AuthorTopic: Boomer Doomers  (Read 17652 times)

Offline Eddie

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Re: Boomer Doomers
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2015, 08:30:09 PM »
They understood disease well enough to PURPOSEFULLY INFECT THEM WITH THE SMALLPOX


As Lewy points out, there is exactly one historical record that points to that ever happening, and even in that one case it isn't clear if it was actually carried out. The US government actively tried to vaccinate Naive Americans against smallpox as soon as the vaccine was available (1803, I think) without much success. Apparently they were anti-vaccination parents.

You've got the timeline wrong. Most of the deaths from smallpox were way earlier, back when there weren't that many settlers on the continent. It was the early traders who spread it.There is absolutely evidence that smallpox was was widely used as a weapon by the whites. Just hype there.

Smallpox is the most contagious disease known to man. If it's in the air, non-immune people will get it. You don't have to give someone a blanket. A lot of white people got it too, you know.
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Offline RE

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Re: Boomer Doomers
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2015, 08:32:16 PM »
It's so easy to make these knee-jerk accusations, but the world was a very different place.

I don't think it was too much different, just they didn't have Drones to deliver Death From Above, so they used Smallpox Infected Blankets instead.

I don't personally carry around any guilt about the Ancient History, anymore than I carry around guilt for what the FSoA Military is currently doing.  The fact that the term Genocide wasn't yet invented in 1750 doesn't make the act any less Genocidal though.  Once that you grasp that what was done was Genocide, you get a better understanding of what is being done NOW, which is not Ancient History.  It's the same story, with different weapons.

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Offline Surly1

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Re: Boomer Doomers
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2015, 08:37:40 PM »
I'm no apologist for the White Man. But you can't judge what happened back then from where we're sitting, using the same standards we'd use now. The term genocide wasn't even clearly defined until the 1950's. You have to look at history in context.

It's so easy to make these knee-jerk accusations, but the world was a very different place. An awful a lot of people have these fantasies about the nobility of the Native American tribes before the white man, and much of it is wrong. I refuse to carry guilt around about what happened back then. It's ancient history.

We're smart enough to understand what was superior about that culture, and we can, if we want to, shape a sustainable culture of our own, picking the good parts from the Native Americans, the Amish, the ancient Euro hunter gathers, Christ, the Buddha.Krishna,the Tao...even Mohammed, the Prophet.

Use what works, and move away from this consumer death cult.

I certainly agree with your last statement.

Read the Lewy article. It was certainly well researched, but ultimately an apologia for the white man ("mistakes were made...")

In his closing, he made this statement I agree with:

Quote
The Indians were not prepared to give up the nomadic life of the hunter for the sedentary life of the farmer. The new Americans, convinced of their cultural and racial superiority, were unwilling to grant the original inhabitants of the continent the vast preserve of land required by the Indians’ way of life.

And then goes on to say you can't call it genocide. OK, then, call it eradication. Extermination. Ethnic cleansing...

It's pretty clear that in the days of first contact, charges of "genocide" would be purposeless. No one understood germ theory, or why people became ill (the gods are angry...). Yet by the mid 18th century, they certainly understood the efficacy of smallpox blankets. To say that the policy of white frontiersmen vis the Indians was not one of eradication seems really disingenuous.

Lewy's article really seems to fall into the "it's different when WE do it" school of thought.

As you note, clearly the world was a different place. And it must be true that the further you were from firsthand dealings with the native peoples, the better they looked."Noble savages" were no doubt far more noble from a distance.
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Offline Eddie

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Re: Boomer Doomers
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2015, 08:39:27 PM »
"They didn't assimilate into the predominate culture"  Didn't we hear that before in regard to that other group of non Christians that supposedly got genocided in Germany? They just didn't assimilate! Next up, Muslims anyone?                  Karpatok

WTF are you smokin'?
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Surly1

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Re: Boomer Doomers
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2015, 08:40:30 PM »
"They didn't assimilate into the predominate culture"  Didn't we hear that before in regard to that other group of non Christians that supposedly got genocided in Germany? They just didn't assimilate! Next up, Muslims anyone?                  Karpatok

WTF are you smokin'?

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Offline RE

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Re: Boomer Doomers
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2015, 08:44:44 PM »
I will grant you that most of the Smallpox epidemic was unintentional, but they followed that up with numerous massacres by the FSoA Cavalry, then they killed off full herds of Buffalo to deprive them of food, then they disposessed them of their land.  The whole biz was actively pursued through the entire 18th & 19th Century, even persisting into the early 20th Century.  It was entirely purposeful.

I also will grant as true that the Natives here did plenty of their own Massacring of the White folks, but who is the INVADER here?  It's like if your Toothstead was attacked by Zombies.  In this case, the Europeans were the Zombies, and they won.  They just did not have good enough Zombie Defense Plans on Turtle Island.

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Offline Karpatok

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Re: Boomer Doomers
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2015, 08:45:25 PM »
"They didn't assimilate into the predominate culture"  Didn't we hear that before in regard to that other group of non Christians that supposedly got genocided in Germany? They just didn't assimilate! Next up, Muslims anyone?                  Karpatok

WTF are you smokin'?
[/quote    UT OH. Was that an angry and hateful question? YOU mentioned non assimilation. Unlike yourself, I smoke absolutely nothing. Karpatok

Offline Surly1

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Re: Boomer Doomers
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2015, 08:46:59 PM »
It's so easy to make these knee-jerk accusations, but the world was a very different place.

I don't think it was too much different, just they didn't have Drones to deliver Death From Above, so they used Smallpox Infected Blankets instead.

I don't personally carry around any guilt about the Ancient History, anymore than I carry around guilt for what the FSoA Military is currently doing.  The fact that the term Genocide wasn't yet invented in 1750 doesn't make the act any less Genocidal though.  Once that you grasp that what was done was Genocide, you get a better understanding of what is being done NOW, which is not Ancient History.  It's the same story, with different weapons.

RE

I think you are intentionally missing Eddie's point.

If I read him correctly, he is talking about the attitudes people had. Historical revisionism, or judging behavior of people several generations back by today's standards. As Eddie has adduced in past post, people on the frontier were locked in a battle for survival with a foe who was utterly foreign to them, utterly savage and implacably opposed to ceding their property to the whites. Natives were subhuman to them, and the whites wanted them gone, the quickest way ain't fast enough. And that was the prevailing wisdom. Phil Sheridan spoke for millions of his fellow countrymen.
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Offline Eddie

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Re: Boomer Doomers
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2015, 08:52:46 PM »
It was certainly well researched, but ultimately an apologia for the white man ("mistakes were made...")

I see it as an attempt to get past liberal white guilt and set the record straight, myself.  You should read Fehrenbach on the Comanche. His take was that the chiefs were too libertarian to ever agree between themselves on any kind of deal with the whites. Sam Houston tried hard to make peace with them, and he was a man who lived among the Cherokee as a young man, and was well accepted by them. They gave him the Raven moniker.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Eddie

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Re: Boomer Doomers
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2015, 08:54:05 PM »
If I read him correctly, he is talking about the attitudes people had. Historical revisionism, or judging behavior of people several generations back by today's standards. As Eddie has adduced in past post, people on the frontier were locked in a battle for survival with a foe who was utterly foreign to them, utterly savage and implacably opposed to ceding their property to the whites. Natives were subhuman to them, and the whites wanted them gone, the quickest way ain't fast enough. And that was the prevailing wisdom. Phil Sheridan spoke for millions of his fellow countrymen.


Yes, exactly. Thank you.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline RE

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Re: Boomer Doomers
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2015, 08:56:33 PM »
It's so easy to make these knee-jerk accusations, but the world was a very different place.

I don't think it was too much different, just they didn't have Drones to deliver Death From Above, so they used Smallpox Infected Blankets instead.

I don't personally carry around any guilt about the Ancient History, anymore than I carry around guilt for what the FSoA Military is currently doing.  The fact that the term Genocide wasn't yet invented in 1750 doesn't make the act any less Genocidal though.  Once that you grasp that what was done was Genocide, you get a better understanding of what is being done NOW, which is not Ancient History.  It's the same story, with different weapons.

RE

I think you are intentionally missing Eddie's point.

If I read him correctly, he is talking about the attitudes people had. Historical revisionism, or judging behavior of people several generations back by today's standards. As Eddie has adduced in past post, people on the frontier were locked in a battle for survival with a foe who was utterly foreign to them, utterly savage and implacably opposed to ceding their property to the whites. Natives were subhuman to them, and the whites wanted them gone, the quickest way ain't fast enough. And that was the prevailing wisdom. Phil Sheridan spoke for millions of his fellow countrymen.

Same story today.

ISIS Muslims are now the Foe who is Utterly Foreign, Utterly Savage, and Implacably Opposed to ceding their Oil to the Western Happy Motorists.  They are considered Subhuman by just about everyone in the West, including Clint Eastwood and his American Sniper.  Happy motorists would like them gone, and the Quicker the Better, preferably with Nukes Glazing over the entire neighborhood.  That's the prevailing Wisdom here.

Am I missing something with this analogy?

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Offline Eddie

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Re: Boomer Doomers
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2015, 09:04:50 PM »
UT OH. Was that an angry and hateful question? YOU mentioned non assimilation. Unlike yourself, I smoke absolutely nothing. Karpatok

I just found your comment to be a non sequitur, given the thread. Yes, i do understand that genocide has been perpetrated agains Muslims in some parts of the world, but they don't seem to be in danger of becoming extinct. They are the fastest growing religious/ethnic group on the earth at this moment, I believe.

What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline Eddie

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Re: Boomer Doomers
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2015, 09:17:15 PM »
Am I missing something with this analogy?

I think you're reaching a bit far to make the analogy. The ISIS terrorists/freedom fighters are not aboriginal people. They have iPhones. Their numbers are swelling while ours are dwindling. By 2030 one person in three on the planet will be Muslim.
What makes the desert beautiful is that somewhere it hides a well.

Offline RE

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Re: Boomer Doomers
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2015, 09:24:52 PM »
Back in 1815 Amerika, the Common Wisdom was:

"The only Good Indian is a DEAD Indian"

Today in 2015 Amerika, the Common Wisdom is:

"The only Good Muslim is a DEAD Muslim".

Baron Bodissey on Gates of Vienna sells that spin on the Blogosphere all the time, John McCain sells it in CONgress too.

The more things change, the more they remain the same.

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Offline RE

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Re: Boomer Doomers
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2015, 09:28:53 PM »
By 2030 one person in three on the planet will be Muslim.

By 2030, one person in three on the planet will be DEAD.

Not all Muslims, but I will bet they take the biggest hit here, given the neighborhood most of them inhabit.

Climate Change is even better than Smallpox Blankets for Eradication.  ::)

RE
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