AuthorTopic: A Rebuttal of Gail Tverberg's 10 Reasons Renewable Energy is a Problem  (Read 18826 times)

Offline Surly1

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Re: A Rebuttal of Gail Tverberg's 10 Reasons Renewable Energy is a Problem
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2014, 03:38:29 AM »
Even If I got the jane ignorant slut reference, which I didnt, I would not use it. Whitney Houston vs. drunk Serge Gainsbourg - w. captions (The video's owner prevents external embedding)

It comes from "Saturday Night Live" where Dan Aykroyd and Jane Curtain did a Point-Counterpoint Parody Newz Debate Show.  The Graphic is Dan and Jane engaged in such a debate.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/OfAC77jWgzs?feature=player_detailpage" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/OfAC77jWgzs?feature=player_detailpage</a>

This IS the Diner, UB.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE

What few will remember is that this SNL segment was in itself a parody of a latter day Punch and Judy show, the Point/Counterpoint segment on 60 Minutes featuring a debate between the liberal Shana Alexander and conservative James Kilpatrick.

Quote
Quote:
Shana Alexander, a journalist and television personality best known as the liberal sparring partner of the conservative commentator James J. Kilpatrick on the television newsmagazine "60 Minutes" in the 1970's, died on Thursday in Hermosa Beach, Calif. She was 79 and had lived in Manhattan and Wainscott, N.Y., for many years. A former columnist for Newsweek and Life magazines, Ms. Alexander joined "60 Minutes" in 1975 as the liberal voice of its debate segment, "Point/Counterpoint." Once a week for nearly five years, she and Mr. Kilpatrick, a columnist for The Washington Star, locked horns over some of the most divisive issues of the day, including drugs, women's liberation and the Vietnam War. "60 Minutes" dropped the segment in 1979.
//

Ms. Alexander joined "60 Minutes" on Jan. 5, 1975, replacing the journalist Nicholas von Hoffman. Though she and Mr. Kilpatrick were friends off camera, their on-camera arguments were so famously heated, and so exquisitely literate, that they were regularly parodied by "Saturday Night Live" in its mock newscast, "Weekend Update." Playing a character modeled on Ms. Alexander, Jane Curtin would begin the segment with a stream of impassioned statements. Dan Aykroyd, as Mr. Kilpatrick's alter ego, would invariably retort, "Jane, you ignorant slut."

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=323308


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/cESACuuh6kM" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/cESACuuh6kM</a>
The Don Hewitt decided to pull the segment with famous churl Andy Rooney, whose grating self-worship became a staple for decades that felt like centuries.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline Surly1

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Re: A Rebuttal of Gail Tverberg's 10 Reasons Renewable Energy is a Problem
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2014, 04:08:42 AM »
Even If I got the jane ignorant slut reference, which I didnt, I would not use it. Whitney Houston vs. drunk Serge Gainsbourg - w. captions (The video's owner prevents external embedding)

That was a remarkable video. Ah, those French. Whitney couldn't believe what she was hearing.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline g

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Re: A Rebuttal of Gail Tverberg's 10 Reasons Renewable Energy is a Problem
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2014, 05:20:16 AM »
Quote
I'm not optimistic about the journey, but part of the dust settling could be common, large scale and manually intensive --rehumanised, as JMG's post tonight puts it --may be part of that process. Not just wind farms, retrofitting insulation and thermal solar would make excellent social projects, or allow tax money to flow to the politically connected via a route that leaves something useful behind - like hot water.   

Hi Haniel, Certainly a reasonable view, not that unlikely.

Probably where I am a senior citizen; getting past the first stage, before the dust settles, to the latter is the problem. A much younger, intelligent man with foresight and good plans such as yourself, will hopefully make it through the upheaval.

Being of Mr Kunstler's generation, and understanding where he is coming from on account of it, my view is full of trepidation. His recent article Warrior Nation, is a case in point that fills me with such dread.  :-\

Offline RE

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Re: A Rebuttal of Gail Tverberg's 10 Reasons Renewable Energy is a Problem
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2014, 12:14:03 AM »
GO,

The REASON Gail, like Nicole and Ilargi, will not debate me or attempt to defend their lies and bullshit is because I AM NOT "IMPORTANT" (i.e. I do not have energy expert credentials and a pack of true believers hanging on my every word).

That and you speak with forked tongue. That Camry in the driveway of your castle runs of…what miracle renewable energy?  :icon_scratch: :icon_scratch:

I Paroled Socrates.  :icon_sunny:

Over-Under on how long he stays ot of the Pokey this time?

RE
Save As Many As You Can

Offline Surly1

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Re: A Rebuttal of Gail Tverberg's 10 Reasons Renewable Energy is a Problem
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2014, 02:19:02 AM »
GO,

The REASON Gail, like Nicole and Ilargi, will not debate me or attempt to defend their lies and bullshit is because I AM NOT "IMPORTANT" (i.e. I do not have energy expert credentials and a pack of true believers hanging on my every word).

That and you speak with forked tongue. That Camry in the driveway of your castle runs of…what miracle renewable energy?  :icon_scratch: :icon_scratch:

I Paroled Socrates.  :icon_sunny:

Over-Under on how long he stays ot of the Pokey this time?

RE

Back in the slam by kickoff.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline Surly1

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Re: A Rebuttal of Gail Tverberg's 10 Reasons Renewable Energy is a Problem
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2014, 02:29:37 AM »
Back in the slam by kickoff.

Unlikely.

Indeed.

Congrats on that.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline Tony

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Re: A Rebuttal of Gail Tverberg's 10 Reasons Renewable Energy is a Problem
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2014, 12:42:14 AM »
Where has the stimate of renewable EROEI "been conclusively shown to be MUCH higher than fossil fuels"?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2014, 12:10:16 AM by Tony »

Offline agelbert

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Re: A Rebuttal of Gail Tverberg's 10 Reasons Renewable Energy is a Problem
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2014, 12:08:56 PM »
Quote
Where has Charles Hall's estimate of renewable EROEI "been conclusively shown to be MUCH higher than fossil fuels"?

Google EROI wind turbines, PV, gasoline. Columbia University Scientists came up with numbers for renewable energy FAR above what Charles Hall came up with.

Also ethanol EROI corrected for sugar cane instead of CORN (like Charles Hall used to keep gasoline EROI looking better than ethanol). One more thing about ethanol that was LEFT OUT by Charles Hall: The cellulose waste is NOW ALSO being converted to biomass energy in the ethanol production process, thereby raising the EROI further. Ethanol, even without the cellulose biomass increase in EROI, already has a higher EROI than gasoline without even considering the pollution from fossil fuels.

The EROI of ethanol would go up even more if duckweed or some sort of large algae was scaled up for ethanol production due to the cheapness of fertilization and no fossil fuels needed for land preparation (plowing and planting).

I've got reams of data on my forum and web site but, since you probably don't believe I am objective, I suggest you do your own research. It's out there and it's hard boiled scientific data from Universities that you want, not bullshit from pro-fossil fuel propaganda mills.

Forty Seven thousand wind turbines now in operation in the USA alone are economic proof of the fantastic EROI of wind turbines.
02/12/2014 12:10 PM     Use This Map to Find All 47,000 Wind Turbines in the US

http://www.sustainablebusiness.com/index.cfm/go/news.display/id/25511

But truth doesn't mean SHIT in this country because of the power of fossil fuelers.

The fossil fuelers have won. Expect renewable energy to remain below 20% by hook or by crook. We ARE FUCKED, PERIOD. 
 
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Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

Offline Tony

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Re: A Rebuttal of Gail Tverberg's 10 Reasons Renewable Energy is a Problem
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2014, 06:51:17 PM »
Sorry for the badly worded question, which was the opposite of what I meant.

Sounds like EROEI cherry picking to me and argument through incredulity. So some ethanol has higher EROI,  but measured from the harvest point or the seed sowing point? What is the overall EROI of all ethanol? So a lot of wind turbines are installed; how does that prove that EROI is high?

Offline agelbert

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Re: A Rebuttal of Gail Tverberg's 10 Reasons Renewable Energy is a Problem
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2014, 11:31:41 PM »
Hey Tony, Are you busy?

If not, read everything this permaculturer has to say about gasoline and ethanol.
After you do that, you will have convinced me that you are serious about studying the issue.

http://www.permaculture.com/

Quote
David Blume is an American permaculture teacher and entrepreneur. He has been an especially prolific public speaker, and is a vocal advocate for production of ethanol fuel, especially at local, small and medium scales.

Major work

Blume is the author of Alcohol Can Be A Gas!, a review of the history of alcohol used as a fuel, together with an extensive investigation of how to produce alcohol fuel from different crops, using a variety of tools and techniques, and with an explanation of relevant laws and industry practices. The focus of the book is on how to set up and run crops and facilities for local ethanol use, as opposed to large-scale industrial or commercial use.

The book was originally written in 1983 for release with Alcohol as Fuel, a 10-episode how-to series on PBS produced by KQED in San Francisco. Copies of the original book and TV series, which was only aired on KQED, have since been nearly impossible to obtain. The book was rewritten and expanded to 640 pages over several years and re-released with the same title on November 1, 2007.

Blume's primary insight follows from that of Buckminster Fuller, who wrote the foreword to the book in 1983: that alcohol (or ethanol) is a renewable variety of solar energy in liquid form, the cultivation of which can enhance soils, be used as a minimally- or non-polluting fuel, and enable farmers and individuals at large to make fuel locally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Blume

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Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

Offline Tony

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Re: A Rebuttal of Gail Tverberg's 10 Reasons Renewable Energy is a Problem
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2014, 12:13:36 AM »
Hey Tony, Are you busy?

If not, read everything this permaculturer has to say about gasoline and ethanol.
After you do that, you will have convinced me that you are serious about studying the issue.

I don't think one has to read "everything" David Blume writes about ethanol in order to be serious about investigating the issue. That is bunkum, for a start.

I did read through his myth-busting article:

1) He actually thinks oil has a negative net energy return, unlike just about every other study on the subject. He even thinks it's common sense (which alleviates him of the necessity to justify his claim), though does seem to say that's because some of the oil is used in its production. So, in a total ethanol world (as Blume seems to want), ethanol would also have a negative return. It's not common sense, anyway, since it depends how much oil (energy) is produced when using a certain quantity of oil (energy). He provides no references for any of his claims here.

2) He wants to convert even more habitat into land to produce crops for ethanol production. That's just not sustainable. Also, I read once, (one of the prominent peak oil scientists, though I don't recall which), who said that all the plants in the US (including "crops") do not convert as much solar energy as the US consumes (I think it was something like half). As crops for ethanol get their energy from the sun, that tells me that ethanol can't provide even half US energy requirements, even if it was all harvested for that (which would be a death blow, anyway).

3) He doesn't really justify this claim either, that producing ethanol from crops improves the soil. I can think of better ways.

4) He compares his vision against an unsustainable current system. Which is fair enough, but it doesn't really address the food vs fuel argument, generally. More unreferenced claims here.

5) Yeah, so?

6) That may be so but I'd rather the carbon went back into the soil more quickly.

So, as the myth busting article contains a lot of claims and little in the way of justification, I looked for further information on the EROEI of ethanol. Blume does provide some links. One is to a German Language page and I'm not about to learn German to figure out if the claim of an EROEI of 24 makes sense. However, there are other pieces there. Many seem to refer to US agencies talking about a net gain of 37% or 67%. That's fine, except that our current energy mix is in hundreds of a percent with EROEI of about 12-20, according to many articles I've read on the subject.

Another link seems to put the EROEI of ethanol at 2:1 (twice as much energy obtained as put in). So if the process is kick started with some other energy source, a unit of energy goes into producing 2 units of ethanol energy. Then one of those two units is put into producing the next two, leaving one unit for other uses. A complex industrial society can't b run on an EROEI of 2. There is probably not enough extra energy to produce the machines and infrastrucure needed to grow the crop and process it, in the first place.

Blume is trying to sell a book, though. His site's title is the title of the book he's trying to sell.

I don't disparage small scale production of ethanol for individual use but it ain't gonna replace oil, despite a lot of wishful thinking.

Offline agelbert

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Re: A Rebuttal of Gail Tverberg's 10 Reasons Renewable Energy is a Problem
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2014, 04:22:05 PM »
Dear Tony,

Enjoy your hydrocarbon happiness. It beats the hell out of objective analysis of thermodynamics in our Predatory Capitalist oligarchical society.  You will have many supporters to your "take" on energy in general and oil in particular. Your side won. The planet is fucked but you don't want to think those negative thoughts about your beloved black gold.

You believe you are a prudent, objective, dispassionate fellow merely pointing out the OBVIOUS best choice of energy product for humanity. And then you have the balls to believe people that question your fantasies are "wishful thinkers".  ::)

Keep believin' PAL.

End of transmission.
Leges         Sine    Moribus      Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

Offline Tony

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Re: A Rebuttal of Gail Tverberg's 10 Reasons Renewable Energy is a Problem
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2014, 12:24:05 AM »
Enjoy your hydrocarbon happiness. It beats the hell out of objective analysis of thermodynamics in our Predatory Capitalist oligarchical society.  You will have many supporters to your "take" on energy in general and oil in particular. Your side won. The planet is fucked but you don't want to think those negative thoughts about your beloved black gold.

You believe you are a prudent, objective, dispassionate fellow merely pointing out the OBVIOUS best choice of energy product for humanity. And then you have the balls to believe people that question your fantasies are "wishful thinkers".  ::)

If you haven't got an answer, just say so. There is no shame. Inventing notions about my being a lover of oil isn't an answer and is completely wrong. I agree that fossil fuels have fucked up the world, including the people, and I have no illusions about either oil or other fantasy fuels "saving" the planet. If you disagree with all analyses about the EROEI of renewables, apart from the ones that match your wishes, that's entirely up to you, but you'll have to come up with something more substantial to convince others.

 

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