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Offline g

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Re: Gold & Silver News
« Reply #180 on: October 26, 2012, 03:51:59 PM »
Quote
But isn't inflation a form of stealth tax? Governments and private enterprises have a recurring habit of spending beyond their means and since they abhor the discipline imposed by gold, they will seek ways of undermining or even eliminating the gold standard and once removed it becomes a form of hidden tax imposed by the ones in power to its citizens. This insidious process of recurring high inflation can be seen in this diagram below:
                        :icon_sunny: :icon_sunny:

Now your talking sense Monsta. Bulls Eye. Great Chart as Well.   

Us gold certificate 1922
Us gold certificate 1922

Mad Money
Mad Money

Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: Gold & Silver News
« Reply #181 on: October 26, 2012, 04:35:53 PM »
Quote
But isn't inflation a form of stealth tax? Governments and private enterprises have a recurring habit of spending beyond their means and since they abhor the discipline imposed by gold, they will seek ways of undermining or even eliminating the gold standard and once removed it becomes a form of hidden tax imposed by the ones in power to its citizens. This insidious process of recurring high inflation can be seen in this diagram below:
                        :icon_sunny: :icon_sunny:

Now your talking sense Monsta. Bulls Eye. Great Chart as Well.   






Us gold certificate 1922
Us gold certificate 1922

Mad Money
Mad Money


All true monsta, consider also, govt is more wasteful than private enterprise by far, but always keep themselves regular payrises to keep pace with inflation. Large private enterprise overspends in expanding and upgrading on the TBTF model. Small business not so, only upgrade and expand cautiously mostly.

Im beginning to see just how hard it is for anything to pay for itself, not just the cars that Steve from econ undertow rails against. Almost everything moves along the line of increasing debt, and govt greed contributes hugely to making things unprofitable.
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Offline monsta666

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Re: Economics & Moral Philosophy
« Reply #182 on: October 26, 2012, 05:34:41 PM »
Monsta you are essentially dismissing out of hand that Inequality exists, has always existed and always at the macro level, as well as at the individual level also. If an individual was as idealistic and altruistic as you suggest then they would not even be able to pay their internet bill.

Essentially you are saying greed is bad? Success and keeping fruit of success is bad, and bad for the economy to boot, yet a strong economy is a good thing despite it allowing for wealth creation which is uneven and evil?

IN relation to gold this only makes sense if you hope that fiat money devalues and therefore evens the wealth inequality, therefore GO and his gold is the only one who is still wealthy having held his value, which is bad because: other wealthy people who held other assets including paer are now poor and no target for the envious and desperate, these fiat holders now  being poor are going to be zombies.

Wealthy people are bad for the economy because they dont spend all their money out of necessity like poor people. Is it possible poor prople also spend their money on drugs booze and cigarettes, also it could be possible that if the wealthy spent all their money they would no longer be wealthy?

Are you serious people like GO can adress the 16T$ deficit by increasing the velocity of money themself by spending more and that would make even a drop in the ocean in difference.

Does it not go without saying that he needs to not leave his gold out on his front porch? And what is the precaution to take to avoid confiscation by govt when you need to provide everything including a DNA sample to buy gold.  Go around buying jewellery privately, Fake ID, Just tell them you lost or spent it?

What you are saying only makes sense if you hope that the wealthy have their wealth devalued so they are just as poor as the already poor and are therefore not targeted (never mind that that mistrust and lack of empathy as you put them have never been a deterrent to anyone since money was invented). Believe it or not wealthy people take the option of paying for protection in numerous ways along with remaining wealthy as a preferable option to becoming poor just so the poor wont target them. Go to a ghettto and find them saying they are lucky to turn 21 because the poor also target each other a lot.  These poor also have a mistrust and lack of empathy to each other. The rich also have a lack of trust and empathy to each other. Nobody needs to feel responsible for the basic nature of man just because they dont want to see their lifes work go up in smoke.

My main argument was to say that inequality - if taken to an extreme - is detrimental at a social/moral and economic level. I am not against inequality and some of it is needed as it MUST be acknowledged that some members of society are more productive and useful than others. Such work must be rewarded otherwise there will be little/no incentive to providing a good standard of work or improving standards. Inequality must exist and in any case it will always exist whether we like it or not. However just because it exists it does mean there are no limits to inequality. After a certain point the potential benefits of inequality (incentives to provide good work/improving standards) are outweighed by the detrimental effects such as (rampant greed, corruption, social mistrust, less empathy). My main fear and the reason for my original comment was that I feel that we are already nearing the point where more inequality will cause more problems than it solves. A move towards a gold standard in my opinion would likely create even more inequality and this great divide can result in the final collapse becoming more bloody and bitter than it would otherwise be.

As for tackling the $16 trillion debt ($1 trillion+ deficit) that cannot be solved in a world of declining net energy without major defaults or hyperinflation down the line. Increasing the velocity of money while helpful will not be enough to solve this debt problem. However if one were to try and solve a surmountable debt problem then increasing the velocity of money would be something that would be beneficial. The rich in any case will often become richer in the long run if they gave some of that wealth to the poorer people because they would then spend that money on goods and services which would create more businesses and prosperity and that money would then be used to further investments in production leading to greater outputs. This rampant greed is actually self-defeating. The biggest issue of this recession is lack of demand. Now this lack of demand comes about because of declining net energy but if we were to put on our economic hats on then the solution (if one existed) is to find a means of increasing aggregate demand.

Okay, I am not saying all that money the poor spend will be beneficial or productive for the economy but I would say a bigger percentage of the total money would go to productive means. This makes the assumption that the wealth disparities are quite large. If there is relative equality then the issue becomes more muddy and debatable.

Economics & Moral Philosophy by Brian Davey now UP on the Diner Blog.

This is a Guest Post published unde Creative Commons Licensing.

I added this post earlier in the thread here to try to get the discussion going on what represents REAL VALUE and how Economic Systems derive from that, but sadly nobody really looked at this in detail.

I will publish here also some other of Brian Davey's material, which overall demonstrates why the Gold Argument does not really work.  Value and Monetary systems which derive from perceptions of value are far more complex than simply attributing Everlasting Value to a Metal on Faith.

I present the material here for the readers to grasp on their own, the concepts are not understood or even acknowledged by Gold Bugs, so you cannot have a reasonable discussion with them about such things.  If you have an Open Mind though, you probably will be able to see why the Gold Bug arguments do not address the fundamental questions of Money and Value that Brian Davey explores in detail.  This analysis provides a much deeper understanding of how Economic systems develop and what Money really IS than Gold Bugs will even address.

RE

That is a great article, and I would recommend others to read it as well. While there is nothing actually new in the article for me, it has summarised things nicely and can be easily grasped by anyone non-economists included. In fact I think it is a type of article that is particularly useful to non-economists and I liked how it laid out the outlandish assumptions.

In fairness to some economists, my econ teacher did highlight some of these facts. During my GCSEs (GCSE is the British equivalent to SATS in the US) my economist teacher did highlight the fact these assumptions of perfect information, rational behaviour and maximization do not often occur in real life. Furthermore when it comes to things such as equilibriums he also mentioned the fact that in reality, unlike what is described in economics textbooks is that there can be more than one optimal price for demand or supply of goods. If true, such things as market equilibriums fall apart. He also did mention or hint at fractional reserve banking although I do recall he said and I quote: "that 99% of all money is not real, well maybe it is 98% around Christmas when people are more likely than usual decide to take their money out."

With that said, stuff like history was never taught even at higher levels and that has been a major blind-spot in economists as this ignorance will condemn them to making the same mistakes of the past. In fact, all the stuff about economic history is something that has to be self-taught. The issues of how goods and services are allocated is also a good issue raised. The price of obtaining and pricing of goods is determined by who controls the factors of production and the means of wealth distribution is not solely determined by productivity as commonly suggested but my who has the most influence in commanding various said resources. This final point is an important one, for it is often argued that the inequality that exists today is just because the inequality is a reflection of how productive each citizen is to society. If they are 10 times more productive then they deserve 10 times more pay. In reality productivity does not solely determine worth, the fact that US worker productivity has risen while wages have remained stagnant in real terms is testament to this fact. I found Steve Keen describes this rather well in his book of Debunking Economics.

The most important fact, or blind-spot is the first points made in this article that modern economics has become a study of intermediate means to intermediate ends. When in fact the subject matter would be much more worthwhile and complete if it studied the ultimate means to the ultimate ends. The failure of modern economists to acknowledge the connection between natural resources and production has played a large part in this madness of perpetual economic growth. This ignorance coupled with the maxim that greed is good will lead to the downfall of modern industrial society.

Offline Surly1

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Re: Gold & Silver News/Could this be a problem?
« Reply #183 on: October 29, 2012, 11:44:22 AM »
In the wake of the counterfeiting stories... this couldn't end badly, could it?

http://rt.com/business/news/germany-gold-reserves-check-472/

Germany orders a check on its gold reserves
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Published: 29 October, 2012, 15:15


German federal auditors have requested the Bundesbank checks Germany’s gold reserves, a major part of which has been stored at banks abroad since the Cold War.

­Germany’s gold bars, stored in the United States, Britain and France "have never been physically checked by the Bundesbank itself, or other independent auditors, regarding their authenticity or weight," reveals a report prepared by the Federal Auditors' Office. Instead, the Bundesbank relies on a "written confirmation by the storage sites."

Germany has placed as much as some 3,400 tons of gold worth an estimated $190 billion at current values in the vaults of the US Federal Reserve, the Bank of France and the Bank of England since the late 1940s. The reason was to secure the country’s gold reserves in a case of a possible war with the Soviet bloc. Currently only about 30% of Germany’s gold reserves are kept in Germany, at the facilities of Frankfurt-based Bundesbank.

Since then, the Bundesbank has seen no reason to check its gold reserves. "There is no doubt about the integrity of the foreign storage sites in this regard," it said in a statement.

Concerns about Germany’s gold reserves arose this year after a group of German federal lawmakers wanted to check gold bars stored at the Banque de France in Paris. But they were turned away by local officials who said there were no facilities to visit the vaults, Deutsche Welle reported.

German worries about the situation with its gold reserves reflect the worries of the German politicians that the country has enough gold reserves to resist the spreading eurozone crisis.

The Bundesbank has reportedly decided to ship 150 tons of gold from the New York Federal Reserve to Germany, according to German daily Bild. After returning to Germany the gold will be melted down to test the overall purity of each consignment before being re-cast into standard gold bars.
“The old world is dying, and the New World struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters.”

Offline widgeon

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Re: Gold & Silver News
« Reply #184 on: October 31, 2012, 10:32:25 AM »
Past practice, we'll see a whole bunch of fresh liquidity/debt issued to "aid the Sandy recovery."  Call it whatever you want, it's been a cover story they've used for years.  That hot money will find its way to Au.


Offline g

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Re: Gold & Silver News
« Reply #185 on: October 31, 2012, 07:02:55 PM »
Past practice, we'll see a whole bunch of fresh liquidity/debt issued to "aid the Sandy recovery."  Call it whatever you want, it's been a cover story they've used for years.  That hot money will find its way to Au.

Right on widgeon, my view as well. Bernanke must have his foot all the way down on the gas pedal after this horror.

Just what the economy needed for the Holiday season lift, a damaged infrastructure.

Offline g

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Re: Gold & Silver News: POMO Fed Permanent Open Market Operation Explained
« Reply #186 on: November 09, 2012, 12:54:04 AM »
 :icon_study:

                                    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ibxw95ZC97I&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/Ibxw95ZC97I&fs=1</a>

Offline widgeon

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Re: Gold & Silver News
« Reply #187 on: November 09, 2012, 10:11:39 AM »
If Max Keiser's expectations pan out this is going to be EPIC.


Offline widgeon

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Re: Gold & Silver News
« Reply #188 on: November 09, 2012, 10:17:29 AM »
"The Bernank"

That never ceases to be phunny.


Offline g

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Re: Gold & Silver News: Thracian Gold Treasure Discovered in Bulgaria
« Reply #189 on: November 11, 2012, 03:48:24 AM »
From National Geographic Gold Treasure found 2400 Years Old

Toothsome Treasure

                                               
thracian gold bulgaria horse 61089 600x450
thracian gold bulgaria horse 61089 600x450

A golden horse head—an ornament from one end of a long-gone iron horse bit—is part of a 2,400-year-old treasure recently discovered in an ancient Thracian tomb in Sveshtari, Bulgaria, archaeologists announced Thursday.

The Thracians were ruled by a warrior aristocracy that had access to plentiful gold deposits at the mouth of the Danube River, which contained one of the largest ancient supplies of the metal. They enjoyed a vibrant trade with their neighbors, including the Scythians to the north, and the Greeks to the south—a fact reflected in Thracian art.

"The styles that have been found in Thracian art and Thracian gold represent a mix of Scythian, Greek, and Macedonian cultures, and of course Thracian culture itself," said U.S. archaeologist and National Geographic fellow Fredrik Hiebert, who was not involved in the discovery.

Bulgaria has a long history of gold metallurgy. "There are sites on the Bulgarian coast that are literally thousands of years older than any other culture that used gold in a ritual fashion," Hiebert said.

                                                           
thracian gold bulgaria face 61088 600x450
thracian gold bulgaria face 61088 600x450

                                 
gold cache  preserved torc 34022 600x450
gold cache  preserved torc 34022 600x450

news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/11/pictures/121109-thracian-gold-hoard-treasure-bulgaria-science/#

Offline g

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Re: Gold & Silver News: Chinese Central Bank Official Says Buy More Gold
« Reply #190 on: November 12, 2012, 04:51:30 AM »
 
A little comment on Mr. Zhang from the Peoples Bank . It comes as no surprise that China in the last 12 months from August 2011 through August 2012 decreased their ownership of US treasury securities from $1.278 trillion to$1.153 trillion. This represents a decline of about 10% according to the US Treasury.

Then on November 8, 2012 Zhang Jianhua, an official of the Peoples Bank of China (the Chinese central bank), stated "The Chinese government should not only be cautious of the imported risk caused by rising global inflation, but also further optimize its foreign exchange portfolio and purchase gold assets when the gold price shows a favorable fluctuation."

Our translation of his central banker speak is… China should buy gold on price declines and not buy so many foreign currency bonds.

We strongly agree with Mr. Zhang. Clearly he knows that there is continued global inflation ahead.

Love to you and the family,

Monty Guild
www.GuildInvestment.com

Offline g

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Re: Gold & Silver News GOLD BUG ALERT! Erdoğan Shift From Dollar To Gold
« Reply #191 on: November 13, 2012, 12:09:59 PM »
Expecting this notion to get some some much deserved attention.  :emthup: :emthup:

During his stay in Indonesia, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan brought up an interesting suggestion for the International Monetary Fund.

Stating that although IMF assistance may appear to be a prescription for some nations, in fact quite the opposite, the fund has often caused serious problems for countries in trouble, Erdoğan asks why it is that the fund uses dollars instead of gold.

Expressing that he doesn't feel it is right for the IMF to act according to one nation's currency, Erdoğan states, "The IMF extends aid on a who, where, how and on what conditions bases. For example, if the IMF is under the influence of any single currency then what, are they going rule the world based on the exchange rates of that particular currency?

Why do we not switch then to a monetary unit such as gold, which is at the very least an international constant and indicator which has maintained its honor throughout history. This is something to think about."

IT IS IMPERATIVE THE IMF AND OECD CHANGE

Explaining that Turkey had to pay a heavy price for the agreement they made with the IMF, Erdoğan stated, "We have not made a stand-by agreement for the past three periods. In April, we will have zeroed out our debt completely and we have no intentions of working with the IMF again."

Prime Minister Erdoğan went on to state: "One would hope that the IMF would help countries in trouble, however at present this is not the case. This is what we need to achieve."

Erdoğan also said he believed the United Nations, the International Monetary Fund, the Organization for Security and Co-operation n Europe (OSCE) and the Organization for Co-operation and Development (OECD) need to all undergo a reform.

english.sabah.com.tr/economy/2012/11/10/erdogan-suggests-shift-from-dollar-to-gold     :icon_study: :icon_study:

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan states that instead of ruling the world under the pressure of the dollar the IMF should switch to using gold.
                             
                                 
488715009107
488715009107





Offline widgeon

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Re: Gold & Silver News
« Reply #192 on: November 13, 2012, 02:06:17 PM »
IMF's purpose is to enslave, not to help.


Offline g

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Re: Gold & Silver News
« Reply #193 on: November 13, 2012, 05:15:16 PM »
IMF's purpose is to enslave, not to help.

They sure seem to create the misery suffering solution to financial problems, and favor the lender over the borrower, never seeming to ask, why did you continue lending to someone who could never pay?

Looking for Gold, sound honest money, to appear out of the paper rubble and restore sanity and confidence to a world gone mad with fiat.

The Turkish premier made much sense and spoke truth in my opinion which can be the building of a strong base of support with such a strong foundation.   "Gold Will Win"

Offline Petty Tyrant

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Re: Gold & Silver News
« Reply #194 on: November 13, 2012, 05:41:10 PM »
I wonder if Turkey can really avoid IMF loans in future, they have been included as part of Europe financially and NATO but are realy part of the middle east, they are very important strategically as a large area frontier to both middle east and old soviet bloc central asia/eastern europe. Accepting being part of Europe and part of NATO has meant a big military beyond their means. Maybe it has something to do with  tradition and pride of being the former Ottoman empire, good on him for speaking out anyway.
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