AuthorTopic: Degrowth? (post growth, end of growth... economics)  (Read 7875 times)

Offline Surly1

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Re: Degrowth? (post growth, end of growth... economics)
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2014, 11:28:46 PM »
"Degrowth" is an English translation for a term some French people thunk up for it. It's become popular. Even though it may be an ugly word.

It's from French?  No wonder it sucks.  LOL.

RE

Really, RE?

What next, "Freedom fries?"

In the French Tradition, "Freedom is Surrender"  :icon_mrgreen:


RE

This from a guy whose neighbors have given a nation Princess Dumbass of the Northwoods.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline RE

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Re: Degrowth? (post growth, end of growth... economics)
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2014, 11:49:34 PM »
This from a guy whose neighbors have given a nation Princess Dumbass of the Northwoods.

Yea, like VA Pols are such Bright Bulbs?  At least Sara can shoot.  :icon_sunny:


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Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: Degrowth? (post growth, end of growth... economics)
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2014, 03:38:25 AM »
This from a guy whose neighbors have given a nation Princess Dumbass of the Northwoods.

Yea, like VA Pols are such Bright Bulbs?  At least Sara can shoot.  :icon_sunny:


RE

Maybe she cant find france on a map but is still good at french.  ;D
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Offline Surly1

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Re: Degrowth? (post growth, end of growth... economics)
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2014, 04:20:21 AM »
This from a guy whose neighbors have given a nation Princess Dumbass of the Northwoods.

Yea, like VA Pols are such Bright Bulbs?  At least Sara can shoot.  :icon_sunny:


RE

Maybe she cant find france on a map but is still good at french.  ;D

We're talking about a woman who, during her brief 15 minutes of fame, could NOT name ONE newspaper that she read regularly. NOT ONE.

Apparently the ability to pose with a firearm is sufficient for Alaskans to elevate her to their highest office, a post she sought until Rupert Murdoch made a better offer.

Politicians are a craven bunch on the whole; but this creature is the poster child for shamelessness and rank opportunism, IMO.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline JRM

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Re: Degrowth? (post growth, end of growth... economics)
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2014, 10:49:24 AM »

I think you misunderstand my concern.  I'm not hoping for a new glacial phase.  Glacial phases are quite deadly;  for a sample one can check out the plagues, famines and wars associated with the "little ice age".  A new glacial phase would be much worse.

Hmm. I thought you were hoping that the beginning of the natural (glacial) cooling phase -- which in climate history has been a very slow process -- would coincide with the rapid warming now occurring as a result of anthropogenic greenhouse gas forcing.  The idea being that the natural cooling would collide with the GHG caused warming, to the general benefit of all.

As for all of the other ecosystemic crises you mentioned, yes. We're in trouble even without adding climate catastrophe to the pile of troubles. Still, a couple of degrees C warming (since industrialism began) is probably enough to set in multiple self-reinforcing feedback loops leading to near total extinction of the biosphere (as we know it).

In any case, Snowleopard, I'm no longer clear why you mentioned the "long in the tooth" interglacial notion.  But the climate science seems to suggest that anthropogenic forcing might effectively cook the planet before the current interglacial gives way. I'm not sure how you shrug that one off.
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline DoomerSupport

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Re: Degrowth? (post growth, end of growth... economics)
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2014, 03:05:31 PM »
This from a guy whose neighbors have given a nation Princess Dumbass of the Northwoods.

Yea, like VA Pols are such Bright Bulbs?  At least Sara can shoot.  :icon_sunny:


RE

She can;t shoot as good as Cheney, though...

« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 05:49:13 PM by Haniel »

Offline RE

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Re: Degrowth? (post growth, end of growth... economics)
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2014, 04:27:31 PM »
We're talking about a woman who, during her brief 15 minutes of fame, could NOT name ONE newspaper that she read regularly. NOT ONE.

What's so weird about that?  I can't name any newspapers I read regularly either. :icon_scratch:

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Offline DoomerSupport

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Re: Degrowth? (post growth, end of growth... economics)
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2014, 05:49:47 PM »
We're talking about a woman who, during her brief 15 minutes of fame, could NOT name ONE newspaper that she read regularly. NOT ONE.

What's so weird about that?  I can't name any newspapers I read regularly either. :icon_scratch:

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The fact that people expected her to be able to read AFTER she opened her mouth?


Offline Surly1

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Re: Degrowth? (post growth, end of growth... economics)
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2014, 06:15:30 PM »
We're talking about a woman who, during her brief 15 minutes of fame, could NOT name ONE newspaper that she read regularly. NOT ONE.

What's so weird about that?  I can't name any newspapers I read regularly either. :icon_scratch:

RE

And what office are you running for?
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline Surly1

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Re: Degrowth? (post growth, end of growth... economics)
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2014, 06:18:57 PM »
This from a guy whose neighbors have given a nation Princess Dumbass of the Northwoods.

Yea, like VA Pols are such Bright Bulbs?  At least Sara can shoot.  :icon_sunny:


RE

She can;t shoot as good as Cheney, though...

How good a shot do you have to be to shoot a friend in the face with a shotgun?
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline DoomerSupport

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Re: Degrowth? (post growth, end of growth... economics)
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2014, 07:02:57 PM »
This from a guy whose neighbors have given a nation Princess Dumbass of the Northwoods.

Yea, like VA Pols are such Bright Bulbs?  At least Sara can shoot.  :icon_sunny:


RE

She can't shoot as good as Cheney, though...

How good a shot do you have to be to shoot a friend in the face with a shotgun?

I rest my case.

Offline Eddie

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Re: Degrowth? (post growth, end of growth... economics)
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2014, 09:41:54 AM »
(Eddie Smiles)

Haniel, real Southern rural people have a culture not that different than the one you described to me yesterday. It's just that they are scared of outsiders, as much as you are of them. LOL.

The Cheneys and Palins of the worlds do not represent ordinary people. They are sociopaths and opportunists.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Snowleopard

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Re: Degrowth? (post growth, end of growth... economics)
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2014, 06:38:43 PM »

I think you misunderstand my concern.  I'm not hoping for a new glacial phase.  Glacial phases are quite deadly;  for a sample one can check out the plagues, famines and wars associated with the "little ice age".  A new glacial phase would be much worse.

Hmm. I thought you were hoping that the beginning of the natural (glacial) cooling phase -- which in climate history has been a very slow process -- would coincide with the rapid warming now occurring as a result of anthropogenic greenhouse gas forcing.  The idea being that the natural cooling would collide with the GHG caused warming, to the general benefit of all.

I think the slow onset of the glacial phase is well underway.  It might have indeed moderated the recent warming some.  And, if i'm correct, it will aggravate the coming cooling trend.  The part that is unknown is: When does it start having a more noticible (deadly) impact?   Sometimes that impact can happen rapidly, as various frozen mammoths suggest.

As for all of the other ecosystemic crises you mentioned, yes. We're in trouble even without adding climate catastrophe to the pile of troubles. Still, a couple of degrees C warming (since industrialism began) is probably enough to set in multiple self-reinforcing feedback loops leading to near total extinction of the biosphere (as we know it).

I do not think anthropogenic GHGs caused enough of the recent warming to make a significant difference.  Certianly they have an effect, but i don't buy the theoretical positive feedbacks in climate models that can't be demonstrated to occur IRL.  All of those models predicted more warming in the last decade than occurred. 

More significant contributors to the recent warming were:  Natural cyclical rebound from the "little ice age", which ended just as industrialism got going strong,  the PDO / AMO warm phases, and a grand solar max.  Likewise the recent heating stopped when the sun "crashed" toward minimum (not there yet) and the PDO moved to cool phase.  The AMO has a longer cycle and has yet to switch.  The next warm phase will not have these cycles together as long or a solar max to support it.


In any case, Snowleopard, I'm no longer clear why you mentioned the "long in the tooth" interglacial notion.  But the climate science seems to suggest that anthropogenic forcing might effectively cook the planet before the current interglacial gives way. I'm not sure how you shrug that one off.

Most climate science positions today owe their existence to the so called "climate emergency".  Thirty years ago there were barely more than a hundred such positions worldwide, today there are thousands.  I would hardly expect them to suggest otherwise, as those who do so tend to have serious career challenges (unless they either have tenure or are retired).  When their suggested outcomes diverged greatly from reality, i started to study the matter myself.  I got aways to go yet.  But if CO2 continues to increase while temperature stalls or decreases, even j6pk will figure out it is not in the driver seat.



"A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest." -  Simon and Garfunkel

Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: Degrowth? (post growth, end of growth... economics)
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2014, 11:38:29 PM »
SL
You seem very well informed on how many climate scientists there were before and are now and what their temp predictions have been . Im wondering why CSIRO, NASA etc would want to fudge data when the govts that fund them are so reluctant to take any action?

Im also wondering why every time I hear anything on the radio they talk about a range of temp increase for air and ocean and they always say that the warming is in the range expected. Are they lying? Last year was the hottest on record here, and new years day this year was expected 50C /122F, Even hotter, I didnt watch the news in the evening to see if it got there or not.

We are adding the heat released by the hiroshima and nagasaki bombs every second that passes acording to some counts.

Maybe its not that hot in your nabe because the earth is like a burst zit off of the sun that cooled down enough for the outside layer to solidify and theres no new molten magma being added to the earths core so its got nothing to do except keep cooling down. Maybe its the extreme weather the climate science conspiracy is lying about. If theyre collectively wrong I want to know how and why.

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Offline RE

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Re: Degrowth? (post growth, end of growth... economics)
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2014, 12:50:49 AM »
I think because we are getting a rapidly shifting climate, Volatility has increased and so in some areas there are Lower Lows, while in others there are Higher Highs.

This is why it is difficult to get an "Average" or aggregate assessment over whether you have "Global Warming" or "Global Cooling" on the Atmospheric Level.

On the OCEAN level though, the evidence is Incontrovertible that we have Global Warming occurring:


Far as the entire SYSTEM is concerned, the Heat Content of the Oceans overwhelms the Heat Content of the Atmosphere, because the Specific Heat of Water is so much higher than that of the Gases which compose the Atmosphere.  The Ocean is the Heat Sink here, not the Atmosphere.

It remains entirely unclear how this plays itself out once the CO2 content in the atmosphere reaches the level of the PETM.  This is still a good ways down the line here even with rapid burning of hydrocarbons.  If melting clathrates significantly impact that will speed things up of course.

In any event, I don't see the system being unsurvivable for quite some time, although vast ocean die off will reduce food supply by a lot, and land based plants will have a tough time also.

However, Domes, Hydroponics, Aquaculture and other techniques can allow life to continue onward for Homo Sapiens for a good while to come, whether we end up with Cooking or Cooling at the atmospheric level.

Riding out the Storm will not be EZ.

WHEN THE CLIMATE GETS TOUGH, THE HELIOPATHS GET GOING.  :icon_sunny:
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I See this as a Challenge before the whole Human Race
And I ain't gonna LOSE!

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