AuthorTopic: Debt Ceiling Political Crisis  (Read 12082 times)

Offline Surly1

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Re: Debt Ceiling Political Crisis
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2013, 01:58:02 PM »
Using the epithet "Tea Bagger" tells me that both of you, RE and Surly, are not dealing on an entirely rational level.   I agree with you 100% about the leadership of the Tea Party.  The only objection I have is if you think anyone else in power is any better.  When I talk about "ideals", I'm talking about the rank-and-file people who follow the movement, not the leaders (and based on what has been posted here, I would definitely put Ted Cruz in the leader category).

JD, I don't want to prolong this but your comment probably does deserve an answer. I have a lot of regard for the practical, common sense knowledge and opinion you have put forth in many prior postings.

Not entirely rational? Sure, I'll own that. I have spent most of my adult life connecting dots, a habit which started after the Kennedy assassination. I have had people exchange knowing glances, or make little circles at their temples, when I have unburdened myself of such-and-such opinion. But I do not think it is a bad thing to lose one's ordinarily cherubic demeanor in the face of evil.

What the Tea Party puts forth is unadulterated evil. It is the face of incipient American Fascism, risen from the fetid bowels of the Confederacy, and with a long and ignoble history in this country.

I followed the planned and orchestrated government shutdown with an avidity of a monkey masturbating. I read and listened to what these people said-- and say. Their mendacity is only leavened by their selfishness and their lack of empathy. They care for nothing but their ideology and their paymasters' instructions. As far as I am concerned, they are the embodiment of what GO has referenced as the grip of evil, and what I discussed a couple weeks ago in "E Pluribus Unum." These are the people of the gated community, the walled garden, the security perimeter who despise anything "public" because the poors can use it too. These are the people of white privilege, the presence of Latinos and other people of color notwithstanding. These are people who insist-- insist-- that the project of government is to fund their own whims and desires and nothing more. (Tax receipts for religious schools, everyone?) These people are the face of selfishness. If this is what "American Exceptionalism" has come to embody, I want no part of it.

And if that's not sufficiently "rational," put me down for two.


My point is simply this: followers of the Tea Party movement are the largest group in America that actually have an idea of the doom we're facing.  Sure, they may be ignorant of how they are being manipulated by their leadership, but if the Doomstead Diner and more importantly the SUN Project are going to be hostile environments for them, then I don't see much chance of success for either.  After radical environmentalists and permaculturalists, these are the people most likely to join.

IMO this represents an utter and complete misreading of the TP movement. Scratch a teaper, find a cornucopianist. Their idea of "doom" is strictly financial, as decreed by the Moses of the movement, Grover Norquist, who "wants to shrink government small enough so he can drown it in the bathtub." Government should fund corporo-fascist priorities, and nothing else, with the financial, natural and health effects to be borne by the public. Otherwise, it's "drill, baby, drill, " as espoused by Princess Dumbass of the Northwoods.

Oh, there may be many survivalists and preppers in their number, but their first order of business after the rule of law breaks is to hunt down people like me.

So no sale. Let them find their own community.

And now I guess i WILL have to write that FKING rant, having already come thus far... ...
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

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Re: Debt Ceiling Political Crisis
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2013, 02:25:55 PM »
Surly "And now I guess i WILL have to write that FKING rant, having already come thus far... ..."

Pleeeze do.

JD, whatever are you on about?  See me after school.

Offline Eddie

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Re: Debt Ceiling Political Crisis
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2013, 02:45:45 PM »
The Tea Party is not the grass roots movement towards fiscal responsibility that it started out to be. It's a fine example of how the real elites can infiltrate and co-opt the platform of any grass roots movement they choose to, and then turn it to to their own ends.

With enough media bucks spent, anyone (like the Koch bros, for instance) can fool most of the people all of the time. It's the same way they were able to muddy the water so bad regarding health care reform.

You can say any kind of crap on TV and Talk Radio, and if you repeat it enough, people will believe. Old people are particularly vulnerable to being manipulated through fear. And of course, they are much more likely to actually show up and vote en masse for whatever bill of goods they've been sold.



« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 02:47:17 PM by Eddie »
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

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Re: Debt Ceiling Political Crisis
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2013, 02:52:55 PM »
Eddie "The Tea Party is not the grass roots movement towards fiscal responsibility that it started out to be. It's a fine example of how the real elites can infiltrate and co-opt the platform of any grass roots movement they choose to, and then turn it to to their own ends.

With enough media bucks spent, anyone (like the Koch bros, for instance) can fool most of the people all of the time."

Eddie, do you think they could fool us? 

The trees are dying the oceans are dying the bats, bees and birds are dying. I'm getting a sense that whoever we are now
is who we are.

Offline Eddie

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Re: Debt Ceiling Political Crisis
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2013, 03:06:39 PM »
They aren't fooling me, but my sense is that most Americans are still pretty clueless.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Mister Roboto

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Re: Debt Ceiling Political Crisis
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2013, 08:06:09 PM »
Quote
IMO this represents an utter and complete misreading of the TP movement. Scratch a teaper, find a cornucopianist. Their idea of "doom" is strictly financial, as decreed by the Moses of the movement, Grover Norquist, who "wants to shrink government small enough so he can drown it in the bathtub." Government should fund corporo-fascist priorities, and nothing else, with the financial, natural and health effects to be borne by the public. Otherwise, it's "drill, baby, drill, " as espoused by Princess Dumbass of the Northwoods.
THIS!
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 08:11:12 PM by Mister Roboto »

Offline WHD

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Re: Debt Ceiling Political Crisis
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2013, 07:54:44 AM »
Quote
IMO this represents an utter and complete misreading of the TP movement. Scratch a teaper, find a cornucopianist. Their idea of "doom" is strictly financial, as decreed by the Moses of the movement, Grover Norquist, who "wants to shrink government small enough so he can drown it in the bathtub." Government should fund corporo-fascist priorities, and nothing else, with the financial, natural and health effects to be borne by the public. Otherwise, it's "drill, baby, drill, " as espoused by Princess Dumbass of the Northwoods.
THIS!

Tea Party Patriots are mostly Christian Fundamentalists. They treat the Constitution like they treat their bible, as the unquestioning Word of God; the Constitution as originally written, of course - not any of that other add-on trash. (Brandon Smith calls the original Constitution a "perfect" document.) The 3/5ths language gives them no pause, any more than the language in the Old Testament about how to treat your slaves, or stoning people for cursing. Too, you will not find one in a thousand self-identified Tea Party folk, who thinks oil is finite - ie if we just get to gov out of the way, we will be awash in oil. There is no such thing as pollution, apparently; except maybe GMO, and yet you will hardly find a people more supportive of the 'farmer.' Too, save the fetus, yank all the disabled, incapacitated, poor off the dole? Jesus as corporate bag man, in service to usurers. To call them conservative is a misnomer; retrograde conservers of stark ideology, in righteous indignation. Everybody should be packing heat, right?

Even as I sympathize with their distaste for the abuses of government, esp the degree to which government has become a thing to micromanage every little thing. For instance, something mundane - I want to do some simple electrical wiring for my employer. It is not rocket science. Simple stuff, but according to gov I cannot, my employer must hire a licensed electrician @ $75-$400/hr plus trip charge, inflating the cost by 10x. Is there a course I can take to be certified to do simple wiring? Nope. Do I NEED certification to wire an outlet, a light? Not really. Gov saying I can't is just glorified graft, a high class racket. Something Dems and Liberal types just don't often get. The degree to which gov facilitates institutional corruption is just a necessary evil apparently.

Which it seems to me dems and lib types treat gov a lot like tea party folk and assorted conservative types treat the market. Blind faith.

WHD

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: Debt Ceiling Political Crisis
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2013, 10:14:51 AM »
Eddie "The Tea Party is not the grass roots movement towards fiscal responsibility that it started out to be. It's a fine example of how the real elites can infiltrate and co-opt the platform of any grass roots movement they choose to, and then turn it to to their own ends.

With enough media bucks spent, anyone (like the Koch bros, for instance) can fool most of the people all of the time."

Eddie, do you think they could fool us?
We'll swallow it hook, line, and sinker, nobody, if it appeals to our prejudices... I've seen a lot of that these past couple days.   Eddie however does seem pretty clear headed.  And I have to thank William because I was about ready to walk away.  I have to wonder if people are even stopping to think about where their information is coming from and if their sources have an axe to grind.  Where are people getting their information about the Tea Party rank-and-file?  Are they their neighbors? co-workers? clients?  Do they meet them in the streets? at the stores? at town council meetings?   Can you say "one in a thousand" if you don't even personally know one hundred?  Or is all this information being filtered through media sources, both mass media and vocal bloggers?

But William really is on the right track.... and I can't find who said it, but I really like the "left boot, right boot" analogy... neither big government nor big corporations are on our side, but the big media is trying to get us to choose which boot we want smashing our face down on the pavement, and we get to change sides every couple years.  The Tea Party is right about big government, and Occupy Wall Street is right about big corporations, and if people could see that, then maybe we would have a chance to throw both boots off.

People aren't clueless, they know something's wrong, they just don't necessarily know what.  They do look for someone to blame, or someone to fix it, or someone to tell them everything will be all right, but they really know the problems are there.
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

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Re: Debt Ceiling Political Crisis
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2013, 11:09:58 AM »
JD I was afraid you might jump ship; glad you didn't.  It was why I threw my (utterly facetious) 2 cents in.  And it isn't entirely lost on me that I counter the "evil" concept sometimes and then support Surly's use of it (I just really liked that rant).  I don't think ACA really survived the ins. lobbies and I looked at the Tea Baggers initially years ago and was very quickly disallusioned.  Other than that, I don't know enough to comment and ought not to.  I often go by instinct instead of fact and oddly do better this way...I do "feel" the tea party thing should have died already considering what it's becoming and I am alarmed that it hasn't.  If I researched it enough, I might just intelligently support this but I have other fish to fry.  Maybe we can agree to disagree?

Offline Surly1

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Re: Debt Ceiling Political Crisis
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2013, 02:05:28 PM »
I have to wonder if people are even stopping to think about where their information is coming from and if their sources have an axe to grind.  Where are people getting their information about the Tea Party rank-and-file?  Are they their neighbors? co-workers? clients?  Do they meet them in the streets? at the stores? at town council meetings?   Can you say "one in a thousand" if you don't even personally know one hundred?  Or is all this information being filtered through media sources, both mass media and vocal bloggers?

JD, you have been  here for *HOW* long and you can ask such a question, like we're all mindless drones who need a media filter to cut our meat for us? You've been ere long enough that you can't get away with such a disingenuous pose. If you pay attention to the news, their own statements are quite enough to tell you everything you need to know to form an opinion.

http://www.alternet.org/tea-party-and-right/10-remarkably-stupid-right-wing-statements-about-shutdown-and-obamacare

And let's take a tour of the greatest hits collection, shall we?

Quote
"I hope that's not where we're going, but you know if this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies and saying my goodness what can we do to turn this country around? I'll tell you the first thing we need to do is take Harry Reid out." —Nevada GOP Senate candidate Sharron Angle, floating the possibility of armed insurrection by conservatives, interview with right-wing radio host Lars Larson, Jan. 14, 2010

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"I've always been fascinated by the fact that here was a relatively small country (Nazi Germany) that from a strictly military point of view accomplished incredible things." —Ohio GOP House candidate and Tea Party favorite Rich Iott, explaining why for years he donned a German Waffen SS uniform and participated in Nazi re-enactments as part of a group that calls itself Wiking, Oct. 2010

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"Do you know, where does this phrase 'separation of church and state' come from? It was not in Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists. ... The exact phrase 'separation of Church and State' came out of Adolph Hitler's mouth, that's where it comes from. So the next time your liberal friends talk about the separation of Church and State, ask them why they're Nazis." —Glen Urquhart, the Tea Party-backed Republican nominee for the Delaware House seat held by Rep. Mike Castle, April 2010

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"Our nation was founded on violence. The option is on the table. I don't think that we should ever remove anything from the table as it relates to our liberties and our freedoms." —Tea Party-backed Texas GOP congressional candidate Stephen Broden, suggesting the violent overthrow of the U.S. government if Republicans don't win at the ballot box, interview with Dallas's WFAA-TV, Oct. 21, 2010

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"I absolutely do not believe in the science of man-caused climate change. It's not proven by any stretch of the imagination...It's far more likely that it's just sunspot activity or just something in the geologic eons of time. Excess carbon dioxide in the atmosphere 'gets sucked down by trees and helps the trees grow.'" —Wisconsin GOP Senate candidate Ron Johnson, Aug. 16, 2010, doing his best MKing impression

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"I heard just before I came some senator from Arizona..."A guy that liked Qadaffi before he wanted to bomb him, a guy that liked Mubarak before he wanted him out, a guy that's been to Syria and supported Al-Qaeda and rebels." But he was saying today 'The shutdown has been a fool's errand.' And I agree with him. The President and Harry Reid should not have shut this government down." Rep. Louis Gohmert, referring to Sen. John McCain

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And I am concerned. They are shipping all the, I'm concerned about the microchips. That they are in many, many of the things that we own. And some of those are embedded, I believe, with, with detection and, uh, capabilities or tracking capabilities.  - Rep. Vicky Hartzler, concerned that the Chinese are spying on us through their toasters

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"Just because the Supreme Court rules on something doesn't necessarily mean that that's constitutional. What that means is that that's what they decided on that particular day given the makeup of the Court on that particular day. And the left in this country has done an extraordinary job of stacking the courts in their favor. So what we have to do as a body of Congress is say, "look, just because the courts" - and I hear this all the time from Republicans - they say that the court is the arbitrator and after the arbitration is done, that's the rules we have to live under and we can go forth and make legislation given those rules. That's not the case. A perfect example if Obamacare. Obamacare is not constitutional, the individual mandate." -- Rep.Jim Bridenstine of Oklahoma

We could go on and on and on-- it's actually entertaining, and I have spared you the poetic stylings of Mmes. Bachmann and Palin-- but the TP has given rise the single most dysfunctional Houses of Congress to ever place ambition, vainglory and good sense ahead of the welfare of the nation.

But William really is on the right track.... and I can't find who said it, but I really like the "left boot, right boot" analogy... neither big government nor big corporations are on our side, but the big media is trying to get us to choose which boot we want smashing our face down on the pavement, and we get to change sides every couple years.  The Tea Party is right about big government, and Occupy Wall Street is right about big corporations, and if people could see that, then maybe we would have a chance to throw both boots off.

People aren't clueless, they know something's wrong, they just don't necessarily know what.  They do look for someone to blame, or someone to fix it, or someone to tell them everything will be all right, but they really know the problems are there.

The "boot" analogy was from Uncle Bob, I believe.

Of all the things that really frost my balls, the faux centrism of "both sides do it" is the worst. Without doubt, both parties are corrupt and what elections change primarily is what set of crooks get paid from the public coffers. But the vandalism-- there really is no other word-- the vandalism of the Tea Party, and their willingness to take down the economy of the country and the world is a form of extremism that is pretty new on the political scene. Certainly in my lifetime anyhow. Both sides were not using the budget process and the debt ceiling to achieve through hostage taking and extortion what they failed to achieve through the normal legislative process-- 40 failed and meaningless votes to repeal the ACA notwithstanding.

If you want to say that government is unresponsive to the people it ostensibly is here to serve, I'm with you. If you want to sat that both parties are utterly corrupt and bought, I'll hold your coat. But there is nothing on what passes for the "left" side of politics (actually the center right, as no Left is permitted in the FSA) in this country that is the moral equivalent of this gang of hired thugs straight from the pages of Lord of the Flies.

For the last word on centrism, Charles Pierce, il miglior fabbro:

Quote
There are three kinds of people who claim to be centrists in this country today. There are embarrassed Republicans. There are lazy people. And there are liars. There is no fourth alternative. We have seen vividly the intellectual exhaustion of self-proclaimed centrists in the laughable attempts to blame both sides for the reign of the morons. We have seen vividly the intellectual dishonesty of self-proclaimed centrists demonstrated by the No Labels and Fix The Debt scams, both of which involve little more than selling out the social safety-net. We even seen the intellectual vacuity of self-proclaimed centrists in the results of this poll, in which we see some vague mumbling about the deficit that will eat us in our beds, but a strong desire to raise taxes on the very wealthiest among us, which I guarantee you none of the people who proclaim their centrism the loudest believes is a centrist position.

"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline Mister Roboto

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Re: Debt Ceiling Political Crisis
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2013, 05:46:11 PM »
Quote
Where are people getting their information about the Tea Party rank-and-file?  Are they their neighbors? co-workers? clients?  Do they meet them in the streets? at the stores? at town council meetings?   Can you say "one in a thousand" if you don't even personally know one hundred?  Or is all this information being filtered through media sources, both mass media and vocal bloggers?

I had a teatard on my Facebook friends list.  I ended up deleting and blocking him when he started badgering (and I mean seriously haranguing) me on my birthday about a link I posted criticizing Donald Trump for breathing new life into that racist "birther" nonsense.  It was the day after Osama Bin Laden was iced by the Navy Seals, so I'm pretty sure he was butthurt that this occured on Barack Obama's watch.  (Immediately after the news came out about OBL, he Facebook Liked "George W. Bush".)  In fact, pretty much the entire lot of the talk-radio-listening  buttheads who took over the Tea Party movement reacted to the news not with patriotism or even relief that an alleged dangerous terrorist was gone, but rather with partisan petulance and butthurt.  I'm with Driftglass that these people are a complete wash as citizens, in addition to being fucking morons.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 05:53:27 PM by Mister Roboto »

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: Debt Ceiling Political Crisis
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2013, 08:44:12 PM »
I have to wonder if people are even stopping to think about where their information is coming from and if their sources have an axe to grind.  Where are people getting their information about the Tea Party rank-and-file?  Are they their neighbors? co-workers? clients?  Do they meet them in the streets? at the stores? at town council meetings?   Can you say "one in a thousand" if you don't even personally know one hundred?  Or is all this information being filtered through media sources, both mass media and vocal bloggers?

JD, you have been  here for *HOW* long and you can ask such a question, like we're all mindless drones who need a media filter to cut our meat for us? You've been ere long enough that you can't get away with such a disingenuous pose. If you pay attention to the news, their own statements are quite enough to tell you everything you need to know to form an opinion.
Thank you, that was a "yes".... because the people you quoted were all part of the leadership.  I'm talking about the person on the street.  The kind I deal with on a daily basis.  And for every one that is an ideologue spouting the party line, there are a dozen who are like William: they don't really believe in the whole Tea Party platform, but they are upset with the way the government is being run.
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: Debt Ceiling Political Crisis
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2013, 09:06:43 PM »
I had a teatard on my Facebook friends list.  I ended up deleting and blocking him when he started badgering (and I mean seriously haranguing) me on my birthday about a link I posted criticizing Donald Trump for breathing new life into that racist "birther" nonsense.  It was the day after Osama Bin Laden was iced by the Navy Seals, so I'm pretty sure he was butthurt that this occured on Barack Obama's watch.  (Immediately after the news came out about OBL, he Facebook Liked "George W. Bush".)  In fact, pretty much the entire lot of the talk-radio-listening  buttheads who took over the Tea Party movement reacted to the news not with patriotism or even relief that an alleged dangerous terrorist was gone, but rather with partisan petulance and butthurt.  I'm with Driftglass that these people are a complete wash as citizens, in addition to being fucking morons.
Okay you have my sympathy on that one... Someone who harangues you over something that the Supreme Court has already decided it won't hear because it would be too troublesome is a fucking moron.  And I too was disgusted by people that did act petulant about getting rid of a dangerous CIA-trained mujahideen gone rogue.
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline RE

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Re: Debt Ceiling Political Crisis
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2013, 10:06:49 PM »
IMHO, the Tea Party suffers from a few problems.

First off is the folks who have dropped in as Spokespersons for the movement. Sara Palin, Brandon Smith, Karl Denninger, Michele Bachmann et al.  Karl actually is a Beacon of Near-Sanity in this group.  LOL.

Then of course you got the issue of who dropped in as Chief Financial Backers, the Koch Bros.

Regardless of whether this bunch of assholes reflects the Rank & File of the Tea Party, this is what has come of it so far on the political level, and when you talk Koch Money, that is a lot of clout.  So even assuming your average Tea Party believer is a fairly normal person just upset with Big Goobermint and High Taxes and is not rabidly Racist, the party is pretty well poisoned by its leadership.

Then you got the problem of general Platform ideas, most of which are either wrong or won't work.  About the only thing I can agree with the TP on is that everybody should be Packing Heat.  LOL.

Reducing the size and scope of Goobermint is a good idea in Abstract, but not in Practice as long as you have Big Corporations ready to POUNCE as soon as Regulations get removed or evicerated.  If it was not for the EPA for instance, the environment in the FSoA by now would be far worse than it is in China.  We were well on the way to that in the 60s and 70s with places like Love Canal.

Reducing Taxation is a good idea in abstract, but bad in practice if it ends up with lots of folks starving or begging on the streets for food because you can't fund any kind of Safety Net.  A large society requires something like this, Private Charities just don't have the resources to handle the problem on the mass scale.  This is why Otto von Bismark came up with the idea of the Social Welfare State to begin with.

You also cannot divorce the Tea Party from the Christian Right Wing either, with their combination of Anti-Abortion ideals while at the SAME time defunding programs like Head Start, Food Stamps et al.  While I am sure some Tea Party advocates are not Far-Right Christian ideologues, again the Spokespeople generally are and the Base Constituency comes from areas of the country where this attitude is very strong.

There is some commonality with OWS in that the Tea Party also is focused on the disappearing Middle Class and ostensibly anti-1%ers, but you do not find TPers generally protesting against Monsanto or Big Oil, and they do not generally recognize Climate Change as a problem either.

The problem with both the Tea Party and OWS is neither really presents a set of ideas which could at least ameliorate the problems we face, because neither movement really recognizes the gravity of the Energy problem, and they don't understand the Monetary System either.  It is all well and good to want to see the Debt-Money system taken down (I certainly want to see that), but ideas presented like switching over to a Gold backed currency and dumping Fractional Reserve banking won't work, IMHO.  The system we have will lock-up, and the situation we have will get worse in a big hurry.

What we need is a Party to develop around ideas of Sustainability, not around political ideologies that have their roots in the Socialist and Capitalist systems that developed as a response to the Age of Oil.

RE
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Offline Surly1

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Re: Debt Ceiling Political Crisis
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2013, 04:05:47 AM »
Thank you, that was a "yes".... because the people you quoted were all part of the leadership.  I'm talking about the person on the street.  The kind I deal with on a daily basis.  And for every one that is an ideologue spouting the party line, there are a dozen who are like William: they don't really believe in the whole Tea Party platform, but they are upset with the way the government is being run.

There are many people who don't like the way the government is being run. I correspond with many of them on FB and elsewhere; occasionally across the dinner table. THe local Occupy efforts had a substantial representation of libertarians as well, at least in the early days. Proved to be a mix of oil and water.

My personal and firsthand experience is very much like what Charlie Pierce describes as the "five minute rule" when listening to a member of the Paul family speak. Five five minutes what they say sounds perfectly agreeable and reasonable, especially when talking about governmental overreach, drones, civil liberties, et al... but at the 5:01 mark, look out! Cue the batshit crazy!

Last year I found myself at a gathering outside a local business that the City, using eminent domain, was attempting to acquire for a local university. (Am happy to report the university lost in court.) Listening to the speakers, it quickly became clear that the rally was a libertarian gathering. I spoke afterwards to one of the organizers, and asked why they didn't invite other groups to the rally, since there were many Occupiers and progressives who shared their concerns about governmental overreach, at all levels. She looked at me like I had grown another head. So there was that.

So my opinions on these matters are formed both by acquaintance with "vocal bloggers" and IRL exchanges. Contrary's son and nephew offer regular opinions, which to my mind validate the truth of the "five minute rule." reasonable for a time, then quickly veering off into Limbaughland.

My greatest concern is that the young generation of libertarians growing up have a theoretical attachment for the ideal of limited government but little knowledge of history and appreciation for the web of regulations and how they got that way. Certainly imperfect but better than, say, china, which RE has already detailed nicely. Am worried that within 20 ears, they'll be primed and ready for a man on horseback who, in the guide of "breaking it to fix it," will swoop in and make the trains run on time.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

 

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