AuthorTopic: Estrogen Testosterone Soup  (Read 6611 times)

Offline Eddie

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Re:Is it politically incorrect to beat a dead horse?
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2014, 07:34:21 AM »
Theres nothing wrong with feminism for equality, there is something wrong with abuses of power in treating men like nazis treated jews under the guise of feminism though. This all has diddly squat to do with eating meat

I would say "Wrong!" And here's why.

They are part of a pattern of erroneous thought and behavior that would be impossible if we didn't live in a world where ordinary people only have the most fleeting contact with the reality of their own existence.

Examples:

We decide women have been discriminated against. (Correct assumption).

Instead of deciding to behave more ethically toward women and doing that, we establish various laws and institutions designed to force better treatment. Once established, this legal framework allows certain women, who are far from the mainstream, to push through even more "reforms", many of which are questionable in value and eventually result in a host of unforeseen negative consequences. But we only add to the increasingly unwieldy framework of legislated morals, never take away. (Bad consequences)

Other laws designed to do good things like feed the poor, protect minority rights, and provide old age pensions to workers, have some of the same kind of negative consequences. Some of these involve transfer payments of wealth through taxation and entitlement programs. These get hollowed out and become conduit schemes. Much of the money meant for a good cause gets drained away by unscrupulous individuals hiding behind a corporate veil. More of it goes to a bloated government administrative layer. Only a trickle is left. (Bad consequences)

What does this have to do with vegetarians? I'm getting to that.

Back to the issue of distorted reality.

People in general are more driven by emotion than logic. This bears on what I outlined above, because we make these laws that are well-intentioned, because we "feel" for people whom we perceive as being treated unfairly, or needing assistance.

In our individual lives, we also are faced with making choices. An individual, seeing the horrors of chickens being raised in boxes and living their entire short miserable lives standing in their own shit, we FEEL bad. Because that IS bad. (Correct assumption).

One might also read that eating too much red meat is unhealthy. (Correct assumption)

That person might decide that they could just as well live without eating meat. It FEELs like a healthier, more humane choice. (Wrong assumption with potential bad consequences).

This well meaning individual has made a decision that hurts them (high chance of getting pernicious anemia, sooner or later), and they hurt the organic farmers who are going broke trying to compete with Big Ag).  By abstaining from eating ALL meat, they vote with their feet, against sustainable practice.)

In both the instance of non-discrimination laws aimed at helping women (enacted by us collectively) and the instance of going vegetarian (a personal decision by a well meaning individual) our FEELINGS have pushed us into bad decision making.

One also might see that corporations test cosmetics by using cute bunny rabbits, and that some of the bunny rabbits get ugly tumors, or have their eyes ruined in the process. Anyone with a heart FEELS bad about this. This animal testing is wrong. (Correct assumption)

So that person joins a group that works politically to eliminate the unethical treatment of research animals. The platform not only works to eliminate using animals to test cosmetics though. It also works to eliminate the use of dogs for test surgeries in research hospitals. ( Bad consequences, because dog surgeries have a long proven track record of helping us learn how to save human lives.)

But it FEELS good. See where I'm coming from? Okay, let me add the last layer on the cake.

As a society, we REWARD the bad decisions. We do this by expressing our collective disapproval for individuals who might not agree with some of the shitty decisions that have been made, and are vocal enough to complain. This is what is known as enforcing POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.

The media (which exists only to sell products to consumers) REINFORCES political correctness by telling watchers EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANT TO HEAR. That system has nothing at all to do with ethics or correct decision making. It's about getting the consumer to IDENTIFY with a certain group. Marketers could care less if feminists are right or wrong. They just want to sell feminist cigarettes and feminist alcohol.

None of any of the things I'm talking about would ever happen in a society that was local, where individuals and groups confront reality face on. It happens because of the complexity of our world, and because most of our decisions are made in a very abstract way that is based entirely on feelings and we don't necessarily directly feel the impacts of our poor decisions, at least not for a long time. By the time we feel the negative consequences we may not even connect the dots.

This is all I'm going to say on this. I don't mean to beat a dead horse.

Is beating a dead horse politically incorrect?.

I don't know. But if you even had to think about it, for one split second, whether it is, or isn't,  that proves my point.









« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 08:19:02 AM by Eddie »
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re:Is it politically incorrect to beat a dead horse?
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2014, 08:25:49 AM »
One also might see that corporations test cosmetics by using cute bunny rabbits, and that some of the bunny rabbits get ugly tumors, or have their eyes ruined in the process. Anyone with a heart FEELS bad about this. This animal testing is wrong. (Correct assumption)

So that person joins a group that works politically to eliminate the unethical treatment of research animals. The platform not only works to eliminate using animals to test cosmetics though. It also works to eliminate the use of dogs for test surgeries in research hospitals. ( Bad consequences, because dog surgeries have a long proven track record of helping us learn how to save human lives.)
I am all for testing surgeries on dogs, IF THE DOGS ARE SICK TO BEGIN WITH, and, the surgeon is actually trying to make the dog better.  There are plenty of pets that get sick every day that can be funneled into the system.  I know I would be willing if one of my dogs were facing a life-threatening illness to have them undergo an experimental surgery.  Not only do I think it is inhumane to perform surgery on healthy animals (or worse make animals sick to test them), but I do not believe the results will be valid for sick people.  I trust the "long proven track record" about as much as the tobacco companies' research on nicotine.
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline Eddie

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Re: Sick dogs and dead horses
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2014, 08:41:43 AM »
Then JD, I suppose you don't know anyone who ever had open heart surgery. No one who was born with a transposition of the Great Vessels, or a patent ductus, or any number of other conditions that might have once been fatal, but now are perfectly treatable.

All those now routine surgeries were figured out in the dog lab, mostly at Johns Hopkins, in the middle of the 20th Century.

I'm not recommending people sacrifice their pets and working dogs. But every single day in this country, many hundreds or even thousands of dogs are euthanized, because people FEEL they WANT a pet, and then abandon the dog they can't even train to pee outside.

I'm sorry, but doing surgeries on "sick" dogs while it sounds good, isn't practical, for many reasons. But I understand why you FEEL the way you do.



« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 08:43:14 AM by Eddie »
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: Sick dogs and dead horses
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2014, 12:31:18 PM »
Then JD, I suppose you don't know anyone who ever had open heart surgery. No one who was born with a transposition of the Great Vessels, or a patent ductus, or any number of other conditions that might have once been fatal, but now are perfectly treatable.

...

I'm sorry, but doing surgeries on "sick" dogs while it sounds good, isn't practical, for many reasons. But I understand why you FEEL the way you do.
LOL and I understand why you FEEL the way you do, that human life is sacred... but death is inevitable.  Your definition of "perfectly treatable" and mine are quite different.  I do know some people who have had open heart surgery and managed to hang on to life for a while, but I don't know any who ever became truly healthy again.  And when it comes to someone I love, yes, I want to do whatever is possible to save them, even if it is for a few years more, but I do NOT claim to be on the side of rationality, as you do, Eddie. 
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: Estrogen Testosterone Soup
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2014, 03:54:24 PM »
Scattered thoughts that I cant bother framing into an argument also because I dont want to argue for a particular side as its an open question for me.

Iron supplement or eating lotsa spinach and greens would ward off anaemia?

Most vegetarians are slim, so those benefits outweigh a lot of other negatives re health.

We have lost the right (here)to have a proper definition of "free range", another big ag corporate triumph. KFC can and do now claim their chickens are all free range.

I never see any meat at the butcher or butcher section of a supermarket labelled organic. But I did notice when I was in the city the fattiness and wateriness of all the meat getting worse and largely unsatisfying (chemicals aside). Since I came here and I know the butcher who is a neighbor, drive past his slaughterhouse everyday, and get the meat from the town 20miles away and see all the animals on the way there, it is sooooooooo much better and satisfying. Even mincemeat is all lean and not half fat.

Since moving to the country I now have serious doubts about the oft quoted fact that raising meat takes a lot more land and water like 100 times more than vegetables, it looks to me like less. I just cant see it. If it rains every now and then the grass is green and the animals piss all the time without even needing to drink water. If it does get dry say after a month or 2 of no rain Im sure they would not drink more than a couple litres each at the most a day. Fruit trees and vegetables need a lot of water every day and a lot of input into the soil, not like grass.

I agree with eddie about forced fixes failures, the worst part is the more it fails the more the people on cushy jobs as identified victims say the problem is lack of spending and so the budgets grow. Even autoworkers now treated as an endangered and protected species when their factories close, are getting promised massive sums of money averaging out to at least 100K each, but they themselves dont see any of it.

I probably don't make sense in my approach that its not my problem what other people put into their bodies, they should know themselves. The exception with food is my children and the exception with drugs is my patients. I dont give a toss who doesnt like it if I review the medication, they like it when the guy gets well, and everyone likes it if the kids stay well, 'an apple a day' and all.

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