Poll

Can the Death and Defeat of Death (the wages of sin) by Jesus Christ through Crucifixion be explained by Logic?

Yes
0 (0%)
No
4 (57.1%)
I don't know
0 (0%)
No Opinion
0 (0%)
Yes & No at the Same Time
3 (42.9%)

Total Members Voted: 7

AuthorTopic: Risking/Giving Your Life to Save Another  (Read 29959 times)

Offline Surly1

  • Administrator
  • Master Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 12505
    • View Profile
    • Doomstead Diner
Re: Risking/Giving Your Life to Save Another
« Reply #60 on: July 31, 2014, 05:15:53 AM »
Sure you can, as long as you control the Power of the State Purse and/or the Military. Ideologues throughout history have managed to wipe out HUNDREDS of millions this way. Whether this rampage is accomplished through the precepts of theocracy, socialism, industrial capitalism, Josey Walesianism... all distinctions without a difference. The end result is Concentrated Power and many many dead people.

And don't forget madness.  As I mentioned in my original article, Pol Pot is useful as an example of what happens to people who wield unlimited power of life and death over others. It's a long dissent into paranoia and madness; who indeed can you trust?  You remain convinced that somebody in your inner circle is out to get you, and your  actions invariably prove that you are correct, as someone invariably is.

There is a reason that the God of the Old Testament says, "Vengeance is mine."

Yes, and also the factions of radical nationalist or religious ideologues who may eventually get their hands on a WMD and end up slaughtering many more innocent people than any of those billionaires or brutal dictators. Clearly it's not so much about money with these people, rather it's a matter of IDEOLOGY. And RE's neo-Eugenic plan has NO criteria or contingencies for dealing with this kind of Evil, which I believe is on brutal display in the Mideast right now.


The next generation in Gaza. Imagine the ideological mindset of those who survive the Zionist war of extermination.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 32019
    • View Profile
Re: Risking/Giving Your Life to Save Another
« Reply #61 on: July 31, 2014, 05:24:04 AM »
This has ZERO to do with Ideology, in MENA or here on the Diner pages.

It is 100% about Resource Depletion and Population Overshoot.  All the rest is distraction.

RE
SAVE AS MANY AS YOU CAN

Offline Surly1

  • Administrator
  • Master Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 12505
    • View Profile
    • Doomstead Diner
Re: Risking/Giving Your Life to Save Another
« Reply #62 on: July 31, 2014, 05:37:21 AM »
This has ZERO to do with Ideology, in MENA or here on the Diner pages.

It is 100% about Resource Depletion and Population Overshoot.  All the rest is distraction.

RE

And THAT is your ideology.

It is painfully obvious that ideology is a tool  for control of the "useful idiots," the Brown shirts who do the dirty work of the elites who pull their strings. It's always been this way. And when you reluctantly don the heavy crown of the Orkin Man, you will need your own brownshirts to round up the billionaires and operate the guillotines, yes?
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 32019
    • View Profile
Re: Risking/Giving Your Life to Save Another
« Reply #63 on: July 31, 2014, 05:46:08 AM »
This has ZERO to do with Ideology, in MENA or here on the Diner pages.

It is 100% about Resource Depletion and Population Overshoot.  All the rest is distraction.

RE

And THAT is your ideology.

It is painfully obvious that ideology is a tool  for control of the "useful idiots," the Brown shirts who do the dirty work of the elites who pull their strings. It's always been this way. And when you reluctantly don the heavy crown of the Orkin Man, you will need your own brownshirts to round up the billionaires and operate theaiguillotines, yes?

Nope.

As I have said MANY times, this devolves to Pigman vs Pigman.  They will off each other.  We just need to PROTECT & DEFEND our own Communities.  There may be some Cleanup necessary, but 99% of the Dirty Work will be done by the Power Seekers Offing each other.

You guys just don't seem to grasp the dynamic at work, no matter how I try to explain it.  It is very strictly numerical, it has nothing to do with ideology.  It is how population reduction works with Homo Sapiens.

One more time for the Terminally Dense.

THE MEEK SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH.

RIGHT AFTER THE MEEK GET VERY, VERY ANGRY.


RE
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 05:59:03 AM by RE »
SAVE AS MANY AS YOU CAN

Offline Bob S.

  • Bussing Staff
  • **
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
Re: Risking/Giving Your Life to Save Another
« Reply #64 on: July 31, 2014, 08:47:48 AM »
Eddie - GO -

OFC, you guys are right also - although my restatement is one often used - **Love of money is the root of all kinds of evil** I believe would be more precise.

I mentioned it to point out that since you all are talking about lynching and torturing folk, it would be a really duh moment if you discovered your bloodletting frenzy was the result of a mis-statement :)

And I believe the notion that having money is by default loving money is in error.

If you love your possessions enough to rent storage for your *extra stuff* - then would you be evil? That $75 a month could save a starving child or three -- but your love of stuff enables their misery??

Offline Ashvin

  • Contrarian
  • Sous Chef
  • *
  • Posts: 2248
    • View Profile
Re: Risking/Giving Your Life to Save Another
« Reply #65 on: July 31, 2014, 08:48:41 AM »

So what? The fact that someone can sacrifice something multiple times does not make it any less of a sacrifice.

That is obviously untrue. 

If Jesus is God, he has an Unlimited Credit Card with No Limit on Sacrifice. There is no sacrifice as long as the credit card limit is INFINITE, which it is for GOD.

Only if Jesus PERMANENTLY for ALL ETERNITY gave up Godhood would he have made a Sacrifice.  Even according to Scripture He did not do that.  He promised to COME BACK.  No Sacrifice was made here.

RE

??

So there is no sacrifice unless the person gives up the very nature of their existence? WTF are you talking about?

As I said before, God CANNOT do what you are suggesting even if He wanted to. He is limited by the constraints of logical possibility, apparently unlike your arguments here.

God freely gave up something that He values greatly in His own divine experience, and it was given up FOR ALL TIME. ----> SACRIFICE

Offline Ashvin

  • Contrarian
  • Sous Chef
  • *
  • Posts: 2248
    • View Profile
Re: Risking/Giving Your Life to Save Another
« Reply #66 on: July 31, 2014, 09:14:21 AM »
This has ZERO to do with Ideology, in MENA or here on the Diner pages.

It is 100% about Resource Depletion and Population Overshoot.  All the rest is distraction.

RE

Nonsense. The very IDEA that pop. overshoot and resource depletion are problematic is rooted in an ideology (or several).

In MENA, you have Radical Muslim ideology which can be used to justify the massacring of innocent Muslims, Hindus, Secularists, Christians AND Jews (more or less in that order, and more accurately the genocide of the latter, in congruence with rising neo-Nazi ideology), when any of those people are seen as a threat to an expanding Islamic Empire, as well as "promises" in scripture (OT and Koran).

You also have Radical Secular ideology, which can be used to justify the massacring of innocent civilians in general when a utilitarian/modernist/rationalist/materialistic "cost" vs. "benefit" analysis has determined it promote material growth and further concentration of wealth. Then you have Radical Jewish and Conservative Christian Ideology, which can justify the massacring of innocent Muslims when they are seen as an impediment to the fulfillment of "promises" of territory and blessings in scripture (OT) and/or the ushering in of the "End Times".

That's just a brief and crude summary, perhaps a bit too simplistic. But the point is that these ideologies go beyond a simple motivation to secure money and resources. They have all been around long before the rise of fossil fuels, the global economy and global finance, and they have guided the Rich and the Poor alike. They have all been burnt into the consciousness of millions if not billions of people. At the end of the day, what we have here is a Battle of IDEAS. That's exactly what your Orkin Man proposal is as well. You can't write it off as 'the natural outcome of collapse' and expect us to believe you are the ONLY person on Earth immune to ideology.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 09:16:49 AM by Ashvin »

Online Eddie

  • Administrator
  • Master Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 13922
    • View Profile
Re: Risking/Giving Your Life to Save Another
« Reply #67 on: July 31, 2014, 09:24:51 AM »
If you love your possessions enough to rent storage for your *extra stuff* - then would you be evil? That $75 a month could save a starving child or three -- but your love of stuff enables their misery??

I'm so evil I have a business that rents storage to other people, enabling them to protect their toys from the weather and thereby starve a whole village of children.

However, only RE and UB have come out in favor of lynching and torture. I might waste enough money to run an orphanage, but I draw the line at lynching and torture.

What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Surly1

  • Administrator
  • Master Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 12505
    • View Profile
    • Doomstead Diner
Re: Risking/Giving Your Life to Save Another
« Reply #68 on: July 31, 2014, 01:43:59 PM »
But the point is that these ideologies go beyond a simple motivation to secure money and resources. They have all been around long before the rise of fossil fuels, the global economy and global finance, and they have guided the Rich and the Poor alike. They have all been burnt into the consciousness of millions if not billions of people. At the end of the day, what we have here is a Battle of IDEAS. That's exactly what your Orkin Man proposal is as well. You can't write it off as 'the natural outcome of collapse' and expect us to believe you are the ONLY person on Earth immune to ideology.

RE, you need to post this as the Quote of the Month. If I knew how, I'd do it myself.

Pigman v. Pigman is just one scenario among many, and it is as "inevitable" as a 20 per cent chance of rain.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline Surly1

  • Administrator
  • Master Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 12505
    • View Profile
    • Doomstead Diner
Re: Risking/Giving Your Life to Save Another
« Reply #69 on: July 31, 2014, 01:50:04 PM »
Eddie - GO -

OFC, you guys are right also - although my restatement is one often used - **Love of money is the root of all kinds of evil** I believe would be more precise.

I mentioned it to point out that since you all are talking about lynching and torturing folk, it would be a really duh moment if you discovered your bloodletting frenzy was the result of a mis-statement :)

And I believe the notion that having money is by default loving money is in error.

If you love your possessions enough to rent storage for your *extra stuff* - then would you be evil? That $75 a month could save a starving child or three -- but your love of stuff enables their misery??

Nobody is talking about lynching and torturing folk. That is the government's business. The scenarios discussed her are hypotheticals. Read for comprehension.

Quote
And I believe the notion that having money is by default loving money is in error.

And I believe you are mistaken. Adduce your evidence, or at least your reasoning.

Eddie has dealt with your third point in such a manner as to make no further comment from me.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 32019
    • View Profile
Re: Risking/Giving Your Life to Save Another
« Reply #70 on: July 31, 2014, 03:01:40 PM »
However, only RE and UB have come out in favor of lynching and torture. I might waste enough money to run an orphanage, but I draw the line at lynching and torture.

I have never come out in favor of Lynching.  I support Due Process of Law prior to Execution.  :icon_sunny:

Far as Torture goes, far as I know there is only one Diner who dishes out PAIN for a living. :P


RE
SAVE AS MANY AS YOU CAN

Offline agelbert

  • Global Moderator
  • Master Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 11073
    • View Profile
    • Renewable Rervolution
Re: Risking/Giving Your Life to Save Another
« Reply #71 on: July 31, 2014, 06:34:53 PM »
Quote
This has ZERO to do with Ideology, in MENA or here on the Diner pages.

It is 100% about Resource Depletion and Population Overshoot. All the rest is distraction.

RE

        The above is YOUR "CALORIC iNTAKE IS IT" bias on full selectively rational display.


Proof that YOU are right and the ONLY metric that "covers all the bases" in defining EVIL is having lots of money is one that can never be suitably countered to your satisfaction.

WHY?

Money is and always has been, a symbol of power and resources, the more money ,the more power to dominate, use, exploit and abuse fellow life forms and the environment. :evil4:

You don't address the dirt poor, but very smart psychopath who becomes a "self made billionaire" BEFORE he gets there. It's one of several "silly" nuances that Ashvin, Surly, Eddie (and by the way, a dentist certainly DOES NOT earn his living by inflicting pain - that was a cheap shot!), GO and I, for various reasons  ;D, continue to bring forward to demonstrate to you that, not only is your FINAL SOLUTION, overly simplistic, IT WON'T WORK! 


I'm not saying you are not capable of discerning right from wrong and judging human good and bad behavior; I AM saying that you are putting yourself on a pedestal of righteousness! The INSTANT you HAVE the power to strip the power and resources (money) from the richest people on earth, YOU are BY DEFINITION, RICHER than they are!  :evil4: What's to stop YOU from creating your OWN empire of evil fucks? Gift economy imposition? I don't think so.

As Surly said,
Quote
"
It is painfully obvious that ideology is a tool for control of the "useful idiots," the Brown shirts who do the dirty work of the elites who pull their strings. It's always been this way. And when you reluctantly don the heavy crown of the Orkin Man, you will need your own brownshirts to round up the billionaires and operate the guillotines, yes?"

Ashvin said,
Quote
"Nonsense. The very IDEA that pop. overshoot and resource depletion are problematic is rooted in an ideology (or several)."

Just because RE supports an ideology, that means it's NOT an ideology?  There is enough energy GEOTHERMALLY alone to completely power ALL of our civilization. WTF are you talking about with resource depletion? Planned, contrived, fake, fossil fuel war profiteering BULLSHIT predatory resource "depletion" to GAME the supply/demand of the rubes is not REAL RESOURCE DEPLETION.


You say you are working in the REAL WORLD. Well, so am I. And I understand we have resources out the ying yang to do everything needed and much more. That's based on SCIENCE and caloric intake, not pie in the sky.

YOU claim YOU base your calculations on hard realities. No, you base them on your firm belief that there is NO solution to the world's problems as long as EVIL people dominate society. WE AGREE! 

But the evil fucks aren't dominating because WE LACK RESOURCES.  That's where you took a logical long walk off a short pier.  :emthdown:

The collapse you are counting on will only happen if FORCED upon us by the greedballs.  Yeah, I KNOW what you think of THAT statement... You can disagree till the cows come home, but you CANNOT claim we DO NOT have the energy and resources to keep civilization going for CENTURIES.  :icon_sunny: But, of course, you DO because THAT is YOUR IDEOLOGY.


Go ahead and yell BULLSHIT! That's what you always do instead of calmly adding up those 23,000 TW/YEAR  of SOLAR alone versus about 20TW/year we need to run civilization. Sigh...   


Ashvin made a point a while ago that is keeper for me. It finally put a logical thought chain into words what I have struggled with to put in words all my life! 


And yeah, what he said has EVERYTHING to do with your assumption (wrong in my view) that you can make our society equitable and decent by limiting power over the evil predatory piggies (including playing Whak-A-Mole as a "king" for any poor folks with "piggy" tendencies in the future).

Ashvin said,
Quote
"The moral imperative of selfless behavior starts to become a rationalist calculation of cost vs. benefits. It's all well and good for us to say here, "BUT, loving our neighbors (let alone enemies) will always bring us greater benefits than costs, so we'll always do it!", but history bears out the exact opposite. When individuals and societies start to think that the costs of helping others gets too high, it's the FIRST thing to go out the window."

Get it, RE? YOU take over the planet, off  the piggies  and GUESS WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?  


That is, WHAT HAPPENS when you help say 106 million people in barrios in all the poorest cities of the world get adequate nutrition, only to watch many millions become organized criminal bands preying on each other and the nearby middle class condo residents?



I'll tell you what happens; THIS:
"When individuals and societies start to think that the costs of helping others gets too high, it's the FIRST thing to go out the window."

Face it, RE. Righting the world's wrongs is a job only God knows how to do. The fact that He hasn't done it to your satisfaction doesn't mean you can take over the duties of the Great Slacker in the Sky, so to speak. YOU think He has fallen down on the job! That is IDEOLOGY.

I don't pretend to understand God; but I know the best way to do the RIGHT THING in this world is to OBEY HIM and respect all life within my limited abilities.

Playing God is what smart people, many who start out with the best of intentions, many of them church leaders, many of them with brilliant minds, all of them ambitious, clever and reasonable, have done to screw up this world, despoil its beauty and prey on its innocents, thereby transforming a grand venture of noble undertaking into a celebration of corruption and evil. Don't think it can't happen to YOU.  PLUS playing GOD =   




Power REALLY DOES CORRUPT. Corruption is just another word for EVIL.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 06:48:52 PM by agelbert »
Leges         Sine    Moribus      Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 32019
    • View Profile
Re: Risking/Giving Your Life to Save Another
« Reply #72 on: July 31, 2014, 07:02:43 PM »

Face it, RE. Righting the world's wrongs is a job only God knows how to do. The fact that He hasn't done it to your satisfaction doesn't mean you can take over the duties of the Great Slacker in the Sky, so to speak.

So then you don't approve of my sentencing Ted Bundy to Life in Prison?  Only God can sentence Evil people to prison, I can't do this job to help right the wrongs of the world?

HTF do you figure the world's wrongs will get fixed?  You think God is gonna drop in here and do something?

RE
SAVE AS MANY AS YOU CAN

Offline agelbert

  • Global Moderator
  • Master Chef
  • *****
  • Posts: 11073
    • View Profile
    • Renewable Rervolution
Re: Risking/Giving Your Life to Save Another
« Reply #73 on: July 31, 2014, 07:40:36 PM »
Quote
HTF do you figure the world's wrongs will get fixed?  You think God is gonna drop in here and do something?

I'm not holding my breath waiting for God to DO something before I die. But yeah, I think He eventually will Do something. I don't have a clue when that will be.

I have often enjoyed fantasies of fixing the problem of the planet. Killing bad guys was often right up there as step one. If I HAD the power, I have to admit I might have done it.  :evil4: I hate all the horrible and excruciatingly unjust living conditions mankind has visited upon his fellow man and other life forms as much as you do.

I've come to the conclusion that a productive prison system is the best we can hope for where the motivation to avoid destructive behavior is working in prison. Of course, that "business model" has already been thoroughly corrupted by corporations to shaft the poor AGAIN.  :P

The bottom line for ME is that I have to live inside of ME with memories of what I have DONE. Consequently, I don't want to take up the sword to slay bad guys. I would rather die. And of course, I will.

That said, I'm not dead yet.  ;D So who knows what tomorrow will bring? What you do here by connecting the dots to show people how their actions contribute to a world run by evil is a service to God, in my view. If you do nothing else, I will always honor you for dispensing with prissy, evasive, self serving excuses people put up for not resisting evil and making it fucking clear they are part of the problem, not the solution. That's GOOD WORK! And you ARE doing it.  :icon_sunny:

We all have our gifts. Mine exclude manning the barricades. If enough people GET IT about what they are DOING to HELP evil, we CAN put the nutcracker to the balls of the billionaires. Maybe that is wishful thinking, but like in Samso, Denmark, an equitable, sustainable human society can be achieved and while ALL the evil can't be eradicated by human agency, we can give it a run for its money.     
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 07:42:56 PM by agelbert »
Leges         Sine    Moribus      Vanae   
Faith,
if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

Offline RE

  • Administrator
  • Chief Cook & Bottlewasher
  • *****
  • Posts: 32019
    • View Profile
Re: Risking/Giving Your Life to Save Another
« Reply #74 on: July 31, 2014, 10:00:00 PM »

So there is no sacrifice unless the person gives up the very nature of their existence? WTF are you talking about?

Jesus isn't a person if you buy the story, He's GOD.  As long as he remains God, it's impossible to make sacrifices, because he can always unsacrifice.  Nothing is irreversible for God.

Quote
As I said before, God CANNOT do what you are suggesting even if He wanted to. He is limited by the constraints of logical possibility, apparently unlike your arguments here.

Of course he could, he even did it temporarily according to legend.  He just would have had to make his death permanent and renounce Godhood for all Eternity.  THAT would be a sacrifice.

Quote
God freely gave up something that He values greatly in His own divine experience, and it was given up FOR ALL TIME. ----> SACRIFICE

He gave up nothing.  He's still God and worshipped by millions of Fundies all over the FSoA.  You could even argue he gained from this by getting a lot of new Followers.

RE
SAVE AS MANY AS YOU CAN

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
2 Replies
1477 Views
Last post March 29, 2014, 06:40:24 PM
by loy0
0 Replies
587 Views
Last post November 26, 2015, 03:14:27 AM
by RE
0 Replies
62 Views
Last post March 30, 2018, 10:58:30 AM
by azozeo