AuthorTopic: Official California Dustbowl Thread  (Read 103094 times)

Offline g

  • Golden Oxen
  • Contrarian
  • Master Chef
  • *
  • Posts: 12280
    • View Profile
Re: Who Goes Dry First? Vegas or Phoenix?
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2014, 12:33:56 PM »
So, tell me,...., where will Palo Verde get its water for cooling the two reactors and spent fuel pools?  The plant is located out in the desert, west of Phoenix and uses treated sewage water for cooling, but once the city goes dry what becomes of a reactor full of fuel that must be cooled for ten years before it can be dry casked and move?????

Inquiring minds want to know!   :o

Hi RandyC, You bring up a point that was brought home to me by James Howard Kunstler in a podcast he aired a while back with a remarkable woman, Alice Friedmann. She has a way at looking at concrete and the way these things were built and why that sure makes it hard to be a lite doomer. She look for a fast crash and is a very persuasive lady.  :'(

If you or any diners are interested I can assure you that it won't be a waste of time. Brief intro and link below

  Yakking with Alice Friedman of Energy Skeptic. com

Alice Friedemann insists she is not an academic, but publishes on a wide variety of contemporary scientific issues bearing on the fate of industrial civilization. She subscribes to a scenario that she calls the “fast crash.” She worked for 25 years as a systems architect and engineer in the corporate world, or “Dilbert-Land” as she calls it, before dropping out to write full time. Her science and economic essays can be found at her website: Energyskeptic.com. Alice is also a cookbook writer and blogger at the website Wholegrainalice.com She lives in Berkeley, California.
 
kunstler.com/podcast/4865/   :icon_study:  :-\

Offline agelbert

  • Global Moderator
  • Master Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 11820
    • View Profile
    • Renewable Rervolution
Re: Who Goes Dry First? Vegas or Phoenix?
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2014, 01:17:18 PM »
Eddie,
In regard to Vegas and Phoenix going dry first competition, Vegas is FIRST (although coastal cities near sea level (e.g. NOT san Francisco is high but Miami, New Orleans, Tampa and New York City are LOW) will be "New Venice" by then.  :evil4:

The higher the desert terrain the more rapid the evaporation rate. That's why Vegas, even with the big dam, is first to undergo severe water problems. An ancient civilization actually experienced multi-decade drought and handled it rather well. They designed their city to take advantage of the monsoon event so they could thrive during the rest of the extremely dry year: Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dnsatmxY7Kc#t=1032

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/dnsatmxY7Kc#t=1032#&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/dnsatmxY7Kc#t=1032#&fs=1</a>

Randy,
A nuclear reactor CAN be cooled without water. 

Of course they don't want to do that (they are TECHNICALLY "water cooled", after all). The REASON they are water cooled is because it is CHEAPER to make US pay for the water resource while they get the profits. IF a giant refrigeration coil set up was engineered (VERY old technology now with better and more efficient refrigerant fluids) to cool the reactor water in a never ending cycle so the nuke DID NOT have to grab any more water, the reactor could be cooled, no matter how dry the area. The MINOR problem with THAT is that the radioactive white elephant has to use VAST amounts of it's electrical output just to cool the water before boiling it to 600C again to power the steam turbines. IOW, the POS called a nuclear reactor is even MORE of welfare queen on the taxpayer dime than before!

But thanks for bringing it up. There's another point that should be brought up. It will cost over one TRILLION (with a T! - figures as of the year 2000 - it may be a "bit" higher NOW  :P :( ) dollars to decommission the nukes we have, just in the USA. Ask MKing how much of that he should pay. You KNOW what his answer will be...

Shut em' all down and charge every fuck that made money off the utilities that had them for the decommissioning, PERIOD!
Leges         Sine    Moribus      Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

Offline Randy C

  • Foxsteader
  • Bussing Staff
  • *
  • Posts: 244
    • View Profile
Re: Who Goes Dry First? Vegas or Phoenix?
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2014, 05:51:46 PM »
So, tell me,...., where will Palo Verde get its water for cooling the two reactors and spent fuel pools?  The plant is located out in the desert, west of Phoenix and uses treated sewage water for cooling, but once the city goes dry what becomes of a reactor full of fuel that must be cooled for ten years before it can be dry casked and move?????

Inquiring minds want to know!   :o

Hi RandyC, You bring up a point that was brought home to me by James Howard Kunstler in a podcast he aired a while back with a remarkable woman, Alice Friedmann. She has a way at looking at concrete and the way these things were built and why that sure makes it hard to be a lite doomer. She look for a fast crash and is a very persuasive lady.  :'(

If you or any diners are interested I can assure you that it won't be a waste of time. Brief intro and link below

  Yakking with Alice Friedman of Energy Skeptic. com

Alice Friedemann insists she is not an academic, but publishes on a wide variety of contemporary scientific issues bearing on the fate of industrial civilization. She subscribes to a scenario that she calls the “fast crash.” She worked for 25 years as a systems architect and engineer in the corporate world, or “Dilbert-Land” as she calls it, before dropping out to write full time. Her science and economic essays can be found at her website: Energyskeptic.com. Alice is also a cookbook writer and blogger at the website Wholegrainalice.com She lives in Berkeley, California.
 
kunstler.com/podcast/4865/   :icon_study:  :-\

I read Alice's blog Energy Skeptic on a monthly basis and she is a good analyst.  Aging and surveillance of missile airframes was of interest to me in my former life.  Concrete and lots of other things have service lives as well and that does not bode well for the nuclear industry.

Thanks for the link, I need to take time to listen to that podcast.
RC

Offline Randy C

  • Foxsteader
  • Bussing Staff
  • *
  • Posts: 244
    • View Profile
Re: Who Goes Dry First? Vegas or Phoenix?
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2014, 07:33:47 PM »
Agelbert,
I was thinking the same thing, install a refrigeration system to keep the shut down reactor cool so as not to need the water...

But what still amazes me is that fifty years ago, GE and others were designing doomsday machines based on the assumption that nothing would ever go wrong, or that the system as we know it (industrial civilization) could possibly come unglued, apart from a nuclear war.  So short sighted.  Here we are standing at the edge of the abyss and it will take at least ten years to cool the last of the fuel if all were shut down now and another fifty to decommission all these reactors.  Look how long it has taken to clean up Hanford Reservation and they still are not done. 

Nuclear power is a very good reason to move west and north, get up wind so that you will suffer less of the effects of all the spent fuel pool fires that are sure to come, and no, I don't expect MKing will pay for any of this.  He will probably try to tell you that ionizing radiation is good for you as Ann Coulter did on Faux News....

Offline agelbert

  • Global Moderator
  • Master Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 11820
    • View Profile
    • Renewable Rervolution
Re: Who Goes Dry First? Vegas or Phoenix?
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2014, 08:18:14 PM »
Randy said,
Quote
Nuclear power is a very good reason to move west and north, get up wind so that you will suffer less of the effects of all the spent fuel pool fires that are sure to come, and no, I don't expect MKing will pay for any of this.  He will probably try to tell you that ionizing radiation is good for you as Ann Coulter did on Faux News....

Yep.  :(  Back in 2011 (when the Fukushima poisoning of the planet began) I read some comments from a chagrined nuclear power plant pipe inspector. About a decade before, he had moved to Hawaii because continental USA radionuclide leaks.

The BIG problem nobody talks about (and I learned from him) is embrittlement of pipes, something that DOES NOT happen in any other high temperature liquid handling operation INCLUDING geothermal with identical or higher fluid temperatures.

Embrittlement is caused by Deuterium and Tritium (short lived radionuclide isotopes of hydrogen). They have never figured out a way to overcome it. In fact, just plain old hydrogen tanks (non-radioactive) have a problem with embrittlement (but not as severe as with the radioactive stuff).

The myriad pipes in a nuclear power plant get microscopic cracks that grow. The bad ass radionuclides then leak in to the ground and/or the air while the nuke managers strenuously deny it.

More cancer for the kids around the nukes is a SURE THING. The pipe inspector decided to go to a place far, far away from any nuclear contaminated place like the lower 48.

There's a lesson there, I think. And that is, we are going to have to deal with this SHIT once and for all because it is not going away any time soon.

Here's a recent bit of "polite discussion"  ;D  I pitched at a nuke puke pushing hormesis (eating a uranium sandwich every day is GOOD for ya!) and all sorts of assorted bullshit about how benign nukes are and radionuclides do not bioaccumulate (YES THEY DO!  )  up the food chain into higher and more lethal concentrations with the old "solution to nuclear pollution is oceanic dilution " monstrous ethics free propaganda.

Quote
Bill Scutt claims his hero is right in claiming "live in a radioactive world and we are superbly adapted to it". I guess he didn't read the extensive testing on Drosophila Melanogaster in the 1930s, long before the bomb. Do you know what mutagenetic means, Bill?

mu·ta·gen (myt-jn, -jn)
n.
 An agent, such as ultraviolet light or a radioactive element, that can induce or increase the frequency of mutation in an organism.

muta·genic adj.

muta·geni·cal·ly adv.

muta·ge·nici·ty (-j-ns-t) n.

Tests on fruit flies proved the severe mutagenenicity of radiation on offspring that did not go away, but increased with each subsequent generation; even though only the first had been given radiation doses THAT DID NOT KILL the fruit flies so they lived an average life span.

What next, Bill? Are getting ready to tell us radiation is "good" for us too? That's rather old AND LETHALLY ERRONEOUS news.

Long before the bomb gave you crazies all those lethal toys, there was a "radiation is good for you" craze in this country. The popularity of this "wonder therapy" didn't last. Here's the story, Bill. I guess you never got the word or are paid well to push pro-nuke mendacity.

"In the early 1900s, radiation was considered to have healing properties and was used in products for a range of conditions, including wrinkles and arthritis. The dangers of radiation became well known after the death of prominent American tennis player and industrialist Eben Byers, who said he drank three bottles of radium-laced water each day."  (Google it!)
 
Of course the pro-nuclear advocates never got the word and that's how "Nuclear Medicine" was born as a way to charge for nuclear power plant "products". Never mind that short half life tracers can all be made in a cyclotron without the risk, expense and pollution of building a large nuclear power plant, eh Bill?

Did the plant operators hire used car salesmen to sell "nuclear medicine" products to hospitals? We may never know but the pitch was, unfortunately for many, world class. In the 1950s 0ne of ten people were expected to get cancer in their life time. Now it's one out of three. Yes, fossil fuels and chemical industry pollutants contributed but the nuclear power plants are a major, proven, epidemiological studies source of cancer clusters. (Google it!)

But that game is up. Do you know what tyrosine kinase enzymes are, Bill? If you are a biologist scientist, you should. It's linked to over 90 percent of all cancers.

You see, radiation (not a lot Bill, not enough to kill you Bill, just enough to be above that pesky limit you wear those badges in nuclear power plants for) UPREGULATES those enzymes in human tissue.

All mammals have them in every cell. They are part of the apoptosis clock that tells cells when to die.

Guess what? When upregulation from radiation exposure occurs, the TKE "forgets" to tell a cell it is time to die and, instead, accelerates cell division!

That gives us what is known as a tumor. Whether it is benign or malignant is beyond the scope of this post but you can be certain it does not do a human any good. We ARE NOT adapted to cancer from radiation caused TKE upregulation!

The word is out Bill. The nuclear BULL and profit over planet fraud is public knowledge thanks to real nuclear scientists with ethics like Arnie Gundersen of Fairwinds. I learned much of what I know from him.

He has chapter and verse on 3 mile island and it's "effects" on men, women, children and animals. It seems they weren't too "superbly adapted to radiation", Mr. Bill. You calloused bunch of nuclear advocates kept a tight lid on the epidemiological studies but they leaked. Tough luck for you conscience free folks, eh?

You people are right there with the 19th century snake oil salesmen and other entrepreneurs throughout history that are fast talkers doing anything for profit.

And earlier there was this scam:
"Eye drops containing bird dung were used from the 16th century through the 18th century to help treat eye infections." 

Radiation is WORSE, much much worse than bird dung, Bill because every subsequent generation will have more degraded DNA. That means, in addition to more cancers, more deformities and organ abnormalities so you can make money off of nuclear power plants. We are not going to put up with that criminal insanity any more.

I's over, Bill. Live with it.



Of course that didn't stop him so, after a bit more jousting, I just gave him the business, short and sweet (to which I earned the honorific of "crackpot"! Ad hominem means I vanquished that POS!).  :emthup: :icon_mrgreen::

Quote
A. G. Gelbert
June 24, 2014
Final Statement to Bill the "biologist" who, in so many words, is repeating the mantra that the solution to nuclear pollution is dilution. This totally ignores food chain realities expressed by the ingestion and concentration of radionuclides in bivalves and other bottom of the food chain filter feeders which are then ingested by fish, thereby increasing the concentration, not decreasing it (as Bill claims) in higher order life forms like Homo sapiens.



Cardiovascular disease and death increases in that area you claim "only" had increases in thyroid cancer are linked DIRECTLY to guess what radionuclide that is distributed uniformly in human muscle tissues? You obviously haven't looked at the Chernobyl effects data very closely. Also, you claim that my statement that 1 in three persons will get cancer at present is false. Google it! And yes Bill, the increase in cardiovascular disease and deaths, though you nukers will deny it, is definitely linked to radionuclide absorption in muscle tissue. It's not just about cholesterol and sugar! The radionuclide Ce-137 deposition map of the USA is public information LONG before Fufkushima.
Do you want to prepare a graph showing cancer and cardiovascular disease rate increases in this country and Ce-137 deposition from power plants and nuclear bomb tests? Probablt not. You will reach for your "correlation is not causation" straw.

If you really think my answer was long or disjointed and irrelevant, you have never read a research paper. If you want to descend into nitpicking minutiae to muddle the issues so I can be accused of getting "off topic" by the anonyMouse Steven, only for you to leap back to generalizations after I give you proof in a detailed answer, that again shows you are into propaganda, not science.

So, for the readers, I will present a really brief summary of the points I made . The proof is in that "long" answer I gave for those who have scientist level attention spans.

1. Mutagenicity of ionizing radiation was proven as far back as the discovery that Drosophila melanogaster has DOUBLE or more the mutation rate (none of said mutations beneficial, by the way) in an abandoned uranium mine. Of note to the readers is that Insects are more resistant to ionizing radiation than mammals because of the higher percentage of water in our tissues. One of the PRIMARY targets of therapy for cancer caused by radiation (Acute Radiation Sickness) are the non-receptor and receptor tyrosine kinase enzymes because of the PROVEN link between radionucllde exposure and tumorigenesis..

2. Target theory, as opposed to LNT is the only way to accurately measure damage from ionizing radiation. The damage is inversely proportional to the distance of the emitter. That is nuclear physics 101. Ingestion of radionuclides is far more damaging than the LNT standards people like Bill and AEC accept (wrongly and inaccurately) because the distance is in nanometers. I can give you a web sight where you can do the math on the group of photon energies for any radionuclide. At nanometer distances, it AIN'T PRETTY, Bill.

3. The main subject here, energy sources and COST, is defined rather selectively by the nukers to exclude AND minimize the health costs to, not just human populations, but the biosphere as a whole that we require to be a viable species, never mind a few centuries of baby sitting used fuel rod assemblies on the taxpayer dime. The facts prove that, not only is Renewable Energy cheaper, it is the only sustainable alternative because of it's potential for zero waste products that damage the life forms in the food chain vital to our existence. The only nuclear powered furnace we need is the sun. We not only can scale up to 100% renewable energy, any other option is unsustainable and undermines the viability of the biosphere and that of future generations of homo sapiens.

If you agree, please sign this petition to President Obama:

Demand Liberty From Fossil Fuels Through 100% Renewable Energy WWII Style Effort

Here's a link to the petition: http://www.care2.com/go/z/e/Ai3Tb

We did it with the Liberty Ship massive building effort in WWII; we can do it again with Renewable energy technology and infrastructure.

Thank you

Anthony G. Gelbert
Green Leaf Star American in the Service of Future Generations

« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 08:29:58 PM by agelbert »
Leges         Sine    Moribus      Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

Offline Surly1

  • Master Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 18654
    • View Profile
    • Doomstead Diner
Re: Who Goes Dry First? Vegas or Phoenix?
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2014, 03:18:05 AM »
But what still amazes me is that fifty years ago, GE and others were designing doomsday machines based on the assumption that nothing would ever go wrong, or that the system as we know it (industrial civilization) could possibly come unglued, apart from a nuclear war.  So short sighted.  Here we are standing at the edge of the abyss and it will take at least ten years to cool the last of the fuel if all were shut down now and another fifty to decommission all these reactors.  Look how long it has taken to clean up Hanford Reservation and they still are not done. 

Nuclear power is a very good reason to move west and north, get up wind so that you will suffer less of the effects of all the spent fuel pool fires that are sure to come, and no, I don't expect MKing will pay for any of this.  He will probably try to tell you that ionizing radiation is good for you as Ann Coulter did on Faux News....

MKing would tell you that radiation is "vitamin R."  Or refer you to CO2 science.com for some freshly minted obsequies to the fine work done by the fossil fuel industry.

And Hanford remains an existential threat just for the sheer volume of radioactive toxins stored there.
"...reprehensible lying communist..."

Offline MKing

  • Contrarian
  • Sous Chef
  • *
  • Posts: 3354
    • View Profile
Re: Who Goes Dry First? Vegas or Phoenix?
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2014, 07:54:54 AM »

MKing would tell you that radiation is "vitamin R." 

You must be talking about someone else, because I wouldn't say that.  :icon_scratch: :icon_scratch:

Sometimes one creates a dynamic impression by saying something, and sometimes one creates as significant an impression by remaining silent.
-Dalai Lama

Offline Randy C

  • Foxsteader
  • Bussing Staff
  • *
  • Posts: 244
    • View Profile
Re: Who Goes Dry First? Vegas or Phoenix?
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2014, 09:43:06 AM »
Agelbert,
My background was not in hard science but rather liberal arts, but my job assignment pushed me to learn as much as I could on these topics.  In my former life I was a missile production analyst and was also trained as a START Treaty inspector.  That training included the Nuclear Weapons course (undergraduate level, no math) at Sandia National Laboratory.  Most of the course dealt with nuclear weapons effects, most of it medical in nature.  It was not pretty to say the least.

I also have a book called "At work in the fields of the Bomb" from the early 1980s.  It also looked at the medical side of ionizing radiation and yes, it kills people.  One of the scientists who worked at Los Alamos right after the war was Carl Z. Morgan.  He was doing animal testing with low level exposure and knew early on that that was the worst kind of exposure.

I also did my masters degree in Defense and Strategic Studies and that dealt with the policy and war fighting aspect of nuclear weapons.  My masters thesis was on the Trident D-5 program and strategic deterrence.  My graduate adviser was William R. Van Cleave.  VC never met a nuclear weapon he didn't like.  As you probably know, there have been a number of close calls over the years that nearly lead to a nuclear exchange.  The 1983 Able Archer command post exercise was one such event.  There is a documentary on youtube that is well worth watching.

As to the nuclear industry and how it is poisoning our world, all your points are true.  I recently saw a video on youtube where the Mark 1 reactor design was tested to destruction at Idaho National Laboratory.  They knew it would blow if the cooling system ever failed yet went ahead with the design.  I think there are some 20 Mark 1 reactors in the US and they will do the same thing Fukushima did when their cooling systems fail.

Yes, shut them all down now, make the industry pay for what it has done.

I will miss the eastern forests of the US but there comes a point when a person has to act in his/her own interests.  Your friend was smart to leave the lower 48.

Surly1,
I would never recommend that anyone lives anywhere near Hanford, or any other of the players in the US nuclear weapons industry, Sandia, Los Alamos, Oak Ridge (K-25, Y-12), Pentax, WIPP in NM or any of the military bases with nuclear weapons on site.  But I still think the power plants are the greatest threat.  Couple that with the state of the electrical grid, that some believe will be failing as soon as 2020, and that is a recipe for disaster.

Offline Surly1

  • Master Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 18654
    • View Profile
    • Doomstead Diner
Re: Who Goes Dry First? Vegas or Phoenix?
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2014, 10:25:39 AM »

As to the nuclear industry and how it is poisoning our world, all your points are true.  I recently saw a video on youtube where the Mark 1 reactor design was tested to destruction at Idaho National Laboratory.  They knew it would blow if the cooling system ever failed yet went ahead with the design.  I think there are some 20 Mark 1 reactors in the US and they will do the same thing Fukushima did when their cooling systems fail.

Yes, shut them all down now, make the industry pay for what it has done.

I will miss the eastern forests of the US but there comes a point when a person has to act in his/her own interests.  Your friend was smart to leave the lower 48.

Surly1,
I would never recommend that anyone lives anywhere near Hanford, or any other of the players in the US nuclear weapons industry, Sandia, Los Alamos, Oak Ridge (K-25, Y-12), Pentax, WIPP in NM or any of the military bases with nuclear weapons on site.  But I still think the power plants are the greatest threat.  Couple that with the state of the electrical grid, that some believe will be failing as soon as 2020, and that is a recipe for disaster.

Where would you be headed?

Thanks for your informed observations in re nukes. Some months (years) ago there was a thread in here talking about this very thing, the threats posed by power plants and the fragility and vulnerability of the grid. The fact that I live within 25 miles of a nuke plant worries me more than the fact that I am a short bus ride from the greatest concentration of military might and hardware on the east coast.
"...reprehensible lying communist..."

Offline Randy C

  • Foxsteader
  • Bussing Staff
  • *
  • Posts: 244
    • View Profile
Re: Who Goes Dry First? Vegas or Phoenix?
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2014, 01:17:21 PM »

As to the nuclear industry and how it is poisoning our world, all your points are true.  I recently saw a video on youtube where the Mark 1 reactor design was tested to destruction at Idaho National Laboratory.  They knew it would blow if the cooling system ever failed yet went ahead with the design.  I think there are some 20 Mark 1 reactors in the US and they will do the same thing Fukushima did when their cooling systems fail.

Yes, shut them all down now, make the industry pay for what it has done.

I will miss the eastern forests of the US but there comes a point when a person has to act in his/her own interests.  Your friend was smart to leave the lower 48.

Surly1,
I would never recommend that anyone lives anywhere near Hanford, or any other of the players in the US nuclear weapons industry, Sandia, Los Alamos, Oak Ridge (K-25, Y-12), Pentax, WIPP in NM or any of the military bases with nuclear weapons on site.  But I still think the power plants are the greatest threat.  Couple that with the state of the electrical grid, that some believe will be failing as soon as 2020, and that is a recipe for disaster.

Where would you be headed?

Thanks for your informed observations in re nukes. Some months (years) ago there was a thread in here talking about this very thing, the threats posed by power plants and the fragility and vulnerability of the grid. The fact that I live within 25 miles of a nuke plant worries me more than the fact that I am a short bus ride from the greatest concentration of military might and hardware on the east coast.

North and west which could be a number of places, the Superior Nation Forest is one such place, lots of lakes, timber, fish and large game.  Wild rice also grows in the region as well as other easy to harvest wild foods.  Western Montana/central Idaho as well as south central Alaska.  Maybe head off to RE country!

My reasoning is as follows: 1) low population density, 2) water for transportation, irrigation, fishing, 3) timber, 4) wild life and I don't mean parties!, 5) as up wind as I can get in the US from the nuclear disaster that is going to happen at some point. 

Surly1, I am somewhat familiar with the Virginia Beach area, had relatives living in Williamsburg who worked at Langley Air Farce Base and I did a couple of TDYs there myself, to Newport News Shipbuilding, Langley AFB, Norfolk and Little Creek.  I would not live there myself.  Working in D.C. was bad enough.  Really, kind of hard to get out of Dodge once the fun starts, and you're right, one nice big target for anyone who really wants to wack the US Navy.

Offline agelbert

  • Global Moderator
  • Master Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 11820
    • View Profile
    • Renewable Rervolution
Re: Who Goes Dry First? Vegas or Phoenix?
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2014, 09:49:53 PM »
Randy,
I see you have a wealth of experience and hard won knowledge of the threat to the biosphere that those God Damned Nukes (especially the power plants as you said) pose now.

Thanks for letting people know the score.  :emthup:

Quote
The 1983 Able Archer command post exercise was one such event.  There is a documentary on youtube that is well worth watching.

Thank you. I'm going to find it!   :icon_sunny:

Just for the hell of it, I might start a petition sometime soon on FORCING the nuclear power plants to NOT kill the fish and gift us with loose radionuclides and high water temperatures by requiring them to have the EXACT same exit water temperature as inlet water temperature along with the filtration to keep the fish out that I believe they have already. It's the heat that kills the fish. That's another one of those "externalized" costs that the MKings IGNORE.

The IDEAL set up would be to mandate a closed loop water cycle so THEY have to deal with loose radionuclides in their power plant rather than "gifting" them to provide new employment opportunities and increased "profits" the Nuclear medicine cancer treatment doctors.  :evil4:

But the MOMENT we force them to pay the real costs, they'll shut them down, like YESTERDAY, declare bankruptcy and leave we-the-people with the cleanup. Free Market Capitalism has got to be the most Orwellian Expression ever invented to sucker the idiots that believe it.  :P
Leges         Sine    Moribus      Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 42014
    • View Profile
Re: Who Goes Dry First? Vegas or Phoenix?
« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2014, 10:24:55 PM »

North and west which could be a number of places, the Superior Nation Forest is one such place, lots of lakes, timber, fish and large game.  Wild rice also grows in the region as well as other easy to harvest wild foods.  Western Montana/central Idaho as well as south central Alaska.  Maybe head off to RE country!

My friend in Glacier View has 2 7 acre plots currently for sale.  Around $10K/acre.

He's looking at subdividing a 160 Acre tract also, but this is a ways off according to his son.

Area sucks for any conventional type farming, virtually no good soil, very rocky overall.  It would have to be all raised bed and/or hydroponics/aquaculture.

Palmer remains the best spot for more conventional farming/dairy.

Here's a listing of Palmer lots for sale.

http://www.landandfarm.com/search/AK/Palmer-land-for-sale/

RE
Save As Many As You Can

Offline Randy C

  • Foxsteader
  • Bussing Staff
  • *
  • Posts: 244
    • View Profile
Re: Who Goes Dry First? Vegas or Phoenix?
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2014, 04:49:18 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ciy5R-tLiE

Link to Able Archer 1983 complete with lots of misunderstandings, making the wrong assumptions and being generally stupid.  Also included are a few level headed people who pulled us back from the brink.

As to farming, I think I am done with row cropping, grazing and raised beds is what we are doing now.  I understand that soil in AK is not that good, will need lots of composting...

I have also thought about doing a Dick Proenneke but I will take my wife with me....

Offline agelbert

  • Global Moderator
  • Master Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 11820
    • View Profile
    • Renewable Rervolution
Re: Who Goes Dry First? Vegas or Phoenix?
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2014, 10:54:26 AM »
Randy,
I watched it. Wow!  :o
Leges         Sine    Moribus      Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

Offline Randy C

  • Foxsteader
  • Bussing Staff
  • *
  • Posts: 244
    • View Profile
Re: Who Goes Dry First? Vegas or Phoenix?
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2014, 07:54:44 PM »
Randy,
I watched it. Wow!  :o

Wow is right....

The best part is telling the intelligence officers to go off and find the evidence that an attack is eminent.  Reminds me of working for GW Bush on the Iraq WMD.  That didn't go real well for us when we didn't play along.  I think the KGB guy then defected.  Can you blame him? 

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
5 Replies
3306 Views
Last post August 14, 2014, 02:27:48 AM
by RE
1 Replies
1160 Views
Last post April 10, 2015, 04:10:23 AM
by RE
58 Replies
32966 Views
Last post May 27, 2020, 01:02:00 AM
by RE