AuthorTopic: The Oceans  (Read 1427 times)

Offline JRM

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The Oceans
« on: June 04, 2014, 11:14:48 AM »
Some folks are saying that the oceans are rapidly dying, and that they will be altogether dead soon.

This thread is for assessing the actual facts on ocean health.

There appears to be a fair amount of shoddy (and worse) reporting, including outright lies.

This article addresses some of the strange misinformation afloat.:

Is the sea floor littered with dead animals due to radiation? No.

http://deepseanews.com/2014/01/is-the-sea-floor-littered-with-dead-animals-due-to-radiation-no/
« Last Edit: June 04, 2014, 11:16:43 AM by JRM »
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline Eddie

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Re: The Oceans
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2014, 03:26:21 PM »
I'm monitoring the oceans in my spare time, James. I wrote this last September, and I'll be posting an update at the same time this year, I expect. I thought you might enjoy this.

http://www.doomsteaddiner.net/forum/index.php/topic,1788.msg31365.html#msg31365
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Offline JRM

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Re: The Oceans
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2014, 04:09:05 PM »
Thanks Eddie.

I read that when it was a newish posting. Good stuff.

What is your impression of the overall, global situation regards the oceans?

(I heard a doom and gloom story this morning in which it was said that some experts are expecting utterly horrible catastrophic collapse in the next few decades. Of course, some such predictions probably ground in the BAU scenario. But other predictions may be based on current conditions, not projections.)
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline Eddie

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Re: The Oceans
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2014, 04:50:01 PM »
Didn't realize you'd been perusing these pages that long. I was being facetious. I'm not really any kind of expert, although I've seen some references to the doom and gloom articles you mentioned.

What I do know is that changes don't seem to be easy to quantify. Coral die-offs, for instance, tend to happen as discreet events  when the sun and wind conditions are just right...not necessarily that much worse than normal. Just takes a few days of slightly higher than normal water temperatures. It's not like the water temps are anything like static. They go up and down all the time. The coral has resilience, but the resilience has limits.

So you get a small die-off here or there, and if nobody is around, it goes unnoticed. Because St. John is a big protected park, basically, such things do tend to be noticed there, and I like to see if I can see any changes over time. I really haven't noticed much of a change myself, but I'd bet someone who has lived there for a lifetime can see a difference.

I HAVE definitely seen environmental degradation of bays in Mexico, but I'm not sure if its from climate change or just poor stewardship. In the last twenty or so years, the Caribbean coast of Mexico has gone from Night of the Iguana territory to Vegas size hotel complexes and water parks that ferry people in by the thousands daily. Sun tan lotion is enough to kill fish if enough people get in the water of the cenotes.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: The Oceans
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2014, 06:15:36 PM »
I particularly like the last line of the paper you referenced, JRM:
Quote
If anything the paper is a cautionary tale of climate change not radiation.

To answer your question:
What is your impression of the overall, global situation regards the oceans?

(I heard a doom and gloom story this morning in which it was said that some experts are expecting utterly horrible catastrophic collapse in the next few decades. Of course, some such predictions probably ground in the BAU scenario. But other predictions may be based on current conditions, not projections.)
I have seen absolutely no such predictions that were based on current conditions.  If by some miracle we managed to get CO2 emissions down to 0 in the next year, without having catastrophic nuclear meltdowns, the oceans should be able to heal themselves without much problem.  The longer that BAU continues, though, the harder that becomes, and already most scenarios which involve such drastic cuts in carbon dioxide would also leave nuclear power plants to go critical unattended, leading to a different global catastrophe.
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Offline luciddreams

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Re: The Oceans
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2014, 06:49:36 PM »
I was under the impression that most of the world's fisheries are on their way to being fubar due to over fishing.  Is that not correct?  Hell, I just read Gaia, written in 1979 I think, and he was talking about how we were over fishing even then. 

Of course he also said that chemicals like DDT weren't as big of a deal as they were being made out to be, and it seemed he was mostly pro chemical, especially where agriculture was concerned.  I found that interesting in a book titled "Gaia." 

Offline JRM

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Re: The Oceans
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2014, 10:44:38 AM »
I have seen absolutely no such predictions that were based on current conditions.

Good to hear.

If by some miracle we managed to get CO2 emissions down to 0 in the next year, without having catastrophic nuclear meltdowns, the oceans should be able to heal themselves without much problem.

Sans the intervention of extraordinary (and very kind) space aliens, it's difficult to imagine such a thing happening.

What I do imagine is possible, if only barely, would be the combination of the sort of carbon sequestering techniques advocated by Albert Bates and a "bottom up" transformation of the culture of so-called "advanced" nations, resulting in a rapid and radical phasing out of the carbon-intensive physical / institutoinal / economic systems now in place.  Could it be radical and rapid enough? Probably only if something akin to a miracle were to occur.  But it would not be the intervention of a Sky God; that's not the kind of miracles I believe in. I believe in much more Earthy, grounded possibilities -- if only barely. People would have to make it happen. And that means they'd have to quit being so cynical and skeptical about what is possible that such cynicism and skepticism would no longer constitute a self-reinforcing feedback loop (A.K.A., "self fulfilling prophesy).

I think it's important to know that the relative degree of inaction occurring on behalf of atmospheric and biospheric integrity is directly -- and profoundly -- related to a socio-cultural regime of extraordinary cynicism and pessimism (etc.) among those people who best understand what exactly we are "up against". This cynicism and pessimism is completely understandable, even somewhat rational. But, at the end of the day, it turns out not to be quite rational at all. The rationality which undergirds this "regime" wrongly imagines the existence of passive observation and analysis. That is, the "observer" wrongly imagines his or her beliefs do not more-or-less directly impact and impinge upon the observed phenomenon. Its as though we're stuck in a analogical Newtonian physics of social systems, when the actual social systems behave more like ... well, any system profoundly shaped by the Observer Effect. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_effect )

A collective awaking up to this "observer effect" and its implications is my own best hope for the sort of naturalistic miracle I spoke of above. That and what I call the advancement of a micro-eutopian direct action social transformational movement which explicitly seeks to build and employ the Snowball Effect -- largely by abandoning Politics As Usual as useless against Business As Usual. (See David Graeber interview in The White Review, in which Graeber defines "direct action" as just going about doing what is necessary without regard to Establishement Approval, or useless protest.)

The longer that BAU continues, though, the harder that becomes, and already most scenarios which involve such drastic cuts in carbon dioxide would also leave nuclear power plants to go critical unattended, leading to a different global catastrophe.

BAU is largely a Supertanker Phenomenon, by which I mean it is a gigantic ship which cannot turn quickly. Our task is to recognized that the Juggernaut Supertanker is headed directly for a hull-gouging rock ... and realize that it is entirely possible to decouple (as individuals and communities of various scales) from the Juggernaut Supertanker.  What this looks like is a Supertanker suddenly (almost) dissolving into tens, hundreds, thousands, then tens of thousands, then millions... of tiny little boats. Some of these boats are no bigger than a child's bath tub toy.  And the little boats can turn on a dime. They are responsive, because intelligent.  BAU is wildly, outragiously unintelligent. It CANNOT respond. It can only keep chugging in the direction it was set on.

Thus MICRO Eutopian theory and practice. Not MACRO. The age of Big is quite over -- if only we will let go of the Super Tanker.

And remember, people learn more through observation and experience than from discourse and theory. If you get what I'm saying, live it.  Do it. Be it.


====

The word "utopia" can mean "nowhere" as much as "good place". I use the spelling "eutopia," instead, because it literally translates to "good place" in Greek. A micro-eutopia is a small good place. Microeutopian theory is the theoretical aspect of the practice of creating good places. Microeutopian practices are the practices of employing such theory on the ground in the real world.

The revolution is underway. Now it has a name. It has been underway for a long time. It needed a name.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2014, 08:20:24 AM by JRM »
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline JRM

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Re: The Oceans
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2014, 10:54:55 AM »
I was under the impression that most of the world's fisheries are on their way to being fubar due to over fishing.  Is that not correct?  Hell, I just read Gaia, written in 1979 I think, and he was talking about how we were over fishing even then. 

I've often read the statistic that only 10% of the large commercial fish remain, as compared with the stats circa roughly the middle of last century.  I'm not sure how current that data is.

Many have said that such a dramatic decline amounts to collapse. Makes sense to me. And that's why I have not eaten sea food for a couple of decades, except on two or three occasions. (That and I live very far from the sea.)
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline luciddreams

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Re: The Oceans
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2014, 11:59:57 AM »
JRM, refreshing stuff you wrote above man.  I resonated with it. 

I'm actually outside right now, practicing "Green Wizardry," at least that's the title I give it, being a student of John Michael Greer and a Druid.  If we're to use labels. 

I do like your titles, and you do a great job putting our situation into an understandable and digestible bite.  I'll comment more later, when I'm away from the sickle. 

Offline Surly1

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Re: The Oceans
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2014, 02:27:38 PM »
I was under the impression that most of the world's fisheries are on their way to being fubar due to over fishing.  Is that not correct?  Hell, I just read Gaia, written in 1979 I think, and he was talking about how we were over fishing even then. 

I've often read the statistic that only 10% of the large commercial fish remain, as compared with the stats circa roughly the middle of last century.  I'm not sure how current that data is.

Many have said that such a dramatic decline amounts to collapse. Makes sense to me. And that's why I have not eaten sea food for a couple of decades, except on two or three occasions. (That and I live very far from the sea.)

apropos to this thread--

Mass Fish Deaths: Millions Have Been Found Dead All Over The World In The Past Month



Thursday, June 5, 2014
Millions of fish are suddenly dying all over the planet.

In fact, there have been dozens of mass fish death events reported in the past month alone.

So why is this happening? Why are fish dying in unprecedented numbers all over the world? When more than six tons of fish died in Marina Del Ray over the weekend, it made headlines all over the United States. But the truth is that what just happened off the southern California coast is just the tip of the iceberg.

In 2014, mass fish die-offs have pretty much become a daily event globally. Individually, each event could perhaps be dismissed as an anomaly, but as you will see below when they are all put together into one list it truly is rather stunning. So is there a reason why so many fish are dying? Is there something that connects these mass fish death events? Has something about our environment changed? The following are just a few examples of the mass fish death reports that have been coming in day after day from all over the globe…

*In April, 500,000 carp were found “floating belly-up in Kentucky's Cumberland River“.
*Over the weekend, thousands upon thousands of fish died just off the southern California coastline… California Fish and Wildlife workers are still scooping dead sea life from the surface of the harbor Monday after thousands of dead anchovies, stingrays and even an octopus died and floated up over the weekend. So far officials have cleaned up 6 tons of dead fish, and they still have a long way to go.
*The death of approximately 35,000 fish up in Minnesota is being blamed on a “lack of oxygen“.
*The recent die off of thousands of fish in the Shark River near Belmar, New Jersey is also being blamed on “oxygen depletion“.
*Officials in Menifee, California are still trying to figure out what caused the death of thousands of fish in Menifee Lake a few weeks ago… Authorities continued testing the water in Menifee Lake Friday after thousands of dead fish have been seen floating since last weekend. Menifee city officials first heard reports Saturday of floating fish at the lake, which is located on private property about a half-mile east of the 215 Freeway.
*In the Gulf of Mexico, dolphins and sea turtles are dying “in record numbers“.
*Maryland officials are still puzzled by the death of 7,000 Atlantic menhaden last month… State environmental scientists are investigating the cause of a fish kill that left about 7,000 dead Atlantic menhaden in waters that include the Inner Harbor and Fells Point. Jay Apperson, spokesman for the Maryland Department of the Environment, said that biologists went by boat on Tuesday to the area of Monday's fish kill. He says the area extended from the mouth of the Patapsco River, up the Baltimore Harbor to Fells Point and Fort McHenry. *Mass fish die-offs in Lake Champlain up in Vermont are being called “the new normal” by government officials.
*Along the coast of northern California, seals and young sea lions are dying “in record numbers“.
*Three months ago, farmers in Singapore lost 160 tons of fish to a mass die-off event.
*Back in September, approximately 40 kilometers of the Fuhe River in China “was covered with dead fish“.

*Also during last September, close to ten tons of dead fish were found floating on a lake near the town of Komotini, Greece. The following are some more examples of mass fish death events from just the past several weeks that come from a list compiled on another website… 17th May 2014 – Masses of fish turn up dead in a marina in Pultneyville, New York, America. Link 16th May 2014 – Mass die off of fish in a river in Aragatsotn, Armenia. Link 15th May 2014 – Hundreds of fish dying off ‘due to pollution’ in the wetlands of Rewalsar, India. Link 14th May 2014 – Thousands of dead fish washing ashore in Cootes Paradise, Hamilton, Canada. Link 13th May 2014 – Tens of thousands of dead fish wash up along coast of Tasmania, Australia. Link 12th May 2014 – Mass death of fish in the river Eden ‘is a mystery’ in Cumbria, England. Link 11th May 2014 – Thousands of dead Puffer Fish, also dead turtles washing up on various beaches in Colombia and Costa Rica. Link and here 11th May 2014 – Hundreds of dead fish found in a pond is ‘a mystery’ in Southborough, England. Link 10th May 2014 – Thousands of fish dead due to pollution in spring in Sikkim,India. Link 9th May 2014 – Die off of Fish ’causes panic’ in the Luda Yana River in Bulgaria. Link 8th May 2014 – Thousands of dead fish appear in a lake ‘shock residents’ in Mangalore, India.

Link 8th May 2014 – 12 TONS of dead fish removed from lakes in Chisago County, Minnesota, America. Link 7th May 2014 – Massive die off of fish in reservoirs in Quanzhou, China. Link 7th May 2014 – Thousands of fish found dead on the shores of Roatan,Honduras.

Link 5th May 2014 – Hundreds of dead fish wash up on a beach ‘a mystery’ in San Antonio Oeste, Argentina.

 Link 5th May 2014 – Mass death of fish found in lakes in Almindingen, Denmark. Link 4th May 2014 – Mass die off of fish in a river in Fujian, China. Link 3rd May 2014 – 1,000+ dead fish wash ashore along a lake in Ontario, Canada.

Link 2nd May 2014 – 40,000 fish die suddenly in a dam in Piaui, Brazil. Link 30th April 2014 – Mass fish kill ‘worst I've seen in 26 years of working here’ in Iowa, America.

 Link 30th April 2014 – Large amount of dead fish found floating along a river in Xiasha District, China.

Link 29th April 2014 – Dozens of sea turtles are washing up dead in South Mississippi,America.

 Link 29th April 2014 – Thousands of dead fish washing up along the shores of Lakes in Wisconsin, America.

Link 28th April 2014 – Turtles and other marine life continue to wash up dead in Bari,Italy.

Link 28th April 2014 – Large fish kill found in the Mogi River in Brazil. Link 25th April 2014 – Large fish kill found in a reservoir in Nanchong, China.

 Link 24th April 2014 – Large amount of fish wash up dead along a river in La Chorrera, Panama.

Link 23rd April 2014 – 2 Million fish found dead in a dam in Tehran, Iran. Link
23rd April 2014 – Mass die off of fish in Island lake in Ontario, Canada. Link 23rd April 2014

– Thousands of dead fish appear in a lake in Mudanjiang, China. Link

22nd April 2014 – 1,000 fish found dead in Oona River, County Tyrone,Northern Ireland.

Link 21st April 2014 – Large amounts of fish washing up dead along the Panchganga River in India. Link 19th April 2014 – MILLIONS of dead fish found floating in Thondamanaru Lagoon, Sri Lanka. Link And remember, this list represents events that have happened in just a little over the past month. So what is causing all of these mass fish death events?

Read More: http://www.whydontyoutrythis.com/2014/06/mass-fish-deaths-millions-have-been-found-dead-all-over-the-world-in-the-past-month.html
“The old world is dying, and the New World struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters.”

 

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