AuthorTopic: Do No Evil Google...  (Read 12869 times)

Offline RE

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Re: Do No Evil Google...
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2014, 07:04:40 PM »

Right. Because while RE's description was mostly for fun, MKing's was deadly serious.

WHD

"deadly serious" tends to put an ominous tone to it...I would venture more something along the line of "factual fatuous observation".

Fixed that for you.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE
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Offline luciddreams

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Re: Do No Evil Google...
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2014, 07:09:54 PM »
Surly, that was funny...it made me chuckle on an otherwise synchronistic day.  And back to the subject of dreams coming from a day where I seriously contemplated whether I'd somehow forgotten my real life, and started living my dream one. 

JRM...you're speaking my language :emthup:  I think we come from a similar place.  I think you're onto something with your speculation about those centers aligning.  It's got the whole 3 thing going to, the ternary.  Mind, body, and soul all united and following fate, destiny, and now.  This is following your bliss...which is where I'm always trying to point my vessel.  Where is Truth and how can I help it is my moral compass. 

So I continue doing the same into dreams.  Following the synchronicity to wherever it's leading me.  Trusting the moment, and the innate wisdom all around. 

Today I took my family to a bamboo forest.  I met something like 20 different magnificent plants growing unrestricted.  The owner, John, cut down a dying stand of carolina pine/sweetgums, and planted something like 40 different varieties.  Must of it's on a slope, and so erosion got really narly.  He didn't do anything to help the bamboo, just planted it amongst erosion, and left it be without restriction. 

I liken Bamboo to the dolphin of the plant world.  There is an intelligence there that I've never met before.  I really resonated with it.  It was as if the bamboo was feeling my presence and reacting to it.  Massive rhizomes snaked in and out of the erosion like subterranean snakes.  You could see the Bamboo exploring the surface only to decide to perhaps plunge straight down 30 inches if need be, to find what it's looking for. 

I laid Tribann down on my jacket in a large bamboo stand in the midst of the enchantment.  He looked up in wonderment. 

Put that in your Doomer cataloging pipe and smoke it mking. 

I don't really identify as a doomer any longer.  That is to say, I see the "doom", how it's all fucked, but I see the bigger picture that is the Matrix, and I see how destructive it is to bliss...

so I want to destroy it so that bliss can radiate to all beings.  I want to not only free myself, but free as many others as I can just as the Boddhisattva does. 
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 07:11:53 PM by luciddreams »

Offline WHD

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Re: Do No Evil Google...
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2014, 08:37:32 PM »
Excellent parody! :icon_sunny: :icon_sunny: :icon_sunny: :icon_sunny:

It wasn't a parody.  :icon_mrgreen:

RE




Quote
We could discuss more subsets, ecofascists, gold bugs, those experiencing general uneasy within the system they are part of, human haters, survivalists, but I'd be willing to bet many of them would fit into the two top level categories.

Right. Because while RE's description was mostly for fun, MKing's was deadly serious.

WHD

"deadly serious" tends to put an ominous tone to it...I would venture more something along the line of "factual observation".

You problem isn't your observational skills, MKing, it's your meanspiritedness.  :icon_sunny:

WHD
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 08:40:18 PM by WHD »

Offline WHD

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Re: Do No Evil Google...
« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2014, 09:35:38 PM »
You problem isn't your observational skills, MKing, it's your meanspiritedness.  :icon_sunny:

WHD


 :icon_scratch: :icon_scratch: :icon_scratch: :icon_scratch:

Knowing that 2+2=4, and stating it with the authority of someone who has seen that answer generated from those numbers many, many times, is not and can not be construed as mean spirited.

When objective observations are dismissed out of fear of admitting their existence, the onus does not attach to the person making such observations, but to those cowering from them. I always thought this was sort of self evident, but it is one of those rules of critical thinking that gets turned on its head pretty fast among certain....types.... ;D

Using words like onus doesn't make you any less mean.  :D

Your observations are objective, like a social Darwinian. Critical thinking is what you abandoned on your way to suburbia.

Certain...types...get turned on their head best when they care most deeply about the beauty and the mystery of this life. Critical thinking comes most naturally to those who do.

WHD








Offline RE

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Re: Do No Evil Google...
« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2014, 10:14:56 PM »
Knowing that 2+2=4, and stating it with the authority of someone who has seen that answer generated from those numbers many, many times, is not and can not be construed as mean spirited.

Mean-spiritedness is evidenced in the subtext, not in basic addition.  It's an attitude that suffuses your writing.  Anybody can see it.  Here on the Diner, Everybody Knows.

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Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: Do No Evil Google...
« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2014, 02:23:45 AM »
Knowing that 2+2=4, and stating it with the authority of someone who has seen that answer generated from those numbers many, many times, is not and can not be construed as mean spirited.

When objective observations are dismissed out of fear of admitting their existence, the onus does not attach to the person making such observations, but to those cowering from them. I always thought this was sort of self evident, but it is one of those rules of critical thinking that gets turned on its head pretty fast among certain....types.... ;D
:LolLolLolLol:
Assigning mathematical certainty to sociological/psychological observations is one of the most egregious violations of critical thinking there is....

And everyone's analysis so far has missed an important, if small, clade of doomer, though what to call, well quite frankly, us is a bit difficult... fatalist?  genetic?  destiny?  Because certain things, once begun, at their very outset, automatically have the conditions set up for their eventual destruction.  Babies when they are born have telomeres which determine when cells stop dividing.  When you take money from new investors to pay off old investors, you have a Ponzi scheme which will fall apart as soon as the stream of new investors drops off.  Issuing debt as fiat money must always expand exponentially because in aggregate there is not enough money to pay off the interest on the debt, so fiat always ends in hyperinflation, or deflation as debt is repudiated.

And civilization appears to be no different.  Once people start farming, so that some people can become specialists, and some of those specialists take on the role of ruling over the others, the fate of that civilization is sealed.  Decisions do not get made at the appropriate level where the information is optimal; the psychological needs of the ruling class to dominate eventually becomes the overriding factor, and no matter how intelligent they are, they eventually create problems that are beyond their capacity to fix, and the civilization collapses.  This has been the fate of every civilization before the current one, I see no reason to believe this one to be any different.
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline JRM

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Re: Do No Evil Google...
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2014, 10:36:17 AM »
JRM

Your energy centers sound a lot like the chakra centers of Kundalini yoga, of which there are generally said to be seven. My understanding is that they are not considered a part of the physical body, but rather of the subtle body, which is the body's energy field. I'm guessing you know something about those too, no?

Yes, I'm aware of various notions, maps, models, theories... concerning chakras. And I've had some actual experience of these -- actual sensations, rather potent actually.  Clearly there is a lot of similarity between the Chinese dan tien and the chakra system.  The three dan tien appear to be three of the typical Indian chakras.
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: Do No Evil Google...
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2014, 12:52:31 PM »
Quote from: jdwheeler42
  Once people start farming, so that some people can become specialists, and some of those specialists take on the role of ruling over the others, the fate of that civilization is sealed.  Decisions do not get made at the appropriate level where the information is optimal; the psychological needs of the ruling class to dominate eventually becomes the overriding factor, and no matter how intelligent they are, they eventually create problems that are beyond their capacity to fix, and the civilization collapses.  This has been the fate of every civilization before the current one, I see no reason to believe this one to be any different.
The problem then is with the speed of such things. It does not strike me as common that the collapse spoken of around here lasts as long as the Roman spindown did. Or the Chinese, how long did their civilization last prior to collapse? Has it collapsed since, oh, they began building, what, 1000BC or so? Do we have to wait another millennium before the kind of collapse some folks figure is happening now actually builds up enough for joe average to notice?
Indeed MKing the imperceptibility of the speed is part of the problem.  Events like the sacking of Rome that are easily grasped by the mind are but a small part of the process of decline.  In this way collapse is much like osteoporosis.  The long period of decay goes largely unnoticed until what would have been just a simple event (like a fall) turns into a major problem (like a broken hip) due to the underlying weakness.

To answer your last question, the lessons from history show that the speed of collapse is proportional to the length and speed of the buildup.  In the case of the Rome, the buildup took centuries, but the growth was relatively slow, so the collapse took centuries.  China is an interesting case in that they had somewhat frequent collapses, between dynasties, so the resets weren't so devastating.  In contrast, I remember when there were half as many people on the planet.  Such a rapid rise invites an equally rapid fall -- still quite possibly measured in decades, mind you, but well within a single lifetime.
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline WHD

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Re: Do No Evil Google...
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2014, 03:46:03 PM »
Quote
Catton in his book "Overshoot" basically noted the same human propensities, changing the conditions of the "natural" test as it were, to their advantage in various ways. Mobility, adaptability, fire, technology, I forget his list but he had like 5-6-7 game changers on how humans had changed their carrying capacity through time. Interesting read, but when you study the man you bump into what some might call...non politically correct feelings towards others, and how those affected his view on things, overall. He then used his treatise to argue against population increases, for some folks....but not to worry! It didn't include good ol' fashion folks of the Pac NW, they are salt of the earth! It was those...others...that got maybe got him thinking people should stop breeding.

I've never read Catton, so I don't know if what you say is true. I do know, his latest work states that humanity is inevitably going to go through a population bottleneck, so it is hard to imagine, if he believes that, that he would want to prevent anyone in particular from breeding.

I'll agree, any top down population control, is inherently totalitarian, ugly. Which, your occasional advocacy for dropping nuclear bombs on people, is surely harsher population control, than anything Catton may or may not have advocated for.

WHD

Offline Surly1

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Re: Do No Evil Google...
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2014, 04:03:51 PM »
I realize that in the peak world there is quite the fascination with the ramp up into bell shaped curves and whatnot, but a logistic profile looks the same on the front end...and then DOESN'T have the same decline on the far side. And describes important things...like population growth for example. Human's anyway, the reindeer on St Matthews island were too stupid to build boats to go looking for food elsewhere, whereas mankind is already doing mineral exploration on other planets within the solar system.

Help me understand where the "elsewhere" is that we stupid reindeer are supposed to build boats to explore, fracker?

Catton in his book "Overshoot" basically noted the same human propensities, changing the conditions of the "natural" test as it were, to their advantage in various ways. Mobility, adaptability, fire, technology, I forget his list but he had like 5-6-7 game changers on how humans had changed their carrying capacity through time. Interesting read, but when you study the man you bump into what some might call...non politically correct feelings towards others, and how those affected his view on things, overall. He then used his treatise to argue against population increases, for some folks....but not to worry! It didn't include good ol' fashion folks of the Pac NW, they are salt of the earth! It was those...others...that got maybe got him thinking people should stop breeding.

I must say I am unable to find this particular calumny and crime against profits. I am sure you will adduce your evidence for this extravagant and unnecessary charge.

YOu have already found Mobus, Bardi et al guilty of arguing the carrying capacity of a finite earth against an expanding population, and having determined that such arguments are bad for business, have convinced yourself that your time is well spent trashing them here. You resort to your usual vagueness and ad hom "shit-and-fly-away" accusation.

How was Catton guilty of "non politically correct feelings towards others?" I am unclear as to what exactly you are accusing him of, and am unable to find anything in a cursory search that will support this particular bit of ad hom.

Called.

Raise or fold.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: Do No Evil Google...
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2014, 05:42:55 PM »
To answer your last question, the lessons from history show that the speed of collapse is proportional to the length and speed of the buildup.  In the case of the Rome, the buildup took centuries, but the growth was relatively slow, so the collapse took centuries.  China is an interesting case in that they had somewhat frequent collapses, between dynasties, so the resets weren't so devastating.  In contrast, I remember when there were half as many people on the planet.  Such a rapid rise invites an equally rapid fall -- still quite possibly measured in decades, mind you, but well within a single lifetime.
You are one moment speaking about countries (effectively local collapse) and then globally. Those local collapses...they didn't seem to bother the overall human growth issue going back quite a bit farther than one lifetime.
You are quite right, this is a flaw in analogizing from history, in previous times we weren't so globally connected, so going from the local case to the global is imperfect.  However, it lends more credence to the argument that this time we really are doomed, because there likely will be no "reserves" of civilization elsewhere on the planet to pick up the slack.
Quote
So maybe the centuries since the start of use of fossil fuels will be accompanied by centuries on the far side rather than a single lifetime. Then again...maybe not? In either case a single lifetime strikes me as too small to flesh out the overall path of the future.

I realize that in the peak world there is quite the fascination with the ramp up into bell shaped curves and whatnot, but a logistic profile looks the same on the front end...and then DOESN'T have the same decline on the far side. And describes important things...like population growth for example. Human's anyway, the reindeer on St Matthews island were too stupid to build boats to go looking for food elsewhere, whereas mankind is already doing mineral exploration on other planets within the solar system.
Absolutely, we still have the chance to act intelligently to avoid die-off, AGelbert has outlined an excellent such plan.  I just see extremely little evidence of any mass movement in that direction.
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

 

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