AuthorTopic: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?  (Read 10949 times)

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2014, 06:32:54 PM »
The great trouble of it all is that we cannot trust any of the sources of info.  We can't believe any of the governments. We cannot believe "intelligence" from any of the countries. We cannot believe the mainstream media. And we cannot believe Alex Jones. (And that's for damn sure!)

We will never know what happened. We'll have a lot of guesses.
In war, truth is the first casualty.
    Aeschylus
Making pigs fly is easy... that is, of course, after you have built the catapult....

Offline g

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2014, 03:18:20 AM »
The further back in History you go, the more you rely on unreliable and sparse information.  The more unreliable and sparse, the more you have to theorize and construct narratives that fit what you do know, or think you know.

It all depends. Something could happen yesterday and you may never know much about it due to a lack of independent and reliable witnesses, while knowing a good deal about something that happened decades or centuries ago due to an abundance of such witnesses. The latter typically involve events that leave a big signature in history.

I believe MH17 fits the bill in that regard. There are plenty of independent "witnesses" given the nature of the event, the location and our current state of technology. That could cut both ways, since current technology also allows the fabrication and manipulation of "witness" testimony. But then it also allows methods of discovering when testimony has been manipulated. So, net net, I think we have a good basis for supporting our theories about this event with solid evidence, as long as we are cautious and carry a healthy degree of skepticism.

In terms of media propaganda, I have been pleasantly surprised by some of the MSM reporting. Just now I heard two guests on CNN say they are suspicious of the Ukrainian "intercepts" due to their timing and the convenience of their content, and then the anchor agreed with them. On the other side, I heard that another RT journalist quit after this event because she felt the reporting was heavily biased towards blaming Ukraine without any evidence.

The way I see it the 300 dead are now forgotten and the endless stream of theories, propaganda, right left camps politicizing the event, movie and fiction writers, the entire gamut of liars, story tellers, crazies, and TPTB operatives enter the game and create endless confusion and bull shit.

We will never know, what happened, I am sure of that, it will always be conjecture, informed or uninformed, but mere conjecture.

Hell, I am still wondering who killed Kennedy, and what 9/11 was all about. This will be no different.  :-\

Offline Ashvin

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2014, 04:46:12 AM »
The way I see it the 300 dead are now forgotten and the endless stream of theories, propaganda, right left camps politicizing the event, movie and fiction writers, the entire gamut of liars, story tellers, crazies, and TPTB operatives enter the game and create endless confusion and bull shit.

We will never know, what happened, I am sure of that, it will always be conjecture, informed or uninformed, but mere conjecture.

Hell, I am still wondering who killed Kennedy, and what 9/11 was all about. This will be no different.  :-\

GO, I understand the impulse to feel that way. But don't you think that is the attitude the propagandists would want us to adopt? If they can't convince us to have certainty in THEIR narrative, then the next best thing is that we give up having confidence in ANY narrative.

We don't need certainty here, just a perspective warranted by information and logic. Of course, if we assume that all information reported is irretrievably corrupted, then we will never have any warrant. I call this the over-estimation of propaganda, the belief that those with an agenda can distort any and all information concerning an event.

I believe if we put a little more faith in the discernment of truth, then at least some truth will be revealed. It is by no means easy work sifting through the loads of information and assessing their value for truth, but we shouldn't give up all hope that it can be done. 

Offline g

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2014, 05:11:55 AM »
The way I see it the 300 dead are now forgotten and the endless stream of theories, propaganda, right left camps politicizing the event, movie and fiction writers, the entire gamut of liars, story tellers, crazies, and TPTB operatives enter the game and create endless confusion and bull shit.

We will never know, what happened, I am sure of that, it will always be conjecture, informed or uninformed, but mere conjecture.

Hell, I am still wondering who killed Kennedy, and what 9/11 was all about. This will be no different.  :-\

GO, I understand the impulse to feel that way. But don't you think that is the attitude the propagandists would want us to adopt? If they can't convince us to have certainty in THEIR narrative, then the next best thing is that we give up having confidence in ANY narrative.

We don't need certainty here, just a perspective warranted by information and logic. Of course, if we assume that all information reported is irretrievably corrupted, then we will never have any warrant. I call this the over-estimation of propaganda, the belief that those with an agenda can distort any and all information concerning an event.

I believe if we put a little more faith in the discernment of truth, then at least some truth will be revealed. It is by no means easy work sifting through the loads of information and assessing their value for truth, but we shouldn't give up all hope that it can be done.

Understood and thanks Ashvin; as always you are a light in the darkness.

It just get's so distressing and demoralizing to be unable to get unadulterated information from anywhere anymore. Even the morning weather reports are tainted. If it is zero out, where are the global warming nuts hiding is what you hear. If its approaching 100, where are the dummies who deny global warming. It permeates everything.

Calls to mind the famous detective Joe Friday from long running TV show Dragnet. "Just the Facts Ma'am, Please Just the Facts"

                                                                 :laugh:

Offline RE

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2014, 05:13:14 AM »
Latest from the MSM

RE

Clashes Cause Further Unrest at Site of Downed Malaysia Airlines Plane
Jul 21, 2014, 7:36 AM ET
By DAN GOOD, KIRIT RADIA and TERRY MORAN
Kirit Radia More from Kirit Ľ
Reporter
Terry Moran More from Terry Ľ
Anchor
Dan Good More from Dan Ľ
Digital Editor/Reporter
via Good Morning America
PHOTO: Ukrainian Emergency workers carry a victims body in a plastic bag as other bodies are laid on the ground nearby at the crash site of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 near the village of Hrabove, eastern Ukraine, July 21, 2014.
Ukrainian Emergency workers carry a victim's body in a plastic bag as other bodies are laid on the ground nearby at the crash site of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 near the village of Hrabove, eastern Ukraine, July 21, 2014.
Dmitry Lovetsky/AP Photo
Next Video Anger and Anguish Over Downed Malaysia Flight MH-17

Fighting raged in Ukraineís Donetsk region Monday, bringing further unrest following the downing of a Malaysia Airlines plane Thursday that left 298 people dead.

Ukraine President Petro Poroshenko later ordered a cease-fire within a 25-mile radius of the crash site, as a team of international monitors arrived to survey the wreckage, though the crash zone was under control of rebel forces rather than Poroshenko's government.

More than 270 bodies have been recovered at the crash site, Ukraine authorities said, with the hope of transporting the bodies to Amsterdam. The bodies have been loaded onto a refrigerated train. But the train has not moved -- and their ultimate destination remains in dispute.

Separatists Have 'Full Control' Over MH 17 Crash Site, Says Malaysian Minister

ĎEnormous Array of Factsí That Russia Supported Rebels Accused of Shooting Down Plane, Says John Kerry

Australian Newlyweds Escape MH17 Tragedy

Authorities are hopeful that the train will begin moving today.

ďThe key priority is to protect all evidence and to have a thorough investigation,Ē Ukraine Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk said at a news conference.

A team of international monitors, including three from the Dutch National Forensic Investigations Team and two American investigators, arrived in eastern Ukraine today and began studying the wreckage.

The chaotic recovery effort continued ahead of a vote expected today by the U.N. Security Council on an Australia-proposed resolution demanding international access to the crash site and a cease-fire around the area.

Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott said his country would view a Russian veto of the resolution "very badly," adding that "no reasonable person" could object to its wording.

ďHaving these people in control of the site is like leaving criminals in control of a crime scene,Ē Abbott said of the Russian-backed rebels.

PHOTO: A local resident stands among the wreckage at the site of the crash of a Malaysia Airlines plane carrying 298 people from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur in Grabove, in rebel-held east Ukraine, on July 19, 2014.
Alexander KHUDOTEPLY/AFP/Getty Images
PHOTO: A local resident stands among the wreckage at the site of the crash of a Malaysia Airlines plane carrying 298 people from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur in Grabove, in rebel-held east Ukraine, on July 19, 2014.

Pressure has been growing on Russian President Vladimir Putin, who the U.S. and others say has backed and armed the rebels, to rein in the insurgents in Ukraine and allow a full-scale investigation. The rebels have been blamed around the world for downing the plane, though Putin blamed Ukraine's government.

In a statement released today, Putin blamed Ukraine authorities for reigniting fighting with the pro-Russian rebels who control the crash region.

ďIt is necessary that all the people who are responsible for the situation in the region improved their responsibility to their own people and to the peoples of those countries whose representatives have been victims of this disaster,Ē the statement read.

PHOTO: A pro-Russian fighter guards the crash site of a Malaysia Airlines jet near the village of Hrabove, eastern Ukraine, Saturday, July 19, 2014.
Evgeniy Maloletka/AP Photo
PHOTO: A pro-Russian fighter guards the crash site of a Malaysia Airlines jet near the village of Hrabove, eastern Ukraine, Saturday, July 19, 2014.

By early Monday, local rescue workers had piled 21 black body bags by the side of the road in Hrabove, Ukraine. It was unclear how quickly they would be transported to refrigerated rail cars in the nearby town of Torez, where nearly 200 other passengers remained in boxcars at a train station.

Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte, whose country lost 192 citizens on the plane, told a news conference that repatriating the bodies was his "No. 1 priority."
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Offline knarf

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2014, 09:35:19 AM »
Just found this "reason" for the tragedy. Just another meme.........

Blatant #FalseFlag: #Ukraine Missile Targeted #Putinís Plane Ė Hit Malaysia #MH17 Instead!

What happened?
Itís a terrible tragedy. But as always, the very first thing to ask is: Who stands to gain?

Added: To those readers who keep writing to me that Putin would not fly his plane into the war zone: OF COURSE HIS SECURITY WOULDNíT ALLOW THAT! It doesnít take a genius to grasp that. My point is that SOMEONE there on the ground THOUGHT he would, someone in Ukraine army was GIVEN such information.  For more read below!

THIS WAS A DELIBERATE ATTEMPT TO SHOOT DOWN THE RUSSIAN PRESIDENTIAL PLANE CARRYING VLADIMIR PUTIN ON HIS WAY FROM THE LATIN AMERICAN VISIT. THIS COMES ON THE HEALS OF PUTINíS SUCCESS IN PUSHING THROUGH THE CREATION OF THE BRICS BANK AS A HEALTHY ALTERNATIVE TO THE ROTTEN US-LED IMF/WORLD BANK SYSTEM. PUTIN ALSO SIGNED VARIOUS MEGA-DEALS WITH MULTIPLE LATIN AMERICAN COUNTRIES. DISCUSSED WERE SECURITY AND COMMUNICATIONS DEALS THREATENING US GLOBAL DOMINANCE, INCLUDING THE RUSSIAN GLOBAL NAVIGATION GLONASS SYSTEM, TO RIVAL THE AMERICAN GPS. See my article: New Predictions! Putin Goes to Latin America: US Creates Wars Ė Russia Extends a Hand of Cooperation.

AT THE SAME TIME, RUSSIA SUCCESSFULLY NEGOTIATED THE SOUTH STREAM CONSTRUCTION DEALS WITH VARIOUS EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, OVER A MASSIVE US RESISTANCE AND ARM TWISTING. US IS TRYING TO TIE THE EU TO ITSELF BY PUSHING ON THE EU ITS MORE EXPENSIVE AND LOW QUALITY SHALE GAS, IN LIEU OF RUSSIAN GAS.

IN ASIA/SIBERIA, RUSSIA IS STARTING VARIOUS DEVELOPMENT MEGA-PROJECTS IN COOPERATION WITH CHINA, AND POSSIBLY, JAPAN. See: Russiaís NEW Ambitious Anti-Dollar Move: $150 bln Investment in Baikal-Amur Railroad

ALL OF THE ABOVE PROJECTS ARE BEING FINANCED OUTSIDE OF THE DOLLAR SYSTEM. RUSSIA HAS MADE SERIOUS STRIDES IN UNDERMINING THE DOLLAR HEGEMONY. AS SUCH, PUTIN IS THE ARCH-ENEMY OF THE US and NWO.

MEANWHILE IN EASTERN UKRAINE, NOVOROSSIA HAS BEEN FORMED, AND THE JOINED FORCES OF DONETSK AND LUGANSK REPUBLICS SUCCESSFULLY SURROUNDED 4 THOUSAND KIEV NAZI TROOPS IN 3 DIFFERENT LOCATIONS. KIEV IS LOSING THE WAR AGAINST DONBASS/ NOVOROSSIA ON ALL FRONTS. THIS INCLUDES THE PSYCHOLOGICAL FRONT, AS MORE AND MORE PEOPLE IN UKRAINE QUESTION THE LEGITIMACY AND INHUMANE METHODS OF THE KIEV JUNTA.  MAKE NO MISTAKE Ė UKRAINE IS SUPER-IMPORTANT FROM THE GLOBAL GEOPOLITICAL STANDPOINT! THATíS WHY THE US IS ALL OVER IT; AS IT IS COMING OUT, SO IS ISRAEL.

US IS INCREDIBLY SCARED THAT ITS HEGEMONY IS CRUMBLING. THE BRICS BANK, RUSSIAN DEALS IN LATIN AMERICA, SIBERIA, AND SOUTH STREAM IN EUROPE, MAKE THE US LOOK WORSE AND WORSE. PUTIN HAS BEEN VILIFIED AND THREATENED, RUSSIA WAS SABOTAGED EACH STEP OF THE WAY. UKRAINE MAYHEM WAS ORCHESTRATED BY THE US TO FURTHER WEAKEN AND MALIGN RUSSIA. BUT NONE OF THIS WORKS. PUTIN STILL OUTSMARTS AND OUTPLAYS THEM EVERY TIME. PUTIN CONTINUES TO BE THE MOST POPULAR WORLD LEADER.

WHILE PUTIN WAS IN BRAZIL, SIGNING CONTRACTS AND CELEBRATING THE BRICS BANK CREATION, US IMPOSED ANOTHER ROUND OF SANCTIONS AGAINST RUSSIA. HOWEVER, RUSSIA HAS ANNOUNCED THAT IT ISNíT PHASED BY THE SANCTIONS AND WILL CONSIDER ITS OWN SANCTIONS AGAINST THE US.

THE NEXT AND ONLY THING THAT REMAINS FOR THE US TO DO IS TO KILL PUTIN PHYSICALLY.

THIS WAS AN ATTEMPT TO DO JUST THAT, USING THE KIEV JUNTA ROCKETS. THE IDEA WAS TO BLAME IT ON THE DONETSK REPUBLIC/NOVOROSSIA SELF-DEFENCE. EXCEPT, NOVOROSSIA DOESNíT HAVE THE ROCKETS CAPABLE OF REACHING THE ALTITUDE OF A COMMERCIAL JET.

IT IS CLEAR THAT PUTINíS PLANE WAS TARGETED. AS YOUíLL SEE BELOW, IT MAY HAVE FLOWN IN THE SAME SPACE JUST A LITTLE LATER. THE RUSSIAN SOURCES LATER DENIED THAT PUTINíS PLANE FLEW OVER UKRAINE AIR SPACE, AND ITíS MOST LIKELY TRUE. IT IS VERY POSSIBLE THAT PUTINíS PLANE DELIBERATELY CHANGED ITS ROUTE, OR THERE WAS ANOTHER DIVERSION. I BELIEVE UKRAINE MILITARY MISTOOK THE MALAYSIAN FLIGHT MH17 FOR THE RUSSIAN PRESIDENTIAL PLANE, AND EXECUTED THE ORDER THEY HAD RECEIVED.

RUSSIAN PRESIDENTIAL PLANE AND THE MALAYSIA AIRLINES PLANE ARE VERY SIMILAR-LOOKING FROM A DISTANCE. THE INTEL AND COORDINATES FOR THE RUSSIAN PRESIDENTIAL PLANEíS ROUTE COULD HAVE ONLY COME FROM THE US SATELLITES. UKRAINE HAS NO SUCH INTEL CAPABILITY. THEY DO HAVE ROCKETS TO EXECUTE THE PLAN, BUT AS IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE, THE UKRAINE MILITARY IS VERY POORLY TRAINED, HENCE THE MISTAKE.

THE LAST THING TO ADD IS THIS: I SEE THAT US, EU AND ISRAEL MSM IS ALREADY YELLING THAT IT WAS RUSSIA THAT DOWNED THE PLANE SINCE IT WAS THE RUSSIAN-MADE BUK MISSILE. BUT HERE IS THE PROBLEM: THESE OLDER MISSILES ARE NOT REALLY USED BY THE RUSSIAN ARMY ANY MOREÖ HOWEVER, THEY ARE USED VERY EXTENSIVELY BY THE UKRAINE ARMY, WHICH IS EQUIPPED WITH OLDER, SOVIET-STYLE WEAPONS from 1980s, AND DOES NOT HAVE THE MODERN RUSSIAN WEAPONS! MOREOVER, UKRAINE AT ONE POINT WAS THE MANUFACTURER OF THE BUK MISSILE. More about the BUK missile on Wikipedia.

PRESENTLY, UKRAINE ARMY HAS 27 BUK-M1 SYSTEMS STATIONED ALONG THE NORTH-WESTERN BORDER OF DONETSK AS PART OF THE UKRAINE ARMYíS 156TH MISSILE BRIGADE. Link to the Russian army announcement on the topic.

P.S. Itís worth noting that both Kiev and US are constantly trying to put Russia on the defensive. This is a proven US technology: to keep your opponent busy so he doesnít have the time to challenge you. Sometimes they succeed, sometimes not. Another thing to note is the divide-and-conquer strategy. There were lots of Europeans on the plane, so McCainís and MSM immediate yelling that Russia shot down the Malaysian airliner is supposed to put a rift between EU and Russia and Malaysia and Russia.

Last, but not least: 13 years ago, in 2001, a Ukraine missile shot down another plane over the Black Sea. It was a commercial jet from the Russian Sibir airline, en route to Turkey. Over 80 people died. The investigation revealed that the military was poorly trained and shot down the plane by mistake. However, the investigation was never completed, and Ukraine never admitted its responsibility. At the time, there supposedly was no war in Ukraine.



Malaysian Airlines MH17 plane was travelling almost the same route as Russiaís President Vladimir Putinís jet shortly before the crash that killed 295, Interfax news agency reports citing sources.

ďI can say that Putinís plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100 meters. The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft Ė 15:44 Moscow time,Ē a source told the news agency on condition of anonymity.

ďThe contours of the aircrafts are similar, linear dimensions are also very similar, as for the coloring, at a quite remote distance they are almost identicalĒ, the source added.



At the same time, there have been reports contradicting Intefaxís report that was the first and the only media source to publish the news, saying that Presidential plane was not flying over Ukraine at the same time.

As a source told Gazeta.ru online news portal, Putinís plane does take off from Vnukovo-3 [the terminal that accepts business jets], but the president does not fly over the conflict-gripped neighboring country.

ďPutin has only one jet Ė Board One, he does not fly other planes. This plane always takes off from Vnukovo-3, but the presidential plane have not been flying over Ukraine for a while,Ē the source at Vnukovo-3 terminal said.

President Putin was on his way from Brazil, where he attended the BRICS summit, to Moscow.

Flight MH17 crashed in Ukraine on a flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpar, and was carrying 295 people.

The passenger Boeing-777 was expected to enter Russian airspace at 5:20pm local time, but never did, a Russian aviation industry source was cited by Reuters.

ďThe plane crashed 60km away from the border, the plane had an emergency beacon,Ē ITAR-TASS cited its source.

II

RT: Kiev deployed powerful surface-to-air missile systems to E. Ukraine ahead of the Malaysian plane crash Ė reports



A man stands next to the wreckage of the Malaysian airliner carrying 295 people from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur after it crashed, in rebel-held east Ukraine, near the town of Shaktarsk, on July 17, 2014.(AFP Photo / Dominique Faget)
The Ukrainian military reportedly deployed a battery of Buk surface-to-air missile systems, capable of bringing down high-flying jets, to the Donetsk region the day before the Malaysian passenger plane crashed in the area.

READ RTíS LIVE UPDATES ON MALAYSIAN PLANE CRASH

Itar-Tass and Interfax news agencies are citing a source familiar with the issue, who said that another battery of Buk systems is currently being prepared for shipment to Donetsk region from the Ukrainian city of Kharkov.

The Donetsk region remains the scene of heavy fighting between government troops and the forces of the opposition, which refused to recognize the regime change in Kiev and demand federalization.

A Malaysian Airlines aircraft en route from Amsterdam to Malaysia crashed in Eastern Ukraine Ė not far from the Russian border Ė on Thursday.



BUK.(RIA Novosti / Vadim Braydov)

There were reportedly 280 people and 15 crew members on board the Boeing-777 plane, who reportedly all died in the crash.

There were unconfirmed reports the Malaysian plane was travelling at an altitude of over 10,000 meters when it was allegedly hit by a missile.

Thereís no way that the self-defense forces in Donetsk Region are in possession of such complex weaponry, he stressed. Only S-300 and Buk surface-to-air missile systems are capable of hitting targets at such altitude, the source said.

Buk is a family of self-propelled, medium-range surface-to-air missile systems developed by the former USSR and Russia to engage targets at an engagement altitude of 11,000-25,000 meters depending on the model.

Read more on What is the Real Truth Blog



Screenshot from YouTube user Novorossiya Novorosy

The moment when the Malaysia Airlines MH17 plane hit into the ground in Eastern Ukraine was allegedly caught on film by local residents.

The footage was taken from a distance of several kilometers, but the massive explosion is easily distinguished in the video.

The bright flash is followed by clouds of thick black smoke coming from the presumed Malaysian planeís crash site.

The footage also shows a trace of smoke in the air as the aircraft descended from the altitude of 10,000 meters.

See the video, and more, on Jeanís blog, What is the Real Truth? The video was posted on a YouTube account, which supports the self-defense forces of the Peopleís Republic of Donetsk. The Donetsk Region of the Ukraine where the plane crash happened is the currently the scene of heavy fighting between the countryís military and the opposition forces, which refuse to recognize the regime change in Kiev and demand federalization.
A Malaysian Airlines aircraft en route from Amsterdam to Malaysia crashed in Eastern Ukraine Ė not far from the Russian border Ė on Thursday. There were 280 passengers and 15 crew members on board the Boeing-777 plane. There are allegations the Malaysian plane was traveling at an altitude of over 10,000 meters when it was shot down. Both Kiev and the self-defense forces have denied involvement and are putting the blame for the tragedy on each other.

found at : http://futuristrendcast.wordpress.com/2014/07/17/blatant-falseflag-ukraine-missile-targeted-putins-plane-hit-malaysia-mh17-instead/
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Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2014, 10:12:46 AM »
I just got this interesting tidbit off The Burning Platform, http://www.theburningplatform.com/2014/07/20/washington-propaganda-machine-working-overtime/

Quote
What Happened to the Malaysian Airliner?

Washingtonís propaganda machine is in such high gear that we are in danger of losing
the facts that we do have.

One fact is that the separatists do not have the expensive Buk anti-aircraft missile system or the trained personnel to operate it.

Another fact is that the separatists have no incentive to shoot down an airliner and neither does Russia. Anyone can tell the difference between low-flying attack aircraft and an airliner at 33,000 feet.

The Ukrainians do have Buk anti-aircraft missile systems, and a Buk battery was operational in the region and deployed at a site from which it could have fired a missile at the airliner.

Just as the separatists and the Russian government have no incentive to shoot down an airliner, neither does the Ukrainian government nor, one would think, even the crazed extreme Ukrainian nationalists who have formed militias to take the fight against the separatists that the Ukrainian army is not keen to undertakeĖunless there was a plan to frame Russia.

One Russian general familiar with the weapon system offered his opinion that it was a mistake made by the Ukrainian military untrained in the weaponís use. The general said that although Ukraine has a few of the weapons, Ukrainians have had no training in their use in the 23 years since Ukraine separated from Russia. The general thinks it was an accident due to incompetence.

This explanation makes a certain amount of sense and far more sense than Washingtonís propaganda. The problem with the generalís explanation is that it does not explain why the Buk anti-aircraft missile system was deployed near or in a separatist territory. The separatists have no aircraft. It seems odd for Ukraine to have an expensive missile system in an area in which it is of no military use and where the position could be overrun and captured by separatists.

As Washington, Kiev, and the presstitute media are committed to the propaganda that Putin did it, we are not going to get any reliable information from the US media. We will have to figure it out for ourselves.

One way to begin is to ask: Why was the missile system where it was? Why risk an expensive missile system by deploying it in a conflict environment in which it is of no use? Incompetence is one answer, and another is that the missile system did have an intended use.

What intended use? News reports and circumstantial evidence provide two answers. One is that the ultra-nationalist extremists intended to bring down Putinís presidential airliner and confused the Malaysian airliner with the Russian airliner.

The Interfax news agency citing anonymous sources, apparently air traffic controllers, reported that the Malaysian airliner and Putinís airliner were traveling almost the identical route within a few minutes of one another. Interfax quotes its source: ďI can say that Putinís plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100 meters. The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft at 15:44 Moscow time. The contours of the aircrafts are similar, linear dimensions are also very similar, as for the coloring, at a quite remote distance they are almost identical.Ē

I have not seen an official Russian denial, but according to news reports, the Russian government in response to the Interfax news report said that Putinís presidential plane no longer flies the Ukraine route since the outbreak of hostilities.

Before we take the denial at face value, we need to be aware that the implication that Ukraine attempted to assassinate the president of Russia implies war, which Russia wants to avoid. It also implies Washingtonís complicity as it is highly unlikely that Washingtonís puppet in Kiev would risk such a dangerous act without Washingtonís backing. The Russian government, being intelligent and rational, would obviously deny reports of an attempted assassination of the Russian president by Washington and its Kiev puppet. Otherwise, Russia has to do something about it, and that means war.

The second explanation is that the extremists who operate outside the official Ukrainian military, hatched a plot to down an airliner in order to cast the blame on Russia. If such a plot occurred, it likely originated with the CIA or some operative arm of Washington and was intended to force the EU to cease resisting Washingtonís sanctions against Russia and to break off Europeís valuable economic relationships with Russia. Washington is frustrated that its sanctions are unilateral, unsupported by its NATO puppets or any other countries in the world except possibly the lap-dog British PM.

There is considerable circumstantial evidence in support of this second explanation. There is the youtube video which purports to be a conversation between a Russian general and separatists who are discussing having mistakenly brought down a civilian airliner. According to reports, expert examination of the code in the video reveal that it was made the day before the airliner was hit.

Another problem with the video is that whereas we could say that separatists conceivably could confuse an airliner at 33,000 feet with a military attack plane, the Russian military would not. The only conclusion is that by involving the Russian military, the video doubly discredited itself.

The circumstantial evidence easiest for non-technical people to understand is the on cue news programs organized to put the blame on Russia prior to the knowledge of any facts.

In my previous article http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/17/sanctions-airliners-paul-craig-roberts/ I reported on the BBC news report which I heard and which was obviously primed to place all blame on Russia. The program ended with a BBC correspondent breathlessly reporting that he has just seen the youtube video and that the video is the smoking gun that proved Russia did it. There is no longer any doubt, he said. Somehow the information got on a video and on youtube before it reached the Ukrainian government or Washington.

The evidence that Putin did it is a video made prior to the attack on the airliner. The entire BBC report aired over National Public Radio was orchestrated for the sole purpose of establishing prior to any evidence that Russia was responsible.
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Offline RE

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2014, 11:54:50 AM »
Well, if it was an attempted assassination attempt of Vlad the Impaler, it's a good thing it failed because WWIII would be in full swing this week.

Right now the bottom line is it appears Ukies had the Buk system in the right neighborhood to take the shot, and the Separatists did not.  The Ukies also apparently had a fighter jet in the same neighborhood in civilian airspace.

RE
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Offline RE

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2014, 01:00:04 PM »
More from over on TBP

RE


Whistleblower: U.S. Satellite Images Show Ukrainian Troops Shooting Down MH17

2 comments

Posted on 21st July 2014 by Administrator in Economy |Politics |Social Issues

lies, Malaysia Flight MH17, Propaganda, Ukraine

Via InfoWars
Source tells award winning reporter Washington lying about responsibility for tragedy

by Paul Joseph Watson | July 21, 2014

Award winning former Associated Press reporter Robert Parry has been told by an intelligence source that the United States is in possession of satellite imagery which shows that Ukrainian troops were responsible for the shoot down of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17.

In the absence of any proper investigation, media rhetoric over the last few days has firmly pointed the finger of blame for the downing of the aircraft on Russian-backed Ukrainian rebels, but Parryís source tells a different story.

    What Iíve been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms.

    The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian rebels in similar uniforms but the initial assessment was that the troops were Ukrainian soldiers. There also was the suggestion that the soldiers involved were undisciplined and possibly drunk, since the imagery showed what looked like beer bottles scattered around the site, the source said.

Although the establishment press has attempted to deride any questioning of the official narrative that Ukrainian rebels were responsible for the incident by invoking the tired ďconspiracy theoryĒ pejorative, Parry can hardly be dismissed as a crank given his key role in covering the Iran-Contra scandal for the Associated Press and Newsweek. Indeed, Parryís investigative work on intelligence matters, for which he was awarded the George Polk Award, suggests that the information provided by his source is worthy of serious attention.

U.S. and Ukrainian authorities continue to insist that Moscow-backed separatists were responsible for the tragedy, asserting that a BUK missile system was used to bring down the airliner. However, this was contradicted by Ukraineís Prosecutor General Vitaliy Yarema, who stated, ďThe military told the president after the passenger plane had been shot down that the terrorists did not possess our Buk missile systems.Ē

In a related development, audio experts who conducted a study into the authenticity of a recording released by Ukrainian authorities which implicated Russian-backed rebels as being responsible for the missile attack on MH17 concluded that the tape was fabricated.

ďThe tapeís second fragment consists of three pieces but was presented as a single audio recording. However, a spectral and time analysis has showed that the dialog was cut into pieces and then assembled. Short pauses in the tape are very indicative: the audio file has preserved time marks which show that the dialog was assembled from various episodes, the expert said,Ē reports ITAR-TASS.

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2 Comments

    Iska Waran says:

    My advice to Mr. Parry would be that he not drive anywhere. Especially in a Mercedes in Los Angeles. Also Ė he shouldnít walk anywhere either, especially not after having a glass of wine in a pub in Los Angeles. He probably shouldnít ride a bike or take a bus, either. Nor should he stay home.
    30

    21st July 2014 at 3:05 pm

    T4C says:

    Today on The Saker

    MONDAY, JULY 21, 2014

    The Russian military finally speaks!

    Finally! The Russian military has decided to speak out about some of what it knows about what happened to MH17. It was a typical Russian event: the interpreters were nothing short of *terrible* (I speak as a former military interpreter myself), the visual aids were badly designed (the shape of a SU-24 bomber was used to represent a totally different SU-25 close air support aircraft), and there was no Q&A.

   
–ü—Ä–Ķ—Ā—Ā-–ļ–ĺ–Ĺ—Ą–Ķ—Ä–Ķ–Ĺ—Ü–ł—Ź –Ņ—Ä–Ķ–ī—Ā—ā–į–≤–ł—ā–Ķ–Ľ–Ķ–Ļ –ľ–ł–Ĺ–ĺ–Ī–ĺ—Ä–ĺ–Ĺ—č – –ĺ—Ā—Ā–ł–ł –Ņ–ĺ –ļ—Ä—É—ą–Ķ–Ĺ–ł—é Boeing-777


    Still, a few very interesting things came out of this press conference.

    First, the Ukies have been caught lying about their military aircraft in the area of the disaster. They had claimed that no UAF aircraft were in the area. The Russians have shown the recorded radar tracks which reveal the following: there was what appears to have been a military aircraft (with no transponder) flying below 5000m which suddenly began climbing just before MH17 was hit by some kind of missile. This unidentified aircraft then stayed and observed as MH17 fell to the ground. The Russians added that a SU-25 armed with a R-60 air to air missile could have shot down MH17. Maybe. But what is certain is that the civilian radars did detected this strange Ukie aircraft.

    Now, these radar tracks are from *civilian* radars. The Russians apparently are not willing to share the data from their military radars. This is why this mysterious Ukie aircraft Ďappearsí at 5í000m altitude and then Ďdisappearsí again, but you can be certain that their military radars, especially on their A-50 AWACs did track that aircraft before and after its strange maneuver. Again, I think that the Russians hope that the experts will come to the correct conclusions on the basis of what they have shown today and that they will not have to reveal more. But we can be certain that they have the full picture and that they know exactly what happened.

    Second, the Russians are challenging their American colleagues to show the images they claim show the launch of the BukM1 rocket. They also point out at the interesting coincidence that an US experimental launch detection satellite was exactly over the area at the moment of the tragedy. Clearly, they are tossing the world experts some kind of lead here, but I am not sure what this is.

    Third, the Russians have shown their own space-based imagery which shows that one battery of BukM1 had been moved just prior to the incident (See for yourself here). It will be interesting to see if the Ukies explain what is shown on these picture and, if yes, how?

    As a public information this conference gets a C+ but as a lead for experts I would give it a much higher A-. We know have hard proof that the Ukies lied at least twice. They lied about the footage of the Buk missiles being moved back to Russia (the footage was taken in Ukie-occupied territory) and they most definitely lied when they denied having any military aircraft in the area when in reality they had one in the immediate proximity of MH17. That is a huge lie which the Ukies will have a very hard time dismissing.

    As I said in my first post about MH17, I have no hope whatsoever that the western plutocracy will ever admit that the junta did it. Ditto for the corporate presstitues of the MSM, but I do hope that the world will see this tragedy for what is clearly was: a deliberate false flag on the part of the Nazi junta in Kiev. As David Chandler correctly points out about 9/11, the proof of a cover up is in itself already a proof of a conspiracy.
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Offline monsta666

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2014, 01:10:15 PM »
In wartime, truth is so precious that she should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies. - Winston Churchill

I think this saying applies here. The claims and counter claims not to mention the little examination and even destruction of evidence means this story becomes next to impossible to determine the real culprits. We can speculate and even agree on matters such as motive but without any real concrete information I feel this is just informed speculation at best. I personally think what is more important is what happens next?

On this front there is one thing that has not been mentioned much and this could offer another potential motive for a US sided group to drop a missile. It has been said the US has been pressing for much tougher economic sanctions on Russia and was getting impatient with Europe's reluctance to take greater action. Perhaps this latest attack on a civilian aircraft was a ploy to pressure Europe into taking greater action? This attack makes even more sense if you consider that a huge percentage of the passenger's on board was from Europe and in particular Holland. The sentiment in Europe which was fairly neutral before will be hardened against Russia and the separatist movement and it is quite likely there will be greater pressure placed on the governments in Europe from the public to take greater action.

If Europe does comply with generalised industry wide or even tougher economic sanctions as suggested by the US it is likely to cause significant harm to the Russian economy and at the same time make Europe less dependent on Russian oil and gas which would be a good thing for US interests. However this is likely to come at a cost as the already fragile European economies will be made more weaker if such measures were taken. It should be noted the value of trade between Russia and Europe is ten times greater than the trade between the US and Russia thus any hard sanctions will effect Europe by a disproportionate degree. This dependency (or non-dependency in the US's case) on trade can partly explain the differing stance between Europe and US towards Russia.

Offline jdwheeler42

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2014, 01:54:19 PM »
Well, if it was an attempted assassination attempt of Vlad the Impaler, it's a good thing it failed because WWIII would be in full swing this week.

Right now the bottom line is it appears Ukies had the Buk system in the right neighborhood to take the shot, and the Separatists did not.  The Ukies also apparently had a fighter jet in the same neighborhood in civilian airspace.
Now I'm leaning towards this whole thing being Grand Master Putin's idea.  I think at no time was Putin actually in danger, but I speculate that someone fed the disinformation to the Ukrainians that he would be flying over.  If so, he is patiently waiting for events to unfold to demonstrate that it was the Ukrainians who shot down the plane to turn world opinion against them and the American propaganda machine that insisted it was the separatists that did it.
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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2014, 03:46:17 PM »
Knarf said,
Quote
This is a proven US technology: to keep your opponent busy so he doesnít have the time to challenge you. Sometimes they succeed, sometimes not. Another thing to note is the divide-and-conquer strategy. There were lots of Europeans on the plane, so McCainís and MSM immediate yelling that Russia shot down the Malaysian airliner is supposed to put a rift between EU and Russia and Malaysia and Russia.

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine? The Energy Hidden Agenda
« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2014, 05:51:25 PM »
Armstrong say's he is tipped its all about energy markets and money.

Hidden Energy Agenda?

                                             

 
We are getting info from reliable sources that there may be another layer to the USA v Russian conflict. Just as the entire Syrian agenda was to arm terrorists to topple the Syrian government in order to push through a pipeline to cut off the energy monopoly in Europe held by Russia, we may be actually seeing another motive here. The projections of fracking technology that the USA will become a net exporter of energy has set the stage for another perhaps covert move Ė sanctions against Russia to open the European market for energy. In this new war of words and sanctions against Russia, it is the Americans who seem to be marching either totally brain-dead, or with another energy secret agenda. This very will may be all about one thing -:taking the Russian energy market from them. To turn off Russia as a competitor, the Russian president is to be internationally isolated. The shooting down of flight MH17 is playing into this agenda and comes precisely at the right moment to aid the U.S. strategy on energy. We will keep you advised on this matter.

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/07/21/the-energy-hidden-agenda/  :icon_study: :-\



Offline Surly1

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine? The Energy Hidden Agenda
« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2014, 05:56:50 PM »
Armstrong say's he is tipped its all about energy markets and money.

Hidden Energy Agenda?

                                             

 
We are getting info from reliable sources that there may be another layer to the USA v Russian conflict. Just as the entire Syrian agenda was to arm terrorists to topple the Syrian government in order to push through a pipeline to cut off the energy monopoly in Europe held by Russia, we may be actually seeing another motive here. The projections of fracking technology that the USA will become a net exporter of energy has set the stage for another perhaps covert move Ė sanctions against Russia to open the European market for energy. In this new war of words and sanctions against Russia, it is the Americans who seem to be marching either totally brain-dead, or with another energy secret agenda. This very will may be all about one thing -:taking the Russian energy market from them. To turn off Russia as a competitor, the Russian president is to be internationally isolated. The shooting down of flight MH17 is playing into this agenda and comes precisely at the right moment to aid the U.S. strategy on energy. We will keep you advised on this matter.

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2014/07/21/the-energy-hidden-agenda/  :icon_study: :-\

Absolutely. There have been some articles reposted here in the Forum that maintain it's all about the pipelines/oil and gas markets.

And then big oil will be able to play the "national security" card to reverse US law to enable sale of domestic oil. Which will mandate the completion of Keystone XL, etc.

Which ought to last for 36 months or so.

And then what?
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Offline g

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Re: False Flag Attack in Ukraine?
« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2014, 06:10:43 PM »
Quote
Absolutely. There have been some articles reposted here in the Forum that maintain it's all about the pipelines/oil and gas markets.

And then big oil will be able to play the "national security" card to reverse US law to enable sale of domestic oil. Which will mandate the completion of Keystone XL, etc.

Which ought to last for 36 months or so.

And then what?

Surly, I am so bewildered at this point it, In a maze of confusion.

It is so difficult for me to believe my government would down a plane with 300 innocent people on board for and oil market.

But deep down I know I just don't want to believe it, if you know what I mean.   :-[

 

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