Poll

Which is the BETTER definition of sacrifice?

"The act of giving up something of personal value for the benefit of others with no expectation direct or immediate benefit to one's self"
2 (40%)
"The act of giving up something of personal value that you can never get back for the benefit of others with no ultimate benefit to one's self"
2 (40%)
I don't know
0 (0%)
Neither of those are good definitions
1 (20%)

Total Members Voted: 5

Voting closed: August 12, 2014, 08:28:07 AM

AuthorTopic: God, Sacrifice and Ethics (TWO POLLS)  (Read 4217 times)

Offline Eddie

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Re: God, Sacrifice and Ethics (TWO POLLS)
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2014, 07:30:35 AM »
There are lots of good people everywhere. But we also have these marginalized, radicalized monsters whom we've created with our foreign policies of oppression. They're real, and their numbers are ever growing. Our good friends the Saudis, are making sure that no child will be left behind in the indoctrination process, building so-called "schools" all over the Muslim world that are little more than training centers for suicide bombers and sword wielding true believers.

Now if the Ayatollahs and the Mullahs called up the Pope...and they all sat down and made nice, and the rhetoric from the mosques and the Wahaabi schools was toned down, maybe some positive dialog could ensue. But that is not happening.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Online knarf

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Re: God, Sacrifice and Ethics (TWO POLLS)
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2014, 09:10:41 AM »
@Ashvin What I meant that might have been phrased poorly is that you can be of any belief system and still go around killing people. It does not matter which belief system it is. No one can judge another persons thoughts or motives because they are hidden deep within each individual, so one can never know if a person is going to treat others well by what they believe. There is no deterministic nihilism in this, it is just the plain, realistic, truth. Somewhere it was said "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
Mark Twain 'There are many humorous things in the world; among them, the white man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages.'

Offline Eddie

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Re: God, Sacrifice and Ethics (TWO POLLS)
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2014, 09:10:59 AM »
In fact I personally think that we will not see in our lifetime human beings coming to any common understanding of our dire situations, but that most people will see that it has become a dog  eat dog world, and do anything including robbing and killing to stay alive.
  I predicted years ago that people will start going out into the rural areas where people own McMasions and they will rob and injure the residents. This last Monday we were coming down the driveway of people we clean for, and there was a Sheriff hiding behind a bale of hay. We stopped and he told us that there had been a robbery of one such residence and that they were still trying to capture the last one of four people who broke in. This was 15 miles from the nearest town. As food prices keep increasing and the poor can not feed them selves or their families we can expect more and more of this behavior. So we do not need to go very far to find danger in our everyday life. It seems like we have to give up this idea of a perfect world and start preparing for civil collapse, and the dangers that entails.   


Well, I'm not quite so willing to go that far. The sincere efforts of good people like you and many others in the world give me something to hang on to, even in the face of looming hardship and chaos.

In spite of the bad behavior of some self-centered people, the prevailing human behavior might be one of kindness and helping. I believe that we will see a lot of very willing sacrifice on the part of everyday people, and that many will open their hearts and their homes and their pantries.

It's easy to get discouraged, because there is so much bad news every day now. Don't let it all get to you. Sometimes i may come off in my responses here as being very negative, but I'm not really so much that way. I just tend to call bullshit on these feel-good articles that don't seem reality based.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 10:41:53 AM by Eddie »
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Online knarf

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Re: God, Sacrifice and Ethics (TWO POLLS)
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2014, 09:14:41 AM »
I really, really hope you are close to right about people changing and helping each other out, it's that "cup half empty, or cup half full" view.  :)
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 10:07:52 AM by knarf »
Mark Twain 'There are many humorous things in the world; among them, the white man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages.'

Offline Ashvin

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Re: God, Sacrifice and Ethics (TWO POLLS)
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2014, 09:20:58 AM »
@Ashvin What I meant that might have been phrased poorly is that you can be of any belief system and still go around killing people. It does not matter which belief system it is. No one can judge another persons thoughts or motives because they are hidden deep within each individual, so one can never know if a person is going to treat others well by what they believe. There is no deterministic nihilism in this, it is just the plain, realistic, truth.


Yeah but the belief systems still matter, some are definitely more prone to class-warfare, racism, ethnocentrism, nationalism, etc. than others, and the use of violence to promote such end goals.

The reason I mentioned deterministic nihilism is because that seems to be the vibe of another comment on your thread, "The human species needs to go extinct".

Quote
Somewhere it was said "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

It was said by Jesus in the Gospels. Which, btw, give us a great example of an ethical system which clearly condemns the mistreatment and marginalization of other people groups out of a sense of self-righteousness.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 09:23:02 AM by Ashvin »

Online knarf

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Re: God, Sacrifice and Ethics (TWO POLLS)
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2014, 10:07:10 AM »


Yeah but the belief systems still matter, some are definitely more prone to class-warfare, racism, ethnocentrism, nationalism, etc. than others, and the use of violence to promote such end goals.

The reason I mentioned deterministic nihilism is because that seems to be the vibe of another comment on your thread, "The human species needs to go extinct".



I do not think that belief systems matter. I think the human being, in ALL the various conditioning's that has happened to them make what the person believes they are. Our whole world is prone to  class-warfare, racism, ethnocentrism, nationalism, etc.. That is where the statement that is attributed to Jesus becomes important. Give up judging others in any way, weather it be cultural, religious, ethnic, whatever....just quit judging is what he meant, because it only is  a true reflection of what the person judging is like inside.

BTW....you have to go over to the post i made last night about "The Human specie needs to go extinct". I posted the reasoning behind such a drastic idea. I was a bad boy......... :D


« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 10:11:30 AM by knarf »
Mark Twain 'There are many humorous things in the world; among them, the white man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages.'

Offline Eddie

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Re: God, Sacrifice and Ethics (TWO POLLS)
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2014, 10:24:15 AM »
The reason I mentioned deterministic nihilism is because that seems to be the vibe of another comment on your thread, "The human species needs to go extinct".

I can't seem to find that thread, but i read that one last night and I wanted to respond to that too.

Knarf, the very fact that you can intellectually discuss whether or not someone should or should not reproduce makes you very different from most people in this world. For most people, reproducing is not an intellectual decision...it's a biological imperative that they have no more control over than does a bonobo.

And it's this beautiful paradox...anyone who sees that humans should not have so many babies is probably someone who is more fit to actually have babies and raise them to follow a sustainable path than most other people. So the people who hesitate to reproduce are the very ones who should...and those who reproduce like bunny rabbits and with no more forethought, are the ones who should not.

There's irony there if you look for it.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Ashvin

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Re: God, Sacrifice and Ethics (TWO POLLS)
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2014, 12:33:36 PM »
I do not think that belief systems matter. I think the human being, in ALL the various conditioning's that has happened to them make what the person believes they are.

Do you mean that we it was all deterministic and our freedom to choose what we believe is an illusion?

Quote
Our whole world is prone to  class-warfare, racism, ethnocentrism, nationalism, etc.. That is where the statement that is attributed to Jesus becomes important. Give up judging others in any way, weather it be cultural, religious, ethnic, whatever....just quit judging is what he meant, because it only is  a true reflection of what the person judging is like inside.

Quit trying to judge the hearts of other people, but DON'T quit judging expressed ideas and beliefs, especially the ones we ourselves hold to.

Online knarf

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Re: God, Sacrifice and Ethics (TWO POLLS)
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2014, 12:48:19 PM »
I do not believe we have a soul, or personal self. I think that is an illusion. So for me there is nothing that has sinned, and nothing that needs to be saved. I do not think there is a heaven or hell, i do not think that Jesus died on a cross to save mankind that believes that. I do not think there is a God that created the universe. So we have very little in common, except that we are both human. I can leave it there. I have no teaching that requires me to judge myself or others or to preach a belief system. I am finished playing ping pong with you, as the bible says they "have ears that can not hear." Stop trying to convince me of your Christian dogma, it will not work, ever. If I were to call something deterministic it would be the way you believe...because you have no freedom to think for yourself. It is all in Gods written word - the Bible. I just think the Bible is a story book, not the word of God. I have the freedom to think what ever I want, you do not. Which is more deterministic?
Mark Twain 'There are many humorous things in the world; among them, the white man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages.'

Online knarf

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Re: God, Sacrifice and Ethics (TWO POLLS)
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2014, 01:14:05 PM »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/WlBiLNN1NhQ&fs=1" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/WlBiLNN1NhQ&fs=1</a>
Mark Twain 'There are many humorous things in the world; among them, the white man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages.'

Offline Ka

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Re: God, Sacrifice and Ethics (TWO POLLS)
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2014, 01:58:17 PM »
I do not believe we have a soul, or personal self. I think that is an illusion.

If the personal self is an illusion, what is it that is telling us what it believes?

Quote
I have no teaching that requires me to judge myself or others or to preach a belief system.

Self-examination is, then, a waste of time? I would call this escapism, an answer to life's problems that accepts no responsibility, no further effort.


Offline Ashvin

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Re: God, Sacrifice and Ethics (TWO POLLS)
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2014, 02:38:39 PM »
I do not believe we have a soul, or personal self. I think that is an illusion. So for me there is nothing that has sinned, and nothing that needs to be saved. I do not think there is a heaven or hell, i do not think that Jesus died on a cross to save mankind that believes that. I do not think there is a God that created the universe. So we have very little in common, except that we are both human. I can leave it there. I have no teaching that requires me to judge myself or others or to preach a belief system. I am finished playing ping pong with you, as the bible says they "have ears that can not hear." Stop trying to convince me of your Christian dogma, it will not work, ever. If I were to call something deterministic it would be the way you believe...because you have no freedom to think for yourself. It is all in Gods written word - the Bible. I just think the Bible is a story book, not the word of God. I have the freedom to think what ever I want, you do not. Which is more deterministic?

I'm not sure why you got so perturbed... I was just trying to figure out what your point about "belief systems" was.

"I have no teaching that requires me to judge myself or others or to preach a belief system"

You clearly HAVE BEEN preaching a belief system here, and you clearly ARE judging mine:

"If I were to call something deterministic it would be the way you believe...because you have no freedom to think for yourself"

You are also taking bible verses out of context to promote your own belief system over others.

Mt. 7:5 "First remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye."

Online knarf

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Re: God, Sacrifice and Ethics (TWO POLLS)
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2014, 02:42:57 PM »
I do not believe we have a soul, or personal self. I think that is an illusion.

If the personal self is an illusion, what is it that is telling us what it believes?

Quote
I have no teaching that requires me to judge myself or others or to preach a belief system.

Self-examination is, then, a waste of time? I would call this escapism, an answer to life's problems that accepts no responsibility, no further effort.



What makes you think I believe something? That is a HUGE assumption. A self is not required to have intelligence, and it is with the process of the sixth sense that I communicate. I do not build a personality or self around what I think. I practice keeping my mind open/empty of thoughts until someone I encounter begins a dialogue of which I just respond spontaneously. .I you read my posts i never say "I believe", come on!

Self examination is like masturbation. It is absolutely self centered. There absolutely no reason to make up a self and then start examining it. What do you hope to accomplish, polishing it, making better, getting in closer touch with it, WHAT?
Mark Twain 'There are many humorous things in the world; among them, the white man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages.'

Online knarf

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Re: God, Sacrifice and Ethics (TWO POLLS)
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2014, 02:47:32 PM »
I do not believe we have a soul, or personal self. I think that is an illusion. So for me there is nothing that has sinned, and nothing that needs to be saved. I do not think there is a heaven or hell, i do not think that Jesus died on a cross to save mankind that believes that. I do not think there is a God that created the universe. So we have very little in common, except that we are both human. I can leave it there. I have no teaching that requires me to judge myself or others or to preach a belief system. I am finished playing ping pong with you, as the bible says they "have ears that can not hear." Stop trying to convince me of your Christian dogma, it will not work, ever. If I were to call something deterministic it would be the way you believe...because you have no freedom to think for yourself. It is all in Gods written word - the Bible. I just think the Bible is a story book, not the word of God. I have the freedom to think what ever I want, you do not. Which is more deterministic?

I'm not sure why you got so perturbed... I was just trying to figure out what your point about "belief systems" was.

"I have no teaching that requires me to judge myself or others or to preach a belief system"

You clearly HAVE BEEN preaching a belief system here, and you clearly ARE judging mine:

"If I were to call something deterministic it would be the way you believe...because you have no freedom to think for yourself"

You are also taking bible verses out of context to promote your own belief system over others.

Mt. 7:5 "First remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye."

I am tired of having a one way conversation with a Christian devotee who will not hear anything but what the Bible says. So you have no idea what I know or what I practice and don't care, fine. I am finished talking about Christianity with you.
Mark Twain 'There are many humorous things in the world; among them, the white man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages.'

Offline Ka

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Re: God, Sacrifice and Ethics (TWO POLLS)
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2014, 03:53:13 PM »
What makes you think I believe something? That is a HUGE assumption.

Ok, I take it you are making a distinction between "I believe X" and "I think that X" or "it is my opinion that X". So do I. However, I also hold that there are X's that require a commitment. For example, you appear to be making a commitment to "the personal self is an illusion" when you say:

Quote
A self is not required to have intelligence, and it is with the process of the sixth sense that I communicate. I do not build a personality or self around what I think. I practice keeping my mind open/empty of thoughts until someone I encounter begins a dialogue of which I just respond spontaneously. .I you read my posts i never say "I believe", come on!

I call such commitment "faith". That is, one doesn't know for certain whether these X's are absolutely true, but one has committed one's thoughts and actions as if they were true. Now if you look back, you will find that that is what Ashvin has done with Christianity. It is what you are doing with your version of Buddhism, and what I am doing with my quite different version.

Quote
Self examination is like masturbation. It is absolutely self centered. There absolutely no reason to make up a self and then start examining it. What do you hope to accomplish, polishing it, making better, getting in closer touch with it, WHAT?

So Socrates was absolutely self-centered?

What I hope to accomplish through self-examination is the deconstruction of the self (but note that 'deconstruction' is not the same as 'destruction'). And what I hope to gain by deconstructing the self is my salvation (freedom from delusion) -- you know, that which the dying Buddha said we should work out with diligence.


 

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