PE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd"> It's Evolution Baby!!

Poll

Evolution V's Creationism

God created everything
Evolution created everything
Everything has always existed and had no beginning
We were genetically modified by Visiting Extraterrestrial Beings
Mostly Evolution after Creation, with periodic adjustments to the Model (so the Godfather can vote)...(and RE's a limp noodle)

AuthorTopic: It's Evolution Baby!!  (Read 5806 times)

Offline luciddreams

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Re: It's Evolution Baby!!
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2013, 05:14:54 PM »

I almost agree with you...

Here's my argument:

I don't exist independently.  Take away oxygen, or water, or food, etc., for long enough, and I will cease to exist.  My existence is dependent on the current existence of other things, as is the existence of all living things.  Also, there was a time before I existed, so the start of my existence was dependent on the previous existence of other things, as is the existence of all objects living or not.  This chain of dependence can't be unbounded. Either it has to loop back around after it encompasses the entire universe, or it rests on something that does not depend on anything but itself for its existence (because if the loop of dependence encompasses the entire universe, than the universe has the property of not depending on anything but itself).  "That which does not depend on anything but itself for its own existence" is a rather unwieldy phrase, though, so I prefer to use a shorthand notation: God.

That then begs the question, could God simply be the universe?  Here's the thing: by definition, there could not have been a time before God existed.  Since God only depends on God to exist, God must always have existed.  There was a time when scientists did think the universe had always existed.  Now, however, there seem to be limits to how far back in time we can observe the universe.  So the universe does not appear to be God.  So God must be something beyond the observable universe.

I almost agree with you to...that is to say that I don't agree :D

I mean I give you an "A" for effort and what not.  The problem I see with your chain of logic is this:

Quote
there seem to be limits to how far back in time we can observe the universe.

I agree, I'm sure that is true, as far as we know.  But as Agelbert pointed out, our methods of dating fossils is not without troubles.  So I imagine our ability to date the universe is simply theoretical.  Subject to change. 

All of this just strengthens my position.  The universe and consciousness has simply always existed.  There is no problem with this conclusion IMO...since nothing can be proven.  I think the Buddha would smile and agree :D

Buddha's Temptation
Buddha's Temptation

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: It's Evolution Baby!!
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2013, 06:48:32 PM »
Quote from: jdwheeler42
Now, however, there seem to be limits to how far back in time we can observe the universe.  So the universe does not appear to be God.  So God must be something beyond the observable universe.

I almost agree with you to...that is to say that I don't agree :D

I mean I give you an "A" for effort and what not.  The problem I see with your chain of logic is this:

Quote
there seem to be limits to how far back in time we can observe the universe.

I agree, I'm sure that is true, as far as we know.  But as Agelbert pointed out, our methods of dating fossils is not without troubles.  So I imagine our ability to date the universe is simply theoretical.  Subject to change. 

All of this just strengthens my position.  The universe and consciousness has simply always existed.  There is no problem with this conclusion IMO...since nothing can be proven.  I think the Buddha would smile and agree :D
Of course that is the weak point in the chain of logic, because it is where I start depending on observations.
But you're not really disagreeing with my final statement there, God (i.e., that which does not depend on anything else for its existence) must be beyond the observable universe; the universe you believe in is infinitely greater than what we can observe.  And you are right, at this level nothing can be proven or disproven.  But you can draw out the implications of a universe where consciousness has always existed.  I think you will find it is quite an interesting rabbit hole.
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline luciddreams

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Re: It's Evolution Baby!!
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2013, 06:58:56 AM »

But you can draw out the implications of a universe where consciousness has always existed.  I think you will find it is quite an interesting rabbit hole.

But isn't saying that "consciousness has always existed" pretty much the same thing as saying that God has always existed from a logical standpoint at least.  I mean obviously the two are not the same, but God has consciousness otherwise how could he create anything.  So any problems with me saying consciousness has always existed will also be present with God having always existed.  That's the strength in my conclusion IMO.  Because if you claim God has always existed then you can't claim consciousness has ever not existed. 

Logically one is no better then the other.  I'm just removing the middle man.  Because if something came from nothing then why make that more complicated then it needs to be?  I think the natural reaction may be to attribute it to God because we can't understand how things can be without being created.  I'd argue that is a product of seeing the world in a dual fashion. 

Offline Ka

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Re: It's Evolution Baby!!
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2013, 01:50:29 PM »

But you can draw out the implications of a universe where consciousness has always existed.  I think you will find it is quite an interesting rabbit hole.

But isn't saying that "consciousness has always existed" pretty much the same thing as saying that God has always existed from a logical standpoint at least.

Here's a web page that gives a good synopsis on Merrell-Wolff. Consciousness is not only eternal, it is the source of everything else:

Quote from: Merrell-Wolff
The One, nonderivative Reality, is THAT which I have symbolized by 'Consciousness-without-an-object.' This is Root Consciousness, per se, to be distinguished from consciousness as content or as state, on the one hand, and from consciousness as an attribute of a Self or Atman, in any sense whatsoever. It is Consciousness of which nothing can be predicated in the privative sense save abstract Being. Upon It all else depends, while It remains self-existent.

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: It's Evolution Baby!!
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2013, 03:29:44 PM »
But isn't saying that "consciousness has always existed" pretty much the same thing as saying that God has always existed from a logical standpoint at least.
At the very least.... :)
Quote
  I mean obviously the two are not the same
Are you sure about that?  8)
Quote
Logically one is no better then the other.
Absolutely
Quote
Because if something came from nothing then why make that more complicated then it needs to be?
Just so long as you don't make it any less complicated than it needs to be...  ;)
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline luciddreams

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Re: It's Evolution Baby!!
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2013, 04:37:19 PM »
But isn't saying that "consciousness has always existed" pretty much the same thing as saying that God has always existed from a logical standpoint at least.
At the very least.... :)
Quote
  I mean obviously the two are not the same
Are you sure about that?  8)
Quote
Logically one is no better then the other.
Absolutely
Quote
Because if something came from nothing then why make that more complicated then it needs to be?
Just so long as you don't make it any less complicated than it needs to be...  ;)

I don't like complications.
 :ernaehrung004:

 

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