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Offline knarf

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Re: Zero Tolerance for the Lie
« Reply #30 on: August 26, 2014, 12:25:54 PM »
agelbert says " You have a belief system which, while absolutely ethical, avoids the central issue of where we get ethics from"  No, no, no, no, I do not avoid this issue. On the contrary it is one of my most responded issues. I think they ( ethics ) are conditioned, and for the most part completely un-examined. I also see that those un-examined ethics towards religion especially are a huge reason the world is in the collapse state it is in.  After about a year of meditation ( stilling the mind ), these ethics and belief systems became quite clear to me that they where hidden in closets in my mind, and i didn't even realize it. I do not expect anyone to do a year of silent meditation, but I have a knee jerk response to statements that seem to be the truth , like quotations from the bible that people just take for granted that because they came from the great holy book the Bible, which in my opinion, all the holy books are just humans telling there story about what they think the "other" world is, and how to behave in this life so they can get there. We have a saying here "there are some things worth dying for." Well that is one of mine. Blind belief. Faith in fairy tales. Swallowing lies hook line and sinker. So I have to hold back about half the time someone on this forum justifies their essays with smatterings of Biblical versus. It makes absolutely no sense to me, sorry....but that is what happens when the mind stays empty, and does not conjure a lot of nonsense to fill in the gaps.
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Offline Golden Oxen

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Re: Zero Tolerance for the Lie
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2014, 12:56:33 PM »
agelbert says " You have a belief system which, while absolutely ethical, avoids the central issue of where we get ethics from"  No, no, no, no, I do not avoid this issue. On the contrary it is one of my most responded issues. I think they ( ethics ) are conditioned, and for the most part completely un-examined. I also see that those un-examined ethics towards religion especially are a huge reason the world is in the collapse state it is in.  After about a year of meditation ( stilling the mind ), these ethics and belief systems became quite clear to me that they where hidden in closets in my mind, and i didn't even realize it. I do not expect anyone to do a year of silent meditation, but I have a knee jerk response to statements that seem to be the truth , like quotations from the bible that people just take for granted that because they came from the great holy book the Bible, which in my opinion, all the holy books are just humans telling there story about what they think the "other" world is, and how to behave in this life so they can get there. We have a saying here "there are some things worth dying for." Well that is one of mine. Blind belief. Faith in fairy tales. Swallowing lies hook line and sinker. So I have to hold back about half the time someone on this forum justifies their essays with smatterings of Biblical versus. It makes absolutely no sense to me, sorry....but that is what happens when the mind stays empty, and does not conjure a lot of nonsense to fill in the gaps.

Poppycock Sir, What you are saying is you get pissed off when people don't agree with you and manage to control yourself , "half the time."

Why should you care if another person has been conned by fairy tales, as you call them. You should smile and accept it after your year of emptying your mind of such nonsense.

Especially when you claim the person has absolutely no chance of winning or convincing anyone, such as your experience which you alluded too?

You have your own religion, and don't want to listen or acknowledge another person's explanation of his because you decided to discard it after being an adherent to it. Discard what he has to say, like you have your former rejected religion, and leave him in peace to practice his.

You are not trying to help Ashvin, you are ridiculing and insulting someone you have the impression has not smartened up yet like you.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 01:03:37 PM by Golden Oxen »

Offline knarf

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Re: Zero Tolerance for the Lie
« Reply #32 on: August 26, 2014, 01:04:33 PM »
GO, as a detective of personal motives you stink. You can "BELIEVE" what you have to, but i told the truth...and anyone who knows me knows that I react to non-examined belief-systems. I have no religion....but you will keep on insisting that i do, because EVERYONE has to. You can not be further from the truth. Your efforts at analyzing me will not work until you have done what i have done. I will stay with my reactions to antiquated fairy tales, such as the Bible,Koran, and the Vedas. They are just paper with language printed on them. All the rest is mind generated. Defend, defend, defend.......and be sure you know the truth, because you have that great capacity.
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Offline Karpatok

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Re: Zero Tolerance for the Lie
« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2014, 01:27:24 PM »
   But Go, Knarf has had the courage of relatively full disclosure. He has given us a pretty clear description of his life's path. You and Ashvin on the other hand declare one thing and hide the other. How do you and Ashvin live in accordance with your so adamant beliefs? Does Ashvin ever do anything besides study law, gamble on the internet and preach? And exactly how does  pursuing riches and the life of an investor or gambler fit in with being a Christian? Doesn't being a true Christian involve being in the actual world with others or is it just interacting through the internet, and texting and emailing, what our lives have been reduced to?  And somebody please tell me how one is a good parent when one abandons one's children to the world and runs away to seclusion and lets  someone else bear the responsibility for the fruits of sexuality. How does one have the luxury of meditation when one is supplying the needs of others?  None of this makes any sense to me. Karpatok

Offline Golden Oxen

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Re: Zero Tolerance for the Lie
« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2014, 01:37:11 PM »
GO, as a detective of personal motives you stink. You can "BELIEVE" what you have to, but i told the truth...and anyone who knows me knows that I react to non-examined belief-systems. I have no religion....but you will keep on insisting that i do, because EVERYONE has to. You can not be further from the truth. Your efforts at analyzing me will not work until you have done what i have done. I will stay with my reactions to antiquated fairy tales, such as the Bible,Koran, and the Vedas. They are just paper with language printed on them. All the rest is mind generated. Defend, defend, defend.......and be sure you know the truth, because you have that great capacity.

Thanks for your reply Knarf, my opinion remains unaltered.                         Peace, GO

 

Offline knarf

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Re: Zero Tolerance for the Lie
« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2014, 01:39:32 PM »
K says " And somebody please tell me how one is a good parent when one abandons one's children to the world and runs away to seclusion and lets  someone else bear the responsibility for the fruits of sexuality. How does one have the luxury of meditation when one is supplying the needs of others?" If this applying to me, maybe not but sounds like it. After the divorce my wife found a a guy within 6 months married him and moved 400 miles from where we lived. I was allowed to pay child support by agreement with the monks here, and traveled about every 4 weeks 800 miles to visit my children.
  Meditation takes about 45 minutes twice a day, it is just usually to hard to stop one's thought process to break through to one's original mind. We have had so many GO's and Ashvins visit here and leave in a big huff because we do not support their belief systems....this is nothing new. :)
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 01:56:54 PM by knarf »
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Offline knarf

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Re: Zero Tolerance for the Lie
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2014, 01:42:59 PM »
GO says "Thanks for your reply Knarf, my opinion remains unaltered.                         Peace, GO"  Well you know the old saying about opinions.....Everyone has got one, just like an ( body part that should not be expressed here).     
 
 Goodbye
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Offline Karpatok

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Re: Zero Tolerance for the Lie
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2014, 01:50:06 PM »
K says " And somebody please tell me how one is a good parent when one abandons one's children to the world and runs away to seclusion and lets  someone else bear the responsibility for the fruits of sexuality. How does one have the luxury of meditation when one is supplying the needs of others?" If this applying to me, maybe not but sounds like it. After the divorce my wife found a a guy within 6 months married him and moved 400 miles from where we lived. I was allowed to pay child support by agreement with the monks here, and traveled about every 4 weeks 800 miles to visit my children.
  Meditation takes about 45 minutes twice a day, it is just usually to hard to stop one's thought process to break through to one's original mind. We have had somy GO's and Ashvins visit here and leave in a big huff because we do not support their belief systems....this is nothing new. :)
    I have so appreciated your honesty and forthrightness Knarf. Usually in these cases there is a lot of suffering all around. I didn't mean to pick on you. You have added a great deal to this forum. Thanks. Karpatok

Offline knarf

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Re: Zero Tolerance for the Lie
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2014, 01:53:20 PM »
K --Thank You.....   YOU Too!!  :)
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Offline Surly1

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Re: Zero Tolerance for the Lie
« Reply #39 on: August 26, 2014, 02:15:50 PM »

What is most confusing to me is how easily some people take offense to criticism of their views. Someone posts a video promoting Mtsar, and no one has a problem. Then I post a video and comment criticizing him, and a few people feel like I am being "intolerant". It makes no sense for people to feel that way, especially on a Doomer forum where critical thinking and discussion/debate is supposed to be the norm.

That's why I always enjoy when Ka gets involved, because I know he will consider my arguments and respond with counter-arguments if he feels that I have erred. He never resorts to ad hom, armchair psychoanalysis or anything of that sort. Anyway, getting back to Tsarion, I have no idea whether he is a Satanic disinfo agent as some Christian critics suggest. It's an interesting possibility to consider, but it's also besides the point.

I'm mostly interested in whether he and other New Agers are being intellectually honest in their analysis of scripture and Christian theology, and I have found that 99% of the time they are not. Their distortions are not inconsequential either, IMO. So I will criticize people like Mtsar and the New Agers as much as I will Dawkins and the New Atheists. I'm not trying to squash the voices of anyone who believes in those guys. In fact, I am most interested in hearing how they respond and defend their beliefs.

I post again on this thread in trepidation, but I urge everyone to read Ashvin's response carefully and take it to heart.

Ashvin will tell you, if asked, that I carry no brief for fundamentalist Christianity, yet what he is saying is true. If we are going to post up thoughts, videos and links, let's treat them all with the understanding that this is how this person makes sense of their world, a matter of individual experience and discernment. A matter of taste. And the Latin phrase, De gustibus non est disputandum means"In matters of taste, there can be no disputes." These are subjective opinions that cannot be "right" or "wrong," by any reasonable standard, or one upon which we could possibly agree.

No one is likely to be convinced or argued off their position by anything another posts-- but they might be invited to learn more about a specific point of view when offered. When Ka and Ashvin tune up it is like a philosophical seminar...

In short, argue the point and not the man (or woman), and remember that everyone you meet is walking a road as hard as the one you are walking.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

Offline knarf

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Re: Zero Tolerance for the Lie
« Reply #40 on: August 26, 2014, 02:35:59 PM »
Surly you are mostly correct in my view. But for one thing, i do not post articles or videos that i agree with. They are just posted so others make see different points of view...neither good nor bad...positive or negative....promotional.. or not promotional. I rarely speak out personally because I have no desire to. When prodded and poked i tend to respond, just to get the poker off my back , kinda like when gardening and a horse fly keeps trying to land on my sweaty back....i have learned to use a cap, and still go weeding while i swat at the annoying horse fly. This all feels the same way. I do not hate the horse fly. I understand that it is conditioned to do what it is doing. I do not hate anyone on this forum, but if poked sometimes my hat comes off and swing to get rid of the nasty pest. LOL  :)
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Offline Karpatok

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Re: Zero Tolerance for the Lie
« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2014, 02:45:53 PM »

What is most confusing to me is how easily some people take offense to criticism of their views. Someone posts a video promoting Mtsar, and no one has a problem. Then I post a video and comment criticizing him, and a few people feel like I am being "intolerant". It makes no sense for people to feel that way, especially on a Doomer forum where critical thinking and discussion/debate is supposed to be the norm.

That's why I always enjoy when Ka gets involved, because I know he will consider my arguments and respond with counter-arguments if he feels that I have erred. He never resorts to ad hom, armchair psychoanalysis or anything of that sort. Anyway, getting back to Tsarion, I have no idea whether he is a Satanic disinfo agent as some Christian critics suggest. It's an interesting possibility to consider, but it's also besides the point.

I'm mostly interested in whether he and other New Agers are being intellectually honest in their analysis of scripture and Christian theology, and I have found that 99% of the time they are not. Their distortions are not inconsequential either, IMO. So I will criticize people like Mtsar and the New Agers as much as I will Dawkins and the New Atheists. I'm not trying to squash the voices of anyone who believes in those guys. In fact, I am most interested in hearing how they respond and defend their beliefs.

I post again on this thread in trepidation, but I urge everyone to read Ashvin's response carefully and take it to heart.

Ashvin will tell you, if asked, that I carry no brief for fundamentalist Christianity, yet what he is saying is true. If we are going to post up thoughts, videos and links, let's treat them all with the understanding that this is how this person makes sense of their world, a matter of individual experience and discernment. A matter of taste. And the Latin phrase, De gustibus non est disputandum means"In matters of taste, there can be no disputes." These are subjective opinions that cannot be "right" or "wrong," by any reasonable standard, or one upon which we could possibly agree.

No one is likely to be convinced or argued off their position by anything another posts-- but they might be invited to learn more about a specific point of view when offered. When Ka and Ashvin tune up it is like a philosophical seminar...

In short, argue the point and not the man (or woman), and remember that everyone you meet is walking a road as hard as the one you are walking.
    There is no human being who has not or does not "walk a hard road". Does professing and flinging " Christianity" have nothing to do with how one "LIVES" one's life? Is one a so called Christian only because one bleats or do ACTIONS speak louder than WORDS?  Karpatok

Offline Karpatok

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Re: Zero Tolerance for the Lie
« Reply #42 on: August 26, 2014, 02:52:36 PM »
  Surly, you have demonstrated with Occupy. You have helped to feed the hungry in the streets.  You have taught by showing the lies and hypocrisy of the American state and way of life. You have walked the talk and paid plenty of dues. I admire that. Thank you. Karpatok

Offline Golden Oxen

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Re: Zero Tolerance for the Lie
« Reply #43 on: August 26, 2014, 02:58:21 PM »
   But Go, Knarf has had the courage of relatively full disclosure. He has given us a pretty clear description of his life's path. You and Ashvin on the other hand declare one thing and hide the other. How do you and Ashvin live in accordance with your so adamant beliefs? Does Ashvin ever do anything besides study law, gamble on the internet and preach? And exactly how does  pursuing riches and the life of an investor or gambler fit in with being a Christian? Doesn't being a true Christian involve being in the actual world with others or is it just interacting through the internet, and texting and emailing, what our lives have been reduced to?  And somebody please tell me how one is a good parent when one abandons one's children to the world and runs away to seclusion and lets  someone else bear the responsibility for the fruits of sexuality. How does one have the luxury of meditation when one is supplying the needs of others?  None of this makes any sense to me. Karpatok

I have no recollection of either Ashvin or myself claiming to be Jesus, only Christians.

As for my pursuit of wealth, to care for myself, put bread on the table, and care for my family that bothers you so much after your dismal failure at such endeavors.

Why not just surmise that I do it for the same reason Agelbert vigorously went after his inheritance. Perhaps I have a wife, two daughters and five grandchildren who would be in dire financial straights if I were deceased without providing for them.

Of course I'm GO so my fucking money is evil money, not good money like yours and your favored cronies.

As to this bull shit of full disclosure flag of courage and bravery you are waving, I joined here for discussion with folks of a mind that we face some serious problems and what to do about them.  If I had wished to write an autobiography about myself instead, I would have.

Besides Karpatok, I must have revealed enough about myself already. I'm a no good fucking gold grubbing evil pigman, ruthless prick with a Jesuit education, that invests in the stock market, likes Jimmy Carter, hates Hillary, lives in Bean Town, loves Maine, drinks suffering bastards, collects coins and stamps, loves to look at art, is currently a Libertarian, was in the Army, and usually posts images, news items that interest him and personal opinions, as well as his favorite poems, music, art works and quotations,  on a daily basis at the DDiner. You can't really claim I'm a silent lurker K.

Isn't that enough for you Nosey. I don't wish to reveal any more, you would treat it as you do all personal revelations about one's flaws or habits, as a means of ridicule, tormenting taunts, hate speeches, vile nasty hurtful comments.

Just look at what your trying to do with Ashvin's revelations that he plays poker, HOW FUCKING HORRIBLE, SOME CHRISTIAN HE BE.

AND THAT SCUZZ BALL GO AND HIS STOCKS, JESUS NEVER OWNED STOCKS!  There are countless other examples.

Got the picture K, that is just a small glimmer of what happens when people open up a bit about themselves to people like you.

Your courage and bravery in coming forward meant nothing to me, I didn't learn a thing from it, and believed little of it. Just another Judge Judy episode. Your postings about your opinions on TPTB and their dastardly deeds and plans are what interests me. Top Notch material                                                              Regards,   Satan Himself, GO

                                                     
GO




Offline Surly1

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Re: Zero Tolerance for the Lie
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2014, 03:07:03 PM »
  Surly, you have demonstrated with Occupy. You have helped to feed the hungry in the streets.  You have taught by showing the lies and hypocrisy of the American state and way of life. You have walked the talk and paid plenty of dues. I admire that. Thank you. Karpatok

Thanks for your kind words. What my faith means to me is that I have to walk it like I talk it, and for whatever little I have done, I still talk it far too much. And there are plenty of people I have meet, like those in the catholic Worker movement, who leave me breathless in admiration.
"It is difficult to write a paradiso when all the superficial indications are that you ought to write an apocalypse." -Ezra Pound

 

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