coming and going. 

Which has been my position for a long time.  If God can come from nothing and have no beginning, then why can't everything just come from nothing and have no beginning?  Isn't it essentially the same belief?

I mean we're saying that life is too complex to not have been created...but God must be more complex then creation...so why do we buy that?  See my problem here? 

Offline RE

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Re: It's Evolution Baby!!
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2013, 03:45:06 PM »

Which has been my position for a long time.  If God can come from nothing and have no beginning, then why can't everything just come from nothing and have no beginning?  Isn't it essentially the same belief?

I mean we're saying that life is too complex to not have been created...but God must be more complex then creation...so why do we buy that?  See my problem here?

A Guardian of Forever Issue.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/9sDJjVi2nQA?feature=player_detailpage" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/9sDJjVi2nQA?feature=player_detailpage</a>

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Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: It's Evolution Baby!!
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2013, 04:01:07 PM »
If God can come from nothing and have no beginning, then why can't everything just come from nothing and have no beginning?  Isn't it essentially the same belief?
I almost agree with you...

Here's my argument:

I don't exist independently.  Take away oxygen, or water, or food, etc., for long enough, and I will cease to exist.  My existence is dependent on the current existence of other things, as is the existence of all living things.  Also, there was a time before I existed, so the start of my existence was dependent on the previous existence of other things, as is the existence of all objects living or not.  This chain of dependence can't be unbounded. Either it has to loop back around after it encompasses the entire universe, or it rests on something that does not depend on anything but itself for its existence (because if the loop of dependence encompasses the entire universe, than the universe has the property of not depending on anything but itself).  "That which does not depend on anything but itself for its own existence" is a rather unwieldy phrase, though, so I prefer to use a shorthand notation: God.

That then begs the question, could God simply be the universe?  Here's the thing: by definition, there could not have been a time before God existed.  Since God only depends on God to exist, God must always have existed.  There was a time when scientists did think the universe had always existed.  Now, however, there seem to be limits to how far back in time we can observe the universe.  So the universe does not appear to be God.  So God must be something beyond the observable universe.

Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: It's Evolution Baby!!
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2013, 04:15:38 PM »
AGB,
 thanks for fleshing out what I alluded to about the great inferential leaps anthropologists take from the FEW fragmented fossils they found. I have 2 books, one dated 1993 outlining the old linnear progression, and another dated 2000 with the more modern view that there was more a family bush than family tree with many dead ends (unviable  genetic experiments to me). NEITHER of these books were satisfactory  (and they werent cheap, but I wanted to know) for the reasons you gave.
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Offline luciddreams

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Re: It's Evolution Baby!!
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2013, 04:51:57 PM »

Which has been my position for a long time.  If God can come from nothing and have no beginning, then why can't everything just come from nothing and have no beginning?  Isn't it essentially the same belief?

I mean we're saying that life is too complex to not have been created...but God must be more complex then creation...so why do we buy that?  See my problem here?

A Guardian of Forever Issue.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/9sDJjVi2nQA?feature=player_detailpage" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/9sDJjVi2nQA?feature=player_detailpage</a>

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How'd you know I was a Trekkie?    :laugh:

I'm sure I've divulged that information before on the Diner. 

 

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