AuthorTopic: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?  (Read 10947 times)

Offline JRM

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2014, 03:50:40 PM »
Conspiracy radio host Alex Jones calls MH17 downing a ‘false flag’ because of course he would
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/07/20/conspiracy-radio-host-alex-jones-calls-mh17-downing-a-false-flag-because-of-course-he-would/
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline JRM

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2014, 03:59:59 PM »
Quote
"These false flag attacks by the government are getting so numerous and so easy to spot, you have to wonder why the globalists keep trying the same thing, over and over, all in an attempt to besmirch Alex Jones and take your guns away. Seriously, it didn’t work the first 100 times, and the MK Ultra Masonic International Bankers should just stop trying."

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/06/10/alex-jones-is-a-false-flag-hear-me-out/

What I wonder about our buddy Alex is whether he's just pretending to be a paranoid schizophrenic (a fine profession) ... or whether he's the real deal. I've asked his psychiatrist for any records she may have on Alex, but the records were not produced. Think I'll try a Freedom of Information Act on that.
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline RE

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2014, 04:09:22 PM »
It's important to realize, these days, that EVERYTHING that happens in the world which could possibly lead to a war (etc.) is immediately plugged into a False Flag Conspiracy Theory Machine which spits out the False Flag meme to a hundred million computers everywhere.

That's so true. And, the thing is, everything can be used to support these theories. If there's too much evidence pointing in one direction, then it's obviously been planted by the conspirators. If there's too little, then obviously the ignorant masses are acting on their emotions and need to "wake up" and look at "the evidence".

The Western propaganda machines are clearly milking this event for all it's worth. Let's remember that hundreds of civilians have already been killed in the Ukrainian civil war, and hundreds of civilians are currently being killed in Palestine. In some ways, assuming the shoot down was an accident, the offenders are not so culpable. However, it involved a bunch of well-off Westerners instead of poor villagers in Ukraine or Palestine, so no one in the West hesitates to call it a "crime against humanity".

BUT, that shameful post-hoc propaganda is not proof of a prior conspiracy. When you're always looking for these intricate conspiratorial patterns within and between major events, you will always find them.

Last we checked in here, you were blaming it on an accident by the Novorossiyans and claiming a Coverup not letting in International analysts.  In fact the opposite is true, its the Ukrainians who won't release the Tower communications and Western Media on an immediate smear campaign of Putin.

Now you have changed tactics and write it off as more Conspiracy Theorizing.

This does not have to be a conspiracy to be a planned event.  Without consulting their NATO backers, the Ukie Neo-Nazis may have unilaterally decided to blow the jet out of the sky in order to get NATO troops on the ground in Ukraine.  After the fact, NATO has the choice of either owning up to the fact they are backing a bunch of murderers or blaming Putin and doing exactly what the Ukies were after.  Which is the more likely scenario?

Once the wheels are in motion, the propaganda spin takes on a life of it's own as the propaganda organs pick up the story being fed to them by NATO.  That's not conspiracy, that's BAU.

You can be quite sure both the KGB & the NSA know precisely who fired the missile, if in fact it was a missile and not a fighter jet that took out MH-17.  It's a political decision on both sides whether to reveal this or not, and there are likely backdoor deals being made here on this as we speak.  Whoever stands to lose here will manufacture phony evidence countering the real evidence if it is revealed.  Both sides will claim the other side has phony evidence.  Again, this is not conspiracy, it is BAU.

This is the Fog of War in action.  Like WMD, perhaps in the long run the truth comes out, but in the short run the "Intelligence" about the event is spun however they want, to justify whatever it is they want to do, whether it is invade Iraq or send NATO ground troops into Novorossiya.

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Offline g

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2014, 04:35:26 PM »
Quote
You can be quite sure both the KGB & the NSA know precisely who fired the missile, if in fact it was a missile and not a fighter jet that took out MH-17.  It's a political decision on both sides whether to reveal this or not, and there are likely backdoor deals being made here on this as we speak.  Whoever stands to lose here will manufacture phony evidence countering the real evidence if it is revealed.  Both sides will claim the other side has phony evidence.  Again, this is not conspiracy, it is BAU.

Precisely.  It was Putin.

                                                             
                                                                     

                                                           

Offline JRM

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2014, 04:41:20 PM »
The great trouble of it all is that we cannot trust any of the sources of info.  We can't believe any of the governments. We cannot believe "intelligence" from any of the countries. We cannot believe the mainstream media. And we cannot believe Alex Jones. (And that's for damn sure!)

We will never know what happened. We'll have a lot of guesses.

I entirely stopped believing in "official sources" around the start of the second American war in Iraq. And I'm not feeling all that much more confident in officialdom during the Obama years than during the Bush ones.

Folks like Alex Jones gain big audiences in the wake of the collapse of actual journalism. Or, rather, in the wake of our collective realization that neither ABC, NBC, CBS... NPR, PBS ... can be fully trusted as news or analysis sources.  So who are what is our source for data points by which to do our own analysis?

As for the CIA, etc., knowing the truth / facts... I wonder. I suspect that these "intelligence" agencies are internally divided -- perhaps both on the surface and down a little lower in their shadowy hidden underbellies. In any case, we're not privy.  Democracy ... is it anything more than a longing, a dream, a hope, a fiction?
My "avatar" graphic is Japanese calligraphy (shodō) forming the word shoshin, meaning "beginner's mind". --  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshin -- It is with shoshin that I am now and always "meeting my breath" for the first time. Try it!

Offline RE

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2014, 04:44:21 PM »
Quote
You can be quite sure both the KGB & the NSA know precisely who fired the missile, if in fact it was a missile and not a fighter jet that took out MH-17.  It's a political decision on both sides whether to reveal this or not, and there are likely backdoor deals being made here on this as we speak.  Whoever stands to lose here will manufacture phony evidence countering the real evidence if it is revealed.  Both sides will claim the other side has phony evidence.  Again, this is not conspiracy, it is BAU.

Precisely.  It was Putin.
                                                           

Highly unlikely based on the evidence thusfar.

My bet is it was Halliburton under contract from the Malaysian Airlines Insurance Department.



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Offline Ashvin

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2014, 04:57:58 PM »
Last we checked in here, you were blaming it on an accident by the Novorossiyans and claiming a Coverup not letting in International analysts.

I wasn't making any firm conclusions, just saying that happens to be the explanation which is most straightforward and also best fits the information we have so far. Given the information released today, I still believe that's the case.

Quote
In fact the opposite is true, its the Ukrainians who won't release the Tower communications and Western Media on an immediate smear campaign of Putin.

All we know about the tower communications is what was live tweeted out by someone claiming to be working there. OTOH, we know for sure that separatists were in control of the crash site immediately and have so far only allowed limited access. Putin has not released ANY intel regarding what happened, intel that he must have.

As I said before, the Western media smear campaign is not surprising at all and really has no bearing on who was directly responsible.

Quote
Now you have changed tactics and write it off as more Conspiracy Theorizing.

This does not have to be a conspiracy to be a planned event.  Without consulting their NATO backers, the Ukie Neo-Nazis may have unilaterally decided to blow the jet out of the sky in order to get NATO troops on the ground in Ukraine.  After the fact, NATO has the choice of either owning up to the fact they are backing a bunch of murderers or blaming Putin and doing exactly what the Ukies were after.  Which is the more likely scenario?

I am definitely writing off the conspiracy theories that are backed up by absolutely no evidence, such as the one claiming the plane took off with a bunch of dead bodies.

It's possible some rogue faction of the Ukrainian military planned to shoot it down, but that's also hard to believe. Without a lot of planning and coordination with the broad Ukrainian government and NATO, the chance of it backfiring on them would be very high.

Quote
Once the wheels are in motion, the propaganda spin takes on a life of it's own as the propaganda organs pick up the story being fed to them by NATO.  That's not conspiracy, that's BAU.

You can be quite sure both the KGB & the NSA know precisely who fired the missile, if in fact it was a missile and not a fighter jet that took out MH-17.  It's a political decision on both sides whether to reveal this or not, and there are likely backdoor deals being made here on this as we speak.  Whoever stands to lose here will manufacture phony evidence countering the real evidence if it is revealed.  Both sides will claim the other side has phony evidence.  Again, this is not conspiracy, it is BAU.

This is the Fog of War in action.  Like WMD, perhaps in the long run the truth comes out, but in the short run the "Intelligence" about the event is spun however they want, to justify whatever it is they want to do, whether it is invade Iraq or send NATO ground troops into Novorossiya.

RE

I agree, and that's what I have been saying.

But you can't just dismiss any information that goes against your conspiratorial suspicions as bad intel. My original criticism was that conspiracy theorists generally do this way too much. They construct a narrative in which their suspicions can never be wrong. For ex, no matter how much intel comes out pointing to the separatists, I am pretty sure the ZH writers will never admit their analysis has been misguided.

Offline RE

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2014, 05:12:42 PM »
The problem is as JRM mentions that in the absence of any trustworthy Journalism (all the organs on both sides are Propaganda Organs), and the absence of any trustworthy information coming from Goobermint sources, all you are really left with is speculation and deduction.  The option is not to theorize at all, but then you are stuck with just listening to the nonsense being fed to you by the propaganda machine.

You never know the real truth in absolute terms, even in retrospect the History is written by the Winners.  In order to better understand History, you have to construct a narrative that best fits the outcomes.  Theorizing along the way is how the narrative gets constructed.

The further back in History you go, the more you rely on unreliable and sparse information.  The more unreliable and sparse, the more you have to theorize and construct narratives that fit what you do know, or think you know.

As to whether the Tyler Durdens would admit to being in error if "evidence" is produced that the Novorossiyans pushed the button, why would they?  Similarly, why would NATO admit to the mistake if Putin reveals evidence that Ukies pushed the button?  The evidence produced could easily be fabricated, and you as consumer of the Newz have no way of verifying it.

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Offline g

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2014, 05:18:02 PM »
Quote
You can be quite sure both the KGB & the NSA know precisely who fired the missile, if in fact it was a missile and not a fighter jet that took out MH-17.  It's a political decision on both sides whether to reveal this or not, and there are likely backdoor deals being made here on this as we speak.  Whoever stands to lose here will manufacture phony evidence countering the real evidence if it is revealed.  Both sides will claim the other side has phony evidence.  Again, this is not conspiracy, it is BAU.

Precisely.  It was Putin.
                                                           

Highly unlikely based on the evidence thusfar.

My bet is it was Halliburton under contract from the Malaysian Airlines Insurance Department.



RE

Certainly a valid opinion..

I think it is all about character however. The actions of the past of the principle actors in the drama, their demeanor and facial expressions.

Forgive me my audacity and reliance on my gut feelings; the gent reeks of evil, mendacity, barbarism, and a total lust for poweer imho.

                                                           
                                                                         

Offline RE

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2014, 05:24:57 PM »
Forgive me my audacity and reliance on my gut feelings; the gent reeks of evil, mendacity, barbarism, and a total lust for poweer imho.

There's plenty of that on both sides to go round.



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Offline Ashvin

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2014, 05:45:00 PM »
The further back in History you go, the more you rely on unreliable and sparse information.  The more unreliable and sparse, the more you have to theorize and construct narratives that fit what you do know, or think you know.

It all depends. Something could happen yesterday and you may never know much about it due to a lack of independent and reliable witnesses, while knowing a good deal about something that happened decades or centuries ago due to an abundance of such witnesses. The latter typically involve events that leave a big signature in history.

I believe MH17 fits the bill in that regard. There are plenty of independent "witnesses" given the nature of the event, the location and our current state of technology. That could cut both ways, since current technology also allows the fabrication and manipulation of "witness" testimony. But then it also allows methods of discovering when testimony has been manipulated. So, net net, I think we have a good basis for supporting our theories about this event with solid evidence, as long as we are cautious and carry a healthy degree of skepticism.

In terms of media propaganda, I have been pleasantly surprised by some of the MSM reporting. Just now I heard two guests on CNN say they are suspicious of the Ukrainian "intercepts" due to their timing and the convenience of their content, and then the anchor agreed with them. On the other side, I heard that another RT journalist quit after this event because she felt the reporting was heavily biased towards blaming Ukraine without any evidence.

Offline Karpatok

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2014, 06:10:05 PM »
Quote
You can be quite sure both the KGB & the NSA know precisely who fired the missile, if in fact it was a missile and not a fighter jet that took out MH-17.  It's a political decision on both sides whether to reveal this or not, and there are likely backdoor deals being made here on this as we speak.  Whoever stands to lose here will manufacture phony evidence countering the real evidence if it is revealed.  Both sides will claim the other side has phony evidence.  Again, this is not conspiracy, it is BAU.

Precisely.  It was Putin.
                                                           

Highly unlikely based on the evidence thusfar.

My bet is it was Halliburton under contract from the Malaysian Airlines Insurance Department.



RE

Certainly a valid opinion..

I think it is all about character however. The actions of the past of the principle actors in the drama, their demeanor and facial expressions.

Forgive me my audacity and reliance on my gut feelings; the gent reeks of evil, mendacity, barbarism, and a total lust for poweer imho.

                                                           
                                                                         
  Personally, I think Vladimir Putin is the sexiest man alive and everybody else is just jealous and very insecure. I also think he is highly moral in his beliefs of what is right. K

Offline JoeP

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?
« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2014, 06:26:24 PM »
I also think he is highly moral in his beliefs of what is right. K

My thoughts as well.
 
just my straight shooting honest opinion

Offline Karpatok

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?
« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2014, 06:30:31 PM »
  Excuse me, I should have said envious. What does he have now, an 80% rating among his own people. He is leading them up and onward, has played the great game with extremely admirable constraint and self control. But he's hot, hot hot, not a cold fish. He isn't doing what he does for money or only for riches. He truly loves Russia and wants to see it come back, plus he wants to see an end to this unipolar Anglo/Zionist all killing empire. I wish him Godspeed in everyway, even if he is only human. We need more like him instead of the cowards and mercenary liars parading their ignorance and complete lack of morality before us. We should be so lucky to have such a leader instead of Bitches Hillary, Rice and Nuland or Headless Kerry and puppet BO.

Offline RE

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2014, 06:30:31 PM »
Given Vlad the Impaler's history with the KGB, one has to expect he is quite ruthless.  However, so is everybody else running this show.  There are no "nice guys" up there at the top, that is what the Will to Power is all about.

Here in the FSoA, the ruthless folks employ Smooth Operators like Ronald Rayguns (the "Great Communicator") or the current POTUS Telepromptus Obama-sama to pitch a palatable line, but NATO is demonstrably more destructive than any other Military on Earth, including the Ruskies and Chinese.

Since the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia has been in a fight for it's life, literally.  Everybody Knows their population is in decline.  After a series of pretty worthless leaders like Boris Yeltsin who basically sold off Russian Assets to Illuminati Corporations, Vlad the Impaler and his Band of Thugs from the KGB decided to take over.

He's NOT a nice guy.  Faced down with the scumbags from the other side though, you FIGHT FIRE WITH FIRE.  The Ruskies are in an existential battle for their own survival.  In such a situation, you don't turn to nice guys, you turn to tough guys.  Nice Guys Finish Last.

Problem here of course is that so many Tough Guys battling it out will destroy what little is left of the planetary resources.  So it goes.  :'(

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